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Post by JohnH on Feb 9, 2010 21:13:38 GMT -5
So does that mean it all fits? thats great.!
In the meantime, Ive been plugging away at a diagram, and it is basically done - i will probably post it later today. It is based on the HHH diagram that we discussed in this thread earlier, but adapted to your HSH set up and selection requests.
Theres a couple of issues that emerged while working it out:
In any two coil combination, you want to have hum canceling. So we need to relate the polarity of your middle pup which you are keeping, with that of he new DiMarzios that you are buying. Each 2 coil combo needs a south and a north coil to achieve a humcancelling result.
So when you have all your pups together, you should place the top of the middle pup against the slug coils and the adjustable coils of your humbuckers, to see which ones attract magnetically. That will determine which way round to mount your humbuckers.
Out of that comes another issue, if we need M+Ninner and also M+Binner. In that case, Minner and Binner are the same polarity as each other, and so do not together make a humcanceling combo. Although we can wire up Binner+ Ninner, it would be better to change it to Binner + Nouter, which will sound virtually the same and be humcancelling. That is how I'm drawing it so far anyway.
Without losing humcancelling, there are probably other options, such as having M+Nouter in place of M+Ninner, and losing access to both neck single coils - i think thats OK too.
Anyway, it getting there, nearly done and will undoubtedly be a very cool axe! (although no drinking allowed within 24hours before trying to wire it up!)
cheers
John
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Feb 9, 2010 23:52:50 GMT -5
So does that mean it all fits? thats great.! In the meantime, Ive been plugging away at a diagram, and it is basically done - i will probably post it later today. It is based on the HHH diagram that we discussed in this thread earlier, but adapted to your HSH set up and selection requests. That is great Roger ,Sir John SO finally that combination is available at position 3 Not a problem, either Ninner + Bouter or Nouter + Binner. Go with what you have decided The previous option is better AS you release the diagram, I want from you that you tell me all the combination again with the diagram. I will wait for you. If I was late to feedback, Don't worry. I will provide a feedback sooner or later even if it is a PM Thank you a lot, John
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Post by JohnH on Feb 10, 2010 4:51:11 GMT -5
Ok, hopefully this should do it Since its a fairly involved wiring, I went for a more diagramatic style than I sometimes do, but you can see what is connected to what. You can then decide exacly how to run the wires according to your switch and cavity positions. To build it, I would start with the wires across lugs of the 5 way, then wire in the other controls, and connect the pickups last of all. The checks on colours and polarity for the pickups described above are still needed, but I think this diagram is OK subject to that (unless there are errors in it, which is always possible! cheers John
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Feb 10, 2010 9:04:13 GMT -5
OOH. Thanks a lot Well, just noticing one thing that the 3rd and 4th positions in the Out/Out are the same. So Is it possible in 3rd position it make it middle only ? (If you can't modify the diagram, It is not a problem) It seems applying such a diagram in a very small space will need a lot of work and cautious. Hope I can deal with it Another thing, Do I need the capacitors or they are just for that treble bleed circuit ? I can only get the 1 nF at the volume, but the 22nF seems impossible for me Also, another problem, with the old pots, there was 223K resistor connected to the tone pot. There was none with the volume pot. Here in your diagram, the volume has a 220K resistor while the tone is not. So is it possible to have that old 223K resistor and connect it to the volume ? or I just need 220K specifically ? Thanks a TON
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Post by sumgai on Feb 10, 2010 11:16:43 GMT -5
John, The red lead from the Volume 'hot' goes to a different terminal on the Tone control than I would use. Then again, since you and mclord are both south of the Equator, then perhaps that's how they normally do things down there..... sumgai
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Feb 10, 2010 12:33:18 GMT -5
@john, something I have noticed about the Stewmac superswitch Terminal assignment: There are a total of 24 solder terminals (lugs) on this switch. The switch is divided into four separate circuits, or poles, and each pole has six lugs. Lug “0” is the “common” which is connected to other lugs depending on the lever’s position. The five other terminals on each pole correspond to the five positions of the switch. Lug #1 = position 1, Lug #2 = position 2, etc. Many lever switches use the commons as outputs for the switch, but with this switch this is not necessarily going to be the case. The commons of this switch can be used to connect pickups together in ways not possible with other switches. This is an important concept to understand when designing custom wiring for this switch. So, Does that switch really differ from the others and will your diagram work with any brand of a 24 lug superswitch ? sumgaihahaha It depends where John lives in Australia. Not all of the Australia continent is in the Southern Hemisphere of the Earth John, Tell sumgai how stuff are accomplished down here ;D
