SG Electronics

[maxcalibur]

Now I've finished my Marlin MicroCrush (see the Guitars board), I'm onto the next project. I've bought an SG body and although it needs some minor repairs I'll soon be starting work on it.

I've been having a look at standard 2 pickup SG wiring schemes and was wondering if anyone knew of one that was better than any others. I don't have any parts yet, even pickups, but both the pickups on this body are slightly closer to the neck than a normal SG so I might want to compensate for that in picking pickups, capacitors and pots that give a slightly brighter sound.

[JohnH]

Hi Max - are you looking for a simple scheme with just the narmal functionality, or do you want it to do more?

There's many to choose from of course. If you go for an enhanced scheme, then a factor is how deep is the body control cavity, since SGs are usualy very thin.

John

[wolf]

Hi Max,
Not to brag about my own website, but I've done this wiring on several of my guitars, including a Gibson SG Standard.
The disadvantages?
- It's a pretty complex wiring
- It requires drilling a lot of holes in the guitar body.

Advantages?
It produces a huge variety of guitar sounds.

(By the way, I am currently working on installing this on a ninth guitar.
If you click here you will see this on 8 of my guitars. Yes, that is how much I like this switching.)

[maxcalibur]

Hi,

Unfortunately, there's a heavy design element in this guitar which means that knobs are a necessity. I suppose I could use rotary switches rather than pots but I'm not sure how practical that is. I am keen on having a variety of sounds though.

I think the cavity is about an inch deep. What would require more depth in an enhanced scheme? If not, which would be the best wiring schematic which gives the normal functionality?

[JohnH]

At that depth, you are right on the limit for push/pull switches. A couple that I have here would fit tightly into a 26mm cavity depth, and 1" ïs 25.4mm!

If you want some more sounds than just the 3 standard humbucker B, B+N, N, I think the best next option to get is coil cuts.

This is how I had it on my LP, using just standard full-size pots and no extra switches, using the tone control to select single coil, humbucker or humbucker with tone turned down:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3167

Its really simple, and by omitting a couple of connections, it defaults to the standard controls without coil cut.

I use those functions every day on my LP, and there is a good range of 8 different sounds. It is very simple and inuitive to control, and the good quality full size pots feel nice and solid.

The diagram is shown with a Gibson grounding plate, but this is not essential.

I then extended it to this:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=4571

Which comes with 6 extra switching options, but option 1 is the basic, and the most useful.

If you are interested in schemes with coil cuts, it is well worth setting it up so the neck and bridge cut to coils that humcancell together. Often this is a slug coil from one and a screw coil from another. I think that slug coils on covered pups sound duller, so IMO, for wiring schemes with more thatn the basic, I prefer open humbuckers, and get 4-conductor wiring, and get them of the same brand so they are compatible in terms of wiring colours and polarities.
cheers
John

[maxcalibur]

I like the look of the first one. That's the kind of thing I was looking for, a little bit of extra versatility without too much complexity. I still have to stain the guitar body as well as put on every other part so I don't want a headache over electronics too!

I cans see that there are two thick wire's going off to neck and bridge pickups, but what is the thick solid grey wire in the middle going to? Also, I take it you're using logarithmic tone pots and you don't lose any of the normal tone on the humbuckers when you turn the knobs down to 9?

I would quite like to have chrome style covered pickups due to the design of the guitar but I obviously don't want hugely dull sounds. Is there a way to have the best of both worlds? (plastic covers maybe?). What happens if you just use two screw coils?

Thanks

[JohnH]

maxc - the centre grey wire is a 4 core wire that goes up to the switch of a Les Paul. On an SG, the switch is much nearer to the controls so you can just use separate wires. Also, on my second suggestion, if you follow option 1, which is just the standard toggle, it is the same as the first suggestion. But I'd be happy to do a specific SG based diagram if you decide to persue this type of design.

If you take two standard similar humbuckers and select the screw coil of each, assuming they are sinmilar polarity, then the result is not humcancelling. Its not a deal breaker though IMO. I might just test my LP to confirm that the covered slug coil that I have is duller sounding as a said. To get humcancelling with two screw coils, one magnet has to be reversed, and wires swapped. I have that on my guitar.

I found, with log pots on tone, that the humbucker sound is restored very quickly, by about 9.5, so theres no significant loss of humbucker tone.

Im happy if you are interested in these ideas, and so I will try to make some sound clips to demonstrate, which I have been meaning to do for a while anyway.

cheers
John

BTW - I see you are a Brit, as I am though I live in Aus. This is the day we teach the Americans how to play a proper game. Go Rooney!!

[maxcalibur]

Haha, don't speak too soon.

It would be really great if you could do an SG specific one. I haven't decided what pickups to go for yet either. The 57's like you have are definitely an option but I haven't heard the 490's before. I know its only asthetics as opposed to actual sound but I think having the chrome pickups covers is quite important.

