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Post by greeneyezzz on Jul 7, 2010 16:46:02 GMT -5
Hi, I want to adapt my Ibanez 7 string to the pups wiring scheme of the Ibanez JPM Model. (3 way switch, mid position has middle 2 single coils active and hum canceling) I have found the schematic, and it seems that when in the mid position, the 2 single coils are actually in parallel instead of the regular in series. That is, if I measure out the Fender 3 way switch schema. JPM actually uses a 4PDT switch (Dimarzio #EP1111) so I assume it is possible that the JPM wiring has the 2 mid single coils actually in series! (I hope anyone can still follow this) but I cant find a switching diagram of that swithc (what pins acually connect in the 3 positions) Here is the schema (labeled JPM minus the tone pot cause that's what I want) www.sevenstring.org/forum/pickups-electronics-and-general-tech/107821-complete-dimarzio-pickup-routing-specs-wiring-diagrams.htmlCan anyone tell me wether the JPM model has the 2 single coils in series or in parallel in the mid position? thaaaaaaanks!!!!
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2010 17:31:10 GMT -5
Hey! Thanks for stopping by! The version w/the 4PDT switch is parallel wiring. Unless I'm completely mistaken, it seems that (as shown) it splits to the opposite coils from what the Tele switch will do for you. This post will show you how that 4PDT works. At top in the middle under "Three-Way Toggle Switches On-On-On" We might be able to get you a series combination there, but I don't have time to work that out right now.
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Post by newey on Jul 7, 2010 19:10:36 GMT -5
Ash referred to Chris' diagrams: which shows the switch logic of this 4PDT to be such that, with the switch all the way right, all 4 left lugs connect to common, and the opposite when to the left. This is how I would have expected it to be. But looking at the diagram linked to above by greeneyezzz, it would appear that the switch logic would need to be like this: Although I may have mirror-imaged it L to R, you get the idea. If the switch worked as shown in Chris' diagram, the center position gives the inner coils as called for, but the outer positions don't get anything- unless the switch is as above. Now, the diagram calls for a specific Dimarzio part no., and I'm wondering if this isn't an oddball 4PDT configuration. First of all, am I correct or am I missing something? And if I'm right, we may need to have greeneyezzz confirm the switch logic with a multimeter before we get to wiring schemes for series.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2010 20:22:10 GMT -5
Newey, I think you should look at that again. The diagram assumes that the fourth wire of each pickup hits ground somewhere.
Can anybody think of a reason we can't actually show the pic in this thread, rather than having to link over there? Also , that link might find a good home over in our reference section somewhere.
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Post by newey on Jul 7, 2010 21:02:53 GMT -5
Got it, so we're OK with the switch. And the goal is N/N*B/B.
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Post by D2o on Jul 7, 2010 21:20:22 GMT -5
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2010 21:31:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I was talking about this picture: ...but that's good too.
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Post by D2o on Jul 7, 2010 21:45:38 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Jul 7, 2010 22:16:32 GMT -5
Greeneyes- If you hang around here long enough, you'll learn that I'm the one who jumps in the deep end of the pool and almost ends up drowning, until I'm rescued by those more knowledgeable. IOW, my first attempts are often wrong, but it's never deterred me from publicly humiliating myself. So here goes nothing: This is probably the most Rube Goldberg-ish way to do this, but I think it works. Although, as I look back at your posts here, it's not clear to me if you're using the toggle or the tele switch. If it's to be the Tele switch, well, then it's back to the drawing board. I am also not sure I've got the phasing right, since I wired the HBs "inside out", to use Wolf's phrase. Nor am I sure on the right coils, N and S, being active in the middle position.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 7, 2010 22:40:32 GMT -5
To: Staff Subject: Nomenclature Victim: greeneyezzz
Guys, The Jealous One has fallen prey to something we've seen here before. Sadly, there persists, thanks be and all praise to Tim Berners-Lee, a very pathologically wrong assumption that series connections are the only way to obtain humbucking results. And the corollary is of course, that parallel connections are bad, bad, bad.
If you take that into consideration, I think you'll find greeneyezzz's request much easier to fulfill.
