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Post by busydoingnothing on Sept 22, 2010 15:40:50 GMT -5
Hey guys, I have a Jag-Stang modified with an SD JB at the bridge and a Hot Rails at the neck, so essentially two humbuckers. The pots and switching are still stock.
First, I believe my best bet is to replace the pots with 500K's. What kind of cap should I put on the tone control?
Second, the stock switching doesn't take full advantage of the possible sounds I could get. It has 2x 3-way switches. The question/challenge I pose to you all is, how many possible combos can I get without adding any switches?
I've been reading up on all the variations and my head is spinning. It seems that one switch should just be a basic neck/both/bridge switch. The second a series/parallel/out of phase switch? Push/pull pots for coil tap for each pickup? Is that pretty much what I can do?
Also, I'm somewhat confused about the series/parallel switching. Would that apply ONLY when both pickups are engaged, or would that also apply to the individual pickups? In