Need help with Custom Wiring !

[yamadron]

Hello Guitar Nuts,

I've been weeks now, trying to figure out how my custom wiring could be done. I've asked into may forums. But no answer till now.

So this place is the my final station to stop by.

Well, lets start....

I'd by using a H H H form
(2 Full humbuckers in Bridge and Neck, and 1 mini humbucker in the middle position)

I'd be using a Fender 5way 4P5T superswitch and a Dimarzio 500 Kohm Push/Pull pot as Volume pot.


Neck Humbucker: D-Activator X Neck (300mV)
Middle mini Humbucker : Dimarzio Chopper (260mV)
Bridge Humbucker: Dimarzio X2N* (510mV)

*The Dimarzio X2N is in inverted position

I'd like to have to it like that
*When the Pot is pushed down, it forms Humbuckers Mode:

1. Full Neck Humbucker (Series)
2. Full Neck Humbucker (Parallel)
3. Full Middle Mini Humbucker (Series)
4. Full Bridge Humbucker (Parallel)
5. Full Bridge Humbucker (Series)


When it's pulled up, It activates Singles Mode:

1. Humbucker in Neck Coil Tapped (Series)
2. Humbucker in Neck + Humbucker Middle Coil tapped (Series) (Hum-Cancelling)
3. Humbucker in Middle Coil Tapped (Series)
4. Humbucker in Bridge + Humbucker Middle Coil tapped (Series) (Hum-Cancelling)
5. Humbucker in Bridge Coil Tapped (Series)


Image:



I don't know if that is possible in the first place. I know how to wire it if Positions 2 and 4 (Pot is pushed down: Humbucker Mode) are connected in series and Not Parallel. connected, But i found that the mini humbucker output is weak compared to the neck in Position 2 and Bridge in position 4. So I decided to fill those 2 positions by connecting neck in parallel in Position 2 and bridge in parallel in position 4. That is using only a DPDT switch without a need to 5 way 4P5T superswitch.

That is all..

Guys, all my hopes are on counting on you..

Thanks a lot

[newey]

yamadron-

Since this is your first post here, although you've been a member for a while:

Hello and welcome!

A few months back, we had a similar inquiry regarding what I call "progressive coil switching", similar to what you've requested. This is similar to the switching Ibanez uses in many guitars.

I came up with this schematic, using a superswitch and a DPDT. This isn't exactly what you want, but it may provide a starting point for discussion and/or your modification thereof.



The thread where this discussion is found is here:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=4506

Also recognize that, while my diagram has been vetted, we haven't heard back from onederboy as to whether it was successfully built.

[sumgai]

ron,

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!

I hate to be a naywayer, but I don't think this is gonna happen the way you envisioned it.

The trouble comes about because you want series in what would otherwise be the standard Strat combinations (your tapped configurations). There simply aren't enough poles on any kind of 5-way switch that can handle that seemingly simple request, let alone handle switching from series to parallel for two of the pickups. (Well, there is a Schaller Megaswitch that's supposed to have eight (8) poles, but none of us here has seen one yet.)

Now for another possible circuit, one that would be a compromise for you, as is newey's circuit above, let me refer you to this, the final circuit that came about after a lot of discusison: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=4411&page=6#40759

(You can read the whole thing of course, but it doesn't get down to the nitty-gritty until about almost the bottom of Page 4.) The quick summary is, it has only one HB, but that pup has a switch for ser/par just for itself. Then there's a switch that will select several combos of parallel or Middle in series with Bridge or Neck. And the funky part is, there's a Bridge Always On circuit, it's part of the 3-way toggle switch.

Obviously you can strip off whatever parts of it you don't like/need, and build up the rest.

Interestingly enough, circuits like this lend themselves to using a 4PDT toggle switch to control two Humbuckers at the same time. For your needs, I would suggest you think about this aspect, and at the same time, consider leaving the Middle Humbucker wired in series at all times (when selected, of course). Not knowing if you're interested in the push-pull for stealth reasons or what, I would also suggest that you perhaps look at a Fender S-1 setup, because it has the 4PDT switch built in to the volume control, except it's "push-push" for the on/off action. eBay usually has a couple of 'em floating around....


HTH




sumgai

[yamadron]

newey and sumgai.. Thanks for the hot welcoming to the forums. And I appreciate all your support on the way.

Yes, I will be using a 5 way superswitch (24 poles switch) and a Push/Pull Pot with DPDT of course.

@ sumgai

Yes, I know. Normally positions 2 and 4 are for Strat Combinations of Neck and Middle in Pos#2 and Bridge + Middle in Pos#4. Both are Coil Tapped.
But Won't really a 5 way super switch be enough ?

Anyway, This previous combination will be working when I pull up the pot. So I found that Positions 2 and 4 when it is pushed down will be empty.

Connecting Full Neck + Full Middle in Series on Pos#2 will produce s bad tone as well as Full Bridge + Full Middle in Pos#4, Because the humbucker in the middle is weak compared to the bridge one. I don't know if they are any good. That is my opinion. Correct me If I am wrong, please.