BTW, for the sharp-eyed amongst you..... you'll note a note at the bottom of each drawing - "All other pickup wires not shown or mentioned go to ground." Since the diagrams in question show only three wires, I'm gonna assume that each pup has at least one wire going to ground. How many of you accounted for that during your analyses?
HTH
sumgai
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Post by newey on Jul 7, 2010 22:56:21 GMT -5
Well, if the inner coils in parallel were what greeneyezzz wanted, we don't have to fulfill his request- he's got the DiMarzio diagram for that. He said he wanted series there. I don't perceive that worries about hum-cancelling are any part of that. The "wide middle HB" is the goal here, isn't it? I did, after Ash corrected me.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 8, 2010 0:13:04 GMT -5
I didn't read the fine print, but it's the only way that it made any darn sense to me! Something looks screwey there newey, but I haven't followed it all the way through. Here with a Tele switch: And here with the 4PDT: Note: To maintain hum-cancellation you must not wire one of the pickups "inside out" for either of these schemes. If it turns out you want the other coil from each HB in the middle position, you could wire them both "inside out".
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Post by greeneyezzz on Jul 8, 2010 6:02:21 GMT -5
holy cow! this appears to be a really active forum with lots of guitarfreaks!!! Yeeeeeey!! ;D I've come home!!
thanks for all the responses guys! I will need some time to digest them all tho ;-) (and probably go into massive overload and break down)
I am currently looking at options for the 3way tele switch because there was a 5way installed so I dont need to drill holes. However, if it turns out that the JPM model uses the EP1111 to get both singles in series (which cant be done with yer standard 3 way tele type), well I guess I'll have to hurt the body a bit ;-)
Parallel will give a drop in volume, but I intend to use it for cleans only, so I'll just have to crank up the clean channel a bit more I guess...
I'll be back...
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 8, 2010 10:53:41 GMT -5
... However, if it turns out that the JPM model uses the EP1111 to get both singles in series... It doesn't. the first clue is that each pickup has one wire always connected to ground. Sure it can, see my last reply.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 8, 2010 11:33:05 GMT -5
... However, if it turns out that the JPM model uses the EP1111 to get both singles in series... It doesn't. the first clue is that each pickup has one wire always connected to ground.Errr..... not quite. The way I'm seeing it, the upper coil-pair only sees ground after going through the lower coil-pair, or through the switch. Yes, it gets to ground eventually, but the path is selectable. Which gives the truth to your next statement: And here's the proof of the pudding. All coils are in series, hot to ground, at all times. The selector switch shorts the upper-most coil-pair in order to obtain the lower coil-pair only, vice-versa to get the lower coil-pair only, and the upper- and lower-most coils when in the middle position, yielding the one-coil-from-each-pair combo. IOW, this is a "wolf" circuit if I've ever seen one. ;D HTH sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 8, 2010 12:22:17 GMT -5
Dude?!?!? I only see 6 pickup wires represented in either of the JPM diagrams. Since each pickup is presumed to have 4 wires, there are 2 missing (4+4=8, 8-6=2). So which two are those? Well I see Bridge (red), Bridge (black+white), Neck (white) and Neck (red+green). So I guess we're missing Bridge (green) and Neck (black). Where are they? "All other pickup wires not shown or mentioned go to ground." sumgai Another clue comes from the fact that , in the middle position, both "series connections" go to ground. That ain't a series connection. I did have the feeling that a search of Wolf's site would have saved me some doodling time, but...
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Post by wolf on Jul 8, 2010 14:19:02 GMT -5
Well, I see my name has been mentioned several times in this thread so I might as well join the discussion. If you want all those fancy wiring options (inner coils series, inner coils parallel, etc) might I suggest my own website? I think the Super-Seven Switching modification opens up a huge amount of sound options for you. www.1728.com/guitar6.htm I've done this wiring nine times so the diagram must be corrrect.
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Post by greeneyezzz on Jul 8, 2010 17:36:28 GMT -5
thanks y'all!!
Now I have some options! ;D
time to warm up the soldering iron again!
I'll let ya know how it worked out, I'm using an Air Norton7 neck and D-Sonic7 bridge.
thx!!
