A Little About Scale Harmonization

[ozboomer]

If you harmonize a standard C Major scale into triads, you will get the familiar sequence of chords:-

C Maj - Dm - Em - F Maj - G Maj - Am - B Dim - C Maj

However, is there a technique/piece of software (other than the simple writing 'em all out, which I 'spose I SHOULD do... *poit*) that will help work the other way? That is, let's say I have the transition Dm -> Em in a tune. If they happen to be functioning in the tune as ii -> iii, it's obvious the key is (likely to be) C Major (or A Minor)... but what if I don't KNOW the harmonization?

I might have a stack of practical/"workman" knowledge but I don't necessarily know all the scale harmonizations in my head (...yet).

So, until I DO, what can I apply/work with to help me do this analysis of chord transitions/progressions... and get the scale harmonizations learnt?

[4real]

Interesting...

There are lots of implications in the question, but maybe I think too much...

You say "functioning" as ii and iii but two minor chords a step apart does not mean that it works that way. You'd need more information to really determine "functioning" or key. A ii-V-I may conclusively indicate a 'key', you need some kind of 'cadence' to be really function. 7th chords can help to determine these things and you kind of want to learn the harmonization's up to 4 parts...so...


C Maj7 - Dm7 - Em7 - F Maj7 - Gdom7 - Am7 - B7half Dim7 - C Maj7

anyway...


A common 'vamp' for instance is say Am-Bm (or the equivalent in other keys) in such songs as "moon dance" and many others. One might think of such a part of a tunes as being in the relative minor of C major (Am) but then the B would be a b5 or half diminished chord but it generally is. So, you have a scale that includes an F# in it. SO, one might actually treat this kind of thing as a 'dorian' mode...Am dorian. The notes are those of Gmaj starting on A (the ii of Gmaj)

So, I sense there maybe some modal things that come into these things very often. I have a feeling that this is something that perhaps this is headed. The major scale is after all just one "mode" (ionian) and there is something about the question that perhaps would be better dealt in this context as it is often explained badly.

But, perhaps that's moving too far ahead...

...

OK...I don't know of any "software" per se, but I don't think that would be very useful. What you do have in the guitar is a handy "slide rule" where you can visualize such things though.

One thing to note is the sequence here and the unique patterns created perhaps...

C Maj - Dm - Em - F Maj - G Maj - Am - B Dim - C Maj

Ok...so,

two minor chords only occur a step above other like that once...ii and iii...Dm -Em

Two major triads only occur a step above other once...IV and V...F - G

A minor chord only appears before a major chord a half step apart once...iii-IV...Em - F

There is only one half diminished or flat 5 triad, this can be a problematic chord but is rarely used...but it is a half step below the tonic.

There are two places where a minor chord is a step above a major chord...I-ii and V-vi...C-Dm and G-Am

...

Ok, so...taking this information...

If ever you see two major chords together, one might think of it as being VI and V of a parent major scale, but a cadence establishing C as the tonic or key is required, if not, then we are possibly in a different modal environment.

For instance, if a progression is say G-F where F sounds like Home, this could well be a lydian progression (F-lyd), if G-F where G sounds like home, a mixolydian progression (G-mix)...the notes in both cases would be those as Cmaj...but it is better not to think of modes in this way.

Ok...so examples...

If I am seeing two chords...this is the kind of way I might 'visualize' how they relate to a major scale...and use the guitar as a "slide rule" on a basic level...

Ok...so you have two major chords a tone apart F and G, they might belong to a major tonality, what is the only major scale where F and G appear, C major. C major is the A shape barre chord below the E shape barre chord...or better yet, realize the guitar is mainly tuned in 4ths, so the "I" note is a 4th above (or 5th below as they are equivalent inversions like 7ths and 2nds or 3rds and 6ths) so the chord "above" (a shape barre above V is one, so the one 'above' G is C).

It's of course easier to show someone.

So, Bb-C going to be F. D-E going to be A. F#-G# going to be C#

all I am thinking is what is the note on the A string directly under the E string root of a chord, if that makes sense, G to C and using that "pattern" like a slide rule for any of these others.

So, Dm-Em going to be C. Two minor chords, going to be ii-iii so the first minor chord is a step above I. Take a step back and you have your "key"...

