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Post by JFrankParnell on May 23, 2010 17:15:14 GMT -5
Reading about the ToneMonster, I loved the idea of having 2 channels set and ready to play. But, I thought, what if you did 2 super switches, double barrel style, and a 4PDT, and have more options to choose from for each channel. I set this up with a master vol for both channels, but a tone each, per channel. I could have two volumes i guess. Welp, I think I have the rhythm channel figured out. I'm stuck on the lead channel, how to get N*M. But, I'm new nut, so please, check my math on both of these. LOL, prolly both of em are messed up, afaik.
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Post by wolf on May 23, 2010 17:58:10 GMT -5
If I follow you correctly, you are going to use two Super Switches plus a 4PDT switch? That's going to take up a lot of extra space. Here's a photo of the 4PDT next to a DPDT: I'm guessing that a Super Switch would take up the same space as the 5-way switch. Now imagine squeezing another Super Switch and the 4PDT into the guitar. That's quite a lot to fit in there. Also, you are using 2 Super Switches to get only 1 extra tone (N + M * B) from the guitar yet you are losing (N + M + M) (N*M*B) (M + B in phase) and maybe some others. Do you really want this as opposed to the Tone Monster (Super Strat) wiring?
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 23, 2010 18:38:19 GMT -5
whoa, that *is* big. But i dont get why you say i only get one extra tone? maybe i didnt explain that the two diagrams each represent a different super switch. My goal was to get the following two sets of 5 sounds, denpending on the 4pdt: either or N N*M N+M N*B oop N+B N+M*B N+B oop B*M B B I used + for paralell and * for series So, i lose M and M+B, no problem. And, Its fine to have B on both channels, i can see using one with tone down, and one at 10
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Post by wolf on May 23, 2010 22:01:28 GMT -5
Okay with the Tone Monster you get (bold lettering indicates tones in common with your wiring)
Neck, Middle & Bridge single coils - 3 sounds
PARALLEL - Neck and Middle; Neck and Bridge; Middle and Bridge - 3 sounds PARALLEL (Out of Phase) - N & M ; N & B
SERIES - Neck and Middle; Neck and Bridge; Middle and Bridge SERIES (Out of Phase) - N & M ; N & B
PARALLEL - All 3 coils PARALLEL All 3 coils - Neck out of phase
SERIES - All 3 coils SERIES - All 3 coils - Neck out of phase
That totals 17 and your wiring yields eight sounds plus one additional sound (N + M * B) So, you miss out on these nine tones:
Middle alone Middle and Bridge in Parallel Neck and Middle in Parallel Out of Phase Neck & Bridge In Series Neck & Middle In Series Out Of Phase All 3 coils in Parallel All 3 coils in Parallel (Neck Out of Phase) All 3 coils in Series All 3 coils in Series (Neck Out of Phase)
just to get one additional sound (N + M * B).
To me that is a lot of work to gain one sound and lose nine others.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 24, 2010 0:49:31 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely, Wolf. There's tons of sounds that i wont get. My point is, thats ok. Cuz I will have an operational ease of use that's going to be really cool i think. The whole 2 channel idea is going to be really useful, I mean, prolly lots of us have a 2 channel set up on our amps. And, the 9 sounds of my proposed wiring, times whatever tone pot variations, times my Tonelab's umpteen amp models and umpteen cab models, plus i could do a phase switch...lol, you do the math ;D Well, that's if i have this wiring scheme designed right. And I still havent figured out the N*M.
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Post by wolf on May 24, 2010 1:05:59 GMT -5
Wow, if you are happy with just the 9 sounds then that's fine. (Heck it is your guitar). Sorry for not checking out the wiring diagram. Actually, I don't like trying to follow the circuits of 5 way switches. (I'm much better with toggle switches). Well, if nothing else, you've learned how huge that 4PDT switch is.
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Post by JohnH on May 24, 2010 5:22:32 GMT -5
I think I get the idea of where you are going: is this right?
You are using the 4pdt to try to disconnect the pickups from one 5-way switch, and reconnect them to the second 5-way, so that you can preset each 5 way and have up to 10 tones (or 9 as you have listed), and quickly change between them with the toggle?
