2 pups: N, N*B, B on a toggle?

[JFrankParnell]

having a hard time trying to figure out how to wire 2 pups (this guitar is 2 hb's, but this could be for Tele, also).

Trying to use a toggle to give me the usual 3 positions, but the middle would be series instead of paralell.
So:
Neck
Neck * Bridge
Bridge
is what I'm looking for. The other controls will be master V, master T.

[ijustwannastrat]

What type of 3 way are we using? Tele type? LP? DPDT toggle?

I would assume the later laterest. The way I understand series wiring, you simply shunt out the puppy you don't want to hear.


Enter, people who know stuff about wiring.




Sorry for the complete lack of help?





EDIT: I've spent about 20 minutes looking at a DPDT on/on/on switch right now, and I'm stumped. If I had more time I would look at an on/off/on switch, thinking that you turn the shunt on, rather than the puppy, but I have a gig to get ready for.

I hope the best for you, though!

[JohnH]

You are on the right lines ijws!

The basic version is you hard-wire the pickups in series, and shunt one coil to switch it off, with neither shunted in the middle position to get both in series.

Suitable switches are one or two pole mini-toggles on-off-on. Also, a two pole on-on-on can be used to work as a one pole on-off-on.

a Teleswitch is probably the best proper size switch to use - just one half of it

A Gibson toggle is no good for this series wiring.

The above arrangement can be improved however, depending on your set-up. So, before concluding, need to know more about the pickups. Are they 4 conductor plus braid, or single central core plus braid? or other? Are they covered or uncovered?.

The reason for asking is that, using a Tele switch, if you have 4 conductors plus braid, the wiring can be done in a way that may be a tad quieter, avoiding a bypassed coil on the hot side.

If you only have single conductor plus braid, and covered pickups, one of the covers will be ungrounded and pick up noise.

So - a bit more info please.

John

[JFrankParnell]

yep, i hadda feelin there was going to be some shuntin goin on. Lemme try again with that in mind.

I'll hafta get back on the specifics for the pups, this aint my guitar.

[sumgai]

uhhhhh... jfrank, aren't you supposed to be somewhere exotic and romantic about now?   As in, somewhere without the innerwebs......

Does she know you're "working", and not giving her your fullest undivided attention?   That's a recipe for disaster right there, pardner!


sumgai

[JFrankParnell]

haha, no we're back.

[ijustwannastrat]

So what type of switch are you planning on using?

[JFrankParnell]

well... the one that gets it done cant be a blade switch, this is a no pickguard git. so just a toggle. dpdt or 4pdt.

I give up, I cant see how to wire this. I'll try and get the wiring for these pups, but I'm reasonably sure they are 4 wire seymours.

[ashcatlt]

Kinda like this.

Put the pickups in place of the caps. The wire going to the pot will go directly to ground instead.

This could be an SPDT center off or one side of a DPDT On-Off-On, or (as JohnH said above) we can change it just a bit to shoehorn it onto a DPDT On-On-On. Hope it at least helps you to visualize.

[JFrankParnell]

so this:

If thats right, i still need to stare at it for a while

[ashcatlt]

That's what I was shooting for. Remember that it's an On-Off-On, meaning that the center terminal only ever connects to one of the other lugs at a time, and to neither in the center position.

[newey]

If thats right, i still need to stare at it for a while

Wolf's site has an explanation for this wiring which helped me understand it. In the center position, the front - and Bridge + are connected together to make a series HB, as they normally would be, and the line to the switch isn't connected in the center- so you get the full HB.

With the switch to one side, one of the coils connects to both hot and ground- and thus is "on", while the other is grounded at both ends and therefore shunted. With the switch the other way, same thing happens with the opposite coils.

[ashcatlt]

Nope. That's just gonna confuse people.

To turn off the "bottom" pickup, we send the "series connection" to ground. This connects the top of the "bottom" pickup to it's own bottom and the bottom of the "top" pickup to ground.

Since the top of the "top" pickup is permanently connected to the hot output, shorting it to ground causes silence. To turn off that "top" pickup, we send the "series connection" to the hot output. This connects both ends of the "top" pup, and connects the top of the bottom pup to the hot output.

[JFrankParnell]

well, for me, I can trace my way thru it, and realize now that the switch connects the + and - of a pup, which renders it useless, but the other pup still sees its way to hot and ground. cool, thanks

[ashcatlt]

Yeah, what he said!

[newey]

Ash's explanation was better than mine, but this is a visual thing- tracing it out is the best way to understand it.

[wolf]

Well, since my name has been mentioned, I guess I'll step in here and offer my drawing of the proposed circuit.



I can see 2 problems with this circuit especially if you are using those epoxy-filled, chrome-covered, sealed for eternity humbuckers.
Notice that the bridge pickup presents a problem because it has to be wired "inside-out" for the circuit to work. Should any of the guitar strings touch the pickup's chrome cover, a dead short will occur because a guitar "kill switch" has been unintentionally created.

Also, touching the chrome cover will produce a serious amount of hum from the amplifier. Now, if the humbuckers are 2 wires with a shield, then things will be all right. (And it would even be better if they were four wire humbuckers.)

[1hit1der]

A SPDT on-off-on is the cheapest, easiest way to do this, but it requires that any unused pickup is shunted. And one of the pickups (when shunted) will remain connected to the hot even though it is bypassed. This adds a tiny bit of hum.

If you want to avoid these issues and are willing to invest a bit more in a switch, you could use a DPDT on-on-on. However, you will not be able to have the 'both' position in the middle. So you could have:

Both
Neck
Bridge

or

Neck
Bridge
Both






You easily create a circuit to have the 'both' in the middle position, if you use a Telecaster blade switch or a Dimarzio 4PDT pickup selector (or a 4PDT on-on-on mini-toggle).

There are lots of different ways to approach this, depending on how much effort you want to invest in design and cash for the switch.

Using two standard DPDT on-on minitoggles (or push-pull pots) you could have four tonal choices: Neck, Bridge, Both in parallel, Both in series.

Lots of possibilities...

[newey]

1hit-

Hello and Welcome!

And one of the pickups (when shunted) will remain connected to the hot even though it is bypassed. This adds a tiny bit of hum.

I suspect this statement will be the subject of some debate . . . This is not a "hanging from hot" situation.

But overall, you're right, there are several ways to do this. An excellent first post.

[JFrankParnell]

Ok, the skinny on the pups is, both full size HB,
SD (pretty sure this is a 59ish PAFish)
IJR27
sh1b 0066
braid and wire

SD
"invader"
4 wire

[newey]

Frank-

The '59 PAF with just the braid and wire will raise the problems wolf cited above if it is in the bridge position (with reference to wolf's diagram). If the 4-wire Invader is at the bridge, you should be OK, you can just use wolf's diagram.

If the '59 is at the bridge, you'll want to invert wolf's diagram (flip it vertically, exchanging the pickup locations), so that the ground (shield) of the PAF is always wired to the output ground.

[JFrankParnell]

Okay, yeah the 59paf is going in the neck, invader at bridge. So, wolf's diagram is correct for these pups?

Haha, since this is my buddy's guitar, and this is a Flying V, really, its going to spend most of its life on the bridge, driving a chugging Mesa. He wont go for a bunch of switches, but i think i can get him to try N*B, then maybe a pull-push for paralell and a pull push for 'solo' 'blower'.