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Post by naturalborn on Aug 20, 2010 15:53:07 GMT -5
This is a rather tough wiring question. I'm trying to wire up a kent armstrong motherbucker (quadrail) to a Japanese style 5 way switch. The pickup config is 1 single coil and 1 quadrail. I have a volume and tone pot.
I saw a review stating this combo:
'Position 2) Single coil blade nearest Bridge. thin tele/strat esque sound, REALLY cutting Position 3) Series wiredSingle Hotrail humbucker (nearest Bridge) resulting in std "Hot rodded" strat sound Position 4) 2 Humbuckers, Individually series wired, but in Parrallel together ...resulting in a fairly normal "hot" humbucking sound Position 5) ALL 4 COILS in series AWESOME!!!'
and I have no idea how to copy that. I'm not inexperienced at wiring but if anyone can give some instructions on how to copy that I'd be very grateful or if anyone has any other 5-way switch combination recommendations I'd be happy to hear.
I was going to copy the usual H/H style combination for the quadrail but I'm not sure how to make all for coils work at once without using all the wires up.
I'd be happy with:
1) Single coil 2) Single coil + 1 coil of the quad 3) 2 coils as a humbucker 4) other 2 as a humbucker 5) all four
if thats easier I'd greatly appreciate any guides, tips or diagrams anyone can offer.
Many thanks
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peterrabbit
Meter Reader 1st Class
My mileage DOES vary
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 20, 2010 19:24:52 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Aug 20, 2010 20:48:26 GMT -5
The import style 5-way switches are constructed differently than the std. Fender versions, but the switch logic is the same. Both are in actuality 3-way switches with 2 intermediate (Pos. 2 and 4) shorting positions. Position 2 always gives some combination of Pos. 1 and 3; Pos. 4 likewise with 3 and 5.
This means what you want isn't possible with a 5-way switch. Would you consider as an alternative using a DPDT switch (could be a Push/Pull pot) to turn the neck SC on or off? You could then use the 5-way solely to control the 4 HB coils. I think that type of scheme might get you a nice range of combinations.
If you're interested, I'll draw something up.
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peterrabbit
Meter Reader 1st Class
My mileage DOES vary
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 20, 2010 21:37:42 GMT -5
SuperSwitch?
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Post by newey on Aug 20, 2010 22:03:54 GMT -5
OK, here's what I was thinking. I assumed the SC was at the neck position. I didn't know the type of SC so the wiring colors may be backwards. I believe the KA colors are correct as shown. I think this will work as advertised, but let's let someone double-check it first.
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Post by naturalborn on Aug 21, 2010 16:26:35 GMT -5
Thanks very much for all the suggestions and even more so for the diagram that has made my week. I'll wire up the 5-way switch first and see how it goes. I'll have drill a hole in for a tiny switch (not a lot of space in electronics cavity). Probably be a day or two before I get time.
I'll let you know how it comes out but that is an awesome combo!
the single coil is just a generic high output one I bought cheap to match the railed look of the quad. The color code for it is the same that ka uses.
cheers again.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 21, 2010 17:02:21 GMT -5
newey - I think theres a few things to fix on that scheme. The quadrail pickup only gets any ground via the upper lug numbered 2, which means no output in positions 1 and 5
Also, just to be clear, that on a switch like that, if the knob is pulled fully to the bottom of the page (bridge), then the two common poles will connect to the upper of their respective lugs, ie, as numbered there, the lower common would connect to its lug numbered 1, and the upper common would connect to its lug numbered 3
In position 3, do you mean (1x2) + (3x4)?
The p/p switch, would switch the single coil on if pushed in. If the upper wire is connected to the other lug (ie directly below on the diagram, nearest the pot case), then it will switch on if you pull it - either way works, its just a choice.
But i think it is a good starting concept for the switching, and can be made to work, giving good options with just the standard 5-way switch instead of a more complex super-switch.
John
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Post by newey on Aug 21, 2010 17:53:24 GMT -5
OK, thanks John. Don't heat up the soldering iron just yet! I think this is the fix:
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Post by naturalborn on Aug 29, 2010 16:01:45 GMT -5
I did the wiring as described in the second diagram. I think I've wired something wrong but thought I'd post just incase theres a larger problem.
I get sound from a couple positions but nothing much (volume is at full). Theres an awful lot of humming like you get before plugging a jack in and thats all I hear from most positions with nothing audiable at all from single coil. The humming stops if I touch the back of the volume pot. I'm assuming I've either messed up the input jack wiring or the volume pot wiring.
There is one wire from the input jack (which has a ground). I've put the live wire from that to the volume middle lug as in the picture, should there be any other wires connecting to it? My other theory is that the volume pot I'm using has its input lug in a different place than usual (its a cts 1 meg)
I'll re-check all my wires as one lug on the volume got a bit messy but most are pretty clean.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 30, 2010 15:53:31 GMT -5
I think the second diagram may need further checking - I only looked at the previous one. We will reply further soon.
