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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 8, 2010 10:27:15 GMT -5
If this has been covered somewhere on the forum... please direct me to the correct thread.
I'd like to know if anyone can recommend a YouTube video or something about subtle use of the whammy bar. All I can find are examples of crazy freaked-out techniques. I want to see somebody doing something nice and subtle. Basically using the vibrato bar for vibrato, not motorcycle sounds, etc.
Not that I'm not amazed by the Satriani and heavy metal stuff, it's just not really my thang. I found a video of Mark Knopfler speaking a little bit about his use of the bar and it's like a different philosophy. I like the idea of using it to add little nuances, where the resulting music is colourful and somewhat mysterious... where ya wonder what a person is doing rather than instantly realizing they're doing something funky with a whammy bar.
I think the video I saw was called Master Class with Mark Knopfler. He's giving tips to 3 young guitarists. Very interesting. I've never been into his music but seeing a few videos like that I've come to think of him as some kind of wiseman. Very cool and obviously genuine person.
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Post by ijustwannastrat on May 8, 2010 10:53:56 GMT -5
Here.Don't feel bad. I've done it too. Edit: BTW, nice find Google.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 8, 2010 12:48:19 GMT -5
I've seen the Mark Knopfler videos. I just want to know if anyone can recommend any other videos from other people with subtle whammy techniques. I offered the name and description of the videos as a sort of recommendation for others who haven't seen them. They're really worth watching. But he only touches on the whammy bar briefly (in his lesson, I mean... but maybe also in his playing. ha ha.) and I want something a little more in-depth.
That "Let Me Google..." service is cute, though. Never seen that before.
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Post by ijustwannastrat on May 8, 2010 18:23:14 GMT -5
Rereading your message, it becomes clear.
I suppose the rule "measure thrice, one cut will suffice" could be transposed to fit the forums.
Also, I watched all three videos without getting bored. I was really interested in his ideas and theories.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 9, 2010 8:12:14 GMT -5
LOL... ok, Wannastrat, now I need you to Google something for me... Well, I don't really because I've tried googling it... but it's kinda funny this would come up...
I was watching another Mark Knopfler video, an interview called "In Profile [Part 1]" and I thought I'd mention it to you after you said you enjoyed the other one... but there doesn't seem to be a Part 2, though the information says it's in three parts and there is a Part 3. It isn't what I was looking for when I started this thread, but probably interesting for a lot of guitarists.
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Post by sumgai on May 9, 2010 12:13:27 GMT -5
BAY,
I found all three vids on YouTube:
Part 1 -
Part 2 -
Part 3 -
HTH
sumgai
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 9, 2010 21:54:10 GMT -5
I cause a lot of confusion. Sorry. I found and watched all 3 of those Master Class videos before starting this thread. One I can't find is called In Profile [Part 2.] But I only really mentioned that as a joke because Iwannastrat already thought I was asking for someone to help me find the Master Class videos. What I was really looking for were other videos about whammy bar technique, but not heavy metal or special effects sounds. Just wondered if anyone could recommend a YouTube video (or DVD or book or whatever) about using the whammy bar for subtle bluesy stuff. I should have probably posted this in the Theory and Technique section... but I saw this section about whammy bars and figured it could be posted in either but this is where the people who are into whammy bars would surely find it.
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Post by newey on May 9, 2010 22:27:04 GMT -5
While I don't have any specific links for you, apart from Knopfler the other guys who might be able to teach a thing or two about a "shimmering" vibrato are the Surf Rock guys. I'd google about for "surf tremolo bar technique" or some such. "Tremolo" because, well, that's what Leo called it . . .
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Post by sumgai on May 10, 2010 2:10:57 GMT -5
BAY, When you said: ....... It isn't what I was looking for when I started this thread, but probably interesting for a lot of guitarists. ..... I should have been looking at the rest of your message too. But like you, I found that there seems to be a dearth of Part Two of the In Profile interviews. MegaUpload, Rapidshare and that ilk seem to have it, according to Google, but I don't go to those kinds of sites, so I can't speak to the veracity of Google's findings. Still and all, the three Master Class videos of MK are worth noting for posterity. sumgai
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Post by sydsbluesky on May 10, 2010 5:18:13 GMT -5
Sure, sometimes it's great to take the butcher's word for it, but once in a while isn't it nice to just stick your head up the bull's butt anyway?
Use the thing. See what sounds good. I'm sure MK isn't parroting a youtube vid he saw when he was young, right? The vids are always nice, don't get me wrong. But they're the least important part of the process IMnsHO.
I mean... I know it isn't exactly the answer you seek, but that doesn't make it any less true!
Go forth and shimmer.
