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Post by ozboomer on Aug 12, 2010 22:59:57 GMT -5
...any sign of a progression to upgrade the metronome with? Signs aplenty. [...] I'm currently laying down a third track for use by the mixologist. I've already laid out two tracks that identify this thing for what it is - SURF! [...] More explanations to follow later tonight, or else early tomorrow, stay tuned. I, for one, am waiting with bated breath... I'm a' dyin' t'get sumfin' harmonified to start a'workin' on... ...really! -Moi
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Post by sumgai on Aug 16, 2010 1:04:55 GMT -5
Slight delay enroute.....
I've had to set aside much of my musical musings this past few days. If I told you all why, I'd have to raise my AMEX spending limits, so's I could buy enough plane tickets to visit each of you and bring dich Uhm!
Seriously, it's a short setback, I should be back up and running in a few more days.
On a less serious note, I now recall why I don't record myself. This is a bunch of Kyle Is In My Head! My Gawd, why can't I just push a button, flex my fingers, and the computer has exactly what I played, not something that makes c1's favorite description of music seem generous by comparison. I tell you, it's enough to make a grown man go back to analog!!!
sumgai
p.s. 'Bated breaths should be held in abeyance for the nonce. That is all.
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 16, 2010 6:33:47 GMT -5
I tell you, it's enough to make a grown man go back to analog!!! Man, I feel your pain on that one. The first Jam was my maiden voyage into the world of digital recording and processing... It was like Rainman picked up a bass on the day he decided to quit heroin... I suppose the learning curve is different depending on what you started with and your proclivity to pickup a technical skill while trying to emote a creative urge...makes you understand why Hendrix and Townsend smashed their guitars... I'm getting better but still lack all the hardware to do it well. I think the reason analog seemed so much easier to us older guys was that you couldn't afford all the Amazing GeeWhiz toys (...read as the Zappaesque studio rigs of yesteryear...and the vst's of today), so you just played and salvaged it in the mix. Starting out, though, for me, and a few others in the over 50 category, digital is as easy as 1, 10, 11... We have faith in you. Waiting with baited, sans analog, breath... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by D2o on Aug 16, 2010 8:22:20 GMT -5
Summy,
Maybe I'm just reading too much into those babelfish translations of the lyrics to Bring Dich Um.
If electronics is the only problem that your tongue is trying to refer to, while it is being impeded by your cheek, I accept that - no problemo ; if your problems involve the health of an organic, carbon based life forms with a name that has fooled at least one member into thinking said life form is of Japanese descent, nuh-uh - do not go quietly into the night. 'nuff said.
Kyle in my head ... if only that is where it was! My problem is that I will never possess the skill for you to hear the symphony of what is in my head! Sadly, kyle is, in fact, just about all you'll hear.
Carry on, then. Do carry on.
D2o
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Post by lpf3 on Aug 16, 2010 10:40:06 GMT -5
Didi-
You're certainly not alone.... I wonder if anyone truly makes the recording they set out to make.
-lpf3
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Post by D2o on Aug 16, 2010 11:17:39 GMT -5
Now that is a very interesting thought!
It could well be that some of the creators of what we consider to be some of the most inspired musical performances ever may well have been thinking how fortunate they are that their fans put up with "this drivel" - the best they could manage to do of what they were trying to do.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 16, 2010 12:04:37 GMT -5
Well, thanks guys, but.... It's not so much the playing itself, that's pretty much straight-ahead, and "in the can", so to speak. What I'm ranting about is how it sounds to the ear, when played back - and that's before any massaging at all, just straight in and straight back out. Like c1, I know that in the analog days, it used to be that you might botch the levels or something, but otherwise, what you played into the mic is what you heard from the playback(monitor) speakers, time and again, for all the future to come. Adding effects was the domain of the Gee-Whiz Kids ™, and strictly speaking, wasn't necessary. Remember, Dick Dale's first album had no reverb, not before, during or after his performance in front of the mic. Kinda speaks to me about what's possible, if one sticks with the basics, no? Drivel, indeed! Gotta just a few more hours, then things should be back to normal around here (and no cracks about what constitutes normal, either!). sumgai
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Post by lpf3 on Aug 16, 2010 12:44:16 GMT -5
Here's a short rhythm demo played over c1's drum track. It's rough, but it's just there to suggest a pattern. Am - F - E - E7; the next part is F - E. It's based on a progression that newey sent me for another possible project but I modified it for use here. I know my pattern doesn't fit the drums- this pattern is more suited to a straight pattern for 7 bars- with the rolls & other embellishments on the eighth bar, then start again. Or repeating patterns of 4 bars, with the fills/rolls on the fourth bar...... Once we agree on a structure c1 can get going on a drum track, then we'll make him play bass....... ;D As always, my ego is checked safely at the door so criticism/suggestions are welcome. Here it is.... -lpf3
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Post by sumgai on Aug 16, 2010 13:07:49 GMT -5
then we'll make [c1] play bass....... ;D Please don't throw me in that briar patch, Br'er Fox!