John
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Post by newey on Aug 30, 2010 22:03:05 GMT -5
The second diagram may well need some checking, after all my first one was NFG. I'm sorry if you fired up the iron based on a faulty diagram!
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Post by wolf on Aug 31, 2010 2:10:45 GMT -5
Hope I didn't wait too long but I figured I'd redraw that: I can't guarantee it to be error free.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 31, 2010 5:43:41 GMT -5
Wolf - your rendition is helpful, and a basis for further development. I think there may be a few design issues, partly with the switch connections, but also, if it is a Kent Armstrong, they seem to have their own special way to place the usual red, white, green black colours. This would appear to involve, for a standard humbucker, white to ground, black to hot and red/green joined. See this: www.kentarmstrong.com/KA_Wiring_Instructions.pdfI tried to consider the circuit here, but kept getting stuck. I think something like the following might be possible however 1x2 1x2 + 3x4 3x4 3+2 3 So youd get each humbucker, and both togther, plus a bright parallel sound, and a really bright single sound. All with the neck added if wanted. Does it matter that you cant get the neck single on its own? It would be possible to make it so when you pull the neck switch, it creates a setting with neck only in one position, with other settings combined with one of the Hb pairs John
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Post by naturalborn on Aug 31, 2010 10:28:54 GMT -5
ahh cheers again guys! I'm happy with anything that works so the combo suggestion John sounds good to me. It is a kent armstrong, yup. I emailed them about wiring with a 5 way switch to see if they had any suggestions/pointers and they didn't really get back to me.
I'm not worried if can't get the neck pickup on its own. I largely put it in for display purposes.
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Post by wolf on Aug 31, 2010 14:54:28 GMT -5
John H
Wow I didn't even think about checking the pickup wire colors. According to that wiring diagram, I guess the colors should be:
WHITE -
GREEN + RED -
BLACK +
It's weird thinking of Red as minus and Green as plus.
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Post by naturalborn on Sept 1, 2010 18:05:02 GMT -5
just to make sure, on the diagram, where there is a green wire it should it red? or have I misread?
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Post by JohnH on Sept 1, 2010 19:01:30 GMT -5
i suggest awaiting an updated diagram (I have something half done). Meantime, can you figure out which wire colours out of your MB pickup realtes to which coils 1, 2,3, 4? You may have data on it, or, discionnect pickup and touch wire pairs across the end of a guitar cord to an amp, and tap poles lightly with a screw driver to see which are active. Youll get no click when you pick two wires that are not part of a coil pair, a strong click when you tap the correct pole for a wire pair, and maybe a weaker click if you tap the other pole.
John
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Post by naturalborn on Sept 1, 2010 21:57:54 GMT -5
I have this info if it'll help: HB #1, coil 1, red/black = 6.66k ; coil 2, green/white = 6.67k ; together 13.33k HB #2 coil 3, red/black = 6.64 ; coil 4, green/white = 6.82 ; together 13.45 All together in series = 26.7k
thats from a different motherbucker (I'm using the 'cool' version) but it'll be the same wiring just different measurements. I would assume red+black is coil 1 etc as listed but I'll test to verify this.
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Post by wolf on Sept 1, 2010 23:08:11 GMT -5
Diagram redrawn based on these color codes: BLACK + RED - GREEN + WHITE -
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Post by JohnH on Sept 3, 2010 19:27:02 GMT -5
Here is a contribution to the design on this thread. Its a different wiring, but hopefully it works OK On the 5-way switch, the lower half is the main selector, starting with the lever towards the neck, and if the wire colours correspond to this diagram: 1x2 (neck position of 5 way) 1x2 + 3x4 3x4 (middle position of 5 way) In the next position of the switch, the second, upper half of the 5 way comes into play, connecting the middle joined wires of 1 and 2 to hot (black/white), meanwhile the bridge side coils 3 and 4 are getting their middle wires also joined to hot (red/green). The result of all of that is to provide: 2 + 3 – ie the outer coils, in parallel. And since we have one green/white, and one red/black, it should be humcancelling Now in the last position, switch lever nearest to bridge, 1 and 2 are not connected, and we get just coil 3, being the brightest single coil only. I also moved the neck switch lugs, so the neck single comes on when pulled. Risks of this diagram? I think the theory is OK, and the wire pairs come from the manufacturers data. What we don’t really know however, is if 3 and 1 are really white and green as shown here, or are they red and black (as wolfs diagram), or are they one of each? If that is not correct, it should still work, and should still be humcancelling in positions 1 to 4, but in positions 4 and 5, different coils might be coming on. John
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Post by naturalborn on Sept 4, 2010 17:03:01 GMT -5
Woah thanks for that both you guys. Epic stuff.