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Post by JohnH on Feb 10, 2010 14:59:04 GMT -5
Thankyou for studying the diagram OOH. Thanks a lot Well, just noticing one thing that the 3rd and 4th positions in the Out/Out are the same. So Is it possible in 3rd position it make it middle only ? (If you can't modify the diagram, It is not a problem) That is true. the out/out does not provide any new sounds, hence I greyed it out, and the 3rd position is as shown. It is because when you pull the tone knob, it replaces No with M, so that you can have it there in the in/out setting. So in out/out, you get M+Bi. I was hoping to get the out/outs to be just single coils in which case it would be like in/out, but I think Id need another switch pole and they are now all used up! ......and welcome to Guitarnutz!! The 220k and 1nF cap on the volume pot is for treble bleed, to keep your tone more consistent as you roll down the volume. These are optional and most guitars do not have them. You can leave them off if you do not find this to be a problem. This guitar is no more needing these parts than any other with humbuckers, though I put them on all of mine. The 22nF cap is just a standard tone cap, maybe better known as 0.022 microFarads. You can use the cap that you have if you wish, the value is a matter of choice but is not too critical. The 223K = 22k? resistor that you have on the tone pot is maybe so treble is not entrirely killed at minimum tone, so you can more easily find a mellow tone that is not dead. If so, it is unusual but not a bad idea - you can add that here if you like it. Actually, is it definately a resistor? those numbers also seem consistent with it being your tone capacitor. Sumgai is right about the tone pot - the hot wire should go to the other outer lug - Ill fix that next time I post the diagram, when you have got your pickups tested and we check the orientation and colours. Also, I noticed I missed two wires that should go on the right side of the tone pot switch, to do the coil cut. The superswitch is fine, the diagram assumes lugs laid out like that - the coloured outer ones on the diagram are the poles. It is true that not all of Australia is in the Southern Hemisphere, a large part of it exists in the pubs around Earls Court in London. John
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Post by mclord on Feb 10, 2010 16:58:55 GMT -5
Thankyou for studying the diagram That is true. the out/out does not provide any new sounds, hence I greyed it out, and the 3rd position is as shown. It is because when you pull the tone knob, it replaces No with M, so that you can have it there in the in/out setting. So in out/out, you get M+Bi. I was hoping to get the out/outs to be just single coils in which case it would be like in/out, but I think Id need another switch pole and they are now all used up! Just if you can add switch the 3rd position in Out/Out to M only could be good. It could be a mix of Parallel combinations with a Single in the middle. Just if you can Thanks a lot SO that means I can remove the 220K resistance from the tone pot and replace it on the Volume pot ? Seesm the whole world works the same. Either North or South ;D Good to hear ! OK.. then You can keep working on other stuff, and never mind to the new correct diagram till I reply to you that I got the parts Thanks !
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Post by newey on Feb 10, 2010 17:11:36 GMT -5
MCL-
What John is indicating is that you can't have that, at least not without adding a switch. The Bi X No, and Bi+ No, dictate that you can't get the middle only with both knobs up.
It could be done, but then you'd have the B X N settings at a different position on the 5-way switch, and that change would then dictate other changes to the order of things.
Bottom line, you're at the limit of possibilities with 2 P/P pots- you can't really add anything without taking something else away, since all poles are used up.
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Post by mclord on Feb 10, 2010 18:21:23 GMT -5
Yay... Ok no problem, I will not use the Out/Out anyway. All the Other combinations are the most important for me. So it is not a problem at all
Thanks for the clarifications
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Post by JohnH on Feb 11, 2010 3:34:52 GMT -5
Just an update to fix the issues noted before: John
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Post by norumba on Mar 21, 2010 12:59:00 GMT -5
just joined up on the forum, as i was also looking for HSH wiring options on the net and ran across this... Thank you John for coming up with this, its very genrous to share your time and effort! although ive been playing for 30 years, im absolute noob when it comes to wiring, lol... learning a lot, but this makes my head explode! This is really really close to what id like with th exception of the number 3 postion id rather be No and Bo, to get a more Tele-like tone. Is that possible without jacking up everything else? what are the hum cancelling implications for the rest of the wiring, or would a simple phase switch in here some where do this? thanks
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Post by JohnH on Mar 21, 2010 14:13:33 GMT -5
Hi norumba, welcome to GN2 and thankyou for your interest in this circuit.
