Modding a Black Beauty

[gangstarick69]

hi ive been looking for pickups for my epi black beauty then i thought why not go all the way and mod the wiring, i looked up the Jimmy Page Black Beauty wiring and i decided thats what i want to do, but then i realised that you cant buy the 6 position switch so a started thinking about what i could do and i though instead of having a 6 position switch could i use a push pull pot to turn the middle pickup on and off, so i could have a normal les paul sound then have the option of adding the middle for more tone options
so could andybody make me a diagram with 2 push pulls, 1 to split the neck and bridge pickups and 1 to turn the middle pickup on and off?

[wolf]

Hi gangstarick69

If you want a diagram of a Jimmy Page wiring, look at this one on my website:
www.1728.com/guitar9.htm

It is not the 6 position switch modification that you mentioned but it is a wiring based upon the rewiring done to his Les Paul.

By the way, do the pickups on your Epiphone have 3 conductor wiring? You'll need it.

[gangstarick69]

i have Jimmy Page Wiring on my 335 project, but i would ike to wire my Black Beauty to get close to Jimmy Pages Black Beauty because it adds tonal options to the basic set up

this is what the JP Black Beauty does:
In the normal position, the toggle operates like a standard 2 pickup Les Paul toggle:
selecting Neck pickup, Neck and Bridge pickup, or Bridge pickup. Push it to the unique forward position,
and now you can choose between Neck & Middle, Neck & Middle & Bridge, or Bridge & Middle.
A push-pull treble tone knob splits the rear pickup for the traditional Jimmy Page single coil option.


Jimmy Page custom BurstBucker humbuckers
2 volume, 2 tone
Push/pull pot splits bridge humbucker into single-coil
Jimmy Page custom 6-way switch:
Position 1 NECK
Position 2 BRIDGE + NECK
Position 3 BRIDGE
Position 4 NECK + MIDDLE
Position 5 NECK + MIDDLE + BRIDGE
Position 6 MIDDLE + BRIDGE

My idea is to acheive those switching options but using a push pull pot instead of the 6 way switch because you cant buy them, and instead of just splitting the bridge id like to split both neck and bridge

[wolf]

By the way, how is the pickup switch on the Epiphone currently wired? Is it neck/middle/bridge, neck/all 3/bridge or something else entirely?

[gangstarick69]

its neck/middle,bridge/bridge

[wolf]

I'm thinking this could be done with 4 push-pull pots - a push-pull pot for each pickup (neck middle and bridge) and the 4th push-pull pot for splitting the neck and bridge coils.

If you have a push pull pot for each pickup, you'll get 1 addtional sound that the Jimmy Page wiring doesn't have - middle only.

The way I have it pictured, everything could be controlled from the push-pull pots and you wouldn't need the pickup switch at all. I'd like to hear what others have to say about this.

And as I've said, you'll need 4 wires coming out of both the neck and bridge humbuckers. (If te humbuckers are factory installed the odds are quite high that they only have two wires).

[gangstarick69]

ive been looking at kent armstrong PAF and Rocker pickups which are 4 wire, thats a good idea but i think it would be too many wires for my dad to handle, he lost lost his hair after pulling it out when he did my JP wired 335 haha

[wolf]

Okay, but if you even want to have coil cut and you want to keep the pickups you already have, it will require somebody to rewire the pickups from 2 wire to 4 wire.
Here's how to do it - no fun!!
www.1728.com/guitar1a.htm
If your father hated working with 4 wire humbuckers, this procedure pushes you one step further back by having you (or your father) rewire the actual pickup.
If you already have one rewired Les Paul was it done by the Jimmy Page wiring I mentioned earlier? If so, do you like the series / parallel sounds for each pickup with that rewiring? If you do, then I'd rethink what you are planning because in my humble opinion, this wiring doesn't produce as many drastic tone changes as the guitar you already have rewired.
As I've said before, I'd like some other opinions on this.