So...Bbm-Cm = Ab, C#-D# = B

minor-maj half step apart, iii-VI...Em-F = C

The VI chord is the A shape barre directly 'under' the E shape "I" chord, as you'd know from playing a blues, yes? Or the root of the VI is the note on the A string, adjacent to the I root on the E string below it. So...

Em-F = C, Gm-Ab = Db, Bm C# = A

EXERCISE: So, to get a handle on this, sit with the guitar in hand and just randomly play two chords from the sequence, as above, and work out the major scale in which they belong visualizing the E and A shape barre chords perhaps and noting the roots as they fall on the E and A strings or along a string.

Additional points; learn the inverted intervals and "shapes" on these two strings. So, a 4th is the note directly adjacent, so G to C on the third fret. A fifth is the inversion, think of this "shape" as a power chord, a string up and two frets across. So, F-C on the 8th fret are adjacent, F-C on the first fret (F) is a fifth above (two frets along) on the A string (3rd fret).

....

It's tricky to know exactly the 'application' that you are looking at here, this kind of thing can be useful, but not everything relates back to a minor or major scale and much of these things in rock and pop are modal, in jazz, the functions and key centres can change or modulate.

And, there are always interesting exceptions that don't "fit the rule"...

I play a bit of soul for instance, and you often find things like this to confuse...and example might be a song like "sitting on the dock of the bay" Sounds kind of Major-y, and is best thought of as in the key of Gmaj...

In G, the verse 'progression' is...

G / B / C / A / x2

chorus

G / E / G / E / G / A / G / E

middle 8

G / D / C / C / x3
G / D / C / G / F / D

all major chords, so isn't going to "fit" into a major scale thing easily, though it is clearly "In G"

So, might take a bit more understanding with every single chord being a major triad.

You couldn't for instance, take any of these major chords in isolation and get the sense of key...but if you get an idea of the sound, you can hear the 'exceptions. You can hear the "lift" in the Bmaj triad instead of the Bm or iii chord in G or the "lift" in the Amaj ii chord or the Emaj vi chord in the progression because of the expectation that these majors should normally be minbor in this key, yet the roots are strong enough to give that expectation and so set up the 'exception'. So, a half step movement from B to C is going to have something of the feel of iii-IV because the major sequence of harmony has only this kind of half step movement to IV (C) or to the tonic. We sense it isn't the tonic, because it started on G and that's the only reference. As the tune goes on we get to feel G to be the key even more.

...

There are many songs, apparently simple, that can fool you!

Here's an interesting one that can 'trick' a lot of people. There is no need for a song to start on the key, it might avoid it for effect.

The song "time after time" is such a song...

intro
F - G - Em - F x2
verse
C(add4,2) - C repeat

You know that two major chords a step apart only appear as the IV and V chords in a major key, a minor chord a half step below a major only once iii-IV...so F - G - Em - F clearly is saying C major even though the chord doesn't appear yet.

"True colors" is similarly interesting and tricky in the same key...Cmaj

intro/verse
/ Am / G/B / C / F / etc

You will find that the viib5 chord is very rare, usually in pop and such the V in first inversion is used as above. So...G with B in the bass in place of Bmb5. As I say, a half diminished or vii dim triad is very rare in practice.

no woman no cry...

/ C / G/b / Am / F / etc

kind of the reverse of true colors and a common kind of thing in many songs.

...

As I say, the application is a bit obscured in the question. It could be a modal thing, if so, then there are better ways to think about such things. It is better to be thinking for a progression that is minor as a minor mode than relating if back to some non related major that happens to have the same notes.

There are ways similar to this technique to determine this. If A minor tune, where a minor key or chord feels like home, but the IV chord is major, this would indicate a 'dorian' tune.

So...Dm - Gmaj = D dorian (or ii of C)

this kind of thing is a fav of santana, say a vamp of Am-Dmaj being very "dorian".

But there can be all kinds of mixes of modal influences and major and minor.

...

It is important to "know" these functional relationships though, but more than learning things by rote is to be able to hear them in a functional way, not just degrees of the scale.

You need to get a sense of the pull of V-I cadences, how it wants to resolve. Or that IV-V doesn't seem to find a home.

Further study will find that some chords are much like another and share similar functions.

A ii chord much like a V...

"all right now"
I...ii / I..../ having a bit of the quality, but less decisive that /I...V/ I..../ but firmly securing the I as the tonic key.

vi often functioning like the I... Am and Cmaj for example...