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Post by wolf on Jul 8, 2010 18:43:11 GMT -5
greeneyezzz If for some reason you decide on the "Super Seven Switching", you'd better be really sure you want to drill all those holes in your guitar. But I must admit (in my humble opinion) it offers a huge amount of tone options. (72 switching positions)
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Post by sumgai on Jul 9, 2010 5:05:27 GMT -5
ash, Dude?!?!? ...... Another clue comes from the fact that , in the middle position, both "series connections" go to ground. That ain't a series connection. I know, I'm the one that said - "what about the missing wires implied in the disclaimer?" But OTOH, since there's no specific mention that the diagram is made for four-wire pups, then it stands to reason that it works with either three- or four-wire pups. It boils down to you assuming that there must a fourth wire, and it must be going to ground. I'm assuming that a three-wire pup is sufficient for GEzzz's needs, and even if his units are four-wire jobbies, it's a no-brainer to make them work in this circuit anyways. greeneyezzz, I've made these diagrams so you can follow the signal path for each switch position. It turns out that the drawing shows the outer pair connected in series in the middle position, but that's just a generic wiring schematic. How you orient the pickups during mounting, and which colors you select to hook up to which switch terminal, that's all up to you - you're free to use the inner pair, or the outer pair, or you can even physically rotate one of the pups, and have inner/outer (whichever), all still in series, and all still humbucking. In the following diagrams, I left out the lead colors - there are no standards, so they'd just be confusing anyway. HTH sumgai
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Post by newey on Jul 9, 2010 5:38:41 GMT -5
I think it's time we veteran Nutz all got on the same page here, before we give greeneyezzz a conniption fit.
Early on Ash, stated:
He recognized that the 4PDT diagram and the Tele switch diagram shown by DiMarzio were not identical. SG's schematic shows that, in fact, the Tele diagram does give series in the middle position.
Which is all well and good, as Greeneyezzz has now indicated he's using a Tele switch, so he's good to go.
Later, Ash noted that:
That is true, with reference to the 4PDT diagram- which does show the inner coils in parallel in the center position, and does show both pickups "series junctions" going to ground in the center position. This is not the case with the Tele switch version (either as drawn by DiMarzio or SG)
In short, Ash was right from the start that the 2 diagrams were not the same. I didn't check to see if the coils selected were in fact the same, but the 4PDT diagram does not have the middle position in series, while the Tele diagram does.
And that difference has engendered a lot of confusion here. Especially since DiMarzio represents them to be the same.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 9, 2010 10:54:49 GMT -5
I think it's time we veteran Nutz all got on the same page here, before we give greeneyezzz a conniption fit. I agree. Can we get on the same correct page, though please? I thought we were arguing about the 4PDT, but I guess now it's the Tele switch. That's a parallel connection, too, with the coils shunted to hot rather than ground. Sumgai's drawings prove that my Tele switch solution works in series, but doesn't look anything like the JPM version, which has the commons tied together and going to the volume control.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 9, 2010 12:14:42 GMT -5
ash, I'm sorry man, the heat in Duluth must be weaking your absorption rate.... Your diagram, from which I made my version, is exactly the same as the one reputed to be the JPM version, as posted/linked on the 7string Forum. In each case, the switch commons are tied together and thence to the Volume pot's hot terminal. But as my individual path diagrams show, that has no effect on the final outcome. In fact, it's necessary that the commons go somewhere together, be it ground or the Volume pot's hot terminal. Yes, that's right, you could swap the "ground" and "hot" positions of the pups-and-switch module, and the circuit would still work as intended. Proof enough for me that this is "series dominant". (To borrow a term from Unklmickey.) Not to be analytical or anything, but I think you're mixing pickup hots with switch commons, since the latter usually go to the Volume pot and such. Don't worry, I've done the same thing, and it was you that had to drag me by the scruff of my collar to "drink the Kool-aid" and understand that one needn't use the common terminal(s) for the output at all times. Remember when you had to rake me over the coals because of my obstinance over dajo's 4-way Tele switch: ash kicks sumgai's butt.....Remember that wolf doesn't like "fiddley" switches (more than two positions), but in all of his work on his site, he does the exact same thing as we're doing here - selecting desired coils by shunting undesired coils - and we've never castigated him for doing that, have we? For a fact, it's hitting 95° every day here, so my brain is blotto. If I'm being dense here, please - tell me how! sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 9, 2010 13:01:19 GMT -5
Ah heck! 1) Going back to that thing w/the 3-wire pickups. The schematic I'm looking at specifically shows that 2 of the wires from each pickup are permanently connected. If these are 3-wire HBs, then they're split in every position. I refuse to analyze the switching for this case because I believe it's false. 2) If we're not going to play fair then I'm going to take my ball and go home! We're trying to analyze a specific schematic, it's just plain not cool to go and change it to something completely different in order to prove your "point". I'm looking at this: Which does this in the middle position: The coils are "stacked" differently for each of the HB pairs. I do have to apologize, though. There's no shunting going on here. The top coils are hanging from hot.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 9, 2010 13:24:51 GMT -5
BTW - I spent almost half my life south of the "frost line" in Tampa, NOLA, and even Belize. Duluth doesn't get hot.
