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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Apr 30, 2010 21:56:24 GMT -5
I found the GuitarNuts sites a couple years ago and became fascinated with electric guitars and modding. Now, I finally have a guitar I want to modify and I've decided what end result I want... but I need some help. I know how I want the outside to look and function, but don't know how to make that happen on the inside. My idea is based upon the David Gilmour Black Strat Bridge-On mod, but maybe more complex. It is also inspired by the typical 2-pickup layout on my Les Paul. It's a little confusing but when it's done I believe it will be simple and intuitive... at least for my mind. I want to get into modding and eventually luthiery and hope to become a very active member of this forum as I learn. I just filled out my info and signature stuff but I kinda lied a bit so I won't have to change it too soon. I wrote that my Strat copy has custom wiring but it doesn't quite yet. I hope someone here can help me make that happen. Thanks in advance! ***** I will consider the Neck and Bridge pickups to be my "main" pickups and the middle is something extra to play around with occasionally. My plan keeps the Middle out of the way for easy switching between the more important Neck and Bridge. I want to replace the standard 5-way switch with a Telecaster-style 3-way switch. It will switch between the Neck and Bridge, with both activated when the switch is in it's middle position. (That's the part that came from my interest in the Black Strat mod. I like the sound of the Neck and Bridge together.) So, for this part, it will be as if it has no Middle pickup. I want to add a 3-position mini toggle switch solely to operate the Middle pickup. One position should keep the Middle pickup turned off, one position should put the Middle on by itself, and one should add the Middle into whatever I've selected with my Tele-style switch (in order to get Neck+Mid, Bridge+Mid, or all 3 together.) I should mention that I plan to use the Tone knobs for the Neck and Bridge pickups and have no Tone control for the Middle pickup. Also, I am not concerned with notch-position hum cancelling. ***** So I guess what I need to know is how to get the two switches working together and what kind of mini toggle switch I'll need. I have one that is DPDT ON/OFF/ON and am hoping to use that but I'm not sure how to wire it. If you think you might be able to help me but think I could explain something better... please ask me to clarify. I'd really appreciate some input on this but it is my first wiring mod and most involved guitar project yet, so I may be articulating something wrong. I can't find it, but please tell me if there's already a modification like this documented somewhere. If there isn't.... let's go ahead and call this "The BlackAngusYoung Mod."
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Post by newey on Apr 30, 2010 22:52:28 GMT -5
BAY- I'm thinking it would go like this, but let's have someone sign off on this afore ye wire it. Apologies for the rather crude diagram: This should give: DPDT down- Middle only, 3-way switch shorted DPDT centered- Middle off, 3-way operational DPDT up- Middle on with 3-way selection 3-way gives: 1) Neck, neck tone control 2) N+B, both tone controls 3) Bridge, bridge tone control
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Post by sumgai on May 1, 2010 1:34:59 GMT -5
newey, Sorry, but your truth table should read: DPDT down - Totally off, no tone output at all DPDT centered - Middle on with 3-way selection DPDT up - Middle on with 3-way selection Fortunately the desired results can be obtained by moving or removing a wire or two..... Not to mention that you've tied the "hot" of both Bridge and Neck pups together, thus negating the selector switch entirely. sumgai
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Post by newey on May 1, 2010 7:53:44 GMT -5
OK, that's exactly why I said to wait for confirmation . . . Here's take 2. This solves the problems Sumgai identified (I think), but now neither tone control would be working at position 2 of the 3-way. I think I can fix that, too, but it's off to work now so no time to do more here. There's also undoubtedly an easier way to do this . . .
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 1, 2010 12:23:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the help, guys! I really appreciate it. Didn't exactly expect someone to immediately reply with a schematic. Y'all rock!!! I think I recognize newey's name & pic from a while ago when I needed some help with something.
This schematic and wiring stuff is still pretty new to me but I'm very intent to learn all about it. As of last year, I'm in the business of buying and selling used goods. I get my hands on instruments in disrepair and I can clean them up and re-sell them... but it's also an opportunity to try interesting things. This project is for my own, though. What appears to me to be a pretty decent Strat copy, solid not plywood and some other things that made me consider it a keeper.
