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Post by JFrankParnell on Jun 28, 2013 13:56:36 GMT -5
Mona Lisa recorded by Jim Reeves written by Jay Livingston and Ray Evans
G7 C F C Mona Lisa Mona Lisa men have named you Dm You're so like the lady with a mystic smile G7 Dm G7 Is it only cause you're lonely they have blamed you C For that Mona Lisa strangeness in your smile F C Do you smile to tempt the lover Mona Li-sa F Or is this your way to hide a broken heart Fm C Many dreams have been brought to your doorstep G7 C They just lie that and they'd die there C7 F C Are you warm are you real Mona Lisa G7 C Or just a cold and lonely lovely work of art
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jun 30, 2013 12:24:48 GMT -5
Surfer Girl - Beach Boys
C Am F G7 Little surfer, little one, Cmaj7 C7 F Fm Made my heart come all un-done. C Am F G7 C Do you love me, do you surfer girl? Am F G7 Surfer girl, my little surfer girl.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 7, 2013 22:39:19 GMT -5
Funkadelic - Soul Mate
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Post by ux4484 on Jul 11, 2013 20:18:48 GMT -5
Been reading this thread in fits and starts for a couple weeks... Wow.
Concerning the "sad" sound of the change to minor, Arthur Alexander even uses the word SAD after the chord change in "Anna" (popularized shortly thereafter by the Beatles).
G All of my life G Ive been searching, for a girl D Who'll love me like I love you G But every girl that I ever had Gm Breaks my heart and leaves me sad E7 What am i what am i A Supposed to do
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Post by 4real on Jul 11, 2013 20:28:49 GMT -5
Been reading this thread in fits and starts for a couple weeks... Wow. Concerning the "sad" sound of the change to minor, Arthur Alexander even uses the word SAD after the chord change in "Anna" (popularized shortly thereafter by the Beatles). G All of my life G Ive been searching, for a girl D Who'll love me like I love you G But every girl that I ever had Gm Breaks my heart and leaves me sad E7 What am i what am i A Supposed to do Nice, this is the middle 8...so the song is in D, and the E7 is a typical use of the "V of V" A being the V chord of D and E7 being the V of A. The beatles music is full of this kind of thing, the minIV too...simple but effective...
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Post by 4real on Jul 11, 2013 20:34:31 GMT -5
Surfer Girl - Beach Boys C Am F G7 Little surfer, little one, Cmaj7 C7 F Fm Made my heart come all un-done. C Am F G7 C Do you love me, do you surfer girl? Am F G7 Surfer girl, my little surfer girl. This tune has a lovely chromatic line through those chords...typical of the close harmony of the beach boys... Cmaj7 (B) - C7 (Bb) - F (A) - Fm (Ab) - C (G)
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Post by 4real on Jul 11, 2013 21:01:09 GMT -5
I made up a simple 'tune' to demo my seagulls pickup systems...and added a bit of this minIV thing...with a bit of a twist...
so the middle bit goes... Am-G/B-C-_F(sus2)-Fmin-Dadd2/F#-G-E7/G#-Am-Am/G-F-G-Am-Am/G-F-Gsus4,G-C
This gives a rising chromatic line in the bass F-F#-G-G#-A ...so F is the Iv chord, D the V of V, G is V and E7 is the V of VI (am)...so takes that minor feeling and 'rises' to the relative minor Am for a bit before resolving to the home major key of C. You get this kind of thing a bit in celtic music and such...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 12, 2013 19:38:25 GMT -5
I made up a simple 'tune' to demo my seagulls pickup systems...and added a bit of this minIV thing...with a bit of a twist... Nice, Pete. I like how it went thru the move real quick.
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Post by 4real on Jul 17, 2013 6:42:11 GMT -5
Thanks JFP...
Here's an interesting one I don't think we have done yet...Elton John's "Your Song"
Piano players tend to look more on a voice leading than guitar players, though there is no reason not to think in that way in addition to more guitaristic block chords...
On the lyrics...
See Ive forgoten if their green or their blue
Am - - - Am/G - - - - - - D/F# - - - - - Dm/F
in the key of C, the song alternats between the home key of C and the relative minor Am as in this bit and so, D is the VI chord of Am and you definitely hear the effect.
