epiphone em 3 project

[jcmix]

I'm working on a rare(i guess) epi em III. I have a wiring diagram, but having some trouble with it. Ive never seen a tone pot like this befor. It has something like a coil or something on the top of it. If i could take a good pic i would. Anyone else have something like this. The guitar is the epi version of the Gibson M3.

[newey]

JC-

Hello and Welcome!

I googled this guitar and got squat, not even a photo. So rare indeed, I guess!

I don't have an answer for your question, but perhaps someone else will. Photos might help, even if they're not the greatest.

[JohnH]

I found this scrap of info:

Epiphone EM series

And Gibson has a couple of diagrams for the M3 here:

Gibson Diagrams

Are they like yours?, what are your pickups?

cheers (and welcome)

John

[newey]

I checked Gibby's website, but never found the diagrams. It never occurred to me to look in the "lifestyles" section, I figured that was where they'd try to sell me a Les Paul T-shirt!

The Gibson M3 diagram does show an appendage on the back of the tone control, it looks like it might just be a fancy way to hook up the tone cap, but maybe there's more going on than that. The schematic might tell us, but it wouldn't load that .pdf for me.

Is this what we're talking about on your Epi (in the green square)?:

[JohnH]

Feb 13, 2010 22:17:26 GMT -5 newey said:

I checked Gibby's website, but never found the diagrams.

My logic for finding them was, given that there is no clue to their existance from the Gibson home page, then the question:

'"where the f... are the *%$# wiring diagrams?...",

...must therefore presumably be a rather frequently asked question. So I found a link to it in FAQ's!

John

[sumgai]

newey,


jcmix first thought it might be a coil, and indeed, the 'parts layout' doesn't specifically call out or otherwise show the inductor that we see in the schematic, so by process of elimination......


~!~!~!~
jcmix,

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!




sumgai

[wolf]

Heck, since newey and JohnH did a lot of searching for the schematic I followed JohnH's link and figured I'd copy it and put it right here:


That coil / capacitor combination in the lower left seems like that tone circuit we talk about from time to time. That cuts out the mids correct?

[newey]

Well, I never got the schematic to load, so I didn't see the inductor. Is this some sort of simplified Varitone thingy?

[wolf]

newey
Yes, it does seem like a trimmed down Varitone circuit.
And that's why I decided to post it here because some folks may not be able to get that page to load.
By the way, I don't think I've ever stated it here, but I hate pdf's a LOT !!!

[jcmix]

john H , yes thats what mine looks like. The pickups are OBL which i was told stand for Original Bill Lawrence. So in the diagram am i soldering to the top of the coil thingy, and not the pot itself? I know this guitar is supposed to have like 10 different pickup combos, with the 5 way switch and the toggle.

[newey]

The pickups are OBL which i was told stand for Original Bill Lawrence

Yes, as opposed to "Bill Lawrence USA" which is a different company.

I would say follow the Gibby diagram if you can ascertain enough information from it, it's not the clearest diagram.

I count 9 different sounds- the 5 originally available on the 5 way, plus split coil options with the neck pup at positions 1 and 2, and with the bridge pup at 4 and 5.

[sumgai]

Feb 14, 2010 11:10:07 GMT -5 newey said:

.......
I count 9 different sounds- the 5 originally available on the 5 way, plus split coil options with the neck pup at positions 1 and 2, and with the bridge pup at 4 and 5.

I get the same number, but for different reasons. Here's the Truth Table as I see it:

DPDT up:

1- N(single)
2- M+N(single)
3- M
4- M+B(single)
5- B(single)

DPDT down:

1- cap/coil circuit - No Output At All!!!
2- N(Hb)+cap/coil circuit
3- N(Hb)
4- N(Hb+B(Hb)
5- B(Hb)


Hmmm, not what I'd expect, if I were to pick up this guitar without any introduction to its oddities.   I can sure think of better things to do with that cap/coil combo, instead of just sticking it in there on one of the main pickup selector positions.

Gotta love those wackos in Gibson's Design Department.





sumgai

[jcmix]

so am i soldering to the thing outlined int green in newey's reply? I had a page saved with the order of pickup combo's, and they said one off the combo's was No sound. Maybe like a kill switch?

[JohnH]

Its hard to tell exactly what the inductor is soldered to on the wiring diagram, but on the schematic it is not grounded itself, it has a cap connected to it, and a wire to the switch. the inductor is, internally, a coil so its main cionnections are unlikely to be to the metal case.

Pkotos of yours would be good, or even a sketch.

I stared several times at the schematic, and kept thinking I must have read it wrong due to that apparent dead setting and the strange way the 5 position switch is shown. There has to be a better way of wiring it!

John

[sumgai]

jc,

Feb 14, 2010 14:32:25 GMT -5 jcmix said:

so am i soldering to the thing outlined int green in newey's reply?

Dunno. I'd need to see at least one other view of it, from any side, in order to tell. That top-down view only doesn't tell me very much at all.....

I had a page saved with the order of pickup combo's, and they said one off the combo's was No sound. Maybe like a kill switch?

Seems to me I just said that. You could use it as a kill switch, in position 1 only, but the mini-toggle DPDT was likely not made for that kind of abuse. Probably not a good idea.