I don't actually have my new pickups, wiring or switches yet. (I wrote it "I have... toggle switch" just to simplify.) I've ordered the stuff I need from StewMac and from wholesalers I have accounts with through my store. I just started getting nervous yesterday wondering if perhaps I should have ordered the ON/ON/ON mini toggle switch. I need to do some studying on basic switches and stuff, which I guess I should have done before ordering.
I think I will be better able to understand how things should be put together once I get the actual parts in my hands and can see how they function. I'll be better able to understand what means what on the schematics. (I was recently staring at a standard strat schematic saying "duh...." but when I took my pickguard off and examined the switch, I was like "aahh... now I get it.") So I'll probably also be able to isolate the things I really don't understand and ask more specific questions.
Just wanted to say thanks for sharing your wisdom and don't worry about me jumping into wiring it just yet because I don't even have the wiring yet. I just want to make sure I know what I'm gonna do once I receive the stuff.... cuz then I'll want to jump into it!
Thanks again.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 1, 2010 12:32:40 GMT -5
Sorry, newey, that ain't gonna work neither nohow. Don't really have time to work it out right now, but here's some ideas.
1) I don't think you need the ground to hit the DPDT at all. 2) It'd be easier to just wire the Tone controls across their respective pickups and remove them from the 3-way all together. 3) I think it might want an On-On-On. Like a real one where both poles connect to both of their respective outside lugs in the center position.
Then I'm pretty sure it only needs one pole: 3-way hot output to top, volume pot hot to middle (common), and middle hot to bottom. You'll get: Up - 3-way only Middle - 3-way + Middle Down - Middle only Install the switch so that the orientation makes most sense to you.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 1, 2010 14:53:10 GMT -5
I think ashcatlt is thinking in the same direction I was.... or I was trying to. That's why it suddenly hit me that I should have maybe ordered the ON/ON/ON switch. But I don't understand all the stuff about the poles and workings of the switch. I ordered the ON/OFF/ON switch using the logic that I wanted the middle pickup switching between OFF and two different kinds of ON, but realized maybe there's more to it than that.
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Post by newey on May 1, 2010 15:23:06 GMT -5
Ash- I must be missing something, I don't see why my latest version won't work. Good idea, and easily done. Well, Angus said he already had the center-off switch, so that's what I was trying to work with. But yes, if the switch has yet to be purchased, I'd want an on-on-on, too. Before ChrisK's demise, he and Wolf were debating whether such an on-on-on in fact exists. Wolf's website describes such a switch (version "c" on wolf's site), as opposed to the "staggered" type (wolf's version "d"). As wolf shows them: Chris said he'd never seen one like "c", Wolf said he had- and there the matter stands. All the ones I've ever bought were like "d". So, if "c" exists, where does one get one?
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 1, 2010 15:42:37 GMT -5
Yes, unfortunately I have already purchased the on/off/on switch, though it hasn't arrived yet. It's been already shipped to me by StewMac, so I can't change the order. I wrote to them describing what I want to do (bet they'll love that!) and asking if it's possible to order just that one little switch (the on/on/on) even though it doesn't touch their $30 order requirement.
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Post by JohnH on May 1, 2010 16:16:19 GMT -5
I also think that what you need is an on/on/on.
Actually, from a schematic electrical point of view (ie setting aside the physical style of switch and the connections within and around each switch), it needs two identical switches, and when you boil them down, they amount to single pole switches that select one pup/both pups/other pup.
There are three options for these switches:
1 A standard Tele switch, which is a 2 pole 3 way, with poles joined and lugs bridged, as in a standard Tele wiring diagram 2 A standard Gibson-style toggle, which is a genuine single pole on/both/on switch, and does the same job on a Gibson guitar that a Tele switch does on a Telecaster 3 An on/on/on mini-toggle, of the usually available type noted as 'D' in wolfs diagram above. This is a two pole switch, and the required single-pole on/both/on function can be achieved by bridging each pair of lugs, top, centre and bottom.
For this design, 1, 2 and 3 are interchangeable for each of the two switches required, but the Tele switch is the obvious option for the B/N main selector, and the middle selector could be a toggle of type 2 or 3.