By using 'inversions' the chromatic line these changes makes is transposed to the bass...Am, Am/G is Am7 with the 7th in the bass, D/F# is D amjor with the 3rd in the bass, Dm/F is D with the minor third in teh bass...this chord heavily implies Fmajor (given the melody line and that Dm is the relative min of F) which brings things naturally back to C major in the next line "anyway" making a nice 'reflection' like we are shaking of those minor 'blue' feelings there and getting back to the pint of the song...'this is my song and this one's for you' and all that...superb combination of words and musical support of the underlying sentiments.
Even simple songs can be livened by the use of inversions, I'm sure we all know and use G with B in the bass to move between C and Am say. Rather than thinking in terms of 'shapes' though, perhaps consider sucht things as a moving bass that might use any of the notes within a chord. A first inversion V chord like D/F# can be great in G, the leading tone that brings about the 'resolution' is in the bass and, in the process, allows some intersting things on top like D7 with the C or even D( with the open high e and c (given te F# in the bass, two leading tones is a bit of a no-no anyway because it ensures parallel motion. Even D11...or C/D is a cool 'cadence. often used in gospel and all over steely dan and some soul music. So, in D, the open G, C and E in the high strings and the F# on the bottom and open D string perhaps. A more usual way of this kind of thing is the 'shape' of an F chord with a G bass which resolves nicely to a C chord. Typical in hymn music is the "plagal' (ahmen) cadence of IV-I (say F to C) while the 'perfect cadence' is more definite...V-I....the V11 or V/IV makes for a nice combination of the two, the V-I movement int eh bass and IV-I harmony above. SOmething to think about, not your 'usual 'shapes' and yet, perfectly 'playable' and could work in the right kind of song or arrangement if you wanted that kind of 'sound'...
....
Actually, I just noticed some other interesting 'inversion and maj/min 'effects' in this song...
Ok the intro (in C) is C - F/C - G/C - F/C so a simple movement but with a constant C bass through out...
Then the line...
It's a little bit funny, the things that I do (or something like that) C - - - - - - - - -Dm/F - G/B - - - - - - -E7
This sets up the line noted above starting on Am...the E7 being the V7 chord of the key of A. But, also, preceeded by teh G/B...the B to E ving a V-I movement but changing from a first inversion Em7 to a root Edom7 chord...so the feeling is from a 'minor to a major or a 'lift' and change into the Am relative minor line...then in the next a more simply stated C - G - E7 - Am precursing the final line which is simply C - Dm - F - G ...all C major chords (unlike E7 which is from Am) and the 'lift' being a change of the Dm to F and the strong V-I ending cadance. All effective musical reflections of the song's lyrical sentiment which alternates between being 'reflective' and meloncholy and more 'positive' and straight forward...
Again, if one comes up with a 'straight' block chord song, one can use inversions and such to make these kinds of things more 'interesting' and a staple of songwriters from the Beatles to Elvis Costello and of course, all the classic songwriters too...
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Post by 4real on Jul 25, 2013 22:24:11 GMT -5
Hey there...read this from Ash...
Very cool, as it takes a bit of work typing, but still makes one think...
My new(ish) GF is a bit of an Elvis Fan it turns out and plays a little guitar but a real beginner...but said she'd like to learn "Love Me Tender"...so did a quick "fake" that might be playable that seemed to sound about 'right' with the expected chords in C...
C///! Dm/// ! G/// ! C/// ! C///! Dm/// ! G/// ! C/// ! C///! Am/// ! FM7///! C/// ! C///! Dm/// ! G/// ! C/// !
I used Fmaj7 in large part to make the F chord easier... x(0)3210
Ah...and while it kind of works, the melody 'fits', all the chords are 'diatonic'...which all sounds 'vanilla' in a way, if tha makes sense...one can take any of the chords of the major family and arrange them to make basic sequences with thome more common than others...like so (I-VI-IV-V or C-Am-F-G)...
This morning though I showed her a 'fake book' that happened to ahve the song and words and they did it in G so was able to check last nights approximation that was 'passable' and discovered more hidden 'depths' and sophistication of course...