...

Anyway, morning coffee, not at my most precise...

Hope there is some information of use or interest. I found the guitar itself to be the best pattern generator for these kinds of things, at least to get a handle on things, and since that's where you are presumably wanting to apply it, you save yourself a few steps.

One thing worth doing is learning the major scale, or any scales, along the strings instead of "in position". Fortunately, as guitar players, we will often already know these things from playing chords of progressions with the roots on the low E and A strings.

The relationships are the same though on all but those that involve the B string as well. So, you could use the A and D string, or the D or G string or indeed the B and high E string as they are all tuned a 4th apart so all these interval shapes are the same. For the B string, the rule is to simply "add a fret" to these shapes.

This kind of thing is great for learning all the notes of the fret board and all the intervals between the notes and having an internal graphical reference or "slide rule" to get things from.

I suppose though, an application to what you are seeking from these things would be important to know...there could be all kinds of inferences or expectations in the question.

If simply wanting to learn the sequence, then I'd be learning the sequence of majors and minors and the functions independent of key rather than learning chord names for all the different keys.

This is more how functional harmoiny works and is very useful. It is how you get "Nashville numbered" charts as well. So, they give the functions then decide the key later...

I / vi / ii / V
C-Am-Dm-G
A-F#m-Bm-E
etc.

This kind of thinking will make transposing much easier and for some will be a big leap from thinking of songs in terms of particular chords to "functions".

If you can make that leap, you will start to 'hear' progressions fairly readily and you will be bale to get a song under your fingers pretty quickly, or write your own...

Learning common progressions and how they function is invaluable, work them out in every key.

Obviously things like the 12 bar or folk kind of simple things like...
I-IV-V
things like the old (think 'stand by me')
I-vi-IV-V
or 'jazzy' ii-V-I progressions
I-vi-ii-V

Minor keys can be a bit trickier as there can be a lot of modal influences, chiefly between Dorian and Aeolian (or natural minor). The first relating to ii of a major scale, the later to vi. You can often tell the difference in such progressions by whether the IV chord is major or minor. major in dorian, minor in aeolian or natural minor.

Sometimes there are harmonic minor influences or phrygian touches with the V being dominant...

progressions such as i-bVII-VI are commonplace (petty's 'breakdown" comes to mind, end of stairway to heaven) (ex; am-G-F)

but sometimes you get things like i-bVII-VI-V ('sultans of swing' or a few surf tunes and such) (ex; Dm-C-Bb-A)

anyway, learning 'progressions and going through tunes you know and calling out the functions of chords will give you more of an "ear" for things and how they are functioning.

Of course though, two chords in isolation does not make a "key", it takes a bit more to work that out. Dm-Em could be D dorian minor key perhaps and not C though the notes are the same. If you get a sense of the sound and feel of the different chords though, you will be really getting the idea of the "functional relationships" and worth aiming for this goal over simply memorizing the harmonization's of the major scale itself.

[lunaalta]

WOW, you guys blow me away....
Plug it in, etc, etc.....

[ozboomer]

Yowzer!

Many thanks for the detailed thoughts, there, 4r... it's gonna take more than one sitting to take all THAT in

Suffice to say, the idea of the "slide rule" appeals to me for a couple of reasons: 1. I used 'em nearly 30 years ago (when others at school were just starting to use calculators, I was learning slide rule.. had a thing about logarithms, I guess... or was it dB when trying to do my first lot of sound mixing!?)... and 2. the relativity thing makes it a bit more accessible, I think. A few different people are trying to do some basic "instruction" elsewhere and they're using the idea of "1 fret... 2 frets" and "stacking 3rds" to explain some of these things, so the "relative" idea might help with that.

For me, I've recently been playing about with looking at a particular 2-chord transition (a "i - iv" in a minor key: Dm7 - Gm7)... and instead of just playing some notes from a D minor pentatonic scale, I was branching out a bit and playing some notes from a G Dorian scale (G - A - Bb - C - D - E - F) over the Gm7 chord (G - Bb - D - F), as the chord tones exist in the G Dorian scale.

Although most of the mode things are new to me (even though I've used some of the ideas before, without putting a name to them), the sound appeals to me (Dorian kind-of, sort-of sounds minor-ish) and I wanted to see about some example transitions (progressions?) to try and play against...