I see two problems with your first set of drawings. One is that the three pups each have two wires so there are up six potential conections that need to be considered when changing the 4pdt. In parallel mode, one end of each pup can be grounded, as in normal Strat wiring. But in series mode, if you want a full choice of combinations, only one pup can have a permanently grounded wire, because if you have two pups with grounded wires, you cannot then put those two in series, and your wish list includes all three pairs of pups in series. That is why you are having trouble finding M*N, because you show each with a grounded wire. To get around this would need a 5 pole switch, but only 4 pole toggles are available.
There is a way round it, following the path you are taking, in which one pup has its hot wire permanently to hot (suggest B), another has a ground wire permanently grounded (suggest M), and the third, being that which gets phase changed, has both wires switched (suggest N)
With this starting point, it is possible to have all of your options, with the slightly undesirable condition (that we usually try to avoid) that the bridge, when off, is still connected to hot – this ‘hanging hot’ condition may result in a slight extra tendency to pickup up noise when B is not used, so I suggest a good shielding job on the guitar to compensate. This issue does not affect basic tone however.
From the 4pdt, you will then take the four switched wires to your super-switches, and with four poles, one for each switched wire, should be able to make any option you need.
As Wolf says – it is quite a lot of large switches, so check you cavity size first!
(Not to divert you, but If you decide to step back from that, the Strat ‘Dual Sound’ design that I posted in schematics does all of those sounds, plus all the others that Wolf listed, and you can change using just a toggle from any of the normal 5 Strat sounds, to a useful preset selection out of 3 series sounds. But to get other sounds including Oop and B/N combos etc, you engage one or two other push/pull switches. So your version gives you a greater range of what you can do just with the toggle, while mine gives you most of that, and uses other switches to get more. It also uses a standard Strat 5 way, and fits easily in a Strat cavity.)
Cheers
John.
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Post by newey on May 24, 2010 5:43:24 GMT -5
Jfrank-
There are several issues with the diagram:
On the "Lead" setting, you don't have N*M at position 1, as you noted. But you also don't have (N+M)*B at position 3, nor do you have N+(M*B), if the latter is what you intended. At position 3, your mid pup is shorted to ground through the neck pup, and the neck pup is in series with the bridge.
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Post by gumbo on May 24, 2010 8:37:38 GMT -5
Just a thought..it may be easier (??) to substitute a Fender S-1 switch for your 4PDT..might just leave a bit more room for your super-switches...but then, it IS late here.. :-)
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 24, 2010 13:00:17 GMT -5
Exactamundo Or in other words, Each super switch has 5 options, and the 4PDT switches between the 2 choices. ok, couple new diagrams, with wiring as JohnH suggests. Now, I'm not sure about what's in phase or not. In fact, as usual, I'm not sure about any of it
edited-pics should show up better now
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Post by newey on May 24, 2010 15:08:07 GMT -5
On the Rhythm diagram, position 4 is N*B OOP, not N+B OOP, as you have listed.
On the Lead diagram, at Pos. 2, the "Neck +" lead isn't connected to anything. Lug #2 on the Neck + pole needs to be grounded.
On the Lead diagram, at Position 3, I don't know what you have, but it's not N+ (M*B). For starters, the "Neck -" pole is unconnected.
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Post by JohnH on May 24, 2010 15:34:04 GMT -5
for some reason, I cant see the new diagrams, and also the first of the previous ones has gone. I dont know why
John
EDIT ps - now I can see the lead picture, but not Rythym. You have both N and M grounded so will not get N*M. My suggestion was, N gets the phase control (B+Noop = Boop+N), B has one wire directly to volume hot, M get one wired grounded.
J
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 24, 2010 16:21:31 GMT -5
bahh, sorry guys about the diagrams. Should i just stick to one (well, two) diagram at the top and update it as i go? Or keep posting revisions as well? I think I've addressed Newey's items:
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 24, 2010 18:18:23 GMT -5
hmm, i dont like the looks of this... seems like there's going to be an ish with both tone controls? (dont worry about spacing, the pots will be stacked. Because of the B+ going straight to the volumes? There's going to be tone leak or volume leak?
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Post by JohnH on May 25, 2010 15:39:42 GMT -5
I still cant see any of the diagrams, except the second one in the first post - FYI. I dont know why. Your photos come through fine.
