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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 28, 2010 13:17:52 GMT -5
So, I really love the change from A to Am at the end of the chorus in the Pixies' Where is My Mind (maybe you remember the song from Fight Club) E C#m Ab A Where is my mind? Where is my mind? Where is my mind?
E Ab A Am C#m B Way out in the water, see it swimming. www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/p/pixies/where_is_my_mind_crd.htmSeems like there's a Pink Floyd song that does this too? Anyway, that's just a beautiful change, eh? --EDIT: Thanks to haydukej, we have an index for this thread, which I will attempt to keep up: Page 1: Pixies – Wave of Mutilation Cry Me A River Pink Floyd – Us and Them SuperSuckers – Hang Gliders Queen – It’s Late Santo & Johnny – Sleepwalk SuperSuckers – Dirt Roads, Dead Ends, and Dust Dust – How Many Horses Eric Clapton – Forever Man Jeff Beck – Too Much To Lose Paul McCartney – Live and Let Die Page 2: Karen – So Danco Samba CeeLo Green – F You Damned – Grimly Fiendish Frank Black – Sunday Sunny Mill Valley Groove Day Uriah Heep – Circle of Hands Tenacious D – The Government Totally Sucks Jesus Christ Superstar – Pilates Dream Beatles – I’ll Be Back Page 3: Radiohead – Creep Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes – If You Don’t Know Me By Now Pink Floyd – Nobody Home Police – Every little thing Brian Setzer – The Hennepin Avenue Bridge The Specials – Hypocrite The Bottle Rockets – Last Time Korgis – Everybody’s Gotta Learn Sometime Radiohead – Nobody Does it Better Page 4: JFP’s Friend Nathan – The Electric Lawnmower Song Beatles – Blackbird Yardbirds – For Your Love Compulsive Gamblers – Walking the Balustrade Flaming Lips – It’s Summertime Leonard Cohen – Never Any Good Loudon Wainwright III – I’d Rather Be Lonely Amanda Palmer & The Grand Theft Orchestra – Berlin Police – Bring on The Night Ike Turner – I Love The Man F**k - Tether Zooey Deschanuel – What Are You Doing New Years Eve? Supersuckers – Everywhere I Go Bob Dylan – Simple Twist of Fate Page 5: David Bowie – Life on Mars Ramones – Baby I Love You Jonathan Richman and The Modern Lovers – Party in the Woods Tonight David Bowie – Space Oddity Wilco – Someday Soon Me First & The Gimme Gimme’s – Mona Lisa Peter Ubu - Surfer Girl Funkadelic – Soul Mate Arthur Alexander – Anna Elton John – Your Song Page 6: Rev Horton Heat – Aw, The Humanity New York Dolls – Plenty of Music The Kinks – Afternoon Tea David Bowie – Man Who Sold the World Supersuckers –Wake Me When It’s Over 10cc - I’m Not In Love Toni Fisher – The Big Hurt REO Speedwagon – I Can’t Fight This Feeling Anymore Velvet Underground – After Hours Lou Reed – Trade In Lou Reed – NYC Man/ Hooky Wooky Lou Reed – Riptide Lou Reed – Modern Dance New York Dolls – Better Than Alex Chilton – Ice Cream Progression Alice Cooper - Al Ma Mater Page 7: Herman’s Hermits – No Milk Today Drive-by Truckers / Jason Isbell & The 400 Unit – gawddamn Lonely Love Frank Black & The Catholics – Smoke Up Diana Krall – Simple Twist of Fate Dean Martin - Baby It’s Cold Outside Beatles – In My Life Beatles – If I Fell Frank Sinatra – My Way Eagles – Desperado Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes – If You Don’t Know Me By Now The Lonely Island – Great Day Lou Reed – Going Down Built to Spill – Twin Falls Jellyfish – Glutton of Sympathy Page 8: Girl From Impanema - Antonio Carlos Jobim Please Come Home For Christmas - Charles Brown,Gene Redd (by the Eagles) Pink Floyd - San Tropez Traffic - Low Spark Of High Heeled Boys Scoundrels - Arrogance Blues Joni Mitchell - Rainy Night House Lipbone Redding - The Land of Drunk and Stoned Alabama Shakes - I Found You Harold Arlen/E.Y. Harburg - Somewhere Over the Rainbow Neil Young - The Losing End (When You're On) Mope Grooves - Don't Sleep In Your Jeans Page 9: Ella Fitzgerald - Dream A Little Dream Of Me Lowell George - Twenty Million Things Ella Fitzgerald - Misty Lovin' Spoonful - Summer In The City The Microphones - I Felt My Size Elvis Costello - So Like Candy James Shelton - Lilac Wine (Jeff Buckley) Beatles - Fool on the Hill Ween - Push th' Little Daisies Buzzcocks - Everybody's Happy Nowadays Steve Miller Band - Fly Like An Eagle Rickie Lee Jones - Easy Money Walter Mitty and His Makeshift Orchestra - Fine Thanks The Ramones - Merry Christmas (I Don't Want to Fight Tonight) Oasis - Dont' Look Back In Anger
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Jul 28, 2010 15:35:43 GMT -5
It does sound Floyd-ish to me. A very pretty chord progression. Nice find.
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Post by 4real on Jul 30, 2010 19:28:25 GMT -5
Not familiar with that song, but it's a beautiful change...
I've been playing "cry me a river" which is in Am (or C) but you can hear this kind of thing in the hook...
so you can cry me a river, cry me a river ..................A7...................Am7............... like I, cried a river, over you .....D7............G7..............C.........Eaug...
But...in songwriting/composition this kind of thing actually has a "name"...
Subdominant Minor
and can be used in some lovely ways...
for instance, the eagles "desperado" you will recognize it perhaps...
Desperado, why don't you come to your senses ...........G.....G7.....................C...................Cm(6)....
or in the old james bond song in G (yes I know it's cringing, but)....
Nobody does it better, makes me feel sad for the rest C...........Cm.......G..........C.....................Cm..............G....
It has a particular "plaintive" kind of sound to it and can be very effective. It puts a "emotional spin" musically on things or reflective in the lyrics.
It creates an chromatic line from the G7's F note F,E,Eb,D in the first example and similar E,Eb,D int he last. In the 007 example its worht noting not only does if hit the word "sad" nicely, the chromatic line is a version of the kind of thing found in the original james bond theme...the old Em-Em#5-Em6-Em#5 vamp that the theme goes over.