For example, I might say I want to do something with D Dorian (D - E - F - G - A - B - C - D)... So, the question I need to answer might be: "What chords from a harmonized major scale (or minor scale) can I use in a standard progression/transition that will allow me to play D Dorian?".

Again, maybe I have my wires crossed and I'm doing things backwards (it's better to start with the chord progression, not the scale... is it?) and see what note choices present themselves.

'tis all about some "vocabulary extension", y'see... to get away from JUST playing pentatonic scales and JUST playing chord tones... as well as getting to use some other techniques, like playing more leaps than steps, etc...

Finding ever more to explore... but how to do it in an organized way...

[4real]

Ok...well there are lots of different ways to approach this kind of thing...

You haven't quite grasped the modal thing I would suggest, but as I suspected, that's the direction you are going in.

It determine a 'mode' you need to know what the key centre is, the home or tonic chord.

In your Dm-Gm vamp, this may be Dm by the sound of it...so Dm is "1" or i right?

So, you could play Dm aeolian, or natural minor. This is the relative minor to F major, same notes but starting on D...but best to learn to hear this minor scale as the natural minor, not a major scale starting on the 6th degree.

Now, "dorian" is 'the other' minor, built on the 2nd degree of a major scale...yep, that's right...F major. So, the note 'set' is exactly the same, the only difference is the root you consider to be home...in this case it sounds like D natuaral minor or aeolin mode or the relative minor to F amjor...Dminor.

You can tell, because the 'iv' chord to Dminor as 'i' is a minor, Gminor. If the IV chord was major, then Dm dorian would be appropriate having Bnat instead of Bb.

"What chords from a harmonized major scale (or minor scale) can I use in a standard progression/transition that will allow me to play D Dorian?".

In Dm dorian...(D - E - F - G - A - B - C - D)...you would use chords that fit with C major scale...
C Maj - Dm - Em - F Maj - G Maj - Am - B Dim - C Maj
however, in making up progressions you either want things that float along in vamps like you'd hear say a carlos santana often play...or you'd need to learn some 'modal cadences.

These kinds of progressions can be a bit different from your normal tonal maj/min environments.

For instance, the Am-Dm of v-i is not as strong as A7-Dm. You could change that chord and make adjustments to the scale at that point or use a harmonic minor kind of thing so that you can include C# as a leading tone to D.

However, a typical 'modal cadence' would be bVII to i
say C-Dm instead of Am-Dm.

Still, modal tunes often don't work in the functional way that 'classical' harmony might expect to...for example...

You could consider Chris Issacs famous song to debatably be in Bm dorian. The progression repeats this sequence throughout...

/ Bm / A / E / E /

The signature riff and melody avoids the main 'dorian note' of G# though it is in the harmony fairly strongly. Some may think it in Emaj, as it seems to settle on this chord but if you listen it sounds as if in Bm and tends not to settle anywhere, such as in the last lyrical line that ends on E, it feels unresolved.

So a simple but interesting and effective progression. i-bVII-IV in dorian. If considered to be in E, it would perhaps be mixolydian, same notes thought and I still hear it as in Bm...see what you think of it. It's a similar example to yours, is it a 'minor tune' as I hear it in Bm or a major tune in E mixolydian?

...

But, thee things can be confusing and often explained badly or hard to understand and the results might not be what you want in the end. Let's consider another way to build on what you already know...I recently typed out something on morphing pentatonics into modes...so I will see if I can find it for you and paste it into the next post...

...

PS, I know it is a lot to digest, take what you can and not all at once....

[4real]

First, lets forget about the Locrian for now. So that leaves 6 modes, each have a distinctive sound created by the intervals within the scale and between each tone and the root tone and between each tone and each other...

But hey...six main modes, so three major and three minor...

Minor modes...

Dorian
minor mode, built on the 2nd degree of major, esp useful where the IV chord in a minor mode is Major...say, Dm-G
Aeolian
minor mode, also known as the natural minor, relative minor to the major scale
built from the 6th degree of major and esp useful where the iv chord is minor...say Am-Dm or progressions such as Am-G-F
Phrigian
Exotic minor mode, gipsy kind of thing, arabic or spanish perhaps. Might be good over a progression like Em-F or say, Em-G-F-Em or similar

Major modes
Ionian
Basically the major scale, from the 1st degree of major...enough said
Lydian
built on the 4th degree, basically a major scale with a raised 4th. say a vamp of F-G where F is the clear tonic...a vamp of Fmaj7-Cmaj7 is another nice lydian kind of sound
Mixolydian
built from the V degree, basically the major scale with a b7 and good for basic dominant chords, perhaps a vamp of a static G7 for instance or G-F-G where G is a clear tonic or I chord.

