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Post by cynical1 on Sept 7, 2010 9:41:57 GMT -5
OK, I sat down and looked at this again today and I'm presenting a few options.
Let's start with the actual time of the drum track so far.
Total running time is 3:16:11, but there is 2:27 seconds of dead air at the beginning of the track as a silent lead in...time to adjust the strap, check the volume, get the pick out of your teeth...whatever...
03:16:11 Total Running Time 00:02:27 Dead Air
03:13:44 Actual Current Running Time (8 repititions of 16 bar pattern with lead-in)
So, I understand that this is a bit long for you purists out there...so how about this. If I pull Pattern 1 and the fills from measure 8:01 through 16:01, then pull Pattern 2 and fills out from 16:01 through 24:01 that will take 23:09, or 16 bars, out of the song.
03:13:44 Actual Current Running Time 00:23:09 Pulled Patterns from bars 8:01 through 24:01
02:50:35 First Revised running Time (7 repititions of 16 bar pattern with lead-in)
Now, if 02:50:35 doesn't sound thin enough I can pull another 16 bars out somewhere. Here's what you'd have then:
02:50:35 First Revised running Time 00:23:09 Pulled 16 bars worth of Patterns from somewhere else
02:27:26 Second Revised running Time. (6 repititions of 16 bar pattern with lead-in)
This is closer to where sg wants it to be. I don't see a point in taking it down any more then this, as it'll be like the subway at rush hour trying to get anyone into the song.
As the assembly of this digital track involves breaking out individual components to achieve a good balance in the final mix...read this as it'll take we a few days to knock this out...I genuinely don't want re-map this track and do a final mix just to have to change it again later.
Rest assured, I hate deadlines as much as the next guy, but I don't want to see this mired down from paralysis through analysis...so, the next drum track mix is going to be the final one. If you have an opinion now is the time to voice it loudly and proudly as the Polls will be closing this Thursday at the latest. And as we say in Chicago, "It's Election Day, vote early, vote often."
So, let's hear some votes or opinions, as I'm holding off finalizing this until we have an agreement on what exactly I'm mixing down here.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Sept 7, 2010 15:50:21 GMT -5
c1, I'd say, "Let me clear here", as any good politician (Chicago or elsewhere) would say. ;D I don't require that this thing be some exact length, I only "had a vision", and that's all. Like all other things in life, visions are subject to interpretation by others within my reality set. (What's that pinwheel sound I hear? ) But..... Not only have many of you forgotten the "magic time formula" of early R'n'R AM radio (which admittedly, several of you didn't get to experience first hand), but there's another facet here. While I alluded to a Jam, as in the much-annointed Blues fest heralded by ash, newey, c1 and others, I have repeatedly said, and I quote: "not a jam, it's a structured construct". At least a few members here keep thinking "jam - where one person stands out and solos for 8 or 16 bars". Not so!!! But wait, you cry, what about all the players that wanna get in on this? Easy, my friends, easy as pie...... (and here's where the rubber meets the road, or as Frank Zappa would have it, where the perturbed air molecules are finally captured) - In many of the great surf bands of the past, most if not all had at least 5 members, and more than a few had 6 members. Say what?!?! That's right, go back and look at Pipeline by The Chanteys - 5 guys. Baja by The Astronauts - 5 guys. Miserlou by Dick Dale - 7 (count 'em, seven) guys! All of them had at least two guitars, some had three (DD had, for some time, 3 guitars behind his own). In many instances, some players would multi-task - I myself started out in this very vein, way back when. (Sax and rhythm parts, no bass back then.) What I'm saying here is that we can get a lot of musical talent into a short time frame, if we take care not to step on anyone's toes, but at the same time, we work to make sure that everyone's part can be heard. In real life, particularly in surf music (remember, it's all instrumental), it's not all about guitars, 100% of the time. Old-school or new-wave, you're just as likely to hear a piano, an organ (Vox, Wurlitzer, Farfisa, Hammond, etc.), a sax (tenor or alto), a trumpet (Miserlou, anyone?), even a set of bongos! (Preston Epps.....) This is where we get into much of early Rock'n'Roll's stylings. Knowing that many of those kids had a pretty good start on a classical music education (several years of junior/senior high school bands/orchestras), they had a very strong notion of melody, counter-melody, harmonies, and of course, rhythm. Which goes to explain why they could put 5, 6, 7, even more guys on a stage, and no one felt left out, no one felt like the other guy was hogging the limelight, and everyone felt like they'd done it right. (Well, obviously there was the