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Post by ozboomer on Jul 17, 2010 8:41:23 GMT -5
What the hey, I'm in, for whatever I may be able to contribute. I love instro surf music, I just don't play it very well. Snap. On top of it all, I've only been playing "properly" and doing the lesson thing (which I've since abandoned, purely from a $ point of view... but most know that story) for the last 2-3 years, even though I've picked-up a guitar and played something nearly every week for the last 35+ years... but I'd like to try my hand. Some synth gear and other such machinations sort-of possible with me, too. Wait... not done yet.... It occurs to me - where's ozzy? John, you in for this, now that you've talked me into starting it! Major apologies for the tardiness of my response... I have been distracted by many things of late ...and I've yet to catch-up on e-mail, too(!) Silly health, RealLife(tm), SimpleMod, defective gear... but better late than never (gotta push myself somehow ...and this project will get me keen and it would be a good start for me).. What'll I do!? I kind of missed the wave by a couple of years. Heh... My start in all this actually happened way back with the Super Dupers and things like "The Jungle Jingle" and "March of Tarzan", sometime in the mid-'60s, when I was barely at school and I *still* managed to play records on a little wooden record player and my best mate at the time was learning to play drums and his brother had a real Gibson Les Paul with gold everything... *oooOOOooo* Music is SO my thing (even IF! I'm a total hack)..........
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Post by gumbo on Jul 22, 2010 6:05:25 GMT -5
Hmmmmm........
...ok, so I read this thread..... ...apart from it being about 3C everynight here Sowzdraya at the moment (keeping my mind firmly OFF the waters of the nearby sheltered gulf where a 2-foot wave gets on the nightly newscast)...sorry (maybe!) to admit that the surf bug never really bit me...even though I started playing about 1962...
..perhaps it was something about my perception of the Strat body as being the ultimate shape...not those other funny things with all the slide switches and a body that looked like it had got caught in the revolving door as it left the factory......
.....but ask me about Hank Marvin.....
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Post by ozboomer on Jul 22, 2010 7:03:31 GMT -5
...admit that the surf bug never really bit me...even though I started playing about 1962... No problem about that, I'd think... we all have our favourites... What, to ask if he comes up your way for a jam every so often? ('coz he lives just down the road from you nowadays... well, in Perth, that is...(!)) Still, no matter what label we use for the style of music we're talking about (certainly, in terms of the "1st wave" of instro-surf), whether it's called instro-surf, Shadows or Ventures instrumentals... or even Finnish Rautalanka music, they all come from that time in history, so they all influenced each other in some way, I reckon...
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Post by 4real on Jul 25, 2010 6:34:37 GMT -5
I've been a closet surf fan for the longest time, plus hank marvin and own a fair few insto CD's and records from the surf era all as going back to the dwane eddies and Kink rays and forward to the contemporary surf guys that are doing great stuff...slacktone, laika and the astro's, mermen, etc. Here's my take on a surf guitar... It doesn't have to be strats, full floating trem, clangy vintage wide range HB and jazzy neck pickup, phase swithc and for those space moments, the ability to make therimin sounds with my DIY sustainer!~ ... For added credentials...I live on a surf island and can see the ocean from every window and hear the waves while posting to you (though it is winter here and at best you will find me on a boogie board rather than dressing like seal and swimming with the sharks!)... Here's a view from the local surf spot.... ... And I kid you not, I was walking along the beach last summer not 500 yards from home and snapped this pic in my backyard...completely un-staged, but taken from a discreet distance! Don't get more in the spirit of surf music than that...Cowabunga indeed! ... So, a brief look at the thread, not sure what the go is or how it would work, but interested and "qualified"! I've often considered doing my own home made "surf album" and had thoughts on the kind of format and writing. There are a few obvious "themes"...surf, cars, girls, beaches, languid summer nights, road trips, exotica, spy...etc... But it doesn't have to sound too retro and hokey, such experiences are as alive as ever. You needn't really live the life and many surf bands never surfed or even lived near the ocean, but got inspiration from it. I could supply quite a few photos from around here but there's plenty about and it's a fun exercise sometimes to take a picture and try and write a little mini soundtrack to it. In 'surf guitar' there are some very strong retro conservatives that will diss anything bar an original fender through a reverb tank. I think that there is a big myth about the jags and jags things, they were kind of marketed as "surf guitars" but in general the strat was still the king and featured most heavily. But that isn't compulsory either to get into the spirit of the music and the sound. In looking at artists, didn't they make freddie king do a 'surf album' at one point and although not surf and mostly vocal, there's something of that feel in players like bo diddly as well. And then there's the rockabilly side of things, not surf as such but a bit of instro there that would fit into that 'bag' as well! But, I don't think that's such a healthy thing. You can stay true to the "form" and still have a vital growing music and it sure can be a fun thing to play and to play with!
