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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 27, 2010 11:06:48 GMT -5
Hey all, for some reason I seem to suffer from the odd muffled string on my licensed floyd rose bridge. It tends to be the the low E or more often than not high E. I have looked at both points of contact a million time and both seem fine. I have no clue to this problem at all and the only thing I can think off is replace with better quality FR gear. I was thinking bout a Gotoh locking nut instead of the one I got installed at the moment. However replacement parts cost a ot of money and I'm not even sure that these parts are to blame. To describe the problem which at the moment with brand new GHS Infinity strings on is: On open striking of the low E string it sounds as though the string is being muffled in comparison to the others. The High E is having a similar type of problem but less at the moment. When I fret the high E the problem is gone, but not with the low E. It just sounds dull. For an even more bizarre reason, the strings sustain fine (acoustically, and electronically) right now the low E is very quiet on amplification. Usually the problem is just with the high E, and is more often than not sounds fine amplified. However there is clearly something up as un amplified it sounds as if something has killed the ring out. This has happened on a variety of string brands so it isn't strings. Dunno what the hell it is, no dirt any cra_p at the points of contact (nut and saddle), no wear on the saddles either!! PURE MYSTERY!! help if you can, its doing my head in!! Gerry
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Post by sumgai on Mar 27, 2010 12:16:26 GMT -5
Gerry,
If you get various symptoms over time, from string set to string set, and not the same symptoms every time, then it's likely that your gear is fine. I'd still vote for the strings themselves.
At one point or another, all the string companies have "issues" with quality control. Once in a great while several companies have problems at the same time, so don't think that switching brands is sure-fire way to "double-check" your gear.
I've found, over the years, that it pays to buy a whole box of string sets. Besides being cheaper per set, what I do is when I'm putting on set #10 *(out of 12 sets in the box), I'll go buy another box. I then test a set from that new box, just to be sure that it has no issues. If it's good, I use up the old stuff with confidence that the new stuff is ready to go.
But if the new set is bogus, and I find that one more set in that new box is also bogus, then it's back to the store with them right away. And I still have two sets of "old" strings to keep me going until I can find another box (from another dealer, with a different "lot" code), even if the price is a bit steeper.
If I were a pro player, and I depended on the sound of my strings, I'd probably start at halfway through the current box, and not at 10 out of 12, or even 8 out 10 sets.
My local GC has more than 200 sq. ft. of wall space for displaying strings(!), and that doesn't include the boxes stored below that display. IOW, they stock one whale of a lot of strings. Even so, they'll get a set back once in awhile that is claimed to be "dead". A look at the date code (if still available) usually reveals that the string was on the shelf for way too long (like a year or more). What happens then depends on the store, but my local guys will take a closer look at that brand's stuff still on display. Whatever they find that's more than 9 months old, it goes on the discount table, and they stop carrying that particular brand/style/gauge/whatever it was that's not selling well enough to stay fresh. Not a bad policy, to my way of thinking.
However, I use Dean Markley Blue Steels, a stainless steel string. I've found that I can make them last, with excellent tone, for as much as a month, more when I "take a break" from constant playing. (As dictated by the other half, believe me, it's not by my choice!) That means that set #12 might be as old as a year, when it finally gets put on the axe. And for the life of me, I can't tell any difference between the tone of this "old" set and a brand new one. (Which I've purchased a short while ago, remember? See above.).
I can't swear that all stainless steel strings will last that long, but it stands to reason, at least in my mind. And they don't cost any more than most other strings. But I do admit that, at least for the DM BS's, they sound a bit different from the average nickel-plated jobbies. Very much right up my alley, but perhaps some players might not like their tone, I don't know.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by rabidgerry on Mar 30, 2010 9:36:29 GMT -5
I hear ya, but that just doesn't add up to me when its now three different brands of strings from three seperate suppliers and from two different countries of origin (USA made and Korean made strings).
I've never experienced this with strings before, well I have experienced dead strings but this seems different.
I really thought it could have been seating issues, but now I've no idea. Since they sounded better fretted I honestly thought the metal locking nut wasn't seating the strings correctly. I can't explain the low E still sounding like something is muting it. As I said before, it sustains pretty much normal.
The brand I've on at the mo is GHS Infinity, (coated protecting and all that, I thought I'd try these) but they're going dead already after about 6 hours playing (discolouring, no longer smooth on the unwound strings).
Will try another one of these coated string brands next, I need to do something as I can't aford to change them all the time (at the minute).
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Post by gitpiddler on Apr 21, 2010 2:17:15 GMT -5
Sounds like the locking nut if fretted notes are OK. Look at the slot at the fret side of the nut. Maybe a little filing to level that edge. eta: On the low side, check the underside of the saddle piece for good contact surface to bridge plate.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Apr 21, 2010 15:58:32 GMT -5
I had a similar problem with my first guitar. It was actually the bar on the tuning post side of the nut that holds the strings down to simulate the angled headstock deal that was loose, and it was vibrating when I plucked an open string. Even with the string "locked" with the FR nut, the bar would vibrate just a very small amount and it caused a slight buzz that was audible when not amped.
Other than cleaning up all the contact points, I'd say it could be something out past the nut, even though my issue was more with buzz than a dead sound.
If they are only going dead after you play them, then I'd have to lean to string issue, though. I play medium elixer nanowebs. I've never gotten a dead string in eight years of playing with multiple guitars.
But I also get (force) a good three months out of my elixers with my FR guitar... yeah, I know... but they're such a pain in the butt to change!