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Post by D2o on Aug 16, 2010 13:29:47 GMT -5
cyn, lpf3,
I know what a tuna farm looks like and I can boil a lobster as well as the next guy, but that’s about the extent of my surf knowledge.
I am hopelessly under-qualified in surf music to comment on the appropriateness of what you guys have come up with as it applies to surf music.
However, I am qualified enough in the department of what sounds good and, especially – I’ll have you know, what does not! (really, kyle tells me that all the time).
I know enough to know that what you’ve laid down there sounds good!
Good job! (regardless of whether or not it ends up being deemed surf music by sum of you West Coasters)
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Post by KIIMH on Aug 16, 2010 14:20:13 GMT -5
Hey, that doesn't sound anything at all like what's in my head!
... that's a joke ... it sounded good in my head ...
... the joke, I mean ...
... and the music, too ... also, as well ...
Good job.
kyle
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Post by newey on Aug 16, 2010 21:12:15 GMT -5
3-
Sounds plenty surfy to me! Good work!
As lpf3 noted, this was originally from another context. It was something I wrote up for my guitar lesson, in order to learn to transition from using a minor pentatonic scale to a harmonic minor. We're in Ami, but the 5th is dominant (E or E7, instead of Emi), triggering a harmonic minor situation for that portion of the progression.
I don't know enough theory to know whether soloing with an harmonic minor scale is used much in surf stuff, but anyway, that's what this was for originally.
But I think the progression works well here.
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 17, 2010 0:23:05 GMT -5
...I know that in the analog days, it used to be that you might botch the levels or something, but otherwise, what you played into the mic is what you heard from the playback(monitor) speakers, time and again, for all the future to come. Actually, I was so disappointed with what I heard going DI that I dragged out the trusty 30 year old AKG, mic'd the amp and just recorded my tracks through Audacity. I could play back a few tests to check the levels and then just go to town with the drums playing back through the headphones while recording the bass coming out of the amp. Granted, the occasional barking dog, contented cat rubbing his head on the mic, the ringing telephone...or one p d off bass player firing obscenities back at the aforementioned did make for a few colorful outtakes...but I needed the practice on those takes anyway... And while I do have a reckless tendency to tweak the tracks in Sonar, it's always best to get what you want off the amp, as it never quite measures up with the vst's after the fact... And I think newey's progression that lpf3 laid down works pretty good. And there's no law saying we can't change the progression half way through...or change on 7... (had to get that one in) Just let me know what and where you need the changes and I'll fire out another demo and see if that works. I'm starting to work some long days on projects, so the more precise you make your requests the happier you'll be with the results. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 17, 2010 0:26:52 GMT -5
then we'll make [c1] play bass....... ;D Please don't throw me in that briar patch, Br'er Fox! ...and I've got your Briar Patch right here... ;D
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Post by sumgai on Aug 22, 2010 0:32:41 GMT -5
..... the bass parts seem to be dead simple...almost like they handed the bass to the worse guitar player in the band... It may seem like that's the case, but as with all else in life, there are exceptions, F'rinstance.... Dain Bread, indeed. sumgai
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 22, 2010 12:19:33 GMT -5
quite the bassline to be repeating for 3:20 !
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 22, 2010 12:43:29 GMT -5
Bet the guy can open beer bottles with his thumb... I got a cramp just listening to it... But hey, at least it moved...
HTC1
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 1, 2010 21:40:44 GMT -5
...any sign of a progression yet...or has the tide gone out for good on this one...