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 25, 2010 11:57:58 GMT -5
Thanks for rubbing it in...and for reference, there are no girls in sarongs playing guitar in the alfalfa field outside my window...
Good points on the style of the song. I've been doing my best to bone up on Surf music for the drums and bass parts...but I've got a deep hole to work out of...
From the little I have picked up it seems the bass parts are different then what I'm used to. What I mean by this is that, from my few weeks of trying to absorb surf, it seems that the bass is not so much a link between the drums and the guitar, but appears to be written to support the guitar almost exclusively. This is not the rule, but I have yet to hear the bass really wander anywhere in a surf tune...
I guess my point is that until the guitar parts are down it's gonna be tough laying down a bass part... It also strikes me that this is going to be more of a collaborative effort then the blues jam.
I'm mixing down a drum track, but sumgai and the more erudite surf guys will need to sign off on it first before it goes out for infliction upon the rest of the board. For reference, the track is set entirely at 165 BPM, but there are multiple changes in the pattern.
This should be fun, and a leaning experience for me. God know, I can use all of the learning experiences I can get...
And welcome aboard 4Real. Informally, I believe the lineup currently is sumgai, newey, jfrankparnell, lpf3, ozboomer and me. Anyone that I missed...or anyone that wants out...just straighten me out...
Happy Trails
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Post by sumgai on Jul 25, 2010 12:30:31 GMT -5
Just a quick note, got lots to do on the home front...... c1 and I are "working" on a drum track. I like what he's done so far. Last night I recorded a "first pass" rhythm track, but little 'hooks' kept getting in the way. I've got a couple of them thrown onto the track too, but I'm gonna let things percolate in the ol' noodle for a day before I sit down again with guitar in hand. This is meant for a 'guide' only - if anyone already has an idea of what to do for a basic chord progression, or even just a 'hook', let's hear it! I think that 165 bpm is about right, but if you need it at another speed, I'm sure we can work something out. sumga
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Post by 4real on Jul 25, 2010 17:36:35 GMT -5
Cool....
The surf genre can be a bit formulaic and that's one of the interesting things about it, how to make an original tune or even a classic tune when tings are so tight in what the "sound" is...plus there is a lot of misconceptions and details that can be "forgotten" in these things...plus a bit of history...
So, bass is an interesting thing. A classic surf tune will often have a variation on a minor i-bVII-VI-V kind of progression....think Am-G-F-E and you will often get that kind of 'exotic' sound with the F-E thing that can sound spanish or arabic or whatever.
The bass and rhythm guitar will often work a bit like a drum track pad, a relentless strummy rhythm part that could be seen to be a bit like a ride cymbal pattern perhaps while the bass gives it 'punctuation' like a bass drum pattern or lo-tom kind of roll. In this way if is more like a jazz ethic than a rock hi-hat kind of approach.
Even the guitar parts, especially in a style like "dick dale's" is extremely rhythmic like in it's trem picking, it isn't just a constant alternating picking thing but a rhythmic accented pattern and things like the classic long tremolo picked slide is analogous to a drum roll. So, these kinds of patterns tend to ride over the rhythm section and the drums are free to go crazy with energetic rolls and such.
So, some might describe the bass and rhythm guitar as a kind of 'ocean' while the drums are providing the 'waves' and the guitar part 'rides' on top in a shower of reverb 'spray'...
The influence of this formula is fairly profound, take the original 'dire straits' kind of sound and formula. A song like "sultans of swing", but a ridiculous number of those songs, had a constantly strumming rhythm with a basic supporting bass part, a supporting but more free drum part and a vocal and guitar lines that 'ride' atop this kind of thing and conform to the Dm-C-Bb-A classic progression.
So bass tends to be a fairly repetitive supporting role, in more riff kind of things just providing a basic riff derived from the guitar 'melody' and outlining the usually minor chord. Think a tune like 'pipeline'...