John
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 25, 2010 17:22:14 GMT -5
sry, John please try again, or here it is another way:
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Post by newey on May 25, 2010 18:52:48 GMT -5
JohnH-
I see all his diagrams just fine. Must be an Antipodes glitch!
j frank-
At position 3 on the lead switch, you still don't have N+(M*B). I'm not sure, but your neck isn't in parallel, it appears to be in series with both the mid and neck pickups.
You also haven't clarified whether you want N+(M*B) or (N+M)*B at that position. I've been assuming the former.
Whether that would sound different than what you want I don't know. But there is an easy solution to get N+(M*B). Just run the neck+ from lug #3 straight to the Vol pot.
The rest of the switching looks OK to me, but I'm often wrong on this stuff, so let's let someone else peek at it before you fire up the iron.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 25, 2010 21:28:27 GMT -5
afa the pics, i was exporting from Illustrator in cmyk accidently, but it shouldnt matter, really, <shrug>. Are you sure Newey? It seems like pos. 3 is N and M grounds are grounded N and M hots go to B- and B+ is permanently hooked to the Volume. Now, do i want N+(M*B) or (N+M)*B? Well, I'm not sure there is a difference, and either way is fine with me. Could do N*M*B in that spot if it would work better, I just picked that combo off some other circuit to fill the Lead 3 spot. I'm open to suggestion on that one. And the fact that the B+ goes to both volumes (and therefore both tones?) looks OK to you? appreciate you guys helpin'
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Post by newey on May 25, 2010 22:10:30 GMT -5
As far as the pots are concerned, I don't know the answer to that. It may be an issue, but let's put that aside for a bit . . .
In position 3 on the Lead switch, let's assume you want N+(M*B). This means that you'll be connecting the B and M in series, and then connecting the N in parallel with the series pair.
The B is wired in series with the M, so we've got the series pair all set. Let's look at the neck at position 3Lead:
The N- goes to ground. Start tracing the signal flow from there. The N- goes to the Lead/rhythm switch, and thence to the neck pickup, through the coil, and out the N+.
The N + then is connected to Lug 3 on the Lead superswitch, and jumpered to both position 3 on the M+ and to B-. From M+ it goes through the M pup coil and to ground. This particular circuit is grounded at both ends, shorting the neck pickup. So far, our neck pickup hasn't connected to the output . . .
But the N+ is also connected to B-, from where it goes through the B coil, out the B + and on to the Vol pot. Hooray, we're connected!
But we're not connected in parallel, but rather in series, since the neck pup only makes connection through the Bridge pup. We have (B*M)+(N*B), I think.
As noted, this may not sound appreciably different than N+(B*M). However, this particular configuration also has the N grounded out through the M pup. That will be loading the N coil, not sure that's something you want to do.
No, I'm not. But I'm pretty sure. Again, the solution is just to move the N+ from lug 3 to the Vol pot. Whether that screws up your pot set-up here, or whether that's even an issue to begin with, I'll leave for others.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 25, 2010 23:21:11 GMT -5
Ok, Newey, I see it now, thanks. Edited below. still looking for more eyes on the 2 vol 2 tone sitch. Each vol/tone pair should control either the Lead or Rhythm channel. But since I had to wire B+ straight to both volumes, it seems like both volumes/tones are going to control both channels which is not what i want. latest:
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Post by newey on May 26, 2010 5:32:56 GMT -5
jfp-
I think that's got it, but again, let's wait for confirmation. As I look at it again, rather than run N+ lug 3Lead to the Vol, you can simply jumper it to N+ lug 1Lead.
And as I look at it some more, I think you're right about the pots. Not sure what to do about that, though.
EDIT:Only thing I can come up with would be to use a 6PDT switch for the Rhythm/Lead switch. The other 2 poles would then select which of the 2 sets of V and T pots would be active.
Problem is, no one makes a 6PDT toggle switch, AFAIK. There are 6PDT slide switches and pushbutton switches, but all the ones I've seen are for PCB mounting, with pins instead of lugs for soldering. This makes using these tough.
A 6PDT rotary could be used; whether that would worsen your fitment woes I don't know- but it probably would. Although the 4P toggle is a lump itself, too.
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Post by JohnH on May 26, 2010 5:36:49 GMT -5
Great! now I can see them!
I had a quick trace through all the switch settings and I think what you show above will do what you list it should do.