Although the wiring could be changed to get the outer coils in position 3, without affecting the other settings, the result if the pickups were as shown would not be humcancelling. Another way would be to wire it just as shown, but then physically place the bridge pup rotated 180 degrees, so that bridge inner and outer positions are swapped in position, but not changed electrically in the circuit. THis would also affect position 4, but it would all still be fine.
When mclord was getting ready to try this, there were still some checks to make on his actual pickups, described in the thread. That would stil be required for you, basically, to find out the polarity of your middle pup in realtion to the other coils.
cheers John
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norumba
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Post by norumba on Mar 21, 2010 15:42:44 GMT -5
thanks for the clarification.... i got a hold of a used HSH set of Dimarzio Breeds pulled straight from an Ibanez.
Their standard 5 way wiring is 1 Neck 2 Ni and M 3 Mi 4 M and Bi 5 Bridge
which would indicate (if i understand correctly) that the inner coils in both B and N are hum cancelling in relation to the middle, so that would presnt an issue to use the outer coils...
unless you fliiped both humbuckers and went with outer coils instead of inners for your 2 and 4 positions... If that helps resolve the issue, then I guess the question is what tonal differences on could expect between using inner or outer coils with the mid pickup. Any experience with that tonal variation?
on the other hand , i dont think i would need all the single coil variations as listed in the third row.
I dont want to hijack this thread, i know it seems pretty focused on where its going; would this hSH version 2 be better moved to a new thread?
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Post by newey on Mar 21, 2010 16:58:08 GMT -5
Norumba-
Hello and Welcome!
No real hijack, since we're still discussing the same basic scheme. And McLord has his diagram and is presumably off wiring it up, since we haven't heard back from him in over a month. So no need for a new thread, although you can certainly start one if it suits you to do so.
Assuming that both HB coils are identically wound, as they usually (but not always) are, then the only tonal difference in flipping the pups will come from the slight difference in the location of the coil along the length of the string. At the neck, it's not likely that the difference would be noticeable, at the bridge there will be a difference, but slight.
Merely changing the phase of a coil won't make it humbucking, you would also have to flip the magnets as well. This can be done on some HBs, depending on how they're constructed- but it's not an operation for the faint of heart since it involves dismembering the pup to a certain extent.
If you don't want the single coil sounds, things could be simplified. Notice that the push/pull on the tone pot gives SC sounds in one position, but duplicates settings in the other. So, you could simply eliminate the push/pull pot on the tone control. This would give you just the settings listed in the first 2 columns of the table shown in JohnH's diagram.
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norumba
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Post by norumba on Mar 21, 2010 17:54:54 GMT -5
thanks for the welcome John and Newey! i'm surely learning a lot....
i think for the single coil variations, i wouldn't mind having Bo ( or if we rotate the bridge pickup this sound would actually remain Bi in the wiring), No and Middle. Selecting the different humbucker coils for singles, while cool, probably is too much detail for me, considering this wont be the main guitar...
I dont know if knocking out single Ni and Bi (or Bo if pickup flipped) simplifies anything, or opens up other possibilities:
in re-reading the thread, and following the last diagram carefully, it seems there never was a way to get around full N and Br HBs at position 3. If the third column is foregone, and/or -- since i dont have to be limited to 1 tone, 1 volume, i can go with a third pot per standard layout (assuming everying fits) -- can we get full N and Br HBs , series and parralell, back into the mix?
Very , very interesting stuff, and thanks for your time to revisit this!
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Post by mclord on May 16, 2010 13:42:18 GMT -5
Norumba- Hello and Welcome! No real hijack, since we're still discussing the same basic scheme. And McLord has his diagram and is presumably off wiring it up, since we haven't heard back from him in over a month. So no need for a new thread, although you can certainly start one if it suits you to do so. Hello Newey and John. Please accept my apologizes for not replying for all this very long period. I was having a project and practical trainings plus exams as well for all the whole previous period starting from February 20th till May 16th. I just had a chance today to access my computer and reply to the forums. For the meantime, I am halting the project till the mid winter in South Africa. I will travel to UK this year for summer training at Cambridge university, so I found to it a good chance to grab the needed parts from there and avoid the 30% taxes and shipping costs of the parts. There was a lil change in the diagram but I will discuss it when I get the parts so I can work immediately with it. The Project is still in my mind and I will implement it as soon as the summer comes in UK not here ! Thank you and again accept my apologizes. norumba. No problem buddy. Relax as you want.