Basically right...as with this thread there is the 'slush' chord of the minor IV, in the key of C being F minor, for the sentimental effect. And the 'opposite' or 'opposite polarity chords' and Rooksby describes them, putting in the Major chord where the family would be minor (or vs a v)...
But, really what is going on here are 'secondary dominants'...that is the V of the V chord, often a dom7th chord for maximum effect.
So...transposed to C (from G) the progression actaully goes to two chords a bar in the third line, in the other lines the D is actually D7...which is the V7 of V...in C being the G chord...so...
C///! D7/// ! G/// ! C/// ! C///! D7/// ! G/// ! C/// ! C/ E7/ ! Am/ C/ ! FMaj7/ Fm/ ! C/// ! C///! D7/// ! G/// ! C/// !
Actually the first bar of the last line goes...
C Dm6 E7#5 E7 ! ooops, transposing error...should be... C-Gm6-A7#5-A7--D7
and the G chords have the 'sus' suspended in the melody so !Gsus4 G // !
and for a turn around, Elvis uses !C / Dm G! to return to the start again and re-establish the diatonic C tonality.
...
So, one might use the smae principles when writting a chord sequence, play some ordinary chords from the family and alter minors to majors or even dom&ths and move or insert them to more directly move the chords by their resolutions and inject some chromatic or unexpected notes intothe mix. The use of say E7 adds the note G#, the Fm also the same note (Ab) and yet the effect is quite different due to the contxt. Using D7 instead of Dm as per the key, feels like it is perhaps in G and so has another effect.
A song like 'sitting on the dock of teh bay' uses this kind of thing extensively, as do a lot of classic soul sngs, with every chord being a major chord...so G-B-C-A in the verses and G-E in the choruses...rather than the 'diatonic' family chords of G-Bm-C-Am and G-Em.
Part of the trick tends to be to have a melody that avoids these 'chromatic notes' in most songs as in both these examples...it's the inner voices and 'effects' that add to the power. Neither of these songs have any accidentals in teh melody and can be sung over the diatonic chords, but addinn these alternatives add more musical interest and power as we have been discussing in this thread.
Another 'strategy' for creating 'original' progressions one might suggest would be to take a fairly 'vanilla' simple diatonic progression and just the 'polarity'...
Taking my 'own advice' withthe guitar at my side...let's take the 4 chord trick of I-Vi-IV-V...like in the video above. Ok, so lets make that Am into A7 and that F as we have done in this thread a minor chord...so... C-A7-Fm-G ... probably is a song or part of one or more...sounds a little 'neil sedaka' or soemthing at first hearing...kind of a rmantic be-bop kind of thing perhaps...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 26, 2013 10:45:52 GMT -5
Reverend Horton Heat - Aw, The Humanity snippet here: amazonlyrics: lyricsPretty funny, he's referring to what the announcer at the Hindenburg explosion said, (oh, the humanity) and relating that to a blown up love affair
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 29, 2013 8:27:15 GMT -5
Here is a free download for an instrumental album that has at least a couple songs with maj-min. Especially the songs Double Dutch Dawn and I think, Legendary Dusk. 4Real and others who appreciate leading lines, etc will like Double Dutch Dawn, it has some pretty interesting progressions. duskwarrior.bandcamp.com/album/overdrive-sunrise
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Post by JFrankParnell on Jul 29, 2013 11:23:18 GMT -5
New York Dolls - Plenty of Music
from the same album, 2006 "One Day It Will Please Us To Remember Even This"
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 26, 2013 17:32:34 GMT -5
maj-min and min-maj
The Kinks - Afternoon Tea
A C#m B Bm Tea time won't be the same without my Donna A C#m B Bm At night I lie awake and dream of Donna C# F#m I think about that small café C# F#m That's where we used to meet each day C# F#m F# And then we used to sit a while D G F#m And drink our afternoon tea
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Post by JohnH on Sept 7, 2013 17:12:47 GMT -5
I like this thread, and there is always something to learn from it. Does this song qualify? Im trying to learn it to sing and play. Its great, the next chord is never the one you expect. At the moment, I like how Nirvana played it unplugged, but it is normally written up a semitone higher:
The Man who Sold the World – D Bowie – Nirvana version
Riff x2 E riff x 2 C#m..pause G# We passed upon the stair C#m We spoke of was and when G# Although I wasn't there E He said I was his friend B Which came as a surprise G# I spoke into his eyes C#m I thought you died alone B A long long time ago E Oh no, not me C E We never lost control B E You're face to face C G# riff C#m riff E riff C#m pause With The Man Who Sold The World
So how's it doing al that? when the C chord comes, it sounds so mysterious, even though it seems to be just a basic chord? And the riff, which is generally all the same, sounds very different as the various chords move behind it.