...

Ok...here's a different way of getting into these things, "pentatonic scaffolding"

So...you will be familiar with the pentatonic scales major and minor, yes?

So, these five note scales lack 2 tones compared to the modes which have 7 notes.

Take the minor pentatonic...

A,C,D,E,G

now add two notes to it...

add B and F# get dorian
add B and F get Aeolian/natural minor
add Bb and F get phrigian

these notes and the intervals that are created by them are the "sound" of the modes over the more basic pentatonic

Take the major pentatonic

C,D,E,G,A

add B and F get ionian or major scale
add B and F# get lydian
add Bb and F get mixolydian

So, basically, you can use the pentatonic scales major or minor and by adding two more notes turn them into minor or major modes.

Many make the mistake of thinking of the modes as a major scale beginning on different note...say dorian as C major starting from D but this misses the point IMHO

What you really are dealing with are three distinct major and three minor modes each with their own sounds. Each different from their respective maj or min pentatonics by the addition of two notes. These two notes and the intervals they create make the characteristic "sound" or character of modes.

The b7 in mixolydian, the #4 in lydian, the leading tone B in major perhaps.
The natural 6th in dorian, the b6 aeolian, the b2 (or 9) and b6 in phrygian.

By learning the modes from the same root will make this more clear. Play A pentatonic stuff, now add in the two notes from different modes and sense the difference and the effective intervals and colour notes in there, then the same for major modes. Perhaps play them over a tonic 'drone' to begin with, then create progressions and vamps that utilize these colours.

Hope this helps and speeds things along...

There you go...

[4real]

Ok...so what I was trying to explain above is that you can kind of bypass the names of the modes and a lot of that stuff and adapt the major and minor pentatonic scales with 2 more notes to make any of the major or minor modes.

Which notes to add depends on the progression that 'fits' from which the previous material may help a bit, Frank Gamble's video 'modes, no more mystery' is quite good at explaining how to identify modal progressions and I think it's largely on youtube perhaps.

Briefly though...

if you have a minor progression, you can play the minor pentatonic scale.

If the progression is minor and the IV chord is major, likely dorian so add the 2nd and 6th degree. So, for Dm, pentatonic plus C# and Bnat. If the IV chord is minor iv, then aeolian is perhaps a better choice, so the second and b6 notes, so C# and Bb in Dm.

The phrygian mode is more "exotic" can sound a bit spanish or arabic perhaps. You add the b2 and b6 to the minor pentatonic.

Here's a progression that I made up that is a bit "phrygian"...
//Dm7..Ebmaj7../Dm7..Cm7/Gm7..Ebmaj7/Dm....//
the 2 chord is a half step above i and major and the vii chord is minor compared to the other minor modes, so Cm in a Dm phrigian progression.

In truth though, you could use phrigian or Dm pentatonic plus a b2 and b6 notes, or Eb and Bb. If you don't like the word "phrigian and it sounds "all greek to you" then call it a "spanish minor" if you like.

Major modes are the same kinds of things...
Major pentatonic, b7 to the major scale makes mixolydian, good if the I chord is dominant and in C this note would be Bb and the VII chord would be a Bb major. Lydian is the darling of people like Via but it has its uses, it is basically the major scale with a #4.

If thinking pentatonics plus two notes...

Major pentatonic plus 4 and 7 (F and B, in C major) is ionian or "major".

For mixolydian, pentatonic major plus 4 and b7 (F and Bb, in C major)

For lydian, pentatonic major plus #4 and 7 (F# and B, in C major)

Being an aussie too, you may recall the matt finish song, short note, this is an interesting example of a 'lydian' progression...

/ Dmaj7sus2 / Amaj7 / repeat...

so, in the key of D but the notes D-E-F#-G#-B-C#-D

So, the notes are the major pentatonic, plus the added notes in bold. The #4 is the particular color note for lydian and gives it it's sound and in this key is F#.

...

There are lots of ways to add colour to your vocabulary and certain techniques for different sounds and approaches and types of music.