So, it can be tricky to pare things down and keep the bass more static, may not be as "fun" for the bass player, but in a lot of tunes like this the guitar part isn't that much more either and it is a lot about the drums...think Hawaii 5-0 as another classic of this particular "sound". Players like Dick dale often use two drummers even.
This makes programing a drum part in such songs difficult as we are so used to hearing the drum parts in a sporting time keeping role instead of a 'lead instrument'.
Now bands like the 'shadows' were not really surf but had a lot of the characteristics of the formula, timed echos and damping on the guitar and a few tunes like 'apache' that are drum based. The ventures too were a more sanitized version of what was going on in the surf scene and the drums tend to be a little more 'polite'...not so much 'jungle rhythm' abandon...it was still coming out of the 50's after all.
But there's more to it than a formula, there was a convergence of 'influences' and pressures at play...you had that fifties fascination with hawaiian things and the post war pacific ocean, the 'fender sound' that really road that California wave, the attempt to 'tame' and control rock and roll with manufactured 'bands' and throwing back to classic jazz kinds of tunes and very young guys often coming out of marching bands (hence a lot of the drum fills and snare work) and jazz bands and a lot of the material they drew on and the 'fad' factor. There were lessons learned from fighting elvis and the early rockers and the new social tactic was often to 'infiltrate' pop culture like surf and I feel that in many ways this did work and 'kill off' much of the vitality and longevity of the form and there is still a very strong resistance to new influences into the 'style' and 'formula'...
...
Anyway...early morning...but one could use the formula to make a prototypical 'surf tune' of a variety of the variations. Surf, rods, spy, space, exotic...hard to do it without it just coming off as retro kitsch.
I'm not sure where this track is going or how you are building it up...it's hard with something that is very drum oriented to build up from the drums...imagine writing hawaii five-0 by starting with the drums on a drum machine!
Personally I hear some of the "surf ethic' survive in bands like "the police' for instance, say a track like "walking on the moon"...basic bass parts, color and constant rhythm guitar parts and energetic drum work being a lot freer and important...still there is more than just this to the 'surf sound' and a broader perspective for writing a successful surf tune than focusing on the guitar parts and cliche trem picking, vibrato dips and minor key progressions.
But you know, a lot of people like the more 'straight' white bread sound of the traditional thing and there is an art to keeping to the form and making something 'new' within the genre.
I'll be keen to hear what you come up with for sure, my own technology is a little limited, what with this wind up computer that keeps crashing and low on memory, but it's great to see collaboration occurring across the net like this and putting these guitars to use
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 25, 2010 18:50:28 GMT -5
Now is probably the time to refer back to the ground rules set by Ash for the first Potluck Jam, which are very well reasoned and effective: (changes and strike outs were done by me to fit this situation)
" Make sure it starts at the beginning. If you set your tempo to 165, the grid will line up, though you'll be counting 2 measures per in the slower section. You could build a tempo map for yourself, but I don't think it's necessary.
I'd like to receive back from you .wav files at 44.1K sample rate, 16 bits or better. I think for reasons of bandwidth, server space, and upload/download times, it's best to keep them mono. Stereo placement is going to be determined at mix time anyway. If you absolutely can't live without some whizbang stereo effect and really want to hear it implemented in the final mix, you could either try to describe it to me so I can recreate it using plugins, or as last resort send a stereo file. Just remember the first rule! If it doesn't work in the mix it will be altered and/or eliminated.
Oh, and let's have the files start at the beginning of the song. Doesn't have to go to the end. And please only send me your track! Don't mix in the drums."
Based on the length of this song, I don't think the mono thing is that critical here, but if all you have is mono we'll take that and be happy.
The part about starting your track at the beginning, regardless of where you play, will make life much easier on whoever mixes this down. If it's me, I know it'll make my life easier.
Also, whatever effect(s) you use try not to go too overboard. It's much easier to add in later versus trying to subtract out later.
And please stick to the .wav/44100/16 bits. Different bit rates have different noise characteristics and different compression formats can vary the overall time of your track. Some of this can be worked around, but if it takes 8 hours to manipulate your track into the song it might not make it in. I'd hate to see someone's heartfelt track get left on the cutting room floor...
That's it. Gavel now back in the upright and locked position...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by lpf3 on Jul 25, 2010 19:58:20 GMT -5
If I may add my own 2 cents worth.......