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on Sept 1, 2010 22:20:21 GMT -5
I should have reported in a long time ago.... sorry 'bout that. This is what I why I don't record myself. I don't like it, what I get sucks, and that's all there is to it. Not to mention, I find that every pattern I try can be traced back to some particular song that was at least somewhat popular, if not downright a hit, back in the day. Coming to the realization that my "creativity" is really my "memory" bites the hind one, lemme tell ya. So I'll suggest that for now, we just go with lpf3's contribution, and see what happens. (I'm referring to what he posted in Reply #67, on the previous page.) Maybe next go-round..... sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 2, 2010 0:07:39 GMT -5
Geez...like all surf songs don't sound like every other surf song...but if that's the way you're gonna be about it...just don't go hodad on us So, lpf3, let me know how you want me to fix the drum track and we can kick this thing into gear...no surf pun intended... HTC1
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 3, 2010 8:04:13 GMT -5
I dunno sg- at this point, after listening to music for 50 years plus, there's no way to play something that we haven't heard a million times already. I think the best we can do is play it like we hear it & put our own stamp on it. Besides, if we keep getting older we're likely to forget all that old music, & then we'll be fresh & innovative again. That's when I'm planning to make my move. ;D Ok- I think my progression is a couple of 4 bar patterns, repeated. An 8 bar drum pattern with a fill at bar 4 and a roll at bar 8 (or even bars 7 & 8) would be nice & simple- repeated for about 3 1/2 minutes. Anybody who wants to play- now's the time to chime in if you have a certain key you want to play in, etc. Mine is Am- F- E- E7 twice; then F- E- E7 twice. Repeated. FWIW, I like playing in the middle of the neck, (from G to around D) I'm lousy with open strings and anything above the 12th fret or so, those metal things are too close together for my fat fingers. Here it is again. I only put in those whammy warbles and that Walk Don't Run descending lick to showcase my shredding skills- in the real version I'll keep the rhythm down to simple strumming & let whoever's playing over it do what they want to. -lpf3
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Post by ozboomer on Sept 4, 2010 9:02:11 GMT -5
Tentatively, I would make a little suggestion... ...to try a slightly different progression from lpf3's, viz:- Am - F - E - %Am - F - E - E7F - % - Am - %F - % - E - E7 Reinforcing the minor sound or sticking with the 7th sound... or does it sound too cliched that way... or maybe such a change is better suited to a later part of the tune? The other thing I'd comment about is maybe 3.5 min. is too long? Something like "Pipeline" often only ran about 2 mins... or do we want to leave ourselves some "fat" to fill-in somehow? ...or maybe give ourselves the opportunity to pare it down later...? Please excuse my ignorance in how this collaboration thingy is supposed to work...
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 4, 2010 9:44:50 GMT -5
Oz- What does the 0/0 symbol represent, no chord? (Sorry ) In the second part I like your idea of going F - Am better than the F- E- E7 that I had. Also, I think 3 1/2 minutes was just something I threw out there so there would be plenty of time for everyone to get a couple of verses, if we don't fill it up we can always cut it down. FWIW- I have a guitar synth & I'm hoping to come up with some organ & sax stuff to go along with my guitar part. Hoping to . In that case I could burn up 3 or 4 verses just on my own & I wouldn't want to play too much while someone else doesn't get any......... Thanks for the input, anybody else? -lpf3
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Post by ozboomer on Sept 4, 2010 10:44:30 GMT -5
Oz- What does the 0/0 symbol represent, no chord? (Sorry ) The "%" indicates the previously played chord continues through the current bar/measure. So Am - F - E - % means Am - F - E - E ...in this example, it's probably neither here nor there... but if we start making lots of chord changes or use some weirdo rhythms, it can be useful... I've tended to use it when my ideas "stream" a bit and I'm too slack to write a Cm#9 or sumfin' I'm also just playing about with the harmonic "movement" a bit at the moment.. seeing what options we might have for moving the tune along, etc... Dunno if I'll guitar or keyboard my bits yet(!). Percolating along here...
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 4, 2010 11:15:54 GMT -5
I'm in the process of reworking the drum track based on lpf3's progression. You guys can change whatever you want in the order, but lpf3 & I agreed on the 1-8 w/short fill in the 4th bar and long roll on the 8th. I should have a revised version by the end of the weekend. I'll post it and wait for feedback.