[gangstarick69]

ill be buying new pickups, and i think the series/parrallel switch is pointless when we first wired it it only made alot of difference on the neck pickup and when i switched to bridge the sound dropped dramatically but you could still hear it very faintly, ive noticed though if you turn the bridge tone and volume down and switch to either middle or neck you get quite a bit of tone difference i dont really use it though. the reason i still want the coil splitting option is because a few songs i play sound better with single coils, id like to be able to use my neck and bridge pickups together though and still have the option of beefin up the sound with the middle

[sumgai]

gr,

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!


Why do you insist that 6-position rotary switches are unavailable?

Stew-Mac Rotary Switches

.... among many other pages found via google.

Is it that you don't want this thing, or that you do want it but honestly thought it was not for sale anywhere? In the latter case, the Innerwebs is your friend, everytime!

But as wolf says above, there are ways of doing things, and for the rest of us, there's the NutzHouse! ;D


HTH




sumgai

[newey]

If you're buying new pickups, as wolf noted, make sure they're 4 wire if you want coil cuts.

Given that you don't care to have intra-pickup series/parallel, I nonetheless assume you want series/parallel between the bridge and neck? Or the mid in series with either one?

One push/pull pot can handle both coil cuts, Br and N, but both will be cut in the center position of the 3-way with the knob pulled up. If you want to be able to individually cut the N or Br coils, you'd need to dedicate 2 p/ps to the task.

Given that the "parallel HB" wiring is not your thing, how about using one p/p pot as a middle pup on/off? Then the 3-way just controls the N and Br, as in a std LP. A second p/p could give you the middle in series with the neck or bridge. 2 more p/ps for the coil cuts, makes 4 total.

This scheme, however, wouldn't give you the middle by itself, if that's an issue for you. Wolf's idea does that, but eliminates the "Br HB + N SC", and vice versa, that you have with 2 coil cut switches.

[wolf]

sumgai - thanks for finding the Stew-Mac link.

By searching a little further (farther?) I was able to find this 6 position rotary switch:
www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Switches_and_knobs/Free-Way_Pickup_Switch.html?tab=Instructions

which is precisely the one to which gangstarick69 was referring.

It has some wiring diagrams connected with it (but they are pdf's).
Since I hate pdf's , I decided to convert these into the much friendlier jpg's.
This graphic shows how the switch works:

And this one shows the circuit that gagngstarick69 was planning on wiring:


Well, now with this info available, I'd say doing that wiring seems a lot easier. And I think it would be relatively easy to wire in 1 or 2 push-pull pots to use as coil cut switches. (Of course I'd like to make sure about wiring the coil cuts so that they would be hum-canceling when both coils were active).

As I've said before, is this circuit really worth doing all this work? Are all these options going to produce tones that are noticeably different from what is already there?
And gagngstarick69, the way you describe your previous wiring project, it seems it may not have been done correctly. As I've said, that circuit should be sounding a lot better than what you are hearing.

[sumgai]

wolf,

You're correct, gr never said "rotary", I simply made an incorrect corollary assumption. Sigh.


I like that switch you found, but I have to admit, the physics of how such a thing could be made, let alone made to work reliably, made me thing of the first day of April. ;D But all those drawings and such, that seems like a lot of work just for a one-day joke....

I'm waiting for your site to develop a new page detailing how to make this thing yield "97 sounds" or whatever you can come up with!



sumgai

[gangstarick69]

thats the exact switch i wanted Wolf but last time i looked for one it didnt exist yet would anyone be able to modifiy that diagram on a larger scale for me to be able to coil split N and B pickups please?
i think my dad could handle that, i know this probably seams daft that i want to do this but JP has always been one of my main influeces and i love my black beauty but want to get more out of it, and plus it means i dont have to buy another les paul......... yet!

[gangstarick69]

as quick as my dreams came true they were shatterd, the only place i can find that sells the switch is stew mac and for a gold one which i need it would cost £18.13 which mean i would have to pay a £10 on top of that just to have the priviledge of somebody open it, check it, and then send it on to me bloody import tax

[sumgai]

gr,


Ah, you're now well acquainted with "how the world works".

Ask rabidgerry, he'll vouch for me as a go-between. If you're interested, I'll PM you with my address, you send over something I can use in trade, or a Postal Money Order for about 25 (USD), and I'll buy that switch, and turn around and mail it to you. That cuts the 'middle man', aka The Customs People, out of the loop right proper. ;D

Howzat sound to ya?



sumgai

[wolf]

There are still some choices left for you.