The tele switch selects B, B+N and N, the toggle selects either the output of the tele switch, that plus middle, or middle alone.
Tone controls direct to B and N pickups is a good idea.
I can't see a way of using an on/off/on however.
cheers
John
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 1, 2010 16:58:54 GMT -5
Holy crap, JohnH! I think I get it! Thanks for getting in on this. I don't know why I couldn't wrap my brain around it before, but I think I understand what my mini-toggle (or whatever) actually needs to do. Basically.... One direction is just Middle pickup... the other gives control to the Tele 3-Way... and the middle position mixes both together... right? I don't know why I didn't see the simplicity before. I guess I was blinded by my first instinct of how I'd want/expect the mini-toggle to work that I couldn't picture how it actually did. My main purchase from Stewmac was a Tele wiring kit, so I'll have the wires and capacitors as well as switch and Tone pots I need. From my music shop suppliers I ordered Fender pickups and a Shadow kill-pot for the volume control. So the Volume knob will be a killswitch when pushed in. (I also ordered locking tuners.... but I know how to wire those.) I live in a tiny village, but I will look in the nearest town for a suitable mini-toggle. Maybe The Source/Radio Shack or a music store.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 1, 2010 17:00:56 GMT -5
Ash- I must be missing something, I don't see why my latest version won't work. Well, you've still got the output of the blade switch always connected to the hot output. I can see that you are trying to short this connection to ground to get the middle alone. Unfortunately, since it is constantly connected to the hot output, you'll short the whole darn guitar and get nothing. I don't know anything about the actual availability of any particular switch type. If there is such a thing as an SPDT on/on/on, it'd work fine. I figured out how to use the "staggered" DPDT like D above just before I read JohnH's post. I did miss the fact that he'd already ordered the switch. Unfortunately I am also not seeing how that switch is going to accomplish what we're looking for here. I'm sure we could find something else to do with it, though.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 1, 2010 18:19:54 GMT -5
I did miss the fact that he'd already ordered the switch. Unfortunately I am also not seeing how that switch is going to accomplish what we're looking for here. I'm sure we could find something else to do with it, though. Yeah, I'm not worried about wasting the switch or other parts I already ordered. I will find many more used guitars and come up with many more reasons to add switches and things to them.
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Post by newey on May 1, 2010 22:30:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I got out pen and paper and spent a good 30 minutes to convince myself of what Ash and John were saying. And they're right, no way to do it with an on-off-on.
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Post by newey on May 1, 2010 23:29:50 GMT -5
Okay, taking what John had and rendering it schematically, using Gibby toggles, I get: The symbol for the switch isn't really the correct one, just know that both are std Gibby toggles. This can be adapted to a Tele style switch as noted. And, hopefully, I've got something right for a change!
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Post by JohnH on May 2, 2010 0:45:21 GMT -5
newey - seems good to me!
On the switches, dependent on shopping opportunities it may be easier to find a gibbo type switch than an on/on/on/ At least. down here, I can buy replacement toggles for LPs easily (and also Tele and Strat switches) but have never seen an actual shop selling an actual on/on/on mini toggle - have had to get them parachuted in from overseas. I don't know if this issue is the same in Canada.
Also, for guitars, I came to the view that the three position mini toggles are just too fiddly (my opinion only). The angle change that they go through is the same as the two position ones, and they just make me annoyed trying to set them quickly. The Gibson type though go through a much larger and more positive angle change. It's a larger switch, so fitting it in a Strat needs checking, but there are equivalent asian made ones that are much more compact under the face.