This Pixie song (though not familiar with it) seems to have a similar chromatic line from the Bb chords D,C#,C,B. You find similar chromatic harmony elaboration in songs like the beatles "something" or even 'stairway to heaven' or jazz standards like 'summertime'. "time in a bottle" is another example that comes to mind of these kinds of internal chromatic lines
But yes, a beautiful effect...In the book I have been reading lately "writing music for hit songs"...it describes the use of the subdominant minor in these ways as "poignant" "wistful" "nostalgic" "emotional" and "bittersweet" and particularly useful for "prosody", reflecting something of the song in the music that is in the lyrics or implying something more than is said on another level.
So, as above with the "sad" word and reflects that the maj to min IV chord change in reflects more about the "quality of life of this 'desperado' as do the lyrics" further in the song.
They mention a few other songs, Bread's "If" and madonna's "take a bow"
The author also notes that while it is always an "emotional" or "poignant" change, it isn't necessarily "sad". 7th measure of "that's what friends are for" and the kenny rogers song, "she believes in me "while she waits...while she waits for me"...so a touching kind of reflective kind of thing.
Pink floyd...hmmm..."us and Them" comes to mind...
Us....and them........ Dsus2.....Esus2/D........Dm(maj7)....
And after all were only ordinary men .....................................G/D...............
Again, reflective on the first part of the second lines and mirrored in this kind of major to minor change...a little different application here as it is on the tonic chord, a bit like cry me a river in that respect perhaps....
Cry me a river is a fascinating song on many levels and I love that kind of change there...it has so many kinds of implications every time it comes around.
The song is minor and sad or reflective in a way at the start of the verse moving to the relative major and then on to this kind of change bringing about an almost 'evil' intent of revenge...
Now you say you're lonely, You cry the long night through
You can cry me a river, cry me a river, like I cried a river over you.
It really pushes these words home in different ways, first that its too bad that he lonely and crying, then the feeling that she's over it and glad, then a reflective glance at how hurtful she felt with that minor change, then a forceful ii-V-I into the relative major key just to shove home how glad she is that he's suffering too!
There's a real 'science' to great songwriting music...looks like you found another example
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 1, 2010 21:36:00 GMT -5
Dude, nice post, I exalt you!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 16, 2010 11:00:08 GMT -5
Found another one: Hang Gliders by the SuperSuckers. The instrumental version (part of it) is here: www.pandora.com/music/album/supersuckers/mustve+been+highIf you can find the version with lyrics, the maj-min change goes with the lyrics: "If SubPop made hanggliders, they'd be fallin to the ground. Like wet (C)bags of (Cmin) cement"
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Aug 16, 2010 12:13:30 GMT -5
Holy 7 chord, batman!
Ha, still has nothing on Sgt Pepper....
I was going to post some chords, but I forgot the progression.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 2, 2010 10:34:43 GMT -5
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Post by 4real on Dec 15, 2010 18:09:42 GMT -5
So...I got my TV reception back...and as a result, I am playing more guitar as it is so boring and lots of ads... And been doing a bit of "composing" and having the strat back and this view out the window in the evening... So...one thinks, plaintiff surf ballad when one lives on an island and the sun going down, a strat in hand and no thoughts of lyrics...so thought it might be of interest to go through a bit of the process of this and...as it happens is built on a 'twist' of this maj/min idea to create that 'plaintiff' sun going down into the sea kind of idea.... ... Ok... #1 so select a nice Major chord like...A major! #2 play with a melody that reinforces that this chord really is the tonic major chord...in this case the melody alternates between e and f# (5th to maj 6th) for two bars... #3 ok, time for a chord change...so how about something unexpected...Fmaj7 right...so why A to Fmaj7...cause it sounds interesting and has this maj/min effect. Fmaj7 includes the Am triad ACE with the F from the minor tonic (Am) or it is also the relative maj of Dm (maybe even Dm9 without the root)..certaily a contrast with the F# in the first couple of bars. The effect is very similar though to say A to Dmaj to Dmin to A...that subdominant minor...)as we discussed above in songs like 'desperado' and others... #4 make a melody that fits...run down the natural minor scale from a common tone...in this case A (can't get more common)...a,g,f,e...maj/min thing...notice that I avoided any "c's" so not suggesting maj or minor A and targeting the e note that starts the melody...reduce it down and you get a lot of e's common to both A and Fmaj7... #5 return to Amaj Ok...now you have to wonder what "next"...well we have introduced G so lets slip into a bit of Mixolydian which is a bit 'summer-y"...so G! #6 melody (d)e,d,b,a,g...you can double the open e and b strings and let them ring and pull off to an open g...cool move (think intro to hendrix "hey joe") and kind of Em...so again a different minor flavor in relation to A #7 bring back the A chord and reinforce that you are in A major in the melody e,a,b,d,c#,a #8 bring back the Fmaj7...common tones A and E #9 time for a V-I cadence to round it off...common tone E...but to give that "sleepwalk" sound...make it an augmented chord (#5) giving you C holding the Aminor tonality and another common tone with the Fmaj... #10 melody...e over the Fmaj7...e,d over the E#5,7...d wants to fall to c# and the c whats to rise up to c#...so this gives a strong pull back to A major without the 'finality' of a melody that ends on the tonic A (also possible, perhaps the last time round to give it some 'finality' or perhaps end on a 9th to leave the thing "hanging") Ok...so repeat and time for another section...same ideas... Lets have a sudden apparent key change to CMaj...the relative maj to Am...change to it's V chord g...I-V is always a strong move to establish a new key...but wait!... repeat move off of G...Bb to F... sets you up for that F-E7-A cadence...bVI-V7-I...may as well add the same jazzy/50's schmaltzy augmented thing again... This kind of thing is a bit of a jazzy back cycling thing...but without the complicated extensions...but there is a sense that it is working back to something.... Brings us back to Amajor (and a relief from that backcycling move)...so stringing that maj/min thing together A-C, G-Bb...minor thirds apart, major chord to what would be it's relative major if it were minor...if you are following these moves...and repeating the cadance at half speed...so the ear knows where it wants to go (as we hear that move before!) So the end result at least in a "chord chart"...give you... ||: A... | A... | Fmaj7... | A... | G... | G.... | A... | F..E+.. |