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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 17, 2010 12:13:16 GMT -5
Again apologies to replying 100000years after I started this thread, but anyways sydsbluesky and gitpiddler, I understand both of your suggestions and since my last message on here there have been more changes.
I've switched to Elixir strings and bbbbbbbbbbbboooooooooyyyyy am I happy!! I have a set on four weeks now!!! They feel so good too and for my sweaty hands there super smooth slippy surface allow me to glide and play with ease and without corroded strings cutting into my poor fat fingers!!!
With these elxirs, I have noticed none of the dead problems at all..............................weird.......................
Also, I noticed before the switch over.......strings (ordinary non coated) would settle down and the dead open strings would improve on open play a little........however the thing that makes most sense to me is what gitpiddler suggested and that is the fret side slots in the metal nut could use a little filler in them for the string to make better contact. Well I can't be sure but since fretting strings suffering from the dead open playing sounded fine fretted then I guess I can assume that it has to be something to do with the nut from the fret side. I tried many times to dig the string further into these slots on the fret side of the metal locking nut and it was hard to determine but it did seem to cancel some of the deadness, it was hard to tell though cause I couldn't really play whilst holding the string in that way.
Anyways, gitpiddler, if your about still what would you suggest to fill the slots a little? Just curious even though right this minute I do not have the slightly dead open string problem. I'm definately sold on the fact that the slots are the main problem, its like the string isn't seated as tight as it could in order to allow full ring out on open play!!
And just another note to say how Elixirs have now allowed me to pick up and play anytime without fear or corroding my strings!!! Really saved my bacon!!! Its so good!!!
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Post by chuck on Jun 17, 2010 12:46:57 GMT -5
i believe file , not fill is the answer.
you dont want anything to touch the string after it is clamped , THAT will deaden the sound.
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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 18, 2010 8:18:01 GMT -5
Ahhhhh I see. I don't have correct sort of files however so I'm screwed
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Post by chuck on Jun 18, 2010 12:41:44 GMT -5
it is wise to buy ( over time ) the simple tools to work on your guitar . a Dremel tool is an awesome piece to have .
and lots of times you dont need guitar specific tools , just stuff you can pick up at tool shows very cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 4:57:18 GMT -5
i believe file , not fill is the answer. you dont want anything to touch the string after it is clamped , THAT will deaden the sound. sorry for bringing this up from the grave, but filing an already wide slot would just accelerate the nut's death, till you buy the next locking nut, and discover that now it is B that sounds dull, and so on... Most locking nuts are targeted against an 80s players group, and thus are slotted for 10s strings. If you put anything smaller or bigger than that, you'll come into problems. Also the vibrations (bridge, tuning machines, electonics cavity etc..) are hard to chase. When a vibration happens energy is lost and the string sounds dull. Nothing you can do really, just hope its not audible via the amp, and that the sustain is there during the harmonics. Having a G string that plucked open dies in 4 seconds is a big problem. Having a great sustaining G and a so and so B, is not a problem for me. YMMV.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 12:58:58 GMT -5
There is something more on this. Sometimes there is some margin/space between the locking pads (also referred to as "blocks") and the nut's teeth both in headstock side and in fretboard side. What you gotta do is make sure that the space between the pad and the fretboard side teeth must be minimal, ideally the pads must touch the teeth, fretboard side. Leaving space after the nut slot for the string to move freely is recipe for bad sound.
Another tip. Sometimes the culprit is not the nut. Sometimes it is some vibration or just the saddles. Even "original floyd roses" made in 2000's and later are said to not always stand up to their reputation. A badly formed saddle would have much more fatal consequences (affecting all notes) than a badly made nut.
A final tip : when making changes (either mine above or from the frudua's site), ALWAYS measure the sustain on open notes, before and after. If you notice an increase in sustain, ... you did something right! The note will sound stronger and clearer.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 15:40:28 GMT -5
Well, an update, cause I think finally i nailed it : Glued down a tiny piece of paper for the string to sit upon. This will eventually get hardened in the long run, resulting in even better tone. Frankly this is the only fix I could think of. Metal filings + super glue, metal putty, general putty all seem like they could create a mess. This one seems clean. Its contribution to action height at first fret is noticeable but nothing major. I hope it will compress and settle a little lower in the long run. My other option would be to go an buy a new nut, and experience says that both Schaller *AND* Gotoh will have the sitar effect on some string or another.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 12:24:25 GMT -5
The latest version is with aluminum foil : I think more robust than the paper version, since its metal on metal.
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Post by lunaalta on Nov 8, 2014 16:56:44 GMT -5
I was just about to suggest that you try aluminium foil..... LOL
I used it on my acoustic, before the nut was changed. I chose foil because it would be more solid than card/paper, and, hopefully, lose less mechanical energy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 2:09:13 GMT -5
Hola! I guess the acoustic could be treated with dust from the nut itself (usually its top), mixing with super glue and finally re-cutting the slot somehow. But with the floyds things are tougher since any new Schaller or Gotoh cost about 30 euros, so changing one after the other just to find one that does not sound muffled could end up pretty costy!.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 3:07:08 GMT -5
Reverted back to the paper solution. Paper when hardened with super glue reacts better with the string than aluminum. Also noticed some other buzzes, rattles, and muffled sounds when doing downstroke picking. Turned this up it was the saddles rather than the nut. So, one has to be careful not to overdo things locally but rather consider treating the whole system.
As a conclusion I am disappointed by both Schaller and Gotoh.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 15:51:06 GMT -5
Did more strings D,A,low E, at last good sounding open notes :
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 0:15:02 GMT -5
Next experiment will be with a very thin layer of strong metal epoxy glue.
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