Well, Is having Both Neck + Bridge Humbucker possible in Position #4. I am thinking of having Full Neck + Full Bridge in Pos#4 while Coil tapped in Pos#2 but still Hum-Cancelling. I don't know how Pos#4 for this combination will sound too. It will be very powerful . So that is why I chose to connect neck alone in parallel in pos#2, same for Bridge in Pos#4. But unfortunately, you say it is impossible.

If parallel will actually cause problems and the above combination will not work, I'd like you to suggest 2 other combinations in the these positions, #2 and #4 when the pot is pushed down other that the first one I mentioned above(if it was bad). I've already told how they will act if it was pulled up.

The reason I am using a Push/Pull as you said is stealth. I am not willing for any drilling into the body.

@ newey

Thanks for the diagram. Even if it was not what I want, I always like to learn more. Especially from expert people around the forums.

I am very happy, that someone finally has replied to me after weeks of search..

Thanks a lot, ADMINS

[sumgai]

yr,

Don't think that "us admins" are the only ones here that answer queries, we're just "on the ball" so to speak, as we log in more often to monitor the Board's progress. (IOW, make sure no troublemakers show up. ) Other non-admin types will no doubt willingly offer up other suggestions. In particular, JohnH is notorious for "coloring outside of the lines" when it comes to humbuckers. Please, just hang out and chill for a bit....

In the meantime....

You said "normal" strat combos, but those are parallel, whereas your chart shows that you want them in series. (I refer of course to the "tapped" configurations.) That's the problem. If you were to let those combos be wired in parallel, then maybe we can do something, but I'd have to look much more closely before committing to that one.

Another thing, I realized that in "full" mode, you had the humbuckers on individually in pos. 1, 3 and 5, each of them in series. The parallel connections were in pos. 2 and 4. Well, what happens if you swap the parallel and series positions? I started with that idea as I sat down to the CAD machine. Sorry to say, it made no difference. What you want requires two poles per pickup, and since you have three pickups.... (BTW, the superswitch has only 4 poles, it has 24 terminals, or solder lugs.)

I get the impression that you've done some drawings already, is that correct? If so, can you post them for us, please? It always helps to see where the querant started from.




sumgai

[yamadron]

Dec 10, 2009 15:06:18 GMT -5 sumgai said:

In the meantime....

You said "normal" strat combos, but those are parallel, whereas your chart shows that you want them in series. (I refer of course to the "tapped" configurations.) That's the problem. If you were to let those combos be wired in parallel, then maybe we can do something, but I'd have to look much more closely before committing to that one.

Another thing, I realized that in "full" mode, you had the humbuckers on individually in pos. 1, 3 and 5, each of them in series. The parallel connections were in pos. 2 and 4. Well, what happens if you swap the parallel and series positions? I started with that idea as I sat down to the CAD machine. Sorry to say, it made no difference. What you want requires two poles per pickup, and since you have three pickups.... (BTW, the superswitch has only 4 poles, it has 24 terminals, or solder lugs.)

I get the impression that you've done some drawings already, is that correct? If so, can you post them for us, please? It always helps to see where the querant started from.

Well, I don't know actually, If you misunderstood me or not. But anyway, as I said before, When the pot is pushed down, In pos#2, the neck Humbucker will be in parallel. In Pos#4, the bridge will be in parallel. But when I pull up, the Neck and Middle will be coil tapped but still Hum-Cancelling. Same for pos#4, but wit the Bridge and Middle. But you told me that parallel connections won't fit in the switch.. So If there could be another available combinations in Pos#2 and #4 when the pot is pushed down, I'd gladly like to hear them. At the same time. I need to keep the Pos#1, #2, #3, #4 and #5 when the pot is pulled up like a Strat guitar.

Yea, I made a diagram with the Push/Pull Pot. Gladly I found that I can make all the Combinations I need with a Push/Pull DPDT Pot and a Strat 5 way switch. I don't guarantee that it could be 100% correct but at least, it seems to be like this from my point of view Like this:
(All Series)

Pushed Down Pot: (Humbuckers Mode)

1. Full Neck Humbucker
2. Neck + Middle Humbuckers Splited Coils (Hum-Cancelling) ##
3. Full Middle Humbucker
4. Bridge + Middle Humbuckers Splited Coils (Hum-Cancelling) ##
5. Full Bridge HUmbucker

Pulled Up Pot: (Strat Like Guitar - Singles Mode)

1. Neck Humbucker (Tapped Coiled)
2. Neck + Middle Humbuckers Splited Coils (Hum-Cancelling)
3. Middle Humbucker (Tapped Coiled)
4. Bridge + Middle Humbuckers Splited Coils (Hum-Cancelling)
5. Bridge Humbucker (Tapped Coiled)

Then as you see that both combinations marked with ## are repeated again. SO I thought of Parallel connections instead. So I figured out that I will need a 5 way superswitch.