The cold (and lack of sun) messes me up, though!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 9, 2010 20:56:22 GMT -5
ash, I sit corrected - I see the problem! Your first posted diagram is what I went on, and I think you've agreed that my "re-write" is in order. However, it is not a copy of the DiMarzio diagram, as I had thought up until now. My apologies. And that's two for you. I'm also getting tired of making assumptions, just as you are. Let's see what GEzzz wants to do next, before we go any further. sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 10, 2010 0:41:42 GMT -5
Phew! Now we're on the same page. In case our new friend is still paying attention, let's recap.
The DiMarzio diagram does not give series in the middle position no matter which switch you use.
You can get series in the middle with either switch, if you want.
There are all kinds of other things you can do with 4 coils. Wolf's SuperSeven has been implemented by several folks around here and all I've heard is good things about it.
We are all very eager to help with whatever you choose.
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Post by greeneyezzz on Jul 10, 2010 16:42:45 GMT -5
Thank you guys!!!
In mid position I want to have the lower coil of the neck pick in series with the upper coil from the bridge. To keep logic flowing I would assume first going through the neck singlecoil then through the bridge singlecoil in reverse (as you would do with any humbucker).
The pickups have got 4 wires. White-Green is one coil and Black-Red the other coil.
The switch I use is pinned like this : 1 2 3 0 0 1 2 3
I use no tone pot.
I wonder, when you short circuit a coil (like in sumgai's schemas), doesnt it affect the impedance of the circuit and if it does, would that have an effect on tone? Isn't it "better" to have the unused coils "hanging" unconnected to anything?
Thanks again you guys!
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Post by JohnH on Jul 10, 2010 17:36:59 GMT -5
How about these? - with a Teleswitch, or a 4pdt on/on/on: (drawn schematically - to best understand how they work) In the 4pdt diagram, the upper two poles stay as they are shown in the middle position, while the lower one switches over to change the lower coil. There's no coil shunting, and no hanging from hot, although one coil hangs from the 'mid' position, in the Tele diagram. This should be better than hanging from hot in terms of slight noise pickup. If your Hbs are covered, then it wouldnt matter much either way. The 4pdt avoids all hangs and is therefore slightly purer electrically, but I think a Tele switch would be much easier to control, with its larger knob and longer travel. BTW, although not done in my suggestions, shunting coils is OK, in our current opinion, with insignificant affect on tone. I still prefer to get as short a signal path as possible though, with as little as possible hanging off it, except from ground. John
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 10, 2010 21:42:44 GMT -5
I wonder, when you short circuit a coil (like in sumgai's schemas), doesnt it affect the impedance of the circuit and if it does, would that have an effect on tone? Isn't it "better" to have the unused coils "hanging" unconnected to anything? We've recently had some discussion on this. I think most of us agree that -while we'd rather not do either - the possible noise issue from a hanging coil outweighs the small amount of impact a shorted coil would have. The impedance is (theoretically) the same either way. I find myself wondering why an coil hanging from hot wouldn't have at least some hum-cancelling with its partner. That is, if the noise is cancelled when both ends are connected, why wouldn't it be cancelled when it's only one end? Doesn't the "Right Hand Rule" still apply? I like John's idea better than mine! There is still a hanging coil there in the Tele version, though.
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