HTC1
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 6, 2010 19:28:06 GMT -5
Just so you all don't think I went to sleep on this, lpf3 and I have been hammering out the drum track to match the initial pattern discussed earlier. None of the guitar on this demo is cast in stone, as ozboomer and lpf3 are still discussing the actual progression, but this little demo will give you an idea of what the drum track sounds like with the old progression. Surf Demo - LONG VERSION - Drums & Rhythm GuitarI still need to mix down the drums for prime time. Give me a few days...maybe a week and I'll have a stereo 44,100/16bit .wav file up for distribution. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Sept 6, 2010 19:30:45 GMT -5
I've just audited c1's latest clip - sounds very good! And for the record, but keeping in mind that I am not in charge here.... I envisioned this thing to be a work that would be commercially successful, were it to have been released in 1963. That does dictate a length of absolutely no more than 3 minutes, and a preferred length of only 2:30 to 2:45 minutes/seconds. Any longer, and it would've died on the vine - it would've taken away from the "personality" (talking head)'s blather time. It was my intent to "break into the market" like this, to get our feet wet. Only when we had this in the can did I think we could then branch out and do something more jam-like. Remember, back then, even though some given tune was called a "jam", it wasn't. It was all thought out very thoroughly, and repeatedly rehearsed, long before the tape started rolling. But on stage, that was different story.... There were, and still are, some very, very good jammers in this idiom. But when they riff over a structure, you can be sure that the backing section knows the progression better than they know the backs of their collective hands. To have it otherwise would guarantee an immediate appearance by Mr. Murphy. This partially explains why persons (like me) can hear a tune, and almost instantly tell you did it - we know that 90% or more of all surf bands have one or two schticks, and they stick to those schticks, for this very reason.... to make remembering progressions for jamming all that much easier. There are a few exceptions of course, but for the most part, if one listens to, and doesn't just "hear" surf music, one can pick out certain distinguishing characteristics that diffentiate most bands, one from another. Not hard to do, if one so wishes. But equally, it's not necessary to do that in order enjoy the wild rush of dripping reverb! Just go with it, I'm sure that we'll all be happy with it, once we start moving again. ..... BTW, I bought some new picks the other day, really thin ones. I'm gonna go fire up the 'tank, and see what they sound like. HTH sumgai
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Post by newey on Sept 6, 2010 20:52:12 GMT -5
Just don't soak the floor in beer first. ;D ;D It isn't one of them vintage 2-prong plug ones, is it?
Seriously, though, I like where this is going. Time for some bottom, perhaps?
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 6, 2010 21:26:36 GMT -5
Just to be clear- that rhythm guitar part is & always was a demo, just a scratch track and c1 looped it together to fit the whole song. Keep in mind when we get to work on the real deal, that guitar part won't be there.
ozboomer has some rhythmic ideas, & I was playing around with substituting a Dm for the F in a couple of places. I think so long as we stay in the same key & structure there's still some leeway in the rhythm part. It might be fun to hear the progression approached from different angles within the same song- (so let's hear from you rhythm players. ) This would almost require the bass part to go in after the rhythm guitar.
There seems to be a consensus that this song weighs in a bit long. I would agree, except there are only 8 verses not counting the intro, if there are 4 players that's 2 verses each, more players means less to go around. If we don't get a lot of folks playing & we don't fill it up, it's easy enough surgically remove a half a minute or whatever before we wrap it up.
I like where we're at so far, I'm looking forward to the final drum track.
-lpf3
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 6, 2010 22:30:10 GMT -5
lpf3 is correct, this is ONLY a DEMO. Aside from the actual drum track...which I'm still cleaning up, everything else is open to revision.
And I knew sg's proclivity for a song under 3:00...but as lpf3 points out, at 3:16:11 that's still a tight fit when everyone starts showing up and wants to play.
The way the drum track is assembled it would require pulling 16 bars out of this song to get it under 3:00 close to the 2:45 sg refers to. As it is now, the 16 bar progression repeats 8 times, less the 5-bar intro.
I can shave it, but you guys have to tell me where. I'll hold off mixing this down until I see a consensus.
For reference, here's the drum track mapped in its entirety.
Surf Drums - 165 BPM - 3:16:11
Measure/Beats - (Time Format) Description
EDIT: 20100911 - This was removed as it no longer applied...and to eliminate confusion down the road...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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