All I hope to find a solution for those 2 positions keeping the other positions at place. I don't care much now about the combination. Any one, just not a repeated one.

Sorry for mixing poles with terminals xD

I know I may seem dumb. I am not an expert yet.

I am fixing my scanner nowdays. I could probably finish repairing
it today lately. So, I may post the diagram too late today or at early tomorrow.

Thanks a lot. I am glad that there is at least a discussion out there, instead of waiting days and days without even a single response.

Thanks again.





(EDITed by sumgai to make a quoted passage stand out as a quote.)

[newey]

YD-

I think some of my confusion (and SG's as well) is a matter of terminology. You indicate that, with the switch up, you want "Strat-like" combinations, which are parallel combinations of single coils, but then you state these are all to be in series.

If they're in series, they won't be very Strat-like.

In parallel, however, what you want can be done with the superswitch. The problem lies in what you want as far as series goes. SG is right, you'd need more poles than you have available. To switch the neck HB from series to parallel requires 2 poles; to do the bridge HB from series to parallel requires another 2 poles That's all 4 that you have right there- and you haven't switched the middle pickup in/out.

If your goal is to keep a stock appearance, more flexibility might be available if you would be willing to use 2 push/pull pots, or as SG suggests, one S-1 switch.

We'll await your diagram and go from there.

[yamadron]

OH MY GOD... Sir, Are you sure that they are connected in Parallel ?.. All the 5 positions, not in series I am a total idiot

Well if all of them are connected in parallel, yea then the idea won't succeed at all. But why in diagrams, they say for position 2 and 4 are strat like sound in H S H combinations and they are connected in series and you are saying the opposite ?
I became confused too ....

Here goes my diagram on the old thoughts .. I guess.. Seems no longer working
**Bare with me about the stupid way of wiring.**




Bigger Size version: www.speedyshare.com/files/19728981/Picture_001.bmp


Well if that how it goes, then what you mean is when I pull up, all singles should be connected in parallel not in series, but when pushed down, I want it series, so it will not work, as there is insufficient number of poles to do the job.... I see this..


What would you suggest ? I began to lose hope to have this project completed ... About the S-1, it will probably ruin the shape of the guitar as I will need 2 Fender like knobs to add and they are not good looking with Ibanez guitars. I may go with 2 Push/Pull if it may make this idea work.

Thanks a lot again !

[JohnH]

Y - id just like to point again to the design that newey posted in reply 1 above. Further down the thread that he refered to there, I posted a wiring diagram, which turned out to be particulary systematic for wiring, hence not hard to build. It uses a superswitch and a two pole toggle. THis was an on-on-on type to get all your series,simgle and parallel combos - all you want and a few more. If you prefer to use push/pulls, you could have (with a small change to teh diagram) two push/pulls, one to select single or two coil operation, the other to select series or parallel when in two coil mode.

Just a thought
J

[yamadron]

newey suggested using 2 Push/Pulls. I completely agree with this. But I want to know how it will work. What do It do when I pull up tone and when I pull up volume and when I pull up both. SO the idea could be clear in my mind. ..

You said that one to switch between single coil or 2 coils mode and one for series or parallel when in 2 coils mode.

So if I assigned the Volume to switch between Single coil or 2 coils mode and if I assigned the tone for series or parallel, thus,

Volume Down : Humbucker Mode
Volume Up : Singles Mode
Tone Down : Series Connection
Tone Up : Parallel Connection.

What if I pulled both up. What will I get ? Singles in Parallel ? or nothing ? You just said "Series/Parallel when in 2 coils - Humbucker - mode"

I'd like more clarification please. I liked your idea.

I will like to have a clear idea about the 5 positions too.. because I become confused. I think that there will be some useless combinations for me. But if it is the only way using Push/Pull pots and 5 way superswitch, it is very welcomed.

Thanks

[JohnH]

Heres how the design coudl work:

You have three pickups, each with 2 coils, numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

The five way switch selects, coils 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, moving from bridge to neck. - in series if both push/pulls are in

Pull, say, the tone knob, and the cobinations change to 5 single coils: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. In this case, pulling the volume knob as well does nothing

but if tone knob is in, pulling the volume knob changes the selected pairs from series to parallel

John

[yamadron]

Thanks a lot of the clarification. That makes sense now.

I'd like the volume to control humbucker/single mode, while tone controls series/parallel. Could be that a problem ?

When Both are down, I will get position 2 and 4 are hum-cancelling for sure, right ?

Well, I will say something for example. Tone is down (Humbucker/Single) and Volume is up (Series/Parallel). Now Singles are activated. Why pulling the the Volume won't turn them to parallel connection ? Or because we are using singles alone, they will be very weak ?

I see that Humbucker Mode can go series or parallel, but
singles mode can only go series, not parallel as I concluded. Why ?

It is confusing a bit. It is the first time, I see these combinations.

If I am working on my way, Volume (Hum/Single), Tone (Series/Parallel)

Would it be like that ?