I think we should play as though we are really jamming, trading solos & such like we were all playing together, IOW, play a couple of verses & then lay out for the next guy. The next guy, of course, takes a couple verses & he lays out - and so on.
This is especially important for anybody playing lead, so we don't wind up with everybody playing lead at once on the first few verses and nobody playing the rest of the song. If someone wants to play all the way thru, fine, just know that some of your playing is gonna get cut to make room for the next guy- you know, just like jamming in person.
If there aren't enough players to fill up the song anybody can go in and take another solo easy enough......
Make sense?
-lpf3
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 25, 2010 20:28:06 GMT -5
I agree. The more dialogue at the front end will make for a better song at the back end. This goes for bass and guitar as well.
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on Jul 26, 2010 0:55:44 GMT -5
Two things.... One, this was intended to sound as if it had been written 50 years ago, and could have become a hit on then-popular AM radio stations. At least those that played surf music in general..... It can go in another direction, if we all want it to do so, but I was hoping to make an easy start of it, and get more creative on the next outing. Two, unless anyone can prove me wrong, there is no software available anywhere, at any time, on any computer, for any amount of money, that can properly imitate a spring reverb (a Fender Reverb Unit, or equivalent). That would bring to mind only two solutions: a) Plan on using a track where the reverb was recorded as part of the signal on the track, or; b) Re-amping the guitar's track with an aforementioned FRU. That might take some serious effort, especially if the mixologist doesn't have an FRU on hand..... (And no, I'm not shipping mine to anyone, so don't even think it! ) Anyone that thinks they've got a "unbelievably good spring reverb plug-in", you're welcome to try it out on me. The proof will be in the pudding, and nowhere else. But remember, I grew up in the era of "accept no substitutes". And another thing, somewhat related..... Pete's thoughts are mine, lock stock and barrel. But I'll go even further. Excepting Dick Dale, all of the early surf bands were straight out of high school, or even still in school, and all of them were amateurs, to be polite about it. They had slick producers who smelled money, but that's all the "leg up" they had - otherwise, it was garage band all the way. Meaning, many recordings were done "on the cheap", which translated to "what you hear is what they did" in the studio, and that's what we now venerate as "the surf sound". We really should be able to get the same overall feel/vibe without having to spend an inordinate amount of time/effort/etc. on this..... or so I should think. A slick production would be cool, but a 1960's-era surf tune would be even better! BTW, you are all aware, are you not, that Dick Dale's first album had no reverb unit, none at all? (Taken from www.dickdale.com/history.html, about a quarter of the way down.) But just try to get away without reverb, today. Homework assignment: Procure 'Baja' by The Astronauts, from 1963. Procure 'Fathomless' by The Fathoms, from 1996. Compare the amount of reverb contained thereon, choose which group sounds better to you, and turn in a 100-word essay on what persuaded you to make your choice. Extra credit for noting other latter-day instrumental groups that propound The Ethos of Reverb. sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Jul 26, 2010 12:11:32 GMT -5
in re: Above I should probably add that if the re-amp method is employed, there is a stompbox made by Roland/Boss that will do the job. I've tested the Boss FRV-1, and found it to be very close to the real thing. So close in fact that I'm tempted to pick one up, just to have on hand for a spare or sumpin'. Not anticipatin' or anything, but just to cover my butt, in case, ya know? sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 26, 2010 14:39:40 GMT -5
I tend to agree with sg on this particular point.
The reverb here isn't really meant as ambience, or to emulate an actual space. It's more along the lines of special effects usage, and is probably best thought of as part of the instrument. The interaction of the spring unit with the rest of the system - amp and speaker coloration, not to mention acoustic coupling - is pretty important as well.
I would still suggest a bit of restraint, though. In the blues jam I also mentioned something about not using quite so much overdrive/distortion as you normally would and I think the same thing applies here. Once it gets into the mix, that reverb mix that sounded great in your room might just turn out to be too much. When in doubt, turn it up till it sounds good to you, and then back it off just a touch.