EDIT: *scoffs* I didn't type butt.
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Post by gumbo on May 10, 2010 8:02:53 GMT -5
B-A-Y.... ...you could do worse than observe the technique of the venerable Hank Marvin (who just happened to be a big influence on MK, BTW)
...yes, I know that dates me, but I'm too old to care..
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 10, 2010 13:17:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions. I will check out Hank Marvin and some surf stuff. I've never really paid much attention to surf music. I did recently get some Ventures records, but I haven't listened to them yet. I liked the cover on the one called Walk Don't Run.
Yeah, I know I should just be messing around with it like with everything else. But I have found videos on so many techniques that have always told something interesting. So I thought I'd ask because my guitar that has a whammy bar is currently in pieces, plus I'm visiting my Mom for Mother's Day and don't have any guitar here. Very sad. So I need to watch other people play guitar to quench my obsession a little. Lick Library is a great series of videos. (I don't have the tremolo one yet, though.)
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Post by sumgai on May 10, 2010 16:26:52 GMT -5
I liked the cover on the one called Walk Don't Run. gumbo thinks he's old, but I know I am - - I went to high school with the girl you're drooling over on the album cover of Walk Don't Run. (The original album from 1960, not the 1964 version.) Sorry that didn't help....... sumgai
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 10, 2010 17:29:59 GMT -5
I love how they're stumbling all over each other but it really looks like they're carefully holding their instruments up in safety.
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Post by sydsbluesky on May 10, 2010 18:27:05 GMT -5
Well then I guess that makes sense... but really... you go places without a guitar? I even leave guitars at my friend's houses so I have something to play while I'm visiting... drinking... At least the ones that let me stash an acoustic in their closets...
At least travel with the kazoo!
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Post by ashcatlt on May 11, 2010 1:29:28 GMT -5
I'm afraid I can't help with videos, and it's not really all that subtle, but Kevin Shields is well known for his unconventional use of the vibrato on his Jaguar. Basically, he sets it up real loose and holds it while strumming to get a strange kind of warble. I've never really cared to try very hard to emulate it, and I don't think it works nearly as well with Strat-style whammy's but...
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I've read around here sumbody talking about an interesting technique where he rests his hand on the bridge and uses palm heel pressure for vibrato without touching the bar at all.
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Post by sydsbluesky on May 11, 2010 2:08:57 GMT -5
Before I eventually blocked mine I used it without an arm for two or so years, on that thought... It was one of those cheap-o FRs on an ESP. It let me go both ways a bit, and that was about as far as I could go without the thing going a little nutzo on me anyway... it never made it into a show, but it was tolerably useful.
I lost it, btw... the arm.
Ash -
That actually sounds quite interesting, but I seem to remember getting drastically different pitch variations from one string to the next on mine, so trying to set up a bridge loose to bring up all the strings together evenly seems difficult... At the very LEAST it would mean a dedicated guitar. Studio trick, but possibly a useful one.
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Post by sumgai on May 11, 2010 3:06:27 GMT -5
Jesse, ..... Basically, he sets it up real loose and holds it while strumming to get a strange kind of warble. I've never really cared to try very hard to emulate it, and I don't think it works nearly as well with Strat-style whammy's but...
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I've read around here sumbody talking about an interesting technique where he rests his hand on the bridge and uses palm heel pressure for vibrato without touching the bar at all. That actually sounds quite interesting, but I seem to remember getting drastically different pitch variations from one string to the next on mine, so trying to set up a bridge loose to bring up all the strings together evenly seems difficult.... The problem there is, each string is resting at a slightly different tension. If you manipulate the tailpiece in order to change the pitch, you are applying force to one piece of steel (hopefully not pot metal!), which in turn is applied equally to each of the strings. Since they are not equally tight to begin with, they respond differently to your applied force - all will go looser or tighter, but some will do so more noticably. All other things being equal, the lower gauge strings will probably exhibit the least amount of pitch shift, compared to the larger diameter strings. At least that's the way it plays out on my axe. (Standard gauge 10-46 strings.) And warble can be cool. In fact, I'd liken it to a gentle chorus effect, one where you can control both the speed and depth by hand, at will. Granted, this does constrict one's picking lane, but for most things, it's an enhancement to a particular tonality, and I'm not locked into it. I only tap into it when The Muse dictates. And yes, I could put the arm in there and make like a Hank Marvin wannabe, but I'm a palm-muter from way back, and that pesky arm just gets in my way. It stays in a box under the bed, along with all the original case candy. Resale value and all that. HTH sumgai
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 11, 2010 10:43:39 GMT -5
... you go places without a guitar? Yeah... and it proved to be a big regret. I figured I'm only gone two days and I've definitely gone that long without playing guitar when I'm too busy with work... so why bother carrying it? My computer will entertain me. Wasn't thinking about the fact that I need to be very busy to resort to not playing my guitar... and I'm not very busy here. Here I'm kinda bored. Here I should have a guitar. I won't do this again.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 11, 2010 11:14:54 GMT -5
I found this video explaining some interesting trem setup points. Mostly, to slant the claw at the back of the guitar seems to make a lot of sense.