V down /T down : Humbucker / Series
V up /T down : Single / Series
V down /T up : Humbucker / Parallel
V up / T up : Single / Parallel ??

But it is very good way to achieve lots of combinations. I completely agree on your idea

Many Many Thanks

[newey]

YD-

Parallel wiring of guitar pickups is the rule, series wiring is the exception- because it's more complicated, and simple equals cheap when one is in the business of mass producing things.

Other than special models like Fender's Baja tele or the S-1 equipped Strats, Fender has always wired their pickups in parallel. On HB equipped guitars, the 2 coils of the HB are usually wired to together in series- but then the HB as a whole is wired in parallel to the other HB, in most 2-HB guitars like LPs and SGs.

Series wiring is mostly left to Nutz like us!

I have viewed your diagram, and there are several problems- in short, it won't do what you want it to. Let's mentally put that aside for the moment. Let's go back to the basics here.

You said:

I think that there will be some useless combinations for me

Which combos are must-haves for you? Which ones would be useless, maybe they can be eliminated?

I suggested 2 push/pulls because I was thinking that would be the minimum switching you would need to get close to what you want- I didn't really have a clear wiring scheme in mind. But JohnH apparently does- and it sounds like it has most of what you want.

Just in general, I think you will find there are 2 basic approaches in using a superswitch to get the kinds of combos you want. Some diagrams use a p/p to split the superswitch in half, 2 poles on a side, so that pulling up the p/p switches from one set of 5 functions to another set of 5. This is often called a "mode switch" since it switches the superswitch between 2 separate modes. Of course, what you wire for each side can occupy no more than 2 poles.

The other basic approach used is to reserve the superswitch for switching between various combos of the neck and bridge only, and switching the middle pickup in/out with the p/p pots. This is called the "middle on" scheme, and it has numerous variants putting the mid pup in series/parallel with the 5-way switch selection, or coil cut.
However, adding several p/p pots can make things a bit "switchy" for stage use; many giggers prefer to have the 5 way give them some mid selections for ease of use.

EDIT: Also, I think you may want to rethink the idea of splitting the middle pickup. The mid pickup is overwhelmed by the neck and bridge humbuckers, you stated. If so, one coil of the mid pup will be likewise overwhelmed by one coil of the neck or bridge, since the coils are so small in those SC-sized humbuckers.

I would be tempted to mate the whole mid pup, in series or parallel HB mode, with one coil from either the neck or bridge HB- I think that's more likely to equalize things. If a "Middle On" scheme is used, a separate Vol control for that pickup is often used so the levels can be evened out.

[yamadron]

Ya know.. I actually began to love Nutz people. They do the complicated stuff xD .. I am very happy now.

Ok.. Here is the main needs for me:

For Humbuckers: Full Humbucker in Neck, Full Humbucker in middle, Full Humbucker in Bridge, with positions 1, 3, 5 respectively from Neck to Bridge.. in Series for each Humbucker ofc.

For Singles, I needed to have a Strat Like guitar, but as you said, everything is needed to be parallel connected for Strat sound, so if it is still possible, It would be fine. If there is still some empty positions, I won't mind any suggestions. Actually having Humbuckers in Parallel was just an idea to fill out the empty positions. That is all..!

I don't mind having 2 Push/Pull pots, if it will solve the problem. It is not for stage anyway

Thanks a TON !

EDIT : I thought that too, but when the full humbucker is used, not the single coils of each.

Dimarzio stated here:
" The X2N® works best in combination with higher-output pickups. It can also combine well with the Fast Track 1™, Chopper™ and Pro Track™. The split option is very effective, because a single X2N® coil has similar performance parameters to many Strat-type pickups."

So that is why I though of it .. And it seems you are right. It seems better to use the whole SC-Sized Humbucker with the single coils of the humbuckers to equalize things. But how they will be hum-cancelling. There will be 3 coils working at a time.

Moreover from Dimarzio : Humbucker - Single (HumCancelling) - Humbucker Diagram:

"One reason the 3-pickup humbucker-single-humbucker setup is popular is because of the Stratlike
sound of the 2nd and 4th switch positions. Because these positions utilize 1 coil from the neck
or bridge humbucker and the single-coil in the center, they are humcancelling. If there is also a
humcancelling pickup like a Virtual Vintage® model in the middle position, it becomes necessary
to turn off the bottom coil of the middle pickup as well as one coil from the outside humbucker"

So....

Will I need another Volume Pot ? That will be a disaster for me, ya know !..

I know that you become to be annoyed from me.. Sorry for that.. Really sorry !

[sumgai]

yd,

First, some terminology:

Humbucking is where two coils cancel out the hum, but produce a tone from the strings. They can be wired in either parallel or series, the only difference will be the tone itself - the hum will still be cancelled out.

When hooking up the two coils of one humbucker pickup, we're wiring them "locally". When hooking up two (or more) pickups, we're wiring them "globally". This applies whether we use parallel, series, or some combination of the two methods. Note that we may, or may not, get humbucking operation here, it depends on the pickups themselves.