I've got a marshall amp too so I imagine the sound clips will be quite similar to what I might actually end up with!

[wolf]

maxcalibur
If you choose to get chrome-covered pickups make sure they are NOT the 2 wire sealed-for-eternity, epoxy-filled "bricks" that came with my SG Standard 30 years ago.

Back then, I realized the SG needed a lot more tone options. Being a novice guitar modifier way back then, I figured "oh I'll have to take the guitar apart".

Eventually I found out that those pickups have that 1 wire shielded cable and with all the "epoxy filling", it is impossible to get at the coils and bring out 4 wires.

So, to bring this long story to an end, I'd say your number one consideration before buying any pickups is "does it have 4 conductor wire?" If it doesn't, (and if you can't access the coils yourself) then forget about coil cut; series / parallel and out of phase switching.

[maxcalibur]

Thanks for the advice. In your opinion, does having covers make a big difference? Or are there any materials for covers that are better than others?

[JohnH]

Here is a rather hasty sound clip of my LP, using the tone pots to control single/Hb:

www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=674084&content=songinfo&songID=9269870

The order is Neck single, Neck Hb, Bridge single, Bridge Hb, both Hbs, both singles

The pickups are Gibson, and I was told when I bought it that the Neck is a 57 Classic (covered) and the bridge (uncovered) is a lot hotter, possibly a 490. Definately Gibson alnico of some kind. I had to convert both to 4 wires.

Recording is clean from my DSL401, partly the DI out, partly the miced speaker. Dont attach too much significance to exact the tone you hear (nor the playing!), its is all a bit brighter than in real life, but the differences in the settings are quite distinct and reasonably valid IMO

I don't know about cover materials, and i have not yet done the covered slug v uncovered screw coil sound test.
cheers
John

EDIT - Here's a bit more. Just a direct to pc recording, of my neck pickup full humbucker, then screw coil, then slug coil, which is indeed considerably diminished compared to the screw coil, perhaps because it is much lower, as well as covered?

www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=674084&songID=9270452

[maxcalibur]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. I had to send the guitar body off for a fret repair hence the lack of my reply on my part.

For now I'm going to assume I'm going with the standard wiring and then I will modify it afterwards if I want to. What I am going to do however is put two LED lights next to the pickups that will indicate which ones are on. To do this am I right in thinking I would need a TPDT switch? Or could I just modify the standard SG/Les Paul switch so that it would keep the two circuits separate but allow simultaneous switching of humbuckers and lights?

Thanks again

[maxcalibur]

I think what I want is a DPDT toggle switch but with on-on-on positions for the switch, have only been able to find a mini version so far though. Would be good to find one of a similar size to the normal SG/Les Paul pickup switch.

[newey]

A "full-sized" toggle , DPDT On-On-On- these do exist but will not be cheap.

Digikey sells this sealed mil-spec unit for $37!

search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=480-2202-ND

And, the body of the thing is pretty big, it has screw lug connectors. Probably not what you want, at a price you don't want.


Acme Guitar Works lists these Alco switches- they're mini switches with "fat" actuators- but they're out of stock. When in stock, they're $19.95. If you're interested, you might call to see when they expect to get more in stock.

www.acmeguitarworks.com/Switch-Alco-SP3T-On-On-On-Fat-P53C11.aspx

Just an idea here, I've never tried anything of the sort, so you'd be the guinea pig. You might DIY a Gibson-look toggle out of a mini-toggle, one of the plastic "boots" that Gibby uses on their switch levers, and some epoxy resin stuff. You would fill the inside of the boot with the gooey stuff, stick the mini-lever in the center, and let it set up. You would only insert the lever to a depth to match a std toggle switch. Once it hardened, all anyone would see would be the boot, which would be epoxy-hard and hopefully permanently on there. You would want to mask off the guts of the switch from the lever so as not to gum up the works, and plan for a way to position the thing while its setting up so that the lever stayed centered in the boot.

I figure you'd fill the boot about 3/4 full to allow for the lever displacing the epoxy stuff. What you would use for the resin, I don't know- has to bond to metal, not eat plastic, and set up hard. Liquid Metal™, perhaps?

If it doesn't work out, well, you're only out a mini-switch, and they're fairly cheap by comparison. In fact, you could do a trial run on a really cheap SPST switch before attempting it on the expensive On-On-On one.

[ashcatlt]

The big problem with the DPDT on-on-on is that they typically don't work "right". That is, they don't connect in the center position the way you or I would expect, and won't be of any use for the LED thing you're attempting.

This recent post illustrates the problem quite nicely. I haven't looked (maybe I will now), but I've been told that while the ones that work "right" may exist, they are exceedingly difficult to actually find.