If you wanted to play for instance, you would need to learn how to use arpeggios to navigate through changes and modulations. These things have their uses in more 'static' things though as well.

In truth there is an infinite number of scales and approaches, learning everything by rote is a bit of a tough call...and maybe not necessary for what you want to do.

Expanding and superimposing pentatonics are a power ful tool...

Here's something I was thinking about from the jazz vocab recently...some of these kind of out notes are chromatic ideas...so fall "outside"...

So, here's just one principle. You can approach any melody note, say a scale tone or a chord tone or the melody itself, from a semitone above and below in an "enclosure"...

so, here's an Am pentatonic lick or melody...

--------------------------------5----------------------
-------------------------5--------------5~~-----------
----------5------7--------------------------------------
---7---------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------

here's the same thing with a chromatic enclosure on every note...

-------------------------------------------6-4-5----------------------
-----------------------------------6s4-5---------5~~---------------
---------------6s4-5---s8-6-7--------------------------------------
---7~s8-6-7------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------

Of course you don't need to do this kind of thing with every single note like this, but if you play this you will hear that original melody being 'spelled out' with all kinds of seemingly out notes surrounding them.

...

But it's a long road and depends where you want to be headed. Modes will add 2 more colour notes to pentatonics, chromatic ideas such as passing notes will fill the gaps.

If you want to add more "leaps" then a good idea is to learn intervals and play through melodic sequences to get a feel for them.

So, you might alternate each tone in a major scale say, this will be jumping about in thirds, major and minor, in line with the harmonizations. these kinds of things can often be more effective along the strings and great fro getting from one position to another....

So, C maj...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----5---6---8----10----12-----13-----15-----17----------------
---5---7---9---10---12-----14-----16-----17--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------

But you know, got to practice these things in all positions and all strings and keys etc, etc. You will see that it is alternating M3,m3,m3,M3,M3,m3,m3,M3 in line with the triads of the major scale.
Of course these are just thirds and one way to play them...there are hundreds if not infinite patterns you could make up...

...

But, if one is inclined towards the blues, there is heaps of notes that "make sense" in that language...

For instance, there's the pentatonic minor. The b3 is a blue note if playing Am pentatonic over A7 say...so you could also add the normal third and of course the b5...

So in an A blues you have the five pentatonic notes, perhaps some modal notes, say dorian and then some blue notes...

So for an A7 blues you could make use of A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A or dorian or Am pentatonic plus 2nd and 6th degree and add also, C# as the natural 3rd and Eb as the b5 blue note....that gives you 10 out of a possible 12 notes on that chord alone.

The same notes and principles can be used for major and other modes as well.

There are kind of melodic conventions to using 'blue notes' of course.

...

So, a big pandoras box. opening up for you...hopefully there will be hope in the bottom of it...

I think working on progressions is a great way to start into learning things, put things to use asap instead of trying to learn everything and by rote.

The slide rule thing and working out of pentatonics is not perhaps as hard as I've made it seem...hmmm

oh...It might be a good idea to make a bit of an audit of what you do know and where you would like to go next. Do you know all the notes on the fretboard, can you tell a note is a chord tone, can you tell the scale degrees of say the pentatonic scale so you could easily add a 2nd or b2 to it?

If you want to test out some 'progressions' you make up or come across and get an handle on what are appropriate notes or approaches to it, I'd be happy to oblige, but You got more than enough to digest for now I suspect... pete

[ozboomer]

Dang. Double-dang.

4real, you've done it again, chum. Too much info in too little time(!) ...but I surely appreciate the info; I think I have about 3 months work to partially absorb what you've posted here today... so that will surely keep me out of trouble ;D

...but I like the idea of extending the pentatonics by a note or two. The way I like to do things is to start with something simple and then extend it some... but to do so with a bit of theory behind it, rather than something random. This is why the following appeals:

In truth though, you could use phrigian or Dm pentatonic plus a b2 and b6 notes, or Eb and Bb.

I can get a handle on a pentatonic scale Ok, in a few positions, on a couple of string sets and that's enough for what I want to do... but to "extend the vocabulary" by adding 2 notes and then I can call it "Phrygian" helps direct my note choices a bit, rather than adding "random" notes.

Another thing that rings true:

Modes will add 2 more colour notes to pentatonics, chromatic ideas such as passing notes will fill the gaps.