When a pickup is made, it has an orientation - the winding is in a certain direction, and the magnets face a certain way. In order achieve hum cancelling, we need to reverse that orientation on the other pickup. Such pickups are called RWRP - reverse wound, reverse polarity. Let me repeat, it doesn't matter if you connect two coils or two pickups in parallel or series, but to get humbucking, one of them must be RWRP with respect to the other.

Which brings us to your dilemma. Dimarzio is somewhat correct - when you have 3 coils, two of them is going to be wound the same, and facing in the same magnetic direction, and the RWRP coil will be able to cancel out hum by interacting with only one of those coils. Your question is valid - what happens with that other coil?

It turns out that there's another variable to think about, and that is, field strength. If two of the coils combined together are about the same strength as the 3rd coil, then the hum will be nearly cancelled. How much nearly? Hard to tell exactly how much, but let's say that it will be more difficult to hear any hum, in most cases. This is part of why newey and I are suggesting that you leave the Middle pup wired with both coils at all times. It's much weaker, making it about equal to one of the coils from the Bridge or Neck pickups. The hum cancelling won't be perfect, but it will be quite good. And the tone it puts out when combined with one of the single coils from the Bridge or Neck will still be very nearly like a Strat. Not exactly like it, but close.

There's one more thing for you to think about now...... when you select a coil to hook up with another pickup's coil, you need to make sure the two are RWRP with respect to each other. If you don't get it right, then the hum will actually be upgraded to very loud, and not cancelled at all! Your problem now is, if you don't use both Middle pickup coils together, and you use the same singular coil for split (or tapped) operation, will it be RWRP with respect to the chosen coils from the Bridge and Neck pickups? If not, then you're going to be very unhappy.....

There are two solutions. One is to experiment to find which coils work well together. You may find that you need to use the coil you didn't expect, in order to achieve humcancelling. The other way is to simply use both coils of the Middle pup, as previously discussed, that'll work too.

All of that was to make you aware of something that's important, but easy to miss, that's all. Because there are many humbucker designs, there is no sure way to guarantee to you that "Diagram XYZ" is absolutely correct - there may be a "surprise" waiting for you after you've wired it up and start playing.   Which is why we tell you "you may need to experiment a bit" before you put all your tools away.

As to your current design choices, I'll let you, John and newey discuss things for awhile. If I see something I can help with, I'll step in, have no fear. ;D

HTH




sumgai

[newey]

My rather long-winded post above sat in preview mode for awhile before I posted it- eating dinner intervened.

So I hadn't read JohnH's weigh-in on the topic. But I like his idea.

[yamadron]

This lesson was quite useful. I know most of what you've said, but some aspects were completely wrong.

Well. It seems good to use both coils combined with one coil with the neck or bridge. But, as you know We want to make the 2 coils of the humbucker in the middle Hum-Cancelling in Pos3 and that is not hard. The question now is; you said:

It turns out that there's another variable to think about, and that is, field strength. If two of the coils combined together are about the same strength as the 3rd coil, then the hum will be nearly cancelled.

SO that means in the split positions, I will want to have both coils of the middle humbucker with the same polarity, so both can cancel hum with the reversed polarity of either bridge split coil or neck split coil. Is that right ?

I made a small painting to illusrate what I mean.. Will this work ? Did that what you mean ?


All positions are Hum Cancelling

1. Full Neck Humbucker
2. Neck South split coil + Full Middle Humbucker
3. Full Middle Humbucker
4. Bridge North split coil + Full Middle Humbucker
5. Full Bridge Humbucker

I am agreeing in the idea. It seems good, so I think that we can proceed from this point..

Also something to consider, the neck pickup is just 300 mV and the SC-sized humbucker is 260mV, Won't spliting the neck coil while using both coils of the Middle Humbucker will make the middle humbucker more powerful than the Neck when splitted ? The Bridge is powerful enough to split with the middle ( 2 coils together), but the neck ?

I'll leave anything about wiring now, till we manage how to get all positions hum-cancelling ?

After, we figure out the best positions, I think we could go with wiring

Thanks a lot guys. All 3 of you.. ;D

[JohnH]

Y - unfortunately a pickup with two coils of the same polarity does not exist, there's always a north and a south. But this is not a problem, you just set all three pickups facing the same way, and now the coils are all alternately N. S, N, S, N, S, so any adjacent pair is hum canceling.

In case we are talking about the same thing, this is the wiring I'm referring to in my contributions above:



Its as hum canceling as possible. If you had three equal pups, it would be fully humcancelling in all the two-coil combinations (series or parallel). Since your pickups are different, it will be only partly humcancelling in positions 2 and 4, but I think that will be fine and its as good as you can do. After all, the single coil positions are not hum canceling at all, but yet they are still very usable on Strats as they would be here.

If this is the way you want to go, we need to adjust this diagram to suit the wire colours from your Dimarzio pickups instead of Seymour Duncan, and also add the second switch. Is this the right idea?

cheers

John

[sumgai]

ron,

I don't know whether to Exalt you for managing to make my brain hurt, or to Smite you for doing so! Well, since your name isn't kyle is in my head.....