occasional screw-up, but hey, that's the exception, not the norm, OK?) What I'm trying to say here is, we can all get in on the action, and all at nearly the same time, well within the alloted time frame. (Although this would be a good time to reiterate that I am not in charge, if it goes 3:16, then that's the way of it. It's not like I'm trying to make up for some long-lost opportunity that I missed or sumpin'..... ) I hope you're begining to see, and understand, what c1 has stated more than once, early on in this thread. The bass sounds like it's supporting the lead guitar. No, not quite..... and yet, yes, totally so. In much of surf music, the bass is providing a counter melody, because the rhythm guitar(s) and keyboards are putting in the chordal structure. Other times the bass is "merely" underpinning the chordal structure, and the horns are doing the counter-melody. Still other times.... well, you're getting the idea, I'm sure, no need to belabor the point, eh? c1, my vote is to leave the track at 3:16, and go get a beer. (Just don't spill it where I might be plugging in my 'tank, whilst trying my new picks!). My feelings are known, and are not hurt in the least by the general populace's desire to irritate even more air molecules. HTH sumgai
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Post by 4real on Sept 7, 2010 17:48:52 GMT -5
Hey...Kudo's for the track, haven't heard the latest version, but had fun writing a 'tune' to go along with it..with all the usual surf-isms, fun to play...but not too derivative. I haven't picked up it there is a 'tune' as such planned...the drums are probably better planned around the melody perhaps. I could tab out the tune, not sure about recording. But you might tackle this project in people playing preset parts...the tune I 'wrote' have kinds of 'sections'...or perhaps each person create their own 'surf' tune for it. Surf is a far more 'composed' form, not like jamming the blues and improvising...but that doesn't make it any 'less' for it or 'easy', that is in itself the challenge. So too, coming up with something 'original' while keeping the 'fell' of the genre. But hey, for all the improvising, a lot of blues is pretty derivative too, sometimes creating and playing a "part" is a lot harder than whipping out a few stock SRV licks of something. Anyway, a sequence that has a fair bit of potential, I particularly liked playing stuff over the F-E movements...lots of semitones and trills
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 7, 2010 18:47:24 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to be confrontational, just trying to move things ahead...ok, I was also trying to save myself from re-doing the track again...
Don't be bashful. If you think a trimmed down version works then sing out.
In the blues jam we laid down drums, agreed on a progression, dropped in the bass and waited for everyone to show up.
SG makes some very good points that are not lost on me. We can't do that here as this tune, no matter how long or short, needs to be charted out before the bass and lead work even thinks of rearing its ugly heads...and the bass may very well be the last thing cut on this track...
I went back and looked for the longest popular surf tunes I could find...and this is what I noticed:
The Ventures - Tequilla - 2:47 The Ventures - Wipe Out - 3:01 The Ventures - Pipeline - 3:09 (long version) The Tornados - Stingray - 2:52 Dick Dale - Misirlou - 2:40 The Astronauts - Surf's You Right - 2:52 The Shadows - The Rise and Fall of Flingel Bunt - 2:46 The Atlantics - Stompin' Time - 2:51
The more I think about it, dropping 16 bars out of this tune ain't such a bad idea. Makes it more adherent to the original motivation. And if Mr. Radiohead talks the tune to the post then you're almost right at 2:45.
So, my vote is to rip 16 bars out, which cuts it to 02:50:35 total running time.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Sept 7, 2010 20:01:59 GMT -5
c1,
Well, I'm certainly OK with the shorter running time. I don't want to seem like I'm waffling, but to me it's more important that I don't appear to be "forcing" my viewpoint on everyone else. For that reason alone, either way gets my squeal of approval.
But it goes without saying, so I'll say it anyways..... thanks for the research that fairly much vindicates my position. ;D
pete (4real), you can tab out whatever you like, I'm sure that at least one of us will enjoy taking a crack at whatever you come up with.
sumgai
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Post by newey on Sept 7, 2010 23:01:32 GMT -5
I also think a shorter run time will keep things punchy and fresh. As far as getting everyone into the mix, sumgai has a point- I may just stick in a half-baked glissando or sumpin' . . .
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Post by Yew on Sept 8, 2010 4:36:34 GMT -5
I call a ukulele solo
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 8, 2010 5:33:23 GMT -5
I call a ukulele solo ...cute... You bring an accordion and we put you in the bathroom...