Here's Nirvana:
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Post by 4real on Sept 8, 2013 2:11:13 GMT -5
I like this thread, and there is always something to learn from it. Does this song qualify? Im trying to learn it to sing and play. Its great, the next chord is never the one you expect. At the moment, I like how Nirvana played it unplugged, but it is normally written up a semitone higher: The Man who Sold the World – D Bowie – Nirvana versionRiff x2 E riff x 2 C#m..pause G# We passed upon the stair C#m We spoke of was and when G# Although I wasn't there E He said I was his friend B Which came as a surprise G# I spoke into his eyes C#m I thought you died alone B A long long time ago E Oh no, not me C E We never lost control B E You're face to face C G# riff C#m riff E riff C#m pause With The Man Who Sold The World So how's it doing al that? when the C chord comes, it sounds so mysterious, even though it seems to be just a basic chord? And the riff, which is generally all the same, sounds very different as the various chords move behind it. Here's Nirvana: Ok...I'll have a go. Recall the influences on writers like bowie and indeed the beatles for which there are simularities in the more 'active' bass line later in the song I think you might agree. "Life on Mars" as we discussed earlier, was a direct 'rip' of Sinatra's 'My Way' reulting in more internal modulations, fairly common and expected in jazz standads and 'the american songbook' for which this is a part. Other influences are from an era where such devices were all a part of the songwriters 'toolbox' that seems rather lacking these days in most musics...but there you go, just a different aesthetic. So, after a brief listen and play through, there are a few things at work, but not a difinitive 'answer' but somethings to consider. Consider the key. In this case as written above Emajor and it's relative C#m between which it moves. In E G# would normally be minor, but as the V of C#m G#dom7 can reasonably be expected. The 'riff' features the notes G#,F# and A. On G# this makes for the 7th and the b9 typical of a V in a minor key. with C#m it works as A bing the b6 also common enough in a minor chord and the other notes the 5th and 4th. With E these notes are the sus4 and sus2 common enough 'decorations' of a major tonic chord. So...at the start of teh verse, consider we are in C#m and so we are going Im to Vm, strongly suggesting C minor...this is the natural minor scale, aolian mode or Emaaj transposed, however you consider those notes..ie the E major scale notes (or C#m)...right... So...we know that C#m and Emajor are related strongly and so the E chord is not a surprise, but it is kind of changing key to E major on the line...or starting to suggest a change... E He said I was his friend B Which came as a surprise The B being the V of and confirming the 'surprise' of a new key, the relative major of C#m...but not for long...as the G#7 soon follows back to C#m...so a 'false modulation' if you will. Ok...so back to C#m. B is an interesting 'pivot chord' in that B major in modal music generally acts as a V to the C#m being one as the cadence. The G#7 is 'artificial' in modes and minors as it requires rasing that 3rd to make the leading tone in C# where normally it would be 'flat' or the note B. B is of course the V of E so makes the change make 'sense' in this environment. NOW...thoe noly chord 'out' is the C major really, considering the 'reverse polarity' of the G# having been explained above....and it is of course. The way I would originally ahve considered it, as one 'option' is perhaps offered as this example. You likely know that ina blues, one can have a turnaround of C-B-E in the key of E, and so going E-C-E-B-E is just a prolonging of this movement. That's one thing to consider. Another is as you 'suggest' but i think a different effect. The C has the notes of Amin7 without the root and in first iversion. The 'potent' note of the bIVm substitution we have been discussing is that minor third C note and so C serves that function, but is a different kind of effect, similar, but different. You often find this bVII chord in 'spy music' such as 'bond themes' as the b6 note really leans back to the B for resolution, a note common to both the B and E chords. One could consider that C chord as a bit of a mix of 'minor' in the major mode then, with a bit of an illusion and the effect of the bIV chord beind discussed in this thread. There is some mixing of 'modes' as well, the C in Eminor would be perfectly usuall...consider