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Post by 4real on Jul 26, 2010 21:10:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure of the tune, sounds like a surf stomper. I suppose to be more 'authentic' you are not really looking at 'solo's' as such... general characteristics would be some trem arm dips on chords, some s stop start sections, maybe some strings scratching stuff with a bit of reverb perhaps, a bit of trem picking, a bit of damped picking and repeating the main theme in different octaves. Likely a middle 8 section where you might find a decending (runaway) sequence like Am-G-F-E or a variation on that idea if not included in the main theme or perhaps a change to the relative major or minor...potentially you could put in a modulation to lift things a bit somewhere towards the end, say up a semitone (or something even more as with "telstar") Quite often there will be some play instrumentally on the "theme" or title of the track. As for the reverb, yes the old fenders were great units for a number of reasons, but I suppose I fall more into the camp between those, don't own one and it can be a little excessive...I also like the shadows sound which was an echoplex and gave hank that bounce and so use an analogue delay with a single repeat of about 300ms very low and a fair bit of reverb for the 'surf sound' from my fender HR or roland SS springs so you get a bit of reverb on the echos...but it is a subtle thing. It is a neat idea for a collaborative thing and I didn't realize this was a part of GN2 and will have to read more of this section. Probably best that a theme be set out and scheme for the song and each player try and find and alternative way to approach it contrasting to the other. Yes, a lot of bands were just kids, but a lot of the famous tunes also had the "monkees" phenomenon in that it was just easier and everything to have the kids front the cover and play gigs...while the same set of session players were pounding out these tunes by the dozen in some studio somewhere. There are a lot of people that have brought out "fake" lost surf recordings, one of the more famous is perhaps "the Blue Stingrays" which is mike campbell and tom petty's bands effort and sounds pretty authentic. And there are plenty of "surf bands" about that retain the traditions pretty closely. I do like to hear people that can retain the essence and take it a little further as if the whole fad hadn't died and good guitarists and writers continued on with the whole surf 'ethic' I guess. That is kind of what perhaps satriani was intending with his first 'surfing with the alien' record but the shredding perhaps took away from things a touch. A band like "slacktone" has the reverb sound, repetoire and power plus a fair bit of "flash" and certainly speed at times... www.slacktone.com/video.htmlThis might give you ideas for tunes and arrangements. Pollo Del Mar is perhaps more in line with the garage band and traditional approach to things www.pollodelmar.com/From Finland, Laika and the Cosmonauts play beautifully... This far along in the form I think it can still progress and stay within the 'formula' and new songs be made... It's tricky to find the 'restraint' to play the tune with a lot of these things whether it is a ballad or stomper, play with 'space' and 'tone' and give up a lot of that bluesy loose timing that we are perhaps more used to. It's common for surf players to be playing right on the beat or even slightly ahead making it seem as if it is being "pushed along" or even 'speeding up' when it's not! more of a 'stomper' with all the surf cliches perhaps is this track "surf's you right"... An interesting band is "The Baronics" that specialize in surfing up classical music, such as this mozart surf arrangement... Again, you can just pick through and find the "cliches" that make the "surf sound" out of a lot of this kind of thing... good luck with it all gentlemen! pete
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 31, 2010 17:32:25 GMT -5
We have a drum track! After trying my best quick study on surf drums I was able to put 3:10 together...
It's set to 165 BPM throughout. No clever breaks or flashy stuff, just straight head surf stuff.
EDIT: 20100911 - These links have been removed, as they no longer apply...and to eliminate any confusion down the road.
There are three links as follows:
The .mp3 preview is for audition only and NOT to be used to record your tracks off of. This is here so you can see if anything strikes you:
Surf Drums - .mp3
The next file is the .wav file you'll need to download to record your tracks against.
Surf Drums - .wav
The final one is the same Surf Drums - .wav file, but the drums are dropped 6 db and it has a click track over it.
Surf Drums - .wav - Click Track
Both of the .wav files are 32.8 MB/44100/16 bit/Stereo.
I haven't charted out the drum track, but if anyone asks I'll do it. Right now I'm fixing fences and this gave me a good excuse to get out of the sun...
Now, all you guitar players...get out there and play something!
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 31, 2010 22:17:50 GMT -5
nice job! well, it would be helpfull if you could chart it out like 4 meas of 'verse' then 8 'chorus' then bridge, etc. which is exactly what i would do first to play on it. But, itd be nice to know what you were thinking for each section.
Man, I was playing with big reverb and 'echoplex' at about 300ms, just one return, last night. Dagon cool!
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Post by lpf3 on Jul 31, 2010 22:43:26 GMT -5
Ok-
Sweet! Do we have a progression or a key yet?