You're catching on, and catching up to the rest of us quite quickly. But as John points out, there's no way to make a humbucker into a pair of exactly-the-same coils.... you can't make both coils suddenly appear to be wound in the same direction, and you can't physically reverse the magnet. If you do one (the coil wiring), you lose that coil's RWRP characteristic for the whole pickup, and that's definitely not what you want. Better to leave it alone.

You're thinking that you'll match the output of the Middle pup to that of just one coil from the Bridge (or the Neck) and make those RWRP, but that's not necessary. As I see it, using the full output of the stock Middle pickup will balance nicely with the single coil from the other pickup. The hum cancelling effect will be in the range of 50%, but it might be a bit better than that, or a bit worse. There will be some humcancelling, make no mistake, but again as John points out, the hum won't be as bad as using just one coil all by itself (as found in nearly all Strats and Teles).

Since it has yet to be mentioned here in this thread, now would be a good time to "remind" you that shielding will take care of nearly all humming and buzzing issues you may experience. For that reason, I'd like to suggest that you try to keep things simple, and not over-compensate for possible problems before they occur. This is especially true when there are other solutions that work as well or even better than what you've been contemplating.

IOW, let's try to take one thing at a time, and build up from there, that's all I'm saying here.

Let me comment on John's diagram...... It does give you almost everything you wanted, except the Neck's two coils in parallel (ditto the Bridge), but you were inserting them only as filler, to avoid duplicate combinations. I think if you work this out in your head, you'll find that you have a lot of differing tones, that you'll be taking advantage of each pickup's full capabilities, and yet you use only those parts you've already specified, a superswitch and a standard push-pull pot. Please, tell us what you think of John's circuit before we go much further.

HTH




sumgai

[JohnH]

Dec 11, 2009 15:13:26 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Let me comment on John's diagram...... It does give you almost everything you wanted, except the Neck's two coils in parallel (ditto the Bridge),


sumgai

I reckon those sounds are in there too! - the only missing one out of the sweep of adjacent coils is one out of five of the single coil options. All adjacent pairs of two coils are provided for.

J

[yamadron]

sumgai

I really don't want you to be annoyed from me to that limit. Actually my real name is "David". You can call me "Dave" instead, if "Yamadron" is really annoying for you. I'm not managing to hurt your brain, I am just explaining how I understand things, if they are wrong, You can correct it for me. I apologize for that.

It is fine for me. I just thought that it is available to have both coils with same polarity so they can cancel hum with the 3rd coil. However, as it is impossible. It's 100% OK.

I thought of that too, but again as you said, if it is not a problem and there will be hum-cancelling. It is OK.

Hmmm, OK, lets keep it is simple.

Yes, I thought of that parallel connection for both Neck and Bridge humbuckers at positions 2 and 4 to just respectively to just fill the empty positions and not to have duplicate tones at the same time. Actually to be honest, I started to like the idea of having all available tones from my humbuckers using a superswitch and 2 P/P pots. As it is possible now, I'd like to include them for sure

If this wiring, will give me all the what John has mentioned before using 2 Push/Pulls. I completely agree and I'd go from here.


JohnH
But just one thing, John you has said:

Dec 11, 2009 14:05:50 GMT -5 JohnH said:

The five way switch selects, coils 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, moving from bridge to neck

And here we say to make things balanced, we will need coils 2,3,4 in position 2 and 3,4,5 in pos4.

Did you include that in this diagram, or the diagram is build on your previous idea, before we say to have a split coil with the full middle humbucker ?

Well, as we will add a second P/P pot too. I'd like to have Volume P/P for (Single/Humb) and Tone P/P pot for (Series/Parallel).

Dec 11, 2009 14:05:50 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Since your pickups are different, it will be only partly humcancelling in positions 2 and 4, but I think that will be fine and its as good as you can do. After all, the single coil positions are not hum canceling at all, but yet they are still very usable on Strats as they would be here.

Strat guitars are not hum-cancelling in Positions 1,3 and 5. You have included that already in the combinations, right ?

At positions 2 and 4 and as sumgai also told me, It is fine not to have a perfect hum-cancelling. Partial Hum-Cancelling is fine.

That is great. That is what I want. I am agreeing on your 2 push/pull idea with all their combinations. I want it now

BTW, what is the missing single coil option ?

That is all...

I'd go from this point.

Thanks..

[newey]

yamadron-

I really don't want you to be annoyed from me to that limit. Actually my real name is "David". You can call me "Dave" instead, if "Yamadron" is really annoying for you. I'm not managing to hurt your brain, I am just explaining how I understand things, if they are wrong, You can correct it for me. I apologize for that.

I don't want to speak for SG, but he's not annoyed with you, he was being humorous. No apologies needed, as I'm sure he would tell you himself (and he probably will, too .