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 8, 2010 8:38:18 GMT -5
That's where the best reverb is..........
-lpf3
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 8, 2010 9:45:01 GMT -5
I was playing with the drum track last night, pulled 16 bars out and cut the intro from 5 to 4 bars. The track now runs just under 2:50.
If no one objects to that I'll run a demo tonight and put it up for review.
If it passes muster I'll start mixing down the .wav file for mass distribution.
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on Sept 8, 2010 13:58:09 GMT -5
Hmmm, I'm getting a bit stoke on this..... c1 and I have been back-channeling lately, and I think he's gonna have a pretty wild ride for us, RSN. My reservations about the-chicken-or-the-egg conundrum notwithstanding, I foresee room for several contributors to fit in side-by-side, with no problems. I have advised c1 that if he can't dream up a bass part, then he should just steal something from any early Ventures album. Oh, and those new-fangled old-fashioned uber-thin picks I picked up the other day? Noticibly more "fwip" from the tank. The tone is perhaps a bit more treble-ish, but that might be just me, I dunno. I'll keep playing around for awhile, and perhaps report back in again...... sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Sept 8, 2010 14:06:14 GMT -5
Truer words were never spoken...
HTC1 Beside my Sam Kinison clip, here's yet more proof that you've done checked out: Five HorsesWhen you gonna want that amp fixed, eh? sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 8, 2010 21:40:21 GMT -5
And now, for your listening pleasure, here's the shortened versions of the drum track. This is only an .mp3 and SHOULD NOT be used to sync your final tracks for submission. It's just here for you to get an idea of what the final will sound like and to help you start to work out your parts. Surf Drums - 4th Demo - Drums onlyThere is a bar of dead air and two bars of a hi-hat click in to give you time to get click a mouse button and get ready, put your cigarette down...or spill beer on your socks... This will NOT be in the final mix. For giggles I re-mixed the guitar part in real quick to give you an idea of what it sounds like with something else in there with it. Surf Jam - Short demo of guitar and drumsAnd, as lpf3 was so quick to point out last time, the guitar in this demo is not the guitar for the song. It's only there as a representation of a progression...and it helped me work out the last of the metronome like qualities of the first demo... If I hear no complaints I'll start working this drum track down to a .wav file for final distribution. Happy Trails Cynical One EDIT: BTW, can anyone tell me what type of reverb is on lpf3's guitar?
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 11, 2010 0:14:10 GMT -5
Truer words were never spoken...
HTC1 Beside my Sam Kinison clip, here's yet more proof that you've done checked out: Five HorsesWhen you gonna want that amp fixed, eh? sumgai lol! 2 reasons i havent got that amp fixed: 1: busy as hell, B: broke as hell, and 1a: it works most the time.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 11, 2010 19:58:38 GMT -5
Still no guesses on the type of reverb on lpf3's guitar... I would have thought SG would have been all over this one...
Hmmm....
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on Sept 12, 2010 1:10:12 GMT -5
Still no guesses on the type of reverb on lpf3's guitar... I would have thought SG would have been all over this one...
Hmmm....
HTC1 uhhhh........ I didn't know there was a contest going on - care to enlighten an old man?
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Post by gumbo on Sept 12, 2010 4:20:15 GMT -5
Reverb??? ...in the bathroom standing next to the accordion..... ;D
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 12, 2010 7:20:05 GMT -5
Hell, I'm lpf3 and I don't even know...........