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Post by mclord on Aug 31, 2010 14:55:13 GMT -5
For over 6 months of halting, I am resuming my project again - I hope this time, I end the project - and resurrecting the thread. Waiting for Newey and JohnH to jump in EDIT: New modification to be done is to have nothing in Out/Out position It is as the following: In/In 1. No x Ni 2. Ni x M 3. No x Bi 4. Bi x M 5. Bo x Bi Out/In 1. No + Ni 2. Ni + M 3. No + Bi 4. Bi + M 5. Bo + Bi In/Out 1. No 2. Ni 3. M 4. Bi 5. Bo Out/Out 1. N/A 2. N/A 3. N/A 4. N/A 5. N/A I prefer to have nothing in Out/Out instead of having duplicate sounds with disarranged switching, unless John/Newey or any member came up with an idea that I may like. Other than that I will stick with this Thanks a lot.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 31, 2010 15:49:37 GMT -5
Hi mclord - welcome back.
Not sure about the out/out setting yet. You also should do this test, from post 30:
"In any two coil combination, you want to have hum canceling. So we need to relate the polarity of your middle pup which you are keeping, with that of the new DiMarzios that you are buying. Each 2 coil combo needs a south and a north coil to achieve a humcancelling result.
So when you have all your pups together, you should place the top of the middle pup against the slug coils and the adjustable coils of your humbuckers, to see which ones attract magnetically. That will determine which way round to mount your humbuckers."
cheers
John
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Aug 31, 2010 16:58:01 GMT -5
Ok.. I already did as you told.
I don't know where is north and where is south, however ; putting the pickups above each other and testing, It is like that:
2 (Repels from 3 ) 1 (Attracts with 3) /
3
/ 4 (Attracts with 3) 5 (Repels from 3 )
1&2 are coils of neck pickup and it is rotated 180 degrees
3 is middle coil
4&5 are coils of bridge pickup
/ There is a cut into the tape around the coils. I am marking them by the tape too. the Tape cut should be pointing towards the single coil pickup.
I know now how will I mount the pickups into the guitar body
If there is anything you want to know about, please tell me
EDIT: : My bridge pickup has no pole pieces. It is a rail pickup.
Also, I found in the Stewmac pickups manufactures and specs sheet that note about Dmarzio humbuckers:
"Output wire always exits pickup's baseplate under the south polarity coil"
Tomorrow night, I will provide you where is North and where is south. I've already packed my baggage to get ready to go back to RSA
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Post by JohnH on Sept 1, 2010 5:42:12 GMT -5
OK, well when you have worked that out, list it here and we can check what pickup wires go where.
I have had a few thinks about making the out/out setting be a zero setting, but I cant see how to do it wuth those switches - they are all fully employed and to do that would lose something else.
You could instead, get a three position four pole switch, and just have series, parallel and single. That could be a rotary switch or a 4pdt on-on-on (maybe hard to find where you are), and it would replace the push/pull switches
John
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Sept 2, 2010 6:08:24 GMT -5
Alright, It seems Stewmac's words are wrong or just applies on some - if not all - of the pickups which are not sets. (Bridge and Neck together) So please Ignore what I have said in the previous post I assumed that the coil where the wires go out below it is the out as said. I got both pickups and put the coils from each pickup (where wires go out below from) above each other. Since both should be South, the must repel, surprisingly, they attached. But as it seems the neck pickups no longer needed to be rotated 180 degrees opposing to I have stated earlier in the previous post. Perhaps Dimarzio noticed that should be done with neck pickup, while bridge pickups has opposite polarity coils with zero degree orientation especially when you buy a set of bridge and neck pickup together So since, I don't know where is North and where is south and what rule to apply to identify North from South, All I could do is blind mount, Hum-cancelling could be achieved but North and South are not identified. A simple scheme that summarize all what I've said: About the Out/Out setting, I don't have except the parts what I have arranged about before. Well, is it possible to ground them for example so no signal is there. Something like that ? If not possible, I will proceed with what we are at Now. Thanks John
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Post by newey on Sept 2, 2010 7:29:18 GMT -5
Mclord-
For your purposes here, it is not necessary to know which coil is actually N or S. The purpose of the test is to be sure that, when you select a particular coil from one or the other HB, it is opposite of the other so as to be hum-cancelling.
We only need to know which coils are opposite of the others, so your test gives us that information.
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Post by mclord on Sept 2, 2010 12:39:36 GMT -5
Good to hear
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Post by JohnH on Sept 2, 2010 15:59:21 GMT -5
neweys right, that all we need to be sure of is that the poles are alternate, as you have shown.