I'm going to need to order a new switch as one the lugs fell off...new experience for me. I will be sure to test those out as soon as I have the switch.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 4, 2010 17:24:26 GMT -5
OK - I got puzzled by the newey/wolf design, couldn't figure it out, so did my alternative. But newey has told me that his is based on this design which had an Hb and an Sc (in place of the two Hbs that comprise your quad-rail): guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=modules&action=display&thread=3761You can see there that it is based around a standard Fender-style, two-sided, switch - which you could buy if you wish. Based on that, I think I can now see how newey/wolf diagram should work. I think the lower lugs 1 and 3 need to be swapped with each other, and the wires moved with them A watch-it for the in-line switches shown on the diagrams - sometimes the two poles marked 'C' have a permanent link on the switch - youd need to break that, which I think is not difficult Another thing that may emerge with either design - the seperate neck single coil is of unknown phase. The possible outcome is that you swap the two neck wires - not a big deal. John
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Post by newey on Sept 4, 2010 23:27:43 GMT -5
Yeah, as I said, I wasn't too clear on the order of the lugs on that import switch. What John is saying is it should be 3 2 1 C C 3 2 1, instead of 3 2 1 C C 1 2 3. ChrisK's post on Offshore Lever Switches contains the same error, which he noted: I got it backwards, like the spec sheet Chris posted did: JohnH noted: Usually it's just a chunk of bare wire soldered between the two common lugs, desolder it the same as desoldering any other joint. Beware, however, of the dreaded 7-lug import Strat switch, of which we have had a few examples posted. On these the commons are internally connected, making them useless for these purposes (unless one is a true Nut, willing to dismember the switch and scrape the connection off the board )
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Post by naturalborn on Sept 9, 2010 12:19:42 GMT -5
I'm most the way through wiring everything up as shown in John's diagram so I decided to do a very careful quick test as I should at least get noise at this point yet for some reason I'm getting no sound at all. No crazy hum or anything. All the joints are very clean so I'm thinking I may have put something in wrong or one the parts isn't working
The only wire I haven't put on yet is the black wire to the output as I'm a little unsure where that one is going to, I assume its a ground wire to the earth on the output jack?
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 9, 2010 13:10:43 GMT -5
I'm most the way through wiring everything up as shown in John's diagram so I decided to do a very careful quick test as I should at least get noise at this point yet for some reason I'm getting no sound at all. No crazy hum or anything. All the joints are very clean so I'm thinking I may have put something in wrong or one the parts isn't working The only wire I haven't put on yet is the black wire to the output as I'm a little unsure where that one is going to, I assume its a ground wire to the earth on the output jack? It goes to the sleeve of the jack. It ain't ground til it gets to the amp. It is the signal return, for the pickups. There ain't no circuit without it. That is, you need it.
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Post by naturalborn on Sept 9, 2010 17:14:02 GMT -5
In that case, I could put the signal return through a push to make switch to the jack and make an easy killswitch?
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Post by JohnH on Sept 9, 2010 17:25:59 GMT -5
yes - do make sure that the hot output from the volume pot centre lug goes to the jack tip connection, and the barrel connection on the output jack goes to 'ground'. Usually, all the connections indicated with ground symbols are taken to the back of a pot, including the one that connects to the jack, plus another to ground the bridge (not shown here, and not part of the sound circuit, but helps with noise)
Im delighted if you are trying this wiring, I hope it works, so please let us know. There is ample scope for getting lugs and wire colours mixed up in a new design as here, in addition to following the circuit in the building.
For a kill switch, if you want one to make stuttering effects, yes a push to make button is ideal, wired from hot to ground across the output jack. It just shorts out the guitar cord, providing silence.
John
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Post by naturalborn on Sept 10, 2010 12:08:59 GMT -5
The hot output defo goes to the volume centre lug and the barrel is defo at ground but no sound, I've got every wire as described in diagram at present unless I've misread the 5-way switch section (does the lighter/lime green indicate anything?) but if I have misread the 5 way, the single coil should still operate? :S
I haven't tried the killswitch as wanted to make sure everything was working first. The pots are definitely working, turning the pots is varying the slight humming. I'm using cts 1 meg pots, its possible they use a different lug setup than usual maybe I should switch all wires from left lugs with the right lug and visa versa to see what happens?
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Post by newey on Sept 10, 2010 14:17:59 GMT -5
No, not possible. At worst, you'd wire them left-handed, so turning them "up" is counterclockwise (or anti-clockwise, as the Brits say . . .).
What will happen is that the pots will be wired left-handed, assuming they're right-handed now.
You've got a bad connection, I suspect, somewhere along the line. Perhaps some well-focused pix of your wiring may help us sort it out.
Since you are getting no output whatsoever, start with the jack and work your way backwards through the various connections. Do you have a multimeter?
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Post by JohnH on Sept 10, 2010 15:52:15 GMT -5
The short bits of colour on the diagram that I did are just left-overs from the previous Wolf drawing - just ignore them.
Neweys advice is good. If nothing is revealed, I suggest you disconnect the red wire that goes from the 5 way to the pots, so the whole quadrail and 5-way is then not active. Now you should at least be able to get the neck pup going by pulling the push/pull. if not, then youll find the problem soemwhere betwen jack, and pots.
John
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