;D lpf3
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 12, 2010 9:25:37 GMT -5
First off...I wasn't kidding about the accordion...once the accordion player showed up at my first wedding I took it as an omen...and I get the shakes around them ever since... And the .vst plugin in question is Softubes Spring Reverb. They have some demo's on their site that are worth checking out. Honestly, until now, I never used this much...for two reasons...I play bass...and it always sounded too "surfy"... I got this in a Effects bundle for $25.00 at a formerly local music store that was going way of all things about a year ago during their "Fired Sale". I digress... Well, first you take the mono clean guitar track lpf3 very kindly sent me to sync the drum track...listen to about 40 hours of surf music through an iPod...and you do something like this... The first thing I added was a Mono to Stereo Doubler .vst. This may raise a few eyebrows, but I wanted as big a signal as I could get going into the reverb. Now that the track was stereo I added the Spring Reverb 50/50 wet/dry - set for One spring on loose tension, slight boost to bass and treble. To fill it out a bit more I tossed in some room simulation. Not being the one to leave well enough alone I ran an Effects Bus with another Spring Reverb with 3 springs at maximum tension cut down about -6 db from the track. Then just a little peak limiting, compression and a bit of EQ. I did a quick little clip of what the different steps accomplished in contorting the guitar track to "surf" it up: How to put reverb on lpf3's guitarGranted, it ain't live, but for about 15-20 minutes of piddling around it's passable. I await sg's review of said plug-in to see if it gets his thumbs up or down. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Sept 12, 2010 10:33:54 GMT -5
c1, Weeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.................................................... I certainly won't pee in your Cheerios, but that is only a rhythm track, so the fact that it sounds like a reverb simulator can be accepted with ease. Now don't take me wrong here, I like the sound I'm hearing, but I think you've put too much effort into it, for the final effect. IMO, you could've stopped at the stage where you entered the first reverb (50/50 wet/dry). For rhythm parts, that sounded pretty good right there. OTOH, I don't wanna inhibit your Nutzliness, so by all means, continue to march as you see fit. I think what the real problem is, for software production, is that a spring reverb gives a certain "fwip" when the string is initially plucked, and software has yet to pick up on that little factoid. (Probably because this particular "effect" has little value outside of surf music, or so I suspect.) Anyway, here's how it works: When the pick first lets go of the string, the string is not yet vibrating at it's resonant frequency (mass times tension, etc.) What it is producing for a very brief period is what we call white noise. Now, if one palm-mutes (yet another "nice" mis-naming.... it's heel-muted) the string at the bridge, the envelope of the sound is heavily curtailed. All we have left is the initial attack, and some of that attack's decay. (ADSR - attack, decay, sustain and release.) Under normal playing conditions (if surf music can ever regain the label of "normal"), the reverb springs see that attack of white noise, and do their magic. But there's no following sustain of a musical frequency, so what we hear is noise that's been time-extended, and has no particular frequency..... white noise being defined as a wide band of frequencies, all at approximately the same strength. This is that famous magic Mojo called "fwip". When all the cards are on the table, fwip is what defines surf music. Without a generous helping of it, all you have left is yet-another-instrumental surf-wannabe. (Dick Dale's first album notwithstanding!) So now we're in a pickle. If we record a sample of heel-muted notes (the opening glissando of Pipeline, for example), can we then feed that recording into a Fender Reverb Unit, and get something back out that sounds like "the real thing"? I dunno. I think it'd be worth a try, at least. But I have my suspicions that if the signal strength isn't strong enough (a pick stroke can get pretty powerful), then this experiment might not come out with the hoped-for results. Just a gut-feeling, no real physical evidence of such..... I'd like to go dust off the gear, and see what I can pump out for a few seconds, to demonstrate what I'm talking about. Sadly, I've got a booth in a trade show next week, so everything musical has been put on the back burner for the last several days, in preparation for said show. (No. Don't ask, and I won't have to kill you. ) Perhaps someone else here with either an FRU or the Boss equivalent (model FRV-1) can step up to the plate... perhaps? Any takers out there, so's we can keep this discussion rolling? To close, I think it was ash who said, back on the first or second page, that the effect of reverb on the guitar's signal has to be part of the initial recording, and not a during-production added effect. In my monologue above, I said that I think it's worth trying other methods, but after all this time, I've yet to hear of a recording that accomplishes the mission. (Of course, they do call me "mushroom" for a good reason. ;D) In short, this track sounds more than good enough for a rhythm part, and I wholeheartedly give it my Squeal Of Approval! HTH sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 12, 2010 12:45:35 GMT -5
Well, I listened to it on my laptop speakers, so my opinion might need a whole shaker full of salt, but it really kind of sounds like a clean guitar absolutely drenched in artificial reverb. I know this is just a quick demonstration, but if all of the tracks are going to be that wet, I'm afraid this things going to turn into a mushy, watery, indistinct mess before long.
First, I want to know what in the heckbuckets is a "Mono to Stereo doubler" plugin? Is that like panning the track to center and boosting it ~6db? Or is it doing some weird phase manipulation to fake some ultrawide stereoness which will fall apart entirely when summed to mono? Does your reverb plugin actually maintain stereo all the way through? I'm sure you're aware that the spring reverb on a real amp is mono, right?
Part of the thing with amp reverb is that it comes through the power amp section of the amp, and the speaker cabinet along with the rest of the signal. That sounds obvious, but it's important to remember. Any coloration (compression, distortion, or filtering) coming from the power amp will affect the reverb and the guitar at the same time. In fact, the compression will tend to react differently to both signals than it would to either one by itself. Since we're keeping things clean here, that's maybe not such a big concern.