You could order 4 push-pull pots and have 3 of those as on/off switches for the neck middle and bridge pickups and have the fourth be a coil cut switch for neck and bridge.

If you wanted just the neck single coil, just select neck only and the coil cut and you'll have it. This also gives a 7th tone for you - middle only. Actually, you'll also have an eighth tone- "Off"

I'd say buying 4 push-pull pots would probably be more expensive than buying one Jimmy Page switch but at least the push-pull pots are more readily available.

There are other solutions. For example, if you don't mind drilling four holes in your guitar, you could just use 4 toggle switches. (This is the solution I'd choose for my guitar). Also, you could use the rotary switch that sumgai suggested but it's much trickier to wire and you don't get "middle only" and "Off".

Again, i'd like to ask if you are sure the wiring on the other guitar was done properly. That should give you more tone variations than this project would. You said about the series/parallel switch:

it only made alot of difference on the neck pickup and when i switched to bridge the sound dropped dramatically but you could still hear it very faintly

The volume difference should not be that dramatic.

[JohnH]

That 6-way is a clever looking thing, and it is (at least functionally) iwhat Gibson are putting on the latest JP LP.

But as an alternative, Ive been greatly enjoying my LP studio in which the coil cuts are created from the standard tone pots. It works so that at 0-9 on a tone pot, the pickup sounds like a humbucker, then transitions to single col as you turn it to 10. It really works and Ive found it to be very practical for live use.

This is the simple version:

Simple LP mod

This one is no more complex in its simplest form, but arranged so that extra switch functions can be added if wanted:

LP modular design

What I'm tentatively suggesting here, for consideration, is to use that idea with your tone pots giving you the coil cuts on N and B, then add just one push/pull switch to add in the middle pup. I think I would make it switch in directly across the bridge pickup, so it is under the control of the bridge volume control. So with switch in, you get N, N+B, B (all with humbuckers or single coils dependent on tone control position), then pull the switch to get N, N+B+M, B+M, with the B and N pups still being splittable.

John

[wolf]

JohnH
Those are darned good ideas. Of course, since this is GuitarNuts someone will always want to toss their ideas in.

How about making the middle pickup independent of the bridge pickup volume and pickup switch? The middle pickup switch could switch it on at any time.
The switching would be much more intuitive:
Middle Switch OFF - Neck // Neck and Bridge // Bridge
Middle Switch ON - Neck & Middle// Neck, Middle & Bridge // Middle & Bridge

and it yields one more combination - Neck & Middle.

Of course this would require rewiring the current pickup switching and would eliminate any volume control for the middle pickup.

[JohnH]

Wolf I thought about that version too. The pp switch could just directly connect or disconnect the M pup to the output. The rest of the circuit for B and N could remain.

Its a choice of volume control per my first suggestion, versus another sound available with maybe a sort of inherent 'blower switch' feature as you connect in the non-volume controlled M pup.

The great thing about an LP is that you can quickly make changes to try options like these, working via the rear cover, without removing pickguards or restringing etc

cheers

John

[gangstarick69]

wow guys thats alot of ideas, thanks im really greatful, ive decided to wait until i have new pickups then decide from there what im going to do. And sumgai thanks for the offer its very kind of you ill bare you in mind, with any luck by the time ive saved up for new pickups someone might of came to there sences and started selling the freeway switch over here

[wolf]

gangstarick69
Heck I thought JohnH came up with very good ideas which only require 1 new part - a push-pull pot.
To paraphrase a line from Treasure of the Sierra Madre
"You don't need no stinkin' Freeway Switch"

But seriously, if you want the official switch, I can't blame you for that. At least you have developed the Guitar Nut mentality.

[gangstarick69]

the daft thing is my dad sent stew mac an email asking if they could knock the 37 pence off the price of the switch and then add it to the postage but they wouldnt do it. Anyway like i said im going to wait until i find some new pickups first i will definatly be getting 4 wire conductors though, has anybody got any good ideas on pickups that sound like gibson burst buckers? but cheaper