Understand, too, that when I speak of using both coils of the middle to balance better with one of the full-sized HB coils, I'm speaking in general terms. Your particular coils may be close enough in output so that it doesn't matter much, or as Sumgai notes, you may be able to compensate for it by raising the mid a bit closer to the strings, or by lowering the full-size HBs or both. Or, to be really sure you can dial in the mid sound you want, you could add a volume for the mid, replacing one of the 2 tone controls (this isn't quite as simple as it sounds, but it is doable.

If you really want to do the single coils with the mid pup, don't let me scare you off- It was an issue I thought you should consider, but that doesn't mean there's a right way or wrong way to do it.

As JohnH points out, his scheme does provide for full humbucking all the way through. However, this will be true for sure only if the coils of all three pups are identically oriented (N,S,N,S . . .)- which they probably are. But since the middle pup is different, there may have to be some luck involved, unless you test the coils first to be sure of their orientation. This can be easily done before you mount the new pickups

[yamadron]

Thanks newey, that makes me feel better

Well, I think that I can have that orientation N S, N S, N S.

Why there could be a problem ? I know what is the orientation of the Dimarzio pickups. Where is the north and where is the south. Why may they reverse it from a pickup to the other ? Aslo, I think they have provided a way to reverse the phase of the pickup. (is that have something to do with the polarity ?)

Also balancing by raising the pickup to the strings or lowering them should not be a problem for me too.



Unfortunately, my guitar has just 1 tone and 1 volume pots.

yea, the middle one is weaker, but as SG said, It will be fine. Yes not perfect hum-cancelling, but is still better than having no hum-cancelling at all in these 2 positions. I hope John has an idea to let one coil from either neck or bridge humbuckers to be combined with the full Middle Humbucker, regardless of the perfect hum-cancelling at pos #2 & #4

Thanks

[JohnH]

Dec 11, 2009 16:07:20 GMT -5 yamadron said:

JohnH
But just one thing, John you has said:

Dec 11, 2009 14:05:50 GMT -5 JohnH said:

The five way switch selects, coils 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, moving from bridge to neck

And here we say to make things balanced, we will need coils 2,3,4 in position 2 and 3,4,5 in pos4.

Did you include that in this diagram, or the diagram is build on your previous idea, before we say to have a split coil with the full middle humbucker ?

Well, as we will add a second P/P pot too. I'd like to have Volume P/P for (Single/Humb) and Tone P/P pot for (Series/Parallel).

Dec 11, 2009 14:05:50 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Since your pickups are different, it will be only partly humcancelling in positions 2 and 4, but I think that will be fine and its as good as you can do. After all, the single coil positions are not hum canceling at all, but yet they are still very usable on Strats as they would be here.

Strat guitars are not hum-cancelling in Positions 1,3 and 5. You have included that already in the combinations, right ?

At positions 2 and 4 and as sumgai also told me, It is fine not to have a perfect hum-cancelling. Partial Hum-Cancelling is fine.

That is great. That is what I want. I am agreeing on your 2 push/pull idea with all their combinations. I want it now

BTW, what is the missing single coil option ?

That is all...

I'd go from this point.

Thanks..

THeres only two coils at a time in this scheme - not three.

The diagram is currently drawn with a three position toggle, which I can change to two push/pulls. Of the six posible single coil sounds, it does all except one of the neck coils. That is not a problem, it will sound almost the same as the other neck coil.

Honestly, this scheme should do what you want.

However, just be aware that it is a new scheme, you will be the first to test it. Youll get plenty of support here if you do, but you are the one holding the soldering iron. So looking at the wiring diagram, do you feel that you can build it? If so, Ill revise it, adding a tone and volume control too.

John

[yamadron]

Well, actually I am not the one who is holding the soldering iron. It is an friend of mine who is experienced with soldering and electronics as well. He'll be using 15W soldering iron. I'd like ofc, that you can revise it, adding the new Volume P/P pot and Tone P/P pots as well and modifying it with 5 way switch not 3 toggle switch as you said. That will help me to guide him where to solder. Just be sure that Volume Pot is for (Single/Hum) and Tone for (Series/Parallel)

A final revision : Need to be sure before I proceed much further.

V down /T down : Humbucker / Series
V up /T down : Single / Series
V down /T up : Humbucker / Parallel
V up / T up : Single / Parallel -- or there is no combination like that ?





Also what is the black lines in the middle of the lugs ?Are these jumper wires ?

Aslo, if you can re- colour the wires to match dimarzio's. If you don't want, just tell me the colors here that matches dimarzio colors

Dec 11, 2009 17:20:46 GMT -5 JohnH said:

THeres only two coils at a time in this scheme - not three.

Me, SG and Newey were discussing the problem of having coils 2 & 3 , 4 & 5 together. The splited coils 3 and 4 will be weak as 2 will overwhelm 3 and 5 will overwhelm 4.

I don't know if you have a solution for this... If you returned back a bit, you will see the discussion about this.

About the missing south coil in the single coil mode in the neck, it is not a problem..