For you middle lead setting, involving all three pickups in a series/parallel combo, you have lots of choices. You might like to consider two options that are humcancelling and in-phase (most 3 coil combos are not so) M*(N+B) M+(N*B)
The first of those is likely to be louder, the second will be brighter - but I don't know what they really sound like - worth a try IMO though
Now, on your volume and tones - those separate controls are heading for misery - there are no spare switch poles to separate them properly. I suggest a master volume, and either a master tone plus a separate neck tone (wired directly across the N pup), or dedicated M and N tones, as on a normal strat. In your series modes, particularly the Oop one, you'd get very wide variation by controlling that neck tone control - well worth having (again, IMO)
cheers
John
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 26, 2010 13:48:42 GMT -5
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 26, 2010 14:31:02 GMT -5
Tiny little 4pdt toggle from Tyco. www.tycoelectronics.com/catalog/bin/TE.Connect?C=15855&M=PPROP&P=83230,83246&BML=10576,16354,13873&LG=1&PG=1&IDS=122189,122202,384547,122217,384552,122318,126107,122581&N=4 But, I digress I'll make a new thread about all the crazy switches I've found in my quest.
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Post by newey on May 26, 2010 16:02:41 GMT -5
As I indicated, those are all for mounting to a PCB. They could be used, but soldering to those pins is tricky at best. Mounting them to a pickguard is another issue. It looks like the one from Tyco has 2 threaded holes for mounting to the underside of a panel, though.
You could, of course, make a custom board to mount one of those slide switches onto, making the traces you need to wire it up. But lots of work and probably not as durable as a regular solder lug connection.
If you are wedded to the individual Vol and tone pots, and are unwilling to try John's suggestion, I think a rotary is the way to go, pending working out its fitment, of course.
Another possibility is to use the 4PDT and a separate DPDT, and mount a bar across both toggles so that both are actuated at once. I've seen this done, but I've not tried it myself so I can't tell you how tricky that might be to fabricate. And it might not be so hot aesthetically.
Or just mount the 2 switches right next to one another, and just know that you have to switch both at once to get your pots to work.
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Post by JohnH on May 26, 2010 16:38:17 GMT -5
Another thought..
Is it worth exploring what could be done by releasing one pole of the 4pdt to use to switch output from your two volume pots? That would allow them to be properly independent and leave 3 poles for pickup coil selection to transfer between the 5-ways. This will impose some constraints on the combos that can be found, but should still give a good range of options. Would need to consider further to be sure though
John
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 26, 2010 16:57:53 GMT -5
If you are wedded to the individual Vol and tone pots, Yes I am, but dont tell my fiance IRL ;D Yeah, JohnH, I had considered that, but i think I'd lose all the series combos, or have to permanently serialize some combos. I ordered some 6pdt so, we'll see how this all shakes out. I'll update here
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Post by JohnH on May 26, 2010 17:11:19 GMT -5
OK, well with those two extra poles, you can use one to switch the pots and the other to avoid that niggling 'hanging from hot' issue, and still have a completely free choice of combinations in each bank. All good John
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Post by ashcatlt on May 26, 2010 17:30:27 GMT -5
Well, the switches have already been ordered, but FYI. The Alpha switches that I use everywhere do come in a 6PDT config on a single deck. Here from mouser. They're not a whole lot bigger in diameter than a full sized pot. The round shaft will not fit a standard sized knob, and requires a slightly bigger knob w/set screw.
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Post by newey on May 26, 2010 21:50:07 GMT -5
JohnH suggested a rethinking: I think it is worth exploring, despite the fact that Jfrank already has some 6P switches on the way. I had a different thought- which may not work, but I thought I'd run it up the ol' flagpole to see how many potshots it drew. As currently wired, the originally-proposed 4PDT switch was choosing pickup connections for the 2 5-way Superswitches. What if you put the 4PDT "downstream" of the 2 5-way switches, so that it was "switching between the switches", so to speak? I'm thinking the pickups get wired to the 2 superswitches first, in their series and parallel configurations. Then the 4P switch chooses which of the superswitches is active (2 poles) and which V & T pots are selected (the other 2 poles)? Or would that have a problem , in that you'd be "double wiring" the pickups to 2 separate switches, loading the selected pups with the full resistance of both switches' selections?
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