so an 8 bar form... | C... | C... | G... | G... | Bb... | Bb... | F... | E7+... |middle 8...same maj/min moves working back towards V7 over 8 bars... So to make it even more "interesting" you can add a few nice voices like A(add2) (x-0-7-6-0-0) that makes things a little more 'ambiguous' and floating while still being maj and having the e on top for the melody...Csus2 in the middle 8 for a similar effect... Add a few variations...play the melody first time in the middle register, second time in the lower strings an octave below, middle 8 then return to middle register...play a variation an octave higher above the 12th fret for a solo or after the middle 8 to repeat but take the tune "higher" (typical of the "shadows and most surf tunes)... Add some "surf-isms"...sliding double picked glissando down the low E...plenty of popping reverb with some palm muting to make it "pop" for added variety....some open strings for added jangle where you can...vibrato arm scoops and dips...a few "stop starts" in the middle 8 to give room for some drum rolls...maybe give the bass ago and have that give an answering phrase to the melody or counter melody...some open sting harmonics with vibrato arms to give a careening "sea bird" sound... ... Instant tune...10 minutes! Sounds pretty good and in style and a little classy while still being 'simple'. The other thing with this kind of 'instrumental music' and this genre...it's a bit like art criticism (that's pretty, but what does it mean?)...so you might want to give it an evocative title...remember the view that inspired it...something like... "When the sun goes down (I miss you more)"...LOL... But actually, there is that feel of the 'drama' of such a sunset into the sea and the romantic kind of plaintiff changes that this maj/min thing does so well (even without words)... ... Interesting if you wanted to break out of the traditional "genre" which is very melody based....it works well to build it up and even (gasp) solo over the progression. The maj/min thing is the perfect opportunity to use maj and minor modes or pentatonics and break out of a strict 'blues' kind of approach. This kind of music can be fairly formulaic...but the best of it actually does evoke something fairly strongly..."wipeout" may be simple but does evoke that board riding, relentless sea, ridding till you fall kind of thing...(again that bVI-V7 'spanish cadence' thing so common to this music...even on fast tunes) You "see" some similar things or get the "feel" from instrumental masters like santana with things like 'europa' or 'samb pa ti' or even a guy like 'satriani' who overtly tried to 'reinvent the genre' with 'surfing with the alien' and tunes like 'always with you..." ... I suppose I should mention "sleepwalk"...another very evocative tune that uses the same maj/min device to give it that 'dreamy effect'...and that aug+ V that has a similar effect and you hear all the time on those 50's tunes and early rockabilly and such... ||: C... | Am... | Fm... | (Ab7).Gaug | You have probably heard the more typical I-iv-IV-V progressions of so many songs like 'stand by me', or 'duke of earl', etc... and all through pop music.... In sleep walk the IV chord is unexpectedly "minor"...the IV chord (subdominant) being F in C and implies this sleepy chromatic line of A-Ab-G (subdominant minor) towards the V chord...making that "augmented" gives a kind of touch of minor tonic in a way also....very dreamy and schmaltzy... ... Anyway, a powerfully 'evocative "move" that sub dominant minor in a major key that gives a definite 'sense' of things even without lyrics to spell it out and adding some colour and melodic opportunities beyond those that the more 'normal progressions' might imply. If you wanted to take these ideas to the "next level' as a soloing strategy...it is possible to insert some "out" notes at points in the progression that give this dreamy feel...so on a IV chord if you play minor regardless there, it will produce a similar effect...or on a V chord, use a V#5 or the tonic minor over the V chord (Cm over G7) and you can manipulate the 'effect' melodically even if the song or the band don't want to 'play along...if you wanted that 'dreamy' 'plaintiff' sound. These kinds of things really make a difference in any genre between running about a 'scale' and really using everything available to 'say something'...or even compose a tune with a twist. ... On more thing comes to mind also...this tune has something of the feel of SRV's Lenny and that too contains some similar "moves". It is often remarked that he plays the solos in minor though the progression is a very major sounding E-A progression. But you can hear the way the solos in minor evoke some of this min-maj 'reflective' thing with the simplest of means and allows for all those blues moves he does so well Anyway...hope those that can follow this can hear some of these effects and a bit of the 'process' of writing an 'evocative' tune....pete
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 15, 2010 21:45:15 GMT -5
you know what would be awesome is a video of you talking all this out and strumming along to demonstrate
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Post by 4real on Dec 15, 2010 23:49:47 GMT -5
Maybe one day...if i didn't have to pedal this computer to make it go...no video equipment...
However, strum that chord sequence and you will hear the effect...
This is just one "effect" of course, that maj/min thing...throw tritones instead and you got instant metal effect!
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Post by sumgai on Dec 16, 2010 3:15:56 GMT -5
....
I suppose I should mention "sleepwalk"...another very evocative tune that uses the same maj/min device to give it that 'dreamy effect'...and that aug+ V that has a similar effect and you hear all the time on those 50's tunes and early rockabilly and such...
||: C... | Am... | Fm... | (Ab7).Gaug | From the original prime source of all else: It sure looks to me like Johnny's stretching his pinkie to make it G7..... (And here after all this time I've been playing a G6 - my bad! ) HTH sumgai
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Post by 4real on Dec 16, 2010 6:41:19 GMT -5
You got me there SG...didn't know the S&J fans/camandos would get me... I used to play it with the V7+(b9) chord implied by the two guitars...cause I had to play santo's part too... It is a common sub on this tune coming out of that... It's in fact, together...G7b9 but johnny maybe just avoided that prominent Ab note in the melody over the V7 chord...hence many play an Ab7-G7.C cadence along with the slide guitar. I used to do an arrangement that had the melody in thirds and then on the repeat the melody with a counter melody...something like this ---8-------------------8------------------------------------------------------- ---5--8---6-8--9-----5--8--6-8-9--8--6-5------------------------------ -----~9---7-9-10------~9--7-5------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------9--8--6-5------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- But you are correct at least on that version...a b9 change which is a whole other kind of 'schmaltz'...it's not a bad example of playing the extensions or this kind of thing over the basic changes though...although J is playing the G7, santo is playing the melody that includes the harmony...but hey they were young, since then the tune have been done by many... You can hear that the +5 sound works too as a harmony to the melody or the 6th as you play.... ---4-3-1-3~---4-3-1-3~------------------ ---6-5-3-5~---6-4-3-5~-------------------- ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ Probably not what santo plays in the original but play that melody (on the high e) with the third harmony and you can hear the subtle difference between the natural 6th (e) in the third below and parallel min thirds (possibly only really possible with that slide...hmmm...) and how the eb (+5) resolves up to the e of C on the final note while the f (7th) resolves down to the same note... Perhaps then not on the original version but so common I ahd it in my mind clearly! The Aug chord is a fun one to play with...it produces that min-maj effect in the cadences and is a symmetrical stack of major thirds...so like the dim7th chord that repeats in inversion every min3rd....repeats every maj3rd in inversion. In short this means you can slide the same shape around and move about really quick...move in major thirds and you can get up to the next octave...which was one way I used to use it...or know that the symmetrical whole tone scale fits well and you can move the 'shape' every two frets to get an interesting effect or a sly key change 'up a tone' say from C to D... But whatever...the song is a classic and displays the noted maj-min thing beautifully...even without the Aug cadence Note the subdominant minor discussed in earlier posts (Fm) and in the middle 8 a kind of modulation with the C (tonic) becoming dominant (C7) to F...then Fm...ah yes, that's where I added the +5 thing to get back to C The b9 thing that santo is playing in the melody came up in the "cry me a river" discussed earlier...you get that 'plaintiff' b9 note alternating with the root on the words "me" and "riv"er contrasting with the predominant 'spiky' major 9th as on the first word "Now" (you say you love me) So...I'll concede that johnny isn't playing it, but santo is playing the Ab chord (which includes the +5 note Eb as it's fifth) in the melody and common harmonizing of the melody makes either sound fine...though santo is playing straight maj3rds along that slide by the sound of it... Interesting...hard to turn beck the clock...and tunes get a life of their own...I'm lucky I got the original key...I think i used to do it in D to do the intro melody in natural harmonics somehow...I should relearn it...if I had a decent computer I could run Guitar pro on it and tab things properly...doh!