HTH



sumgai

[jcmix]

ok so give me a few more mins , i got some pic's loading to my flicker account.

[jcmix]

www.flickr.com/photos/my_guitars/4356902185/ thats the link . hope it works.

[sumgai]

jc,

OK, that photo works for me.

See that short lead coming out of the side, right over the pot terminals? It's directly opposite of the lead where the cap is soldered..... that's the one you need to use - solder the long wire coming from the switch to this lead, and everything should be good to go.... according to the Gibson drawings.

Are you building/re-building this guitar back to "stock, right off the showroom floor", or are you simply making sure everything works like it should, before you start acting like you belong here in The NutzHouse? ;D   As you might guess, we can cough up some rather interesting uses for that cap/coil combo..... that is, if'n yer interested......

HTH



sumgai

[newey]

We're all assuming that the Gibson diagram is correct, of course.

Seems to me I recall finding diagrams on a mfr's website which were wrong, though, so I wouldn't take it on faith that Gibby wired this with a dead position.

But maybe. I read one guy's review on Harmony Central where he noted that the toggle switch "switched between Strat sounds and LP sounds", and he also noted that there is "a special cap" on the Neck HB in one position to darken the sound. He didn't mention any dead position, but since he didn't specifically describe each position, maybe there is.

Anyway, what he did say corresponds with SG's truth table.

[jcmix]

ok, somgai! I'm not a total noob to this wiring stuff. lol! I really don't plan on getting rid of this guitar. Just wanting to try the original wiring , or if there is something better i can do. I have just never seen a tone pot that that befor. I joined this forum to learn, i play a decent guitar, but love to destory, rebuild with the best of them.

[sumgai]

Feb 14, 2010 23:22:16 GMT -5 jcmix said:

I joined this forum to learn, i play a decent guitar, but love to destory, rebuild with the best of them.

Hoo boy. OK, who wants to take care of my light work? ;D

The floor is open for nominations.......




sumgai

[jcmix]

Sumgai, do you have a diagram that would give me more options? Like i said i'm here to learn, i've never wired a guitar up with this many options.

[liquidshadows71]

I found you lookin for wiring help as well ...

pretty sure we have the same guitar here, what I have is an Epiphone EM-2 rebel custom, an absolute match right here (except in mine is black)

cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Epiphone-EM-2-Early-90s-PRISTINE-CONDITION-/320567048581?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Guitar&hash=item4aa348f985

Poor guitar sat for years before I got a hold of it.
It was my brothers and worked pretty well when he got it. Then he hacked the toggle off it, covers off the pick ups and then it sat for years. Neck inlays have popped out and some where replaced with some kind of wood. There are parts missing from the tremolo system ... knobs missing .. its a freakin mess!.

SOOO.. I'm gonna rebuild/revive it .. probably not worth it but I wanna anyway .. but I'm not sure what to do about the electronics.. or the inlays, so I guess I'm lookin for advice.

Try to go stock?! or just hack it up, scallop the neck and hot rod a decent set of pickups, maybe emulate the original wiring plan and upgrade it ..
The action is SERIOUSLY low and this guitar wants to be a shredder .. I can feel it , it's crying for me to help it!!

any input?

[newey]

LS71-

Hello and Welcome!

but I'm not sure what to do about the electronics.. or the inlays, so I guess I'm lookin for advice.

Well, we can help with the electronics. As for the inlays, I'd advise reposting that part of the project in the Luthier section once you get to that point. Cynical1 moderates that section, and if anyone can tell you how to re-inlay it, he can. Probably could help with the scalloping, if you decide to go that route- not my cup 'O brew but a preference for some folks.

As far as "keep it stock" versus "mod it":

1) It's an Epi, not a Gibson, and probably won't ever have any "vintage" value to speak of. If it was the similar, and rare, Gibson M-III, that might be a different story.

2) If it's already a basket case, the odds that you can find either NOS or used stock parts are slim- and a "half-stock" guitar is still "modified" to a collector- see #1 above. Odds are, it ain't never again gonna be truly "stock".

3) Better parts, including pickups, can improve it sonically and playability wise.

In other words (and assuming you're resurrecting this to play it and not to sell it) I think logic says, mod it how you want it and stock be durned.

As far as electronics, there are any number of HSH schemes around here. A better question to ask is, what do you play, and what sounds/tone, etc. do you use to play it? In other words, what do you like?

Also, as for the inlays, what I said about finding stock parts holds true- you probably can find inlays that are close (in tint, pattern, size), but not exactly identical. That means you're probably looking at replacing them all to have it look right. But post some photos, it may depend on how many you're missing and how close the replacements are.

[liquidshadows71]

yeah I was thinking there is probably little hope for it to be truly stock again. I'm leaning toward making my own "super-strat". I'm a Les Paul Studio kind of guy myself. One idea was to work a version of Buckethead's mayhem into it, placing the kill switch where the toggle was, I use my three way on the Paul alot for that effect, be a shame not to have it on this guitar! Probably go with Burstbuckers with a Lace in the single slot. Least thats my thought ...

I'll probably leave the neck work to a pro, don't want to screw it up myself experimenting, and I have a good friend for that. Electronics I'm not scarred of. I know my way around circuits!

Thanx Again!
~MAC~