[JohnH]

Just be sure that Volume Pot is for (Single/Hum) and Tone for (Series/Parallel)

Yes

A final revision : Need to be sure before I proceed much further.

V down /T down : Humbucker / Series
V up /T down : Single / Series
V down /T up : Humbucker / Parallel
V up / T up : Single / Parallel -- or there is no combination like that ?

Almost, it would be like this:

1. V down /T down : Humbucker / Series - as normal for humbuckers = normal position. In positions 2 and 4 you get coils from two adjacent pups, in series.

2. V up /T down : Single - there's only one coil selected at a time on this setting, so theres no series - because series wiring needs at least two coils - you get 5 single coil sounds

3. V down /T up : Humbucker / Parallel In setting 3, it includes all parallel combos of adjacent coils, so positions 2 and 4 are a bit like those on a Strat, being a single from each of two pups

4. V up / T up : Single - its the same as setting number 2

So your default position is both knobs in with the normal humbucker coils-in-series settings, pull tone to change to humbucker parallel, or pull volume to change to single coil.

Dont worry - this is a cool scheme! Its gonna be great and I think you will like it

John

ps The fine black lines are wire links
pps Where in the world are you?

[newey]

YD-

Well, I think that I can have that orientation N S, N S, N S.

Why there could be a problem ? I know what is the orientation of the Dimarzio pickups. Where is the north and where is the south. Why may they reverse it from a pickup to the other ? Aslo, I think they have provided a way to reverse the phase of the pickup. (is that have something to do with the polarity ?)

You're probably right, there may not be a problem. But with different pickups, even from the same manufacturer, there are no guarantees the coils will be oriented the same on all three.

Reversing the phase of the pickup is the electrical equivalent of reversing the windings on the pickup. This makes the pickup "reverse wound" (designated "RW").

"Polarity" refers to the magnets in the pickups- meaning which end is the North pole of the magnet versus the South pole. Magnetic polarity can only be reversed by flipping the magnets 180°, and doing that usually involves some amount of dismembering of the pickup, not so easy to do. Reversing the polarity is designated "RP".

To be hum-cancelling, one coil must be both reverse wound as well as reverse polarity ("RWRP") with respect to the other coil with which it is being combined. Changing only one of the two variables, for example, reversing the wiring but not reversing the magnets, will not result in hum-cancellation.

Each HB has one coil RWRP with respect to the other coil of that HB. However, with different pickups, one's N coil may be next to the other's N coil. Meaning the adjacent 2 coils might not be humbucking.

You can check your particular pickups to see which coils are RWRP, thus ensuring you get the N,S,N,S, sequence you want. You only need to check the magnetic polarity, since by definition, the coils with reverse magnetic polarity will be reverse wound as well.

Do the test by holding one coil of one pickup up to one coil of the other. Remember the rule- opposites attract!

EDIT:Also remember that the side of the pickup with the wire coming out defines the side which will be closest to the controls. Keep this orientation in mind as you do the coil testing, so that you can mentally visualize how the pickups will actually be mounted in the guitar- so you know which coils you will be combining.

If you find that, instead of N,S,N,S,N,S, you get N,S,S,N,N,S, this means the mid pups's coils are opposite the other 2 pickups. You can solve this by rotating the mid pickup 180°, but this means the wires will now be coming out of the far side of the pickup, and may need to be extended to reach the control cavity.

[JohnH]

Well this is what I think the diagram should be:



I think its OK, but would anyone care to spot-check a combination or two?

cheers

John

[yamadron]

newey

You are always benefiting me with your knowledge.

I am still new to this stuff, so I hope you can bear with me

@john

Thanks a lot for the diagram. I really liked the idea, otherwise I rejected the idea. The diagram is fully understandable too, but I have a problem now, Do I really need a 1 nF capacitor and 220K resistor for the volume pot ?

If so where I may get them ? I already have the 22.3 nF Capacitor of the old Tone pot. I am also waiting for store to get another stock of Push/Pull pots, So I may not be able to test your wiring diagram now.

As soon as I get the missing part, I will report my feedback directly

Thanks a lot John. IOU1 xD

[JohnH]

yamadron - don't worry about the 1nF and 220k resistor if you can't get them. They are not essential and you can omit them.

What they are is a treble bleed circuit. On many guitars, when you turn down the volume, the tone loses treble due to the way that the cord to the amp has a capacitance and acts like a treble reducing tine control, bleeding treble to ground. These extra parts compensate for this by sending a bit more treble through the circuit at lower volume, and I put them on all my designs.

Most commercial guitars do not have this treble-bleed circuit, and this design is not particularly needing them more than any other design. Also, they only act at reduced volume, so at full volume it makes no difference if they are there or not.

But if you do add them, they are very simple cheap parts that any electronics supplier will have.

Good luck with the wiring. In exchange for this design, when you are done, please post your feedback on how it went and what you think of the results and how it sounds - we are all learning too! Sound clips and photos are also much appreciated.

Still interested to know -where are you?

cheers

John