John
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Post by cynical1 on May 2, 2010 8:01:37 GMT -5
You should be able to get this from Digi-Key CanadaAs far as I can tell, for a DPDT On-On-On, this one should do the trick: FYI: Image is a linkDigi-Key Part Number: CKN1132-ND Quantity Available: 1,154 Manufacturer: C&K Components Manufacturer Part Number: 7211SYZQE Description: SWITCH TOGGLE DPDT 3-WAY S-LUG Lead Free Status / RoHS Status: Lead free / RoHS Compliant All prices are in US dollars. ...which makes it good for you that our currency is in the tank... The price and conversion are now at 9.82 USD = 9.98890 CAD You're guess is as good as mine for shipping. You can always buy some new Polypropylene capacitors and dump those ceramic ones...or grab some switches for another mod to justify the freight... ChrisK turned me on to Digi-Key. They are fast, reasonable on price and shipping, plus they stock damn near everything under the sun. Their search engine has a learning curve, but once you get the hang of it it's pretty intuitive. Or, just download the PDF or interactive catalog. Hope this helps. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by newey on May 2, 2010 8:38:40 GMT -5
For completeness' sake, here's a diagram of the wiring for a Tele 3-way switch to replace the Gibby toggle if desired.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 2, 2010 9:19:12 GMT -5
Ack! Now you're back to bridge and neck both on regardless of switch position. This wants to be wired just like standard tele switching. Bridge goes to 1 and 2 on one side, neck on 2 and 3 on the other side. Both commons jumpered together and connected to the mid pickup switch. You know, like standard tele switching.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 2, 2010 9:39:47 GMT -5
I personally mistrust the Gibson style toggles and avoid them like the plague. They're too lose in their action. You can almost switch the guitar by shaking it hard. Combine that with the fairly large actuator just waiting for my picking hand to snag it mid-flail and you've got a recipe for some potentially nasty sudden tone change.
My LP has a rotary in place of the toggle (the knurled steel knob means it just hurts when I flail into it) and my Rick will be getting the same as soon as I figure out what to do with all the pots.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 2, 2010 10:38:27 GMT -5
I found I can locally get a switch for $6 called Mini lever switch 6A/125VAC. DPDT. It's at The Source, which used to be Radio Shack (not sure if that's the same everywhere or if it just changed names here.) Would this switch serve the purpose?
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Post by cynical1 on May 2, 2010 11:27:41 GMT -5
There's no details or description about this switch on their site. You might want to drop them an e-mail and see if they know what it does...
HTC1
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 2, 2010 18:36:39 GMT -5
You should be able to get this from Digi-Key CanadaYou're guess is as good as mine for shipping. You can always buy some new Polypropylene capacitors and dump those ceramic ones...or grab some switches for another mod to justify the freight... Hope this helps. Yes, thanks, that does help. Even if I don't go with them for this, that looks like a company I should know about. What I should also know about is why I would want to have polypropylene caps instead of ceramic. I know there needs to be capacitors and I know the Tele wiring kit I ordered comes with some of the correct values, but I don't really understand what they do or what materials they're made of. Is there a quick newbie-suitable explanation I can trouble you for or a page you can direct me to with the [simple] answer? I'm waiting to hear back from the music shop in the nearest city to me and from The Source about the switch they have, as well as from Stewmac. I suspect I will decide to force myself (which shouldn't be too difficult) to chose some extra parts or a neat tool from Stewmac to meet the $30 order minimum and order the switch from them. Only for the admittedly silly reason that they offer it in black. (It's a dark guitar with a dark pickguard and black knobs and I've actually bothered to order black pickguard and pickup adjustment screws... so I may as well stick with the theme going on. Otherwise I'll be even more annoyed with myself that I ordered the wrong switch to begin with, as I was pretty happy to see that they had black ones.)
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Post by newey on May 2, 2010 19:00:10 GMT -5
ARRGH! I can't blame that one on too much beer, since it was at 9:38am. Guess I'll have to go with "too little coffee". Well, now you've stepped into the mire of the "Great Capacitor Debate", ongoing installments of which can be found at a website near you. This all boils down to whether one believes that a certain type of capacitor would affect tone versus another cap of different construction, but with the same capacitance. I'll sidestep that debate, and just say that I used to use ceramic caps until ChrisK recommended the polypropylene "chiclets". His reasoning was that the polys were only a bit more expensive, but were built to tighter tolerances and would probably last longer, and be more consistent over time. He just felt that, overall, they were a better product, not that there was necessarily any audible tone difference. I switched based on his recommendation, and noticed no audible differences, FWIW. Granted, I didn't do a true A-B comparison, but no one's ever explained to my satisfaction why the type of cap should make a difference. Either it has a certain capacitance, in which case it's functioning correctly, or it doesn't, and is defective.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 2, 2010 19:57:20 GMT -5
Aside from what newey mentioned re: cap types there's also this thing called leakage current. I'm not real clear on the implications here, but I think it's kind of like having a resistor in parallel with the cap, so that some little bit of the signal gets through without being capacitated. As I understand it, the ceramics are pretty "bad" for this, as well.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 3, 2010 11:48:06 GMT -5
I heard back from Stewmac. Their ordering policy is not how I understood it... the $30 minimum is just recommended, I guess because that makes the shipping charges more worthwhile for the customer. So I'm just going to order the black on/on/on switch from them as I should have done at first when I ordered the on/off/on. Not that I'd normally worry about $30... it's just that I've already ordered a little more than I can justify spending at this time with the new pickups and tuners and such.