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 30, 2010 16:00:02 GMT -5
Supersuckers, one of my favorites: B E Em
bonus: watch him go from woman tone to trebly bridge at about 3:35
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Post by 4real on Dec 30, 2010 19:36:36 GMT -5
This thread just keeps happening JFP Not a bad song and band, perhaps not the self proclaimed "best band in the world"...I thought U2 claimed that years ago...and why stop there LOL...the beatles claimed to be bigger than jesus... Regardless, some nice licks there and good wha work...didn't catch the 'woman tone' thing...sounded like a what technique, you can get so much reble out of those things it's sometimes good to use the neck pickup to get a big range into the bass frequencies... Good song...remember it even out here...tuned down to Eb so ke of Bb on my guitar I see they had 'slacktones' dusty on drums for a while...mentioned in another thread about surf music... ... This Maj Min thing comes up a lot... Was learning a bit of Led Zeps "song remains the same' which does this a bit, very cool moves in that song...a lot of the Who's influence I suspect... And another kind of twist though not going 'out of key' is Issack's "wicked Game"...kind of in the minor dorian mode... Bm-A-E.... the E maj being the IV chord in Bm but in dorian a major rather than minor chord, always an effective and surprising kind of change there...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jan 14, 2011 14:14:23 GMT -5
Its so funny, I'm randomly going through songs and playing along, and I find this one
Dust - How Many Horses A ............................................... E How many horses - Do you think it takes? ....................... F#m ......................................D For you to go riding - Through in garden of snakes A (Bb) B ..........................................D .....Dm7 You’ll never make it - Oh no, but you wanna try, alone A....................................E ..............................A Can’t you see you’ll be nothing? - When I’m gone
This band and song are rare, but the drummer went on to become Marky Ramone. The first 4 chords are identical to Oh Darling (Beatles) and prolly a million other songs.
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Post by 4real on Jan 14, 2011 14:46:55 GMT -5
I love this thread...except i keep adding in minor sub-dominants everywhere when i write a tune!
That's an interesting twist...the B is the V of the E being V of the key of A...
But yet again, there's that D-Dm with the minor chord being on a reflective "alone"...
...
I was looking at the Clapton Song "forever man' for someone yesterday that goes Bb-C-Dm throughout (in Dmin) but once a verse he throws in a Gmaj (or big G power-chord 3-5-5-0-3-3) that seems to give it a lift in a kind of opposite affect...Gmaj being naturally minor in Dmin except in the dorian mode, but there being so many Bb's implied the B in the G chord seems to give it a kind of 'lift' or something.
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Post by 4real on Jan 14, 2011 17:52:26 GMT -5
It occurs to me that there is an interesting twist on this in the beatles "dear prudence"...
the chords are D cycling around D-D/C-D/B-D/Bb for the most part ending on C-G-D and generally including the sus2 on the D chords (open high e string)
The melody is interesting and one might consider this movement to imply G major (D/B) to G minor (D/Bb) being the sub-dominant as we have been discussing or IV chord of a progression.
Listen to the melody and you get this very effective F note in there on the words "and so are you" implying the minor tonic...and that's why even in a simple song like this they were masters!
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Post by 4real on Jan 18, 2011 2:43:54 GMT -5
Here's another interesting 'twist' to this idea that I came across today. I'm doing a bit of a solo arrangement of "wonderful Land" written by Jerry Lordan and made famous by "the shadows" and I think possibly their best if not most ambitious recording and a huge hit about the time I was born...LOL
It has a big almost classical scheme with an intro and several distinct sections taking you on something of a journey with lots of turns in harmony along the way.
The first thing to notice that it is really in C but starts each section in G and ends generally on Em (relative minor of Gmaj) with a simple kind of mixolydian melody...which are the notes of C major. Not all songs have to start and/or end on the root chord ("time after time is one that starts on the IV chord for instance) and is a very effective move.
Ok...so the major/minor thing. It's in C major so the IV chord is Fmajor...so we are looking for that 'reflective' F minor sound in this key.
The tune really does effectively express a journey or perhaps more taking in a huge view of a landscape and noting all the different features around (hence the name, though the composer called it "genesis' so, who knows what he was envisaging...plus he wrote it on a ukulele...so we could discount his vision LOL)...
Ok...so...
intro rocks back and forth between G and F...mixolydian (4 bars)
section A1 cycles about from G (G - D - F - C - C Am - F Dm - Bb - G) this sequence spends a bit of time in the home key of C in the middle but does this lovely maj/min move from Bb to Gmaj in the last two bars. This gives a king of "picardy third" effect (like ending a minor tune such as Greensleeves on an A major chord)...the effect is kind of uplifting or something...but here it is on the V chord (8 bars)
section B starts in the home key of C (C - Em - C - F - Dm - C - G - Dm - Fm - Em - Em - Em) but as you can see seems to run into Dm (ii in C and ends with three whole bars of Em! (12 bars)
And you can see in this section our "sub-dominant minor" Fm seemingly out of context but still having all the "power" we have noted in previous examples without the benefits of any kind of lyric...it almost implies that we are reflecting with a little sadness on the past as we look at this landscape.
You have the harmony going from Dm to Fm to Em all parallel minor chords and all unrelated other than Dm and Em being ii and iii of C major...yet still, even hidden in there, you really can hear it if you listen to the beautifully constructed tune.
In the tune...we get a repeat of A pretty much.
Then...2 C sections similar to B but with the harmony moving twice as fast and very much in C...even if as before we are ending on Em for 3 bars. there is a feeling perhaps of "progress" (9 bars long)
A bit of repeating on the Em and then finishing with the intro in G.
I noted the length of each section as another important compositional tool. You have a few of these maj/min things...you have sections starting and ending on related harmony but not the tonic or key centre...and you have sections of different but familiar lengths 8 bars, 12 bars...