..which leads to the thinking that there is never any such thing as a "wrong note"; it's a matter of defining the "landing points"... and the "route between landing points" (often) comes from the modes... at least, that's a way that I can understand, instead of simply playing random notes and seeing what sounds right, which I think is probably a valid way to go for some people, but with my analytical mind, is a bit too... "directionless"... for want of a better word.

Y'see, I had been working with an excellent teacher for a few years and although we were progressing "slow and steady", the $$$ got too much of a drain and I had to discontinue my lessons... but your couple of postings today actually added a lot of light to what (I think) he was trying to do (although, most of it was unstated, I suppose).

...and while I'll admit I'm still learning basic scales and their shapes, the locations of notes on the fretboard and I'm still working on inversions of simple major/minor/7th triads on all string sets, I have a reasonable knowledge of chords and such from some 7-8 years of organ lessons (albeit 30+ years ago) and plenty of off-and-on playing of both keyboards and guitar in the ensuing years... but improvising and playing music with other people is a whole new ballgame to me... and is why I'm trying to get an idea of what this type of playing is all about... and what my options might be.

One thing is that I'm NOT looking at being a professional player here; it's all about doing some recording at home and playing with some mates occasionally... so I don't need to know EVERYTHING (heck, I don't have enough life left to "know everything", if anyone can, I suppose...)... but I want to know a little more than being able to play some "cowboy chords" and to be able to do some lil' "figures" of playing to support what I might play on keyboards and such (think some of Mark Knopfler's 4 or 5 note things he drops into his playing here and there)... although, it would be nice to be a David Gilmour solo-wise at times

Since I got back to playing guitar (since ~2006), I've found the instrument gives me a lot of ideas, more than I got from the keyboard, in terms of progressions, voicings and such... and I guess I want to be able to take that inspiration and DO something with it... but again, I want to understand how and why some of these things work... hence, my trying to get around playing with the modes as well as inversions, leading tones and such.

Heh... I could "quote and comment" a LOT of what you've written.. but that would lead to ANOTHER Pandora's box, methinks ... Enough to say that there's a lot of "ringing bells" going on as I read your postings...

Another example:

I think working on progressions is a great way to start into learning things, put things to use asap instead of trying to learn everything and by rote.

See, for ME, that's the approach I have (heh... I'm an engineer, not a scientist... so I'm about applied maths, not pure maths)... where I'll start with the harmonic structure and use the chord tones, key centre... and of late, scale options (modes, etc) to come up with some figures and melodic lines within the context of the progression... and is why I'm trying to learn the triads, chords and their positions... which will help define the scales, their patterns and forms and their positions on the fretboard; scales and chords, they're all the same thing, really....(!)

Again, many thanks for the info.. a lot of gold in there... and I just need to spend the time to absorb it all


John

[4real]

No problem, thanks. Of course going over things helps me learn too...

I know a lot of people 'roll their eyes' over these kinds of things, take what you can use...plus things have changed for me and my playing over the years...

One thing is that I'm NOT looking at being a professional player here; it's all about doing some recording at home and playing with some mates occasionally... so I don't need to know EVERYTHING (heck, I don't have enough life left to "know everything", if anyone can, I suppose...)... but I want to know a little more than being able to play some "cowboy chords" and to be able to do some lil' "figures" of playing to support what I might play on keyboards and such (think some of Mark Knopfler's 4 or 5 note things he drops into his playing here and there)... although, it would be nice to be a David Gilmour solo-wise at times

Exactly, you only need to know what you need to know for your goals and take one step at a time.

Pentatonics are powerful tools, and I wouldn't want people to get the impression that more notes makes for more goodness...there's plenty of fantastic stuff that is entirely pentatonic.

Here's an example of something masterful...

Nike Campbells guitar line from Tom Petty's "breakdown"...

The progression is Am-G and Am-G-F-G...

the 'line' is...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----10--8--10-------------------------------------10--8---10-------------
------------------9---9--7--9-------------------------------------9--7--9---
---------------------------------7---7--5--7-----------------------------------
------------------------------------------------7---------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you know the notes, you will see the first phrase of 4 notes is the same as the 3rd group of 4 notes. In all, there are only 4notes used in total A,G,E,D...so the Am pentatonic missing the C or third!

Still, a fantastic line...