[ashcatlt]

This would be cake with a (3 pickup) Strat, impossible on a (2 pickup) Tele.

Since you've got a battery in there anyway, you might be able to use the Gibson switch to activate a set of relays to get what you're looking for.

[maxcalibur]

I see what you mean from that post. I guess you've gathered that I'm looking for one where the poles on either side act in unison. Maybe I should modify a real Gibson style switch to control the two circuits.

I also live in the UK where it seems its even harder to find these toggle switches!

[maxcalibur]

Ah, didn't read that second post of yours. I hadn't considered some very small relays. If they can fit into the electronics cavity (very small on an SG!) then maybe that will be the easiest thing to do.

That would mean I would have to change the battery every time it ran out though which might be a bit annoying.

[sumgai]

max,

.... a bunch of laments about how switches operate, and how they're so expensive and stuff.....

It's pretty much a fact that Switchcraft does not make a DPDT (on-on-on) that builds upon the standard LP-type pickup selector switch. I've seen one that was modified by another tech, a long time ago, but that was a one-off, no way that was for sale across the counter somewhere.

Accordingly, to do two distinctly separate jobs such as switching pickups and LED's, one will need to go digital. Since a battery is already in play (kinda mandatory for the LED's), powering a switching chip such as a 4066 is child's play.

If you're interested, I'll give a short treatise on the subject, and possibly some links for more info. But I won't waste the space until you ask for it.

HTH






sumgai

[maxcalibur]

I would be very interested. What I'm thinking of doing as well is having two analogue ammeters which have the needle flick up when the corresponding pickup/s is on. I think I'll just put them in series with the LED's which are going to backlight the ammeters. If you see what I mean!

[D2o]

Max - please check your PMs (PMs is Personal Messages, at the top right of your screen ... I guess it's a good thing we don't have too many females on the forum)

[D2o]

Attention people who know more than me:

Out of curiosity, knowing that ChrisK was able to make a SPDT on-OFF-on act as a sort of on-ON-on (as seen below), can a DPDT on-OFF-on be made to function as a 3-way on-ON-on pickup selector by similarly tapping into the appropriate wires accordingly?

Or is that out to lunch?

[sumgai]

D2o,

Chris's "invention" is another version of what ash was talking about, a switch that doesn't work right.

All that's really happening here is that the switch shorts an undesired connection, allowing only the desired connection to come into play. When in the center position, no shorting occurs, therefore both connections (both caps) are in play.

Can you say "wolf", boys and girls? I knew you could.

.............

So the bottom line is, nope, sorry, but good effort, and nice recall/research.




sumgai

[ashcatlt]

If the pickups were to be wired in series like those caps the ON-OFF-ON would work fine. Wire the pups in place of the caps on one side and the LEDs the same way on the other.

I got the impression (or made the assumption) that we were looking for a more standard parallel combination, and I can't see a way to make that work correctly with an ON-OFF-ON.

A 4PDT ON-ON-ON would work, but will still need cosmetic modification to look like a Gibson switch.

[D2o]

Thanks, guys.

Ash, your impression is most likely accurate - I was asking partially in relation to this application, and partially out of general curiosity.

Sumgai, thanks for editing whatever you needed to edit. I think I posted what I had to say and assumed it was fine without checking first - sorry if I mislinked the image (or otherwise erred).

Cheers,
D2o

Hmmm ... I am pretty sure I have a 4PDT at home, although it does not have the heavy bat toggle like on the switch newey linked to - the actual toggle is slimmer.

Nevertheless, would such a 4PDT allow maxcalibur to achieve all of his objectives?

[D2o]

– Bump –

...

… because I am about to post a DPDT on-on-on to maxcalibur, and now wonder if I should post the 4PDT on-on-on that I think I have instead of, or in addition to, the DPDT?

Any input is appreciated.

Cheers,
D2o

[ashcatlt]

Jul 22, 2010 11:18:58 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

A 4PDT ON-ON-ON would work, but will still need cosmetic modification to look like a Gibson switch.

[D2o]

Jul 22, 2010 14:47:35 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Jul 22, 2010 11:18:58 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

A 4PDT ON-ON-ON would work, but will still need cosmetic modification to look like a Gibson switch.

Thanks, Ash

Max, can you live with that?

Cheers,
D2o

EDIT: I'm home now ... and it's a 4PDT on-on (not an on-ON-on).

I'll see if I can find an on-ON-on when I'm at the store tomorrow.

Sorry about that.

[wolf]

sumgai
Can you say "wolf", boys and girls? I knew you could.
Thanks sumgai

Yes, even though that was ChrisK's idea, the graphic originated elsewhere.

[maxcalibur]

I can live with cosmetic modification as long as its one switch on the outside and two on the inside. I'm gonna have another little switch on the backplate of the cavity as a kind of master switch for the battery too.