And then there is that 9 bar section. This also contains another kind of Maj/min move. Remember that the tune starts in G though in the key of C and ends on an Em before repeating...so, by having 9 bars, you are kind of expecting there to be another to even it up...but what you get is a shift and the start of the tune again in the relative Major...but not the home key. This gives an 'uplift' as if you have rested for a bit on this 'journey', done some reflecting...then got up and started the journey again.
Tunes of unusual lengths are interesting like that...Hendrix's "little Wing" is another 'odd length' tune...9 bars as I recall (or is it ten) and these kinds of things give things a kind of restless momentum as if starting again before ever quite 'ending' if that makes sense.
I suspect a lot of the time people are not really thinking "I'll write an odd length tune" or start a tune in a different key...some people seem to have a very 'open imagination' perhaps and these amazing things just 'sound right' to them perhaps.
But on the other hand, one should not underestimate how much the great songwriters really knew about this kind of stuff and how to manipulate things to get the affects they were after.
A great biography about the life and process as well as some of these technical things is Jimmy Webb's bio "tunesmith" composer of songs like "MacArthur Park" and "By the time I get to Pheonix" and the like...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jan 18, 2011 12:32:23 GMT -5
youre right, that Fm does have that kinda sound.
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Post by 4real on Jan 25, 2011 0:39:34 GMT -5
Here's another one or more to add to the thread... Jeff Beck's " Too Much To Lose" from 'there and back'. I used to love this record and still has a soft spot for it even if the 1980's production values are a bit...over produced...this tune is by Jan Hammer, the 'elton john' of 'jazz rock' in that era (remember miami vice)...still... Some nice changes in there. Mixolydian which is cool...so major scale with a b7....chord changes G-Csus4-C- Cmin-G, again that sub-dominant minor IV chord and the chromatic line from the b7th F,E,Eb,D that marks this change...again that 'bitter-sweet' kind of feel to it and sets up a nice feel that allows a few blues notes and almost gospel feel to the basic tune. However, like a lot of stuff, the decent melody and writing got lost in the 80's synths and production values. I think it may have been an era when JB was experimenting with Jackson guitars and a kind of generic distortion and a bit of overdubing of guitars that loses his 'voice' somewhat...shame, but not as "bad" as the subsequent "flash album" where Nile Rogers tried to have him singing or pared with sub par vocalist...not withstanding the hit from it with Rod Stewart of "people get ready" recorded in his hotel room. Still if you see behind that...still that JB inventiveness and phrasing...plus the album has the beautiful "final peace" which is kind of cool (hmmm, something else to try and learn)... ... Anyway...seem to be finding these things everywhere these days and possibly always been attracted to the sentimentality of these kinds of changes. Recent discussions about the Aug-V chord also has something of this flavour and I'm working that in quite a bit lately...I wonder what the "opposite" effect might be, play the changes backwards?... G-Cm-C-G...actually it does kind of work in reverse...sounds a bit like tommy era "townsend/who" fanfare kind of things...what do you think? Try it in D with a townsend like pedal below it.... ---2--3--7--8--10---------------------------------------- ---3--3--8--8--10---------------------------------------- ---2--3--7--9--11---------------------------------------- ---0--0--0--0--0---------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- ...D-Gm-G-C-D or backwards and forwards... ---2--3--7--6--5---------------------------------------- ---3--3--8--8--7---------------------------------------- ---2--3--7--7--7---------------------------------------- ---0--0--0--0--0---------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- ...D-Gm-G-Gm-D or...make that idea 'bigger' add a 7th to the minor and you can see how it becomes more of a bVII chord...or Bb in the key of D ---2--3--7---6--5--3---3--1--2~~---2--3-3-3--2----------------------- ---3--3--8---6--7--5---3--3--3~~---3--3-3-3--3----------------------- ---2--3--7---7--7--5---4--3--2~~---2--2-2-2--2----------------------- ---0--0--0---0--0--0---0--0--0~~~-0--0-0-0--0------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- ...D,Gm,G...Bb,D,C...G,Bb,D..........D,Dsus4,D...PT windmill+RD scream! Interesting kind of affect...see how the sub-dominant minor Gm7 in Dmajor is virtually the same notes as Bb without the root (G) and can be kind of interchanged...and in this example it is kind of easy to see how the 'voice leading' could work and finds "home" without a hint of an A or V chord...and in Mixolydian without the aid of a C# leading tone. You get that strong descending line B,Bb,A into the last chord and an 'encircling' of the F# or root of the tonic chord (Dmaj) suspending it from a semitone above (G) and delaying the resolution by approaching it from a semitone below (F) and introducing the tonic minor third (F) into the mix...glued together with a constant shared D note throughout.The three chords prior has that same kind of thing in the top line B,Bb,A and the middle line G,F,F#. With these techniques you have the basis for an entire 'rock opera'...LOL...Townsend was a bit of a master of the pedal tone and using simple chords to create huge works And, can see that you can kind of get a "reverse" effect to the maj-min thing discussed in this thread if you put your mind to it...or both backwards and forwards! ... since we I'm on a compositional roll with this idea...you can separate the 'voices' and get something like this.... ---2-----------------------3-3---2--------------------- ---3-----------7-6-5-----3--3--3----------etc---------------- ---2--4-3-2--7------5---4--3--2--4-3-2-------------------------- ---0-----------0----------0--0--0------------------------ --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Now it has some of that James Bond "Live and let Die" kind of sound...I bet there's a minor sub-dominant in that song...as there are in others like... ... Live and let die... To my ears the changes over "You used to say that your heart, was an open book" are (in G) G-Bm-C-Cm-G Yes..and the lyric, "you know you did, you know you did, you know you did" falling on that Cm perfectly musically reflecting "looking back" in a bitter sweet way...and then to make it more 'violent' he ends that plaintiff D,E,Eb thing that characterizes this move by making the last D a big D7 chord (V7 of G) instead with the words..."give in and try" to an even more violent Eb7 chord "and live and let die" ... James Bond themesI got a thing for James Bond music...there is this ongoing thing between each movies theme music and they all tend to be great compositions that work as a song and different elements through the movies. The original had this moving upper line vamp I've noted before... --------------------------------------------------- ----0--1--2--1----------------------------------------- ----0--0--0--0----------------------------------------- ----2--2--2--2----------------------------------------- ----2--2--2--2----------------------------------------- ----0--0--0--0----------------------------------------- see how this two has a similar chromatic move as the sub-dominant thing and similar kind of affect...if it were Em-Am-A-Am for instance you'd have that C#,C,B thing happening where Am is the sub-dominant minor. I think I mentioned on the previous page the example of a much later "nobody does it better" being an example of this with the line "makes me feel sad for the rest" with he word sad falling on the sub-dominant. You have a very similar thing in "Live and Let die"...and all the themes in interesting ways...and then each theme has tended to use past elements and bring in something new, and subsequent themes build on that. In "live and Let Die" with that Eb you have a bit of "gold finger" G---Eb (trumpets: Ba,baah,bah) and so it goes...cant vouch for the lesser themes by A-Ha (living daylights) or Duran Duran (view to a kill) though both had John Barry, the original theme composer on board...U2 with Tina Turner didn't do too bad with "golden eye" and the tradition seems to live on in most of the themes and more recent ones have been pretty good... It's an interesting exercise to pinch some elements and this sub-dominant minor thing to create your own "bond theme" from elements and strategies from previous themes...there have been some heavy hitting composers and artists who have obviously got their heads around the ideas, and even more that failed! It's instructive to see those who have submitted themes and artist who have recorded proposed themes and 'failed"...Tom Jones won over Johnny cash and apparently Alice Cooper amongst many great artists missed out on other themes...yet Madonna and sheryl crow were successful (and I guess interesting). Anyway, if interested in 'trainspotting' changes and themes, you can't beat James Bond movies..it has even remarked as I recall that the theme music is in itself a character in the movies and integral to the plot... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bond_musicPerhaps someone could out do Jack White for the next one!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jan 25, 2011 0:47:24 GMT -5
that townsendish is cool.