The speaker/cabinet is a different deal though. The speaker isn't going to pass much of anything above 5K no matter where it's coming from, and the cabinet will add its resonance to everything coming through it.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 12, 2010 17:49:35 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more that a live recording directly from an amp with all of your settings dead on while you're playing is far more preferable then trying to replicate it after the fact with plugins. I stopped going DI because of this and mic everything I record.
Before everyone picks a side and starts shooting, this was merely a quick overview of how I dumped the reverb onto lpf3's guitar for a demo track. SG wanted to hear a spring reverb plug-in, so I obliged. Since this was only drums and guitar I pushed more onto the track then I would if there were more tracks to be mixed in. Like Congress, an elephant gun on a mouse. And laptop speakers make everything sound...unique...
The M/S Doubler takes the original signal, and in the case of a mono signal, it centers the mono and tosses a left and right signal out, in this case dropped -6 DB. You can get tricky with the placement of the doubled tracks, you can split them into 4 tracks and locate them anywhere in the spectrum, detune them, EQ them...in this case I just split them.
And from my limited observations...a good deal of surf music sounds like a clean guitar with a bucket load of reverb on it...no offense SG... I can see where nailing your sound BEFORE you cut the track is even more critical in this genere...especially on the solos.
As far as tracks for the jam, this one isn't going to be in there anyway. I don't envision a lot of players, so I don't think it's going to mush up too bad. The drums are clean, the bass is going to be clean, so maybe we'll have one rhythm track and one lead.
Speaking of guitar tracks...anyone nail down the progressions in this tune yet?
HTC1
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Post by newey on Sept 12, 2010 19:40:20 GMT -5
Cyn, I think it was a dandy demonstration. I liked the 2 reverb tanks, but I'd lose the room slmulation.
sg- I agree that using an actual FRU would be nice, but you seem to be the only one that has one . . . (I've still got that Valve Junior-to-Reverb-Unit conversion on my mind, mebbe someday).
lpf3-
Did you ever get your Twin Reverb running right? (I seem to recall you did). If so, I know you've got a mic around somewheres, mic up the Twin, crank the 'verb, and put the reverb in the track from the git-go. We can then compare.
While the unit in a Twin isn't an FRU, it's a pretty darn good reverb, many a surf track has been cut with nothing more than that amp. Come to think, much of everything was cut with that amp . . .
Of course, the Dual Showman is the righteous surf rig, but Twins can get the sound, too.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 12, 2010 22:27:25 GMT -5
Oh Hell Yeah, Twins can get "that" sound! I've got a twin from the 70's, blackfaced and modded "a bit".... I don't often haul it out, but once in a great while I give it some exercise. Truth to tell though, I just plain like the sound of the FRU through my GK 400RBIII, and then thru my Ampeg 410HLF - eats Showmans for breakfast, bwahahaha! The upshot of all this is, we're agreed that for surf music in particular, one must apply the desired amount of reverb (meaning, get that "fwip") during the playing/recording process, not afterwards. Sadly, I have to say, if this was a "spring reverb" plug-in, it wasn't used for the reason springs are used..... need I repeat myself so soon? Heel-mute, double-pick, glissando, and it's Surfin' Time! ;D Plate, electronic (delay lines), all of those reverb types can do pretty much the same thing, they just do it with different tonalities. Springs also have a unique tonality, but we don't often hear it directly. My FRU can be plugged directly into a mixer, perhaps I should try that..... This would eliminate the amp's tone-stack and any coloration from the speakers/cab(s). Might be interesting, in an experimental way..... ~!~!~!~!~ Now, to side-track this for a bit..... I've downloaded about an internetload of surf music lately. Picked up something like 45 gigs worth in just the last week alone. (Hell, I needed to foist some of my other stuff off on my backup drive, just to make room. I gotta invest in another drive, RSN.) But the point is, I'm getting a sense of a lot of old stuff out there, not just from California in the 60's, but also from around the world. This is what the webs are for - I never heard of 80% of these bands, nor their material, but you know what - it's pretty good stuff! In all that embarrasment of riches, the fwip is not as prevalent as I once thought, way back when. Many tunes don't use it very much, if at all, and yet they are undeniably surf music. So, in light of that, I'd have to apologize to you all for having come across as a Fwip Nazi, or some-such. I hereby retract my statements that meant "if it ain't got that fwip, it ain't surf music", or close to that. I do, however, stand by my assertion that surf music is instrumental only, and all of my recent largesse has confirmed that, in spades. So, if we're ready to go back into the studio...... Maestro, if you please.......... (ah one, ah two, ah......) sumgai p.s. Perhaps I'll start posting a list of what I've gotten, and from where. So far as I can tell, I've not stepped on any copyright toes, but as usual, that's subject to change according to a lawyer's thinking processes.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 23, 2010 20:52:37 GMT -5
Alright, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth, I have a final mix of the drum track. I didn't have time to do a map of it all charted out, but when time allows the odds are I might knock one out and post it. In the meantime, here it is: Surf Drum MixIt's a 30.5MB .wav file - 44100/16bit/stereo There's 3 measures of click track on the way in that won't be in the final mix. Enjoy. Happy Trials Cynical One
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Post by newey on Sept 27, 2010 0:41:25 GMT -5
OK, guys and gals! Cynical1 has labored mightily and has the goods for the backbeat. Now, who will step up to the plate? (That's a baseball metaphor, for our Commonwealth friends. I don't know any good cricket metaphors . . . ) Since surf is not a jam-based genre, I think the way to proceed is for someone to tab out a set melody, and then others can play around it.