However, it leaves one question, since you dont have diferent screw and slug poles. I normally use those, together with the manufacturers wire schme to work out which wire goes to which pole on the diagram. So please could you work that out and add the wire colours for esch coil to your diagram above? Its easy, just touch pairs of wires to a guitar cord tip and barrel and tap poles with a screwdriver. the largest clicks through the amp indicate the correct pole is being tapped
John
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Sept 2, 2010 18:16:21 GMT -5
THE WHOLE IDEA WAS MISUNDERTOOD SO BADLY
Well, I don't understand pretty well, I got 2 pairs of wires and barreled them around Guitar Cable tip. Then what do I do ? Barrel the other end of both around screwdriver and tap both coils and observe which one of them generates louder clicks ? EDIT 1: I have done what it is said above - as I understood - , however; the results are not satisfying at all. I was able to determine the neck pickup slug pole. I tapped on both coils' poles, and one was obviously more louder. It is the pole which wires are coming out. So does that mean it is the North pole as stated on Stewmac Sheet (exactly as your sheet too) ? On the contrary, I had no luck to know about bridge pickup. It has no pole to tap on. The Rail is made of plastic and not metal. I tried the screws which are mounted in the baseplate but I can not hear a difference in loudness. For the colors of the wires for each coil. How may I know that ? As far as I know from that sheet, the Slug coil wires are Red+ and Black with North Polarity - we know where is the slug coil now for neck pickup -. But other than that, I don't know (Red&Black) with which coil and (White&Green) are with which one. So till NOW, these are the results I've reached so far: Image Deleted EDIT 2: Since we know that the Slug Pole is North for Dimarzio pickups - if Stewmac sheet was correct - and we know where is the Slug Pole for the neck pickup. So we can determine where is the slug pole for the bridge one as it will North as well ? What I am exclaimed from, how can a pole be an Adjustable pole and Slug pole at the same time ?
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Post by newey on Sept 2, 2010 20:46:51 GMT -5
No, we need you to test one pair at a time. There are 4 wires, therefore, there are 6 possible pairs (Gr w/ Red, Gr. w/ Bl, Gr. w/ Wh., Red w/ Bl, Red w/ Wh., and Wh. w/ Bl.)
Test each pair. If you get no output at all, then that pair of wires goes to separate coils. If you get a loud tap on one coil, and a bit of a tap on the other coil with any pair, then that pair is to the louder coil. The other 2 wires you weren't testing thus become the other coil.
This still doesn't tell you which way round the pair gets wired so as to be in phase with the other coil, but we can work that out once we know which wires correspond to which coils.
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Sept 2, 2010 21:01:20 GMT -5
It that possible to test with a Mulitmeter ? I mean not using sound but using readings ? Using wires will be sloppy because the pickups wires are too small and I didn't understand that John meant to do what you said too Also, do you mean testing Single Coil and the humbucker OR the humbucker coil ? Because the single coil is not a Dimarzio so wires colors vary Anyway, I will try to do so, but I have a question in mind, if I used a compass to determine Single Coil polarity and knew it then I knew where is South and Where is north for the Dimarzio humbuckers corresponding to this pickup and since we know that North Pole is the Slug pole for Dimarzio's and Also, know that North Pole wires are Red+ Black- and South Pole is White+ Green-. Can we get something from this test ? Assume the Single coil is "North", so I know where is North and where is south for the humbuckers and also know that North pole is the Slug pole. Also, the North pole wires are "Red+ and Black-" and South Pole "White+ and Green-". I knew that from Dimarzio website I feel I am mixing between Pole and Coil ? That thing became very confusing ! EDIT: May this help ?
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Post by newey on Sept 2, 2010 21:27:32 GMT -5
You can use a compass to determine magnetic polarity, but it sounds like you already have the info from the Dimarzio site. John and my confusion stems from your diagram showing one HB with 2 rows of adjustible coils and the other with 2 rows of slugs- if this is not how your pickups are, then no worries.
The only issue is the middle Ibanez pickup- you may not know whether it is in phase with the DiMarzios until you try it.
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mclord
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Post by mclord on Sept 2, 2010 21:46:09 GMT -5
Well, I became totally confused too.. Can you wait please ? Here is a picture of them.. It applies like the diagram I drew.. Unless I don't understand the whole idea which seems I really do Dimarzio Diagram (Which only applies on one pickup) because the coil where wires come from below attracts to the other coil on the other humbucker where wires comes from below too. Stewmac Chart: I read that on some forums: Blade pickups are non-adjustable, so you can use either coil. (Applies to Bridge pickup D-Activator X??) - Does that mean that both colis are slugs because there is no polepices. God help me Some pickups, like the Invader, have adjustable pole pieces on both coils.(Applies to D-Activator ??) Invader pickup:
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