Just came across another!
Intro: E7 A7 D6 So danco samba G7/D E7 So danco samba, vai, vai, vai, vai, vai Em7 So danco samba A7/E Dmaj7 So danco samba, vai
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Post by 4real on Jan 25, 2011 3:26:50 GMT -5
Hahahhaa...that's good...not quite familiar with the song... I see spanish and tried to make "Guantanamera" out of it... That's an interesting tune with a similar but different Harmonic effect...mainly it goes D-Em-A with Em substituting for the sub-dominant IV chord (G)...the ii chord of D major...the chorus goes to G which give it that lift G...Em...D-G-A...D-Em-A...D-G-A Interesting how it returns to the V chord and not the tonic D. So...not familiar with that particular song... Without hearing it, it is hard to know what the I chord is to determine the IV or iv chord might be...if the Em is the sub-dom-minor then the song would have to be in B...and I don't see that in there. If it's in D as the A7 implies and the verse's first chord...then like the above song...Em is the normal ii chord and the E7 is the odd one out...this would probably be treated as (V7 0f V) and comes up from time to time and all the time in classical music. something like C-A7-D7-G7 is a classic sequence for certain genres...you can see a chromatic movement in the top line if played like this... ------------------------ --5---8---7---6---5---------- --5---6---5---4---5---------- --5---5---7---3---5---------- --3---7---5---5---3----------- -------5-------3----------- and in the middle line encircling the tonic...a lot of jazz is really these kinds of sequences in this case I ((V7 of V7) of V7) I, especially the earlier tunes and in dixieland...but every so often you get it in a pop song, perhaps in the bridge..I'm trying to think of one... Hmmm...I know there are obvious examples that I cant think of right now...but "day tripper" came to mind of this kind of thing... tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/beatles/day_tripper_ver2_crd.htmStarts off as if a typical (12 bar) in E complete with guitar riff...then suddenly it moves to and sticks to an F#7 for quite a bit, then A,G#,C# to B. The B is clearly the V of the key of E where we started...so the other stuff has to be understood in this way... F#7 if V7 of V7 in E...ie F#7-B7. C# is the V of F#7 or the V of V of V...confused? The A is a b5 sub for D# the V of G#...the G# is a V of C# which is a V of F# which is the V of B which is the V of E or the tonic chord! This is called "back cycling" around the circle of fifths. It never ceases to amaze me how guys as young as Lennon and Mac had absorbed so much music even in these early songs, at such a young age and done it so successfully with all they had happening in their lives as well...touring, 2 albums a year, TV, girls, drink, drugs and the whole RnR lifestyle. Clearly they had absorbed so much music, especially from the era of their parents (vaudeville, etc) and perhaps just inherently able to apply these kinds of things into any mortal soul would have treated as a I-IV-V progression. But a digression form the maj-min thing of this fascinating thread! ... After musing on the James Bond Themes, I recalled I wrote one (well a spy theme) more than 20 years ago and "so good" I can still remember it, kind of...in fact there is a full on recording of it on cassette somewhere...hmmm....someone had lent me a moog synth as I recall for the 'solo' section...LOL If I can locate it, I will try and put it onto the computer so you can hear it...in fact I should try and save a bunch of stuff stored in boxes around the place...there's some of me playing some jazz with my black LP in 'rock mode'...very young though! Anyway...thought i'd attempt to remember it and see if I'd subconsciously used these 'themes' without knowing the 'theory' I obviously know now...and in particular this maj-min move and sure enough...yet another related sequence... In G... G-Eb-C-Daugb9 ------------------------------------- --3--4--5--4----------------------------- --4--3--5--3----------------------------- --5--5--5--4----------------------------- --5--6--3--5----------------------------- --3----------------------------------- hmmm...well perhaps there I was influenced by the above, I don't really remember the exact harmony and the original was in F#minor so, the first chord couldn't be major...but that is an interesting sequence...see how you have the classic "bond" move in the top voice of those chords, the first two chords the classic goldfinger change and the first three chords straight majors...the last chord a classic bond like augmented sound. The major third in the inner voice is moving back and forth between major and minor with each change....ah...but with hindsight... What I do remember is the Theme I wrote...hard to ASCII it out...but suitably spy like... ---------------------------|------------------------|--------- ---------------------------|-------------------4-3-|------------ ---------------------------|--------3----2-3-------|------------- ----------------------5---|-----------5------------|------------ ----------5-3--6-5----5-|-6--66-----------------|--------------- --3--33------------------|-------------------------|------------- Gm...............Eb/Bb.......D7#9/A....Ab7....... Ok...coming back to me...it had this classic ominous bass line (think LZ "dazed and confused" as a similar example) G,Bb,A,Ab...again a classic chromatic move... so therefore the harmony would be something along the lines of... ------------------------------------------------------------ ---3---4---6---4------------------------------------------------ ---3---3---5---5------------------------------------------------ ---5---5---4---4------------------------------------------------ ---x---x---x----x----------------------------------------------- ---3---6---5---4------------------------------------------------ Gm--Eb/Bb--D7#9/A--Ab7 Ha...suitably spy-ish if not exactly James bond...maybe some third rate TV knock off cult classic...or something 'mysterious' from the sixties...or a new "surf song" of the spy genre perhaps! See if I knew more 'theory' then perhaps I'd have stuck a C chord in there...LOL...but again, there is that G-Eb move as per goldfinger/live and let die and the chromatic thing in the bass and some weird melody notes against the harmony. And, I was getting into 'inversions' at the time...you can see that D7#9/A is just the hendrix chord with it's fifth in the bass and the Ab7 is a jazzy bV substitution. ... One of the things about 'composing' as a guitar player, we tend to treat chords as 'blocks of sounds' while a traditional or trained composer or a piano player even, sees things as kind of moving voices. Often, if the ear is good, you get to some similar things and there is a lot to be said for simpler songs. But a lot of these kinds of effects have come about from more voice leading composing and perhaps infiltrated by osmosis. You can see in the great writers like Lennon and Mac or even a townsend in his own way, and certainly 'classic song writers' and 'professionals'...voice leading kinds of things do play an important role and these guys certainly had developed some 'song writing chops' one way or another.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jan 25, 2011 11:33:21 GMT -5
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Post by 4real on Jan 25, 2011 18:20:08 GMT -5
I can never get over how authentic and good some of these japanese players are...the harmonica player was great...the piano players hat made him look pixelated...