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 27, 2010 7:55:25 GMT -5
Anybody else workin' on a progression?
I took a suggestion from an earlier post by ozboomer & I like it better- I've modified my progression as follows:
Originally-
Am- F- E- E7 Am- F- E- E7 F- E; F-E- E7
Modified-
Am- G- F- E- E7 Am- G- F- E F- Am; Dm7- E
I'll try to get a demo up later today- but it's pretty simple, if anyone else has any ideas and wants to work together let us (me) know.
-lpf3
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Post by sumgai on Sept 27, 2010 11:40:45 GMT -5
3,
Awaiting that demo!
I tried your progression over c1's track.... took some doing, and I may not be doing what you were thinking of.....
in re: My above note about posting my sources
I'm still at it, gathering stuff up like a black-hole, hehehe. I'm also tied up doing some contract work for someone who needs a conversion tool (changing data from one format to another), and that's gonna be at least another week before we nail that down. But after that, I'll start another thread in The Coffee Shop.
sumgai
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 27, 2010 18:22:31 GMT -5
Well, if you're like me it's alot easier to hear something than it is to try and play it based on a description, so here ya's go. Just a couple o' verses to demo the progression. I like it better than the old one- you guys let me know what you think, like, can we play Surf over this? -lpf3
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Post by sumgai on Sept 28, 2010 18:11:39 GMT -5
lp, If Mark Knopfler heard that...... But not too bad, even so. Still...... Part of the "power" in an ocean's wave is the fact that it "crashes" upon the shore. That crash is short in duration, albeit the build-up can last for quite awhile. But much of that "surf sound" is very staccato in duration - in other words, the notes themselves don't live very long, almost like they're chopped off. This is yet another reason reverb caught on, it lends the staccato note that sound of a crash, followed by a lingering dull roar. That's what surf music players go for, at least that's what they tried to achieve back in the day. Much of the rhythm accompaniement is also staccato, but I don't think that's an absolute requirement. But where there is legato (the opposite of staccato), there needs to be much less reverb, or else the overall sound gets muddy in a hurry. But as c1 will tell you, the rhythm parts of many first-wave surf tunes had the second-fiddle playing background stuff that required a spring reverb tank, in order to get that fwip that I'm always so on about. Sometimes it's a mixture - picture the Venture's release of Walk Don't Run '64 (making them one of the very few groups to ever hit the top ten with two differing versions of the same tune (not just a re-release of the same previous recording)) - Wilson starts out with maximum fwip, then when the lead takes over, he goes to chunking out the chords. Notice that he almost never lets them ring out, except perhaps at the end of a phrase, where everyone else is momentarly silent. This isn't a hallmark of surf-guitardom, but it's often imitated throughout the genre. Note too that without reverb on his guitar, the overall feel of the tune wouldn't've been as hard-hitting. But I digress...... sorry 'bout that. Currently my stuff is all packed away, and I don't foresee getting it back out and set up any time soon. All I can say is, business better stay booming, or something's gonna give, and it won't be pretty. All of which means that I'm outta the loop for the near-term future here. Any a youse guys wanna get it on, don't wait for me! sumgai
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