So, thanks to Newey's schematics and everyone else's input... and considering there haven't been any objections to his revised schematics... I guess everything is sorted out. It might be a couple weeks still until I get all the parts (the volcano delayed some things) but I will be letting you know how it goes.
At this time I only have one more question... a big scary one: Do y'all see the merits and my attraction to this control plan I came up with.... or would more experienced modders and players like yourselves consider this a silly idea? Or is something like this so subjective that anything goes as long as the guitar makes sense to the owner/player? Or... is it better I don't ask?
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Post by ashcatlt on May 3, 2010 13:20:06 GMT -5
I think it's a perfectly reasonable idea. I don't know for sure about your tone controls. I'd probably just go with master tone, but it almost makes sense to have one "submaster" tone for the bridge and neck, with the other across the middle.
Newey's most recent scheme is fine, being exactly standard tele wiring.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 3, 2010 13:53:30 GMT -5
I think it's a perfectly reasonable idea. I don't know for sure about your tone controls. I'd probably just go with master tone, but it almost makes sense to have one "submaster" tone for the bridge and neck, with the other across the middle. That would be good or I imagine what would be the best is to have a tone control for each, but I'm not really planning to use the middle pickup very much. I figure that a lot of people go with the standard of having no tone control on the bridge pickup, so I can deal with not having it on the middle. I'd probably be fine having only 2 pickups like on my Les Paul, but since there is a middle pickup I may as well wire it in for special occasions. I guess I like the idea of being able to pre-set the tone controls of my 2 "main" pickups and switch between them. I will be using ceramic disc capacitors because that seems to be all they have at Stewmac and because I probably don't need to be worrying about the differences between the materials if it's something under debate. Sounds like something to worry about a little ways down the road. I'm planning to use a .05 cap for the neck and a .02 for the bridge. Does that sound right?
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 15, 2010 10:26:05 GMT -5
I think I just found a very cool website. I always feel like I'm on the verge of understanding everything clearly... then within minutes I'm lost in a sea of WTF. One day things will click. I want to be able to quickly [and super-ingeniously] rewire the used guitars I find and also be able to offer the kind of advice I've been receiving here. This could be basic stuff for most regulars around here, but it looks nicely laid-out and well labelled. I thought I should offer a link because it's probably a good resource for people who might find it here. www.guitarnucleus.com/wiring.htmlI wish I had found it first... so hopefully someone else will find this recommendation when they need it. I like forums like this because people can get/give individual help... and the record remains as an ever-evolving online reference. I know I've been helped by a lot of things I've found here and on other forums, which have saved me from having to ask questions myself.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 15, 2010 19:45:27 GMT -5
Ok, here's what I did. As in, already did. I'd post a photo of the actual wiring but it's probably easier to see how everything's connected on this. Can someone please let me know if there's an obvious problem? Thanks. Is it OK to do what I've done with the ground for the volume pot? I just have it connected to a tone pot. Can I also ground the tremolo claw to the volume pot (it's closest) and ground the pickups to the metal on the 3-way switch? That seems like it'd be the neatest way and I think it should work... but will it? (My photo doesn't show it, but the wire from the volume pot to the output jack is shielded. The shielding is soldered to the ground on the volume pot.) Thanks again for all the schematics and advice. With everything I've been reading here and elsewhere, I got kinda confused. But I think I finally started understanding how things work. ....I think.
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