...
And a bit much to "analyze" a jazz samba at 7:30am in the morning...but there are a lot of interesting sounds in there if you listen carefully....and some stuff to steal...hmmm
That link seems to be very much what they are playing. Lots of those 6/9 kinds of sounds...my minds a bit slow to remember a tune that ends on it, but it was kind of common...play this G6/9 for instance x-10-9-9-10-10...pretty sure there's a beatles song that ends on this kind of chord sound...and lots of others.
There were kind of 'eras' when such sounds were popular...occasionally they come back...remember the 'vamp' in "At 17" that had this kind of thing in it...
----------------------------------- ---5--5-5--5-5-------------------------- ---5--4-4--2-2-------------------------- ---5--5-5--2-2-------------------------- ---3--3-3--3-3-------------------------- -----------------------------------
"jazz" comping players never like to stay put and include such moves to insert a moving line in the voices...again this voice leading idea...and this is a similar 'sound' heard in this tune.
The interesting thing that is kind of unusual to play (though perhaps typical for this genre) is the liberal use of those + or augmented chords (see the discussion on whole tone and augmented chords recently) that give things something of a floating feel and a 'strange' dissonance.
A lot of these Augmented sounds create the voiceleading that major-minor effect discussed in this thread. The "powerful" sound in a voice leading sense that creates the affect is that chromatic line where the major IV turns into a minor third...so you get this line from the major third, minor third and resolving back to the fifth of the I chord...for instance in A-D-Dm-A the notes are F#,F,E where F is that minor third plaintiff thing. You could use such knowledge to create the effect melodically and is a part of the effect that we use and are used to in the minor third in blues...that "blue" note effect.
In an augmented chord, such as A+ you are making the fifth sharp which again is that F note against the chord...and there is heaps of this kind of thing in these voicing and sound.
These things can be tricky to analyze down when you are out of practice as there are a lot of substitutions disguising things and alterations. Some are local modulations which have a similar kind of effect and are all over the Jazz 'standards' of songs such as "how high the moon" and the like.
For instance...in the simplified version...
Intro: E7 A7 D6 So danco samba G7/D E7 So danco samba, vai, vai, vai, vai, vai Em7 So danco samba A7/E Dmaj7 So danco samba, vai
some voicings for that... ---------------------------------------- --5--5---7-3-5--5-5-7------------- --7--6---4-4-7--7-6-6------------- --6--5---4-3-6--5-5-7-------------- --7--7---5-5-7--7-7-5-------------- ---------------------------------------- E7-A7/E--D6-G7/D-E7-Em7--A7/E-Dmaj7
see how the voices move chromatically along the different strings.
The major minor thing you are hearing is where the E7 turns into an Em7. It's kind of a 'local modulation' related to this back cycling idea...similar and stet up in the intro.
The E7 is V of V (A7) which is V of I...being D major.
So when you get that E7 or II7 chord again...it should be Emin7 in the key of D major...by changing it to E minor it is signaling the return to the D major tonality.
A lot of it is working the chromatic voice leading in close harmonies (think of the beach boys vocal sound or barber shop quartets). The addition of things like Augmented chords exaggerates it even more.
So...
---------------------------------------- --5--6---7-6-5--5----5---8---7---------- --7--6---4-4-7--7----6---6---6---------- --6--5---4-6-6--5----5---8---7----------- --7--7---5-5-7--x----x---7-6-5------------ -------------------7-6-5---------------- E7-A7+/E--D6-G7b9/D-E7-Em7/B,(Bb)--A7,(A7b9/E)(Eb)-Dmaj7
With some of these "samba approved" augmented chords and 9ths you can see how the voices are moving (see on the b string for example it is moving in steps)...towards the end I've included a bit of the kind of bass movement with the same kind of chromatic passing tones between roots. This kind of falling steps are a motive of this kind of voice leading, altering chords take out the steps and make it a smoother thing where the chords kind of gently fade into one another. Maj7 and 6/9 chords give that 'never quite resolved' sound.
In reality these things can be tricky and the notation of such chords 'confusing'...chord symbols are always up for some debate and it's far trickier on the guitar to appreciate and use these kinds of close voice leading techniques. In fact often chord symbols obscure whats going on and make fairly simple chords and shapes more complicated than it needs be...in my 'voiceleading' in the last example, the A7b9/Eb is simply a bog standard Eb7 chord....but if you play Eb7-Dmaj7 it sounds like a clear V-I cadance...A7-D.
The use of the brighter natural 9ths in the less easy chords adds an interesting...using 'static roots' is interesting too...so there are voices moving around notes that remain the same...this for instance is kind of neat...
---------------------------------------- ---7---6---5---5---6---8---7------------------- ---4---4---7---7---6---6---6------------------- ---4---7---6---5---5---8---7------------------- ---5---5---5---5---5---5---5------------------- ---------------------------------------- D6--G9--E7--Em7--A7+--A7b9--Dmaj7 all with over a /D bass!!!
This shows a bit more of the flavour of sounds and voices in this style using 9ths and augmented sounds to get this kind of chromatic movement...I particularly like the sound of that second chord voicing.
Lucky I studied those Mickey Baker Books when I was younger...LOL!
In reality, I suspect that rather than thinking in terms of blocks of chords, the idea is more about the voice leading. On guitar, things can often "jump around, but the sound and composers intention is still about this kind of thing.
....
The short answer is that there is that Major going to minor in that E7 to Em7 but it kind of feels a bit different...it's very subtle.
In this tune in D, E7 is the "out of key" chord (it is the V7 of A which is the V7 of D), the minor chord is returning to the home key (the ii chord).
In the sub-dominant minor thing we have been discussing, that chord in D would be G minor. The sub-dominant minor is the 'out of key chord'...but the effect is similar and subtle.