the 'stairway' or sultans of swing sequences that use Em,D,C or im-bVII-bVI The thing about 'theory' one the most rudimentary level, is not that one must 'stick to' the natural chords of a key. One thing that is also often ignored is that the harmony works in conjunction with the melody, often the melody is the 'driving force'...so lets look at that C where it appears in terms of melody with the harmony. In fact, the C chord has the melody notes of A and B only. SO again, hiting at an Am chord with the C in the bass, first inversion, as the A is dominant in melody. The chord is likely 'better' as a Cmaj7 in IMHO, but you be the judge, it avoids some of the conflict of teh B and C notes and might at least make that line easier to sing and perhaps less disonant there, and enhance that 'mystery' and relate strionger to the E key, having teh B in it. In fact, perhaps even a C6maj7 such as x-3-2-2-0-0 would be better to express the actual melody notes being played. Notice that there is no 'C anywhere other than the harmony so all is 'in key' other than that "C note". Earlier I mentioned 'dock of the bay' and other soul songs that often force all majors say in a key...part of how they can do that so successfully, is because the melody is designed such to avoid the 'sharpened third in such chords that would normally be minor. The root, bass movements are generally strong enough to withstand such manipulation and still feel 'right' witout the sense of a change of key, just some thing 'colourful' going on. In this song, the G# changes are very prominent and seem 'odd' because the third is prominent in teh melody. Now, consider that note is B#...or in fact C!!! Now you can get a bit of a clue as to why the C is 'mysterious and how it 'relates' there, as the leading tone of the key of C#m and so, given that key is the dominent one and the key to the song, the C makes sense in a much more cohesive way. True a bit 'odd' and mysterious for it, but not jarringly out of place given the melody before hand and as the modulation was to E and back to C#minor, the C chord hints on this ambiguity and change back to that key, or to colour the temporary Emajor transitions and hint at the two. Lyrically two, the music paints a picture...and there are almost like two 'scenes' or tenses in time...the reflective minor key with the odd C note dominating, and the more present tense of being 'face to face...with the man who sold the world'...a product of this 'past' perhaps. Though, that side of things should not be taken too much to heart I guess, and just an observation as the music is putting across that certain alien sinister thing fairly well through these 'unusual' but understandable note choices and harmonic movements. Ok...not saying that is the only way one could break it down, but certainly it is 'a way' that it can be understood as to how it works...hope that helps...discuss perhaps...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 12, 2013 18:07:49 GMT -5
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 16, 2013 13:15:57 GMT -5
There are two different versions of the chords on Ultimate Guitar, not completely sure which (if either) is right. I think it's the first one:
A Am I'm not in love, so don't forget it. E/G# G#7 C#m C#m7 It's just a silly phase I'm going through. A Am And just because I call you up, E/G# G#7 C#m C#m7 Don't get me wrong, don't think you've got it made. A B9sus4 E A/E G/E A/E I'm not in love, no no, it's because...
But I haven't actually tried playing it as this second:
A Am I'm not in love, so don't forget it. G#m G#7 C#m C#m7 It's just a silly phase I'm going through. A Am And just because I call you up, G#m G#7 C#m C#m7 Don't get me wrong, don't think you've got it made. A F#m B E – G* - A* - G* I'm not in love, no no, it's because...
Either way, there's no messing around. Just right into the A to Am thing.
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Post by 4real on Sept 16, 2013 20:52:55 GMT -5
'I'm not in love' is a classic song and an unusual example that many people don't think about when writting music or looking at it to study and play and in this examples similarities with John's example of the David Bowie/Nirvana "The Man who Sold the World" earlier that mixes the elements of major and minor, again in the key of E and related C#minor...
It begins in on the 'sub-dominant' or 4 chord...which kind of 'hangs there. A song like Cyndy Laupers 'time after time' also intros around the IV, V and VI chords before coming to the C key of the song.