(I really hate how so many YouTube videos lately are missing the slider at the bottom to skip ahead or replay a few seconds.)
Also... I did find some pretty cool Hank Marvin stuff!
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Post by sumgai on May 11, 2010 13:28:07 GMT -5
BAY, Give me a few moments to test Carl's "theory" for myself. I'm going that far only because he had the audacity to use the word "physics" early on. My gut reaction is "uh uh", but I think it's time to check it out in the real world, not in the world of my mind. BRB sumgai
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Post by JohnH on May 11, 2010 15:50:16 GMT -5
Heres a link to some string tensions: www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T3.htmlMy understanding is that strings a approximately sized so that each has about the same tension, but in practice, depending on your range of sizes, there is some variations and the 10/46 set listed there has a bit more on the lower strings. i use 10/52, so that would be more. I think it is probably a bit better to get spring tension in the same proportion to the nearest strings, but it cant make much difference, since they are all combined, it is the total string tesnion being balanced by the total spring tension. Thee is only one pivot. In principle, when you wham, you make an equal % change in each string length and strain. If you have a set where all string tensions are equal, then they should all stay in tune when you pull u[p or push down just theories... john
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Post by sydsbluesky on May 11, 2010 16:57:41 GMT -5
For the sake of clarity, when I said "difficult" it was aimed more at "impossible."
My experience was the same as you said. I would dip a bit on the bridge and the low E would go aflop and the 1st would drop maybe a full step... but nice to have this verified.
I'd like to see Mr. Shields perform this little trick in the real world. It doesn't sound very likely to me that it would work like all that.
Sounds like something I can do with my pedal in the digital realm...
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Post by sumgai on May 11, 2010 18:04:01 GMT -5
John, Thanks for that. I didn't want to start spouting off about physics and such, but I too feel that since we have only one pivot plane (two pivot points), then it's gonna be rather difficult to change the angular momentum, for any reason, let alone individual spring tension. But still, I'll check it out, just to be thorough. I also note that GHS strings used to (and maybe still does, for all I know) list each string's tension right on the package. Don't know if anyone else ever did, or does, this. ~!~!~!~!~!~ Jesse, In the digital realm. Hehehehe.... Since I'm using a Roland VG-88, where each string has its own pickup (and at that, said tiny pickup is a humbucker - 12 coils under one hood!), I can program the unit to "bend" each string differently, per pedal press. I can even program the pedal's response curve so that it takes the second string up for 2 half- step, and the third string down 3 half-steps - at the same time. And to top it off, the second string bend all occurs over the 1 st third of the pedal's travel, and the third string's bend occurs over the last half of the pedal's travel. That let's me stop part way through the pedal's travel, for different effects. Makes for some very nice C&W steel guitar licks, I here to tell you. Oh, and that's all on just one patch. The next patch lets me ...... Oh. I can see you haven't yet picked up your jaw off the floor. Go ahead, I can wait...... HTH sumgai
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Post by sydsbluesky on May 11, 2010 18:52:02 GMT -5
Yes, your digital realm is quite epic... to say the least.
But even assuming that Kevin Shields is doing this thing we've discussed and determined to be odd, at the very least, then a standard octave shifter with an expression pedal will do it. This is what I have, and here's how I'm doing it:
Since we seem to agree that setting the strings "loose" and then bending them up to pitch isn't likely, try something less drastic. I'm setting my expression pedal to -1 octave, and playing a chord with the pedal at full heel, so no effect is applied. As I strum the chord, I go slightly toe on the pedal, causing the pitch to drop a slight amount. As I do this, I also use my bar to pull back on my FR (I had to unblock it to do this... and when I say "bar" I really mean allen wrench I stuffed in there for the test) which brings it back to pitch, but with a slight warble, of course, as I jostle the bar a bit with my strumming hand.
Basically I'm just emulating string slack instead of actually using slack strings, so it sounds much like I imagine Mr. Shields's technique would.
Problem is that this isn't the best octave effect in the world, which causes some rather odd interactions along the line.
Of course another option is to just... warble the thing with your floating bridge in the first place... I still haven't heard Mr. Shields do this, so I don't know where I'm aiming.