In the end it is kind of about melodic voices. You can think of melodies as having a kind of "gravity" within a key, especially chromatic harmony. So, in the key of D major, that subdominant minor "note" Bb wants to resolve down to the A...there is a 'pull' there. Much like in D, the sus4 wants to fall to the F# or third it replaces...in the sub dominant minor chord you ahve both the D and Bb wanting to fall. You could think of it as a kind of 'double suspension'...in that townsend kind of thing for instance you could make a good cadence of it...a resolution to the tonic chord...
----2--3--2-------------------------------- ----3--3--3-------------------------------- ----2--3--2-------------------------------- ----0--0--0-------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------
And it has that kind of melancholy effect.
Playing with it, you can see the reatonship between the two if you were to use the II7 chord and replace the V7 with this resolution...so in D, D-E7-Gm-D...see how close the E7 is to a G or IV chord in the second example of D-G-Gm-D...so YES...they are very similar in effect and in fact notes...just a bit more chromatic out of key notes with the first example as it appears in the Samba.
----2--4--3--2---------2--3--3--2----------------------- ----3--3--3--3---------3--3--3--3----------------------- ----2--4--3--2---------2--4--3--2----------------------- ----0--0--0--0---------0--0--0--0--------------------- ---------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------
...
Anyway...got my mind thinking first thing in the morning. I tend not to play this kind of thing. For all the beauty and complexity of such music, it is a lot of work and sounds a bit dated or something to modern ears.
There is still a lot to be learned from it and apply the principles in new ways...this is kind of important for a guitar player to think of it in this more theoretical abstract way as the instrument isn't layed out like a piano...on that instrument or on paper, the chromatic connecting of notes seem obvious and you don't really worry about what a chord is called, just where each voice is going or staying to produce that sound. These kids of things, even if in moderation, is what one needs a bit of to make something clever and different....like the beatles day tripper example that takes these simple principles and apply it to what could have been a 12 bar, and take it somewhere else but still sound somehow familiar or "make sense".
...
There is some merit to the adage (U2?): "All you need is three chords and the truth"...it is an attractive idea. But if all you have is the same 12 bar blues I-IV-V progression and the thought 'my baby left me' are you really using the craft to best express that?
A Simple Example
Now...I love a simple song...so as a 'songwriter' and using this idea...you could sing...(the melody notes on top)
...f#,f#,f#..e.....d...d...c#..d...e..f# ...my baby left me for a-nother guy D...............G................A7.........D
Now try these "three chords" using the sub-min effect...with the same melody
...my baby left me for a-nother guy D...............Gm..............A7.........D
HUGE difference...that Gm sub-dom minor really musically expresses the "left me" even though the melody is exactly the same! So, regardless of how much "truth" there is in the lyric, you believe and actually feel it far more with this tiny modification, than with the standard 12 bar chords, yes?
Not bad for first thing in the morning, could be a hit, I'm kind of proud of that effect attached to the lyric...3 chords, but which three, that is the question!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Feb 16, 2011 22:55:29 GMT -5
hahaha f k you! the main riff is C D7 F but it sounds like theyre throwing in a Fm on the chorus C D7 F Fm this is the kinda thing I like to work up for open mic night down at the bar ;D
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Post by 4real on Feb 16, 2011 23:46:26 GMT -5
Nice catch...yes a quick F-Fm there, suits the reminiscing...this is my kind of music by the way...good soul, great production and straight ahead lyrics in an updated motown sound...very cool!
Some cool guitar work there for a change...but can you work out the middle section?
It's interesting how similar it is in a way to the "temptations" 'I'm losing you' (also a great rod stewart version) which goes C Eb F...that C-D-F thing changes the sound completely...
Thanks, put a smile on my face....
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Post by 4real on Feb 28, 2011 5:04:19 GMT -5
I got to say, I'm really liking Cee Lo Green's voice and material...LOL On the other hand, my adventures in recording and learning a bit of video created this thing that was influenced by this thread... Ok, no guitar...but hey! The 'chords' would be something like C-G/B-Am-F- Fm-C and is effective with this kind of sun going down kind of thing...the cadence of F to C or IV-I is a plagal 'amen' cadence typical of hymns, the Fm gives a nice touch to it. Been a long time since I have 'composed' in this way, I think I can improve it...I'm no keyboard player and this was kind of improvised off the chord idea...enjoy...pete PS, click twice on the image to see and here...there must be a way to embed these things, but I have trouble even doing the YT thing...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Feb 28, 2011 10:21:47 GMT -5
yeah, thats cool, and it is kinda hymn-ish.
btw, 99.9999% of web stuff is single click, only in very special circumstances would you need to double click from a web site. And, no, looks like this board will only let you embed youtube vids.
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Post by sumgai on Feb 28, 2011 18:59:26 GMT -5
Pete, You oughtta just go ahead and post that thing to YT. Photobucket seems to believe that that I don't have the latest and greatest Flash viewer. A lot they know...... (Ever notice how the video format (H.264) hasn't changed in literally years, yet if you don't have 'the latest and greatest' Flash viewer, then you aren't allowed to see something, even if it was made well before the current version of the viewer? What the hell is up with that kind of thinking? Stupid programmers. ) Fortunately for both me and the web in general, YouTube has no such BS requirements. Besides, you can then embed the thing into this page just fine. HTH sumgai
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Post by 4real on Mar 1, 2011 5:36:25 GMT -5
May do...there are some off putting sides to You Tube...like the peanut gallery, and it is still very early stages> I used Soundclick for a few things audio and probably still will. On the other hand, surely a flash upgrade is free, no? There are so many flash websites the internet gets restricted I imagine, I had this problem with the old computer as it would often freak out at pointless flash menus. If Microsoft have their way, we will have to contend with silverlight next...so I agree...
More on topic, I have started to re-read "tunesmith" by Jimmy Webb (by the time i get to pheonix and MacArthur Park fame) and it really is good, technical but with a dry whit and really gets in depth in the mechanics of song writing and such changes and others like these. He has an interesting way of looking at these things too and the effects of such changes. Very enlightening! Another book of interest was one i mentioned earlier and bit of an easier read is "how to write music for hit songs"...a lot of things is intuitive, but there is always some little thing like this kind of change that opens doors and you can get a lot of mileage from.
That Dmajor chord works so well in that Cee Lo song, but it really had me puzzled as to why...Webb sees it as a substitute for the Am chord...similar an Fm and lots of other chords, purely because they have one note in common 'C'. He then goes on to describe other possibilities in an exercise, like Ab7 (also sharing the note C) but dismisses it in that exercise as sounding like it comes from some kind of epic movie or something...LOL...so, a 'professional' has a decent handle on the effects of such thing and their own 'vocabulary'. I must say, having access to a keyboard (though i am not a 'player') it is kind of easier to see how things fit together than guitar tends to be.
On more
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