Or is it cool to just start playin' & see what comes up?......
lpf3
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Post by ozboomer on Aug 1, 2010 0:15:49 GMT -5
When I collected this and played it this morning, I was grinning from ear to ear for some reason... Maybe it's something with being on the "inside" of producing some of my favourite music ...! ...but still an exciting and fun groove you've got goin' there f'sure ...it would be helpfull if you could chart it out like 4 meas of 'verse' then 8 'chorus' then bridge, etc. Agreed. We might be able to pick-out the end-of-verse or something... but the structure you were thinkin' of at recording time would be handy. Fanx! a heap for your efforts, c1 and sg... and gettin' us all movin'... John
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Post by sumgai on Aug 1, 2010 3:18:41 GMT -5
Gang, c1 and I have been in behind-the-scenes discussion, mainly dealing with my inability to make my intended chord progression mesh properly with his drums - hence the click track... hope that helps. However, if anyone else wants to just bash it out, and see what falls out of the reverb pan, then don't wait for me! Let 'er rip!! ;D sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 1, 2010 11:16:18 GMT -5
Well, I wish I could say that I thought the chorus and verse part out when I did this...but my idea in all this was to set up a surf jam... And knowing next to nothing about Surf music myself, I tried to incorporate common elements I heard, versus trying to lay out the entire song in stone and forcing the more "Surf Smart" members here into the "what to play and where to play it" rut...
Having said this, there are several different changes to the drum pattern, some subtle and some obvious, that would allow the song to take a different direction, but nothing as sophisticated as an actual structure according to Hoyle...sorry...
Anyone who's written songs before within a band knows the process is immeasurably easier with all the guilty parties in the same room at the same time. This is particularly difficult in an Internet forum. With the first Potluck Jam we just swagged it...basically, put the drum and bass out and they will come...
This did create some "where and what do I play" issues and probably kept a few people out of the song that wanted to be there. But it was our maiden voyage and we are a bit smarter this time...
A few of us here formed a virtual band, Legal Fiction, after the first Potluck Jam, that relies exclusively on tracks created apart from the other band members. We have gotten smarter and have realized that collaboration is the key to making the song work. PM's or postings before cutting a track make life easier when the final mix comes down. Some people can wing it, some people work best in a structure. If we all communicate it works best for everyone...and best for the song. The key here is not to suffer from "Paralysis through Analysis".
My thought are this. The progressions need to be established first. It's only about 3:00 long anyway, so we can't get too tricky with it. Once that's down then you guitar players hash out your solos. Based on the fact that the bass is the least important thing in the genre that'll probably go in last to support all the cool stuff is already in there.
Give me some time to go through and map the drum track out for changes and fills and get it up here. It won't be the Rosetta stone, but it might help.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 1, 2010 15:49:36 GMT -5
OK, this may not be the perfect format for this, but I don't have any drum charting software, so this is the best I could do. Here's a breakdown of the entire drum track by measure\beats & time. The distinct patterns are all individually color coded and the fills are all in red. Single instruments and obvious parts are in back...as I ran out of colors along the way...
EDIT: 20100911 - This content has been removed as it no longer applies, and to avoid any confusion in the future.
Surf Drums - 165 BPM - 3:10
Measure/Beats - (Time Format) Description
Okay, so I walked a few measures here or there...makes it interesting... Guess I shouldn't be doing drum tracks after midnight anymore...
Hope this helps
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Aug 2, 2010 4:20:42 GMT -5
Well, I figured out what went south, and c1 ain't gonna like it.........
In a real band, the drummer doesn't lay down a groove, and expect everyone to key in on that. It really goes more along the lines of someone brings in a riff, or a chord progression, someone else supplies the other part, then the bass gets added, and finally the drummer is allowed to contribute (or forced to, in some cases). It's not always guitars either, keyboards and horns might be the initial impetus here, or the filler parts, you never know.
I've seen some drummers that have more than a sense of timing, they do know their stuff, musically. But these guys chart out their intended tune on some other instrument, teach to their bandmates, then get back on the skins to make that final part. They don't go "tizh-tizh-bop-bop-tizh-tizh-bop" and expect me to burst out with "My Gawd, that's the greatest tune I've ever heard!"
..........