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Post by JohnH on May 11, 2010 19:47:33 GMT -5
Thinking further (risky!)
I think we do expect, a high strings to change pitch by less in terms of semi-tones, than a lower string, for a given angle of whamming. This applies to, say 1, 2 and 3 string which are all plain wire. They will all go through the same change in length, and will all have the same stress change, but this will result in a greater change in force on the thicker strings, due to their greater cross section area. Since they are set for about the same initial force, there is a greater % change in force on the thicker string, hence greater % change in frequency.
Between 1, 2, 3 and 4, 5, 6, the strings are different construction and different mass to stiffness, so predictions are more difficult.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 11, 2010 22:16:15 GMT -5
I think that I may have misrepresented or misinterpreted the Kevin Shields thing. When I said he sets it up loose, I meant the bar itself. Actually, not that I think of it, I've read that it's just a "feature" of the Jaguar whammy that the bar is all loose. Doesn't screw in like most others. Likes to fall out when you don't want it to.
Really, from what I know, he just holds the thing in his hand as he strums. Nothing too terribly scientific about it. This is My Bloody Valentine we're talking about. Precision has nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure he doesn't really care whether the low E goes further than the high E.
I've tried to emulate this with a Digitech Whammy pedal without much success. My new vibrato pedal actually does a much better job when I set the speed appropriately for the tempo I'm playing.
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Post by sumgai on May 11, 2010 22:33:11 GMT -5
A. Who's K. Shields? And what's he do that warrants mention herein? B. I also have a Digitech Whammy pedal, built in as a part of an older RP series pedal. It can do sophisticated things, but it's not nearly as adaptable as the Roland. This stems from the fact that the Roland uses no less that six circuits, one for each string, which gives me all that latitude. But the Digitech, and others like it, are all meant to operate from one signal source, not six. They can still do amazing things tough, don't mistake me as putting them down. However...... ash, I think that you're limited (like I am) to setting certain intervals. The only setting that allows "over and under" pitch tones is the 1 Octave Down to 1 Octave Up. The problem there is, I can't always get to "proper pitch" in the middle of the pedal's travel. Thus warbling with this kind of unit is not so easy. Probably can be done, by someone who invests the time, effort, and practices a lot, but that's not for me! But I must ask, since I don't have the Detune options, do either of those selections work for you in this scenario? sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on May 12, 2010 0:56:51 GMT -5
A. Kevin Shields is the guy from My Bloody Valentine. As I've said, he plays with his wang bar in hand while strumming, which causes a strange kind of otherworldly warble. Of course, the reverse reverb and extreme distortion helps a bit... I mentioned it because we were talking about using a vibrato bar for something other than dive bombs. I'm starting to feel like I've derailed the thread with this. Sorry about that.
B. I have a couple big problems with my Digitech pedal.
The biggest issue is the pedal itself. I think it's a little too small, set at a bit of a strange angle, and doesn't have a particularly smooth travel. It doesn't feel good to my foot. With my Vox wah, I can "ride" it and get some pretty subtle stuff happening. Just can't get the Digitech to do the same kind of thing. Maybe if I actually spent some serious time getting used to it, I could get over this, but it's so uncomfortable and dissatisfying that I just don't even want to bother.
The other issue I think stems from the fact that mine is a Bass Whammy. It seems to be designed for monophonic input. It's really great at tracking, and it's pitch shift is pretty convincingly natural sounding. I have used it with pretty good results in a "set and forget" manner to emulate bass guitar from a 6 string. In fact, I prefer it to my Boss pitch shifter for this kind of thing. Unfortunately it doesn't do chords. Play more than one note and you can hear it trying to decide which one it wants to reproduce, and changing its mind throughout the duration.
I personally have disabled the vibrato on every guitar I've owned. Trying to tune one of these things is about the worst form of torture I can imagine. Subtle vibrato comes from my fingers. More extreme versions are special effects, and come from pedals. Sometimes, though, I'll apply pressure to the R on my Rickenbacker.
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Post by sydsbluesky on May 12, 2010 2:39:38 GMT -5
Ahh... That makes more sense. I guess we took that pretty far without any feedback.
And yes, trying to change the stings on a double locking bridge is punishment from above in different clothing. Both my FR and my Leo clone are locked down tight.
Okay, well... What is the verdict on what "I call it a Wang bar" guy in the vid says about slanting the claw?
I guess it's okay that he calls it a wang bar... but if you hear a guy saying that he's going to play a diddle with his wang... Well, I'll leave your thoughts up to you.
My thoughts, however, I will express.
Pretty good guitarist, but maybe he should leave the naming of his first born up to his wife.
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