It also illustrates the idea you raised earlier about using 'leaps'...the real magic in a line is not the 'notes' themselves, though their relation to the progression is important, but the intervals created between the notes. In this line there's a nice recurring leap down of a fourth. A-E E-A A-E

Knophlers lines tend to be based on chord tones and arpeggios, so some chord theory and the kinds of things you are exploring are important things.

...

Less is frequently more. I use a lot of 'small chords' similar to some of knoplers playing and many others.

So, back to your original question, take a string set of three strings and you can find a heap of different triads and parts of other chords and you can see how such groups of notes can be changed in relation to the bass note underneath it.

I frequently use the D,G and B strings and from that you can get such "shapes" as these...

--------------------------------|-------------------------------------------
---5----6----5---5---7---6--|---8-----13----5-------------------------
---5----5----4---6---5---7--|---9-----12----5------------------------
---5----7----5---5---7---7--|--10----14----5-------------------------
--------------------------------|-------------------------------------------
--------------------------------|-------------------------------------------

You can see the first to be C, the root as the middle note so G,C,E. The last three chords I've shown three inversions, different notes as the lower...so, root, 3rd in bass and fifth in bass.

However, you may also see that if you put a C bass note under the first C triad, you have a "c" but put an A note and you get Am7.

The second could be Dm7 with a D below, or an F with an F below...

The third can be a Cmaj7, or a nice Em, or a G6...

The 4th, A7 (no root note), etc...

Anyway, it is easier and cleaner to learn small three or 4 note chords and understand how the same clusters of notes can work in different ways. You will probably recognize these 'shapes' as a part of big old barre chords, but there is no need to play 'big chords' and this is a hallmark of the way knophler plays.

Gilmour is also a player that uses a lot 'modal' kinds of sounds. Less following the changes with arpeggios than a knophler.

Both players are very lyrical and tasteful in their use of material...melodic for what of a better descriptor. Adding some 'modal notes' and getting a handle on these kinds of progressions will get you in that kind of direction.

...

Some progressions are 'special' because they work in ways that you could see as being just naively hacked together (and often they are) or have to make some huge 'analysis' to understand how they are working. Studying songs and melodies and techniques that catch your ear is probably the most powerful tool....a lot of this is just 'listening' really intently.

Examples are things like "dock of the bay" or any number of cropper songs that use exclusively major chords, not ambiguous power chords, but the full triads.

I looked in a thread here about the maj-min change and noted a few songs, 'us and them' was one that I heard this change. Picking out the melody in D I noticed that it avoids the 3rd (f or f#) but something like it could be...makes up progression on the spot...

----2------4-----5-----0-----0----0----------------------------------------------
----3------5-----6-----3-----3----2----------------------------------------------
----2------4-----5-----0-----0----0----------------------------------------------
----0------0-----0-----0-----2----2----------------------------------------------
-------------------------2-----0----0-----------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, you can see that it's just moving the D shape "cowboy chord" around, then to a G with a B in the bass then an A7sus4 move...the V-I in D.

What occurs is D major, but it in the second chord, there's a G# so a "lydian" raised fourth, on the third chord it's now more like Dm7...in the last chord, there's C# but in that minor chord a C.

"The who" also use these kinds of things a lot, pinball wizard and many songs of theirs use a lot of sus4 resolutions that are not "correct' from a tonal standpoint, but fantastic stuff.

The beatles too wrote some fantastic songs, many with highly 'inventive' progressions. I am working on "strawberry fields' for solo guitar at the moment, and it's great how it just shifts around but makes sense on all kinds of levels.

You don't want to get so caught up in 'theory' that you lose the exploration and novelty of such things...so explore, then work out things...or at least, approach things from both sides, know the 'theory' a bit but also allow it to fall aside so you can create and play.

So, I suppose I'm saying, don't be afraid to use pentatonic notes, or as in "breakdown" even less to make great music and ideas. There are plenty of people who can write to 'rules' and it helps to know some before you break them, but the music is often the most rewarding is the stuff that breaks the rules or happens across some clever things in their simplicity. Usually there is a 'reason' for things working of course, but you don't have to know 'everything' and all the names of scales or chords to be effective.

Anyway, sounds like you are on the right track and getting your head around things. Your quoted texts show me that you have grasped the things that are of most importance and this will give you things to work on for ages...I mean, I'm still working on them!