What c1 did was make a really, really cool metronome. Once he filtered it back down to "click, click, click....", it got real easy to key in my strumming pattern, and the rest will be history. But now that he's broken it down even further, I think he, or someone, is gonna be able to fit drum parts to chord parts (the progression) real easily. I hope.....
..........
Not saying we were, or are, on the wrong track here, just sayin' that I've put the cart back behind of the horse, that's all. ;D
..........
I've got a rhythm progression, in the Key of G, that I'll post tomorrow morning. I need to re-record the intro, a pickstroke got "lost" during the recording, and it stands out pretty harshly. I'll also tweak my tone a bit, and yes, it has reverb - but I've purposely kept it down to a dull roar. I figure I can re-amp it through the main spring reverb later, if need be. Sorry, no glissandoes at this time, but there is some double-picking going on in the intro. Let me think about that facet for a moment......
sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 2, 2010 5:48:52 GMT -5
Well, I figured out what went south, and c1 ain't gonna like it......... Now there's an ominous tone to begin with... Yep, there is a difference in doing this over the Internet... Looking back at the track after I charted it out I could see where things went South. I can tweak this, but considering the time it takes to break all this down and redo it I'd really appreciate some input from you "surf savvy" guys before I pop the hood. Mom always said I'd do great things... There are 8 different patterns in what's here now...some minor and some significantly different. Life is easier for me if we can stay within those patterns. My surf knowledge is next to nada and what's in there is hand done...there are no available existing MIDI patterns for Surf music that I could find. ...but, that's where it's supposed to be... Cool. And lpf3 had a good little demo going that I heard. Whatever is easiest on the drum to accommodate what you've got just let me know. I'll keep audio quality of the drums simple and we can knock it off piece by piece. One thing I'd like to ask...when we agree on the progressions and where the song breaks we lock that as permanent. I don't want to get into a situation where changes are requested months down the road after I've remixed this thing. I'll hold off ripping parts out until I hear back from you guys on what needs to move to fit your progressions. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 2, 2010 9:50:09 GMT -5
let me just say at this point that I'm pretty good at editing tracks, so if sumgai has ideas for most or some of the drum parts, I can edit either subtracting the odd measure or quadrupling it to make things 4,4,8, 16, etc. What's easier redoing the drums or editing? Well, i dunno.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 2, 2010 12:10:04 GMT -5
Thanks c1, for not going off on me! I realized after the fact that I should've PM'd you with a 'fair warning'. Most discourteous of me, I admit. Will 10 lashes with a wet 'B' string suffice? jfrank, I don't know what all is involved with editing anything like drum parts. To me, it's never been more complicated than turning to the pizza guydrummer and telling him 'Go', after he's heard the rest of the parts. But if you want to collaborate with c1, I'm sure he'll give you an earful! All..... as you may have guessed, I've once again waffled a bit on my part. It needed a bit of re-recording to clean it up, and in the process I decided that a rundown (longhairs would call that a descending glissando, but us real gee-tar players call it what it is, a rundown) was also needed somewhere in there, in order to make this thing "surf-ful". As soon as I'm done here on the 'puter, I'll get back to work, and post it as ASAP as possible. Later...... sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 2, 2010 17:34:00 GMT -5
It's usually easier to avoid artifacts when you edit the MIDI notes prior to rendering to audio.
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 2, 2010 18:03:51 GMT -5
It's usually easier to avoid artifacts when you edit the MIDI notes prior to rendering to audio. That would be my take as well. I have the MIDI drum mapped and can re-render the changes and all is well. I just need to know what you guys want and where you want it.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 2, 2010 23:49:41 GMT -5
lol! I thought you drummed that!
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 12, 2010 18:03:31 GMT -5
lol! I thought you drummed that! ...yes...with my Neil Peart keyboard... ...any sign of a progression to upgrade the metronome with?
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Post by sumgai on Aug 12, 2010 21:54:05 GMT -5
...any sign of a progression to upgrade the metronome with? Signs aplenty. Actual results may vary according to your mileage. I'm currently laying down a third track for use by the mixologist. I've already laid out two tracks that identify this thing for what it is - SURF!, but felt that someone's gonna scream when they realize they can't get back to the basics... hence the "toneless" track is in the making, almost as I type. Lots of experimentation has been going on here, trust me on this. More explanations to follow later tonight, or else early tomorrow, stay tuned. sumgai
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