So, yes, it is an example of that IV chord major and minor and I think that 'feeling is evident' even in the introduction before one is consicous of the 'key' at all.
Th other chords around it are clearly E major and C#m such as the G#m (iii of E) becoming G#dom7, the V7 of C#minor yet we dont really get that 'release' to the key of E till it comes to the line '...it's because...'
It's important to realise that a song need not begin, can even avoid, the actual key...perhaps not even 'end' on the 'tonic' of the chord sequence and is soemthing I love in great song writing.
A song I am arranging and playing a bit lately is 'Killing me Softly' which has an introduction in the IV major to the key of Am and finsishes on the E major chord and the melody note B and uses a really interesting set of suspensions and resolutions and inversions that gives the song it's depth. It's soemthing tunes generally need when you strip them of their lyrics and instrumental 'colour' and arranged for solo guitar...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 17, 2013 9:38:37 GMT -5
Frank Black (the Pixies, several songs on this thread) did a cover of this song, you can hear the maj min more pronounced than this original.
Good one, Ashcat ^ I love those 70s AM hits, brings me right back to rainy bus rides to school as a kid.
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 20, 2013 10:07:11 GMT -5
At risk of derailing this amazingly focused thread...
A friend of mine posted this on Facebook today, and I find it fascinating:
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 27, 2013 22:58:20 GMT -5
More top 40 cheese from my childhood! REO Speedwagon - "I Can't Fight This Feeling" A Amaj7 F#m I can't fight this feeling any longer
Bm7 E And yet I'm still afraid to let it flow
A E What started out as friendship
Em F#7 Has grown stronger
Bm7 E I only wish I had the strength to let it show
A Amaj7 F#m I tell myself that I can't hold out forever
Bm7 E I say there is no reason for my fear
A E Em F#7 Cause I feel so secure when we're together
Bm7 C#m You give my life direction
D E You make everything so clear
(Pre-Chorus:)
D C#m And even as I wander I'm keeping you in sight
D You're a candle in the window
A E On a cold dark winter's night
D E F#m And I'm getting closer than
E D I ever thought I might
(Chorus:)
D A Bm7 D And I can't fight this feeling anymore
A Bm7 D I've forgotten what I started fighting for
A Bm7 It's time to bring this ship into the shore
C#m D E D And throw away the oars forever
D A Bm7 D Cause I can't fight this feeling anymore
A Bm7 I've forgotten what I started fighting for
D A Bm7 And if I have to crawl upon the floor
C#m D Come crashing through your door
E A + Intro Baby I can't fight this feeling anymore It's a bit different from most of the others in this thread, I think. It fits almost perfectly into A, except for that one Em at the end of the verse. This is a V to v move, as opposed to the the IV to iv thing that seems to be so common. I guess it's almost a substitute for the V7, but it also leads sort of leads down - G#, G, F#. Course, in key of A, that should go to F#m - vi, or relative minor - but the dom7 is a decent substitute there, and sort of leads back down to the tonic from the Em - B, A#, A. ...or something... ( )
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Post by ux4484 on Sept 28, 2013 0:25:46 GMT -5
More top 40 cheese from my childhood! REO Speedwagon - "I Can't Fight This Feeling" You lost me (running away & screaming) at REO...
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 28, 2013 11:25:06 GMT -5
That 10cc documentary was killer, Ash.
C A7 If you close the door Dm G The night could last forever C A7 Leave the sunshine out Dm G And say hello to never C C7 Someday I know someone will look into my eyes F And say hello Fm You're my very special one
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 29, 2013 12:07:58 GMT -5
I'm on a VU kick... Lou is fond of the maj-min
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 29, 2013 13:34:11 GMT -5
Apparently, Lou discovered or rediscovered the maj min on his 96 record, Set the Twilight Reeling
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 29, 2013 15:17:43 GMT -5
He was still into it in 2000
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Post by JFrankParnell on Oct 1, 2013 10:02:48 GMT -5
More New York Dolls
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Post by JFrankParnell on Oct 3, 2013 12:00:08 GMT -5
Alex Chilton - Ice Cream progression, then maj-min in the bridge:
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Post by JFrankParnell on Oct 4, 2013 12:23:42 GMT -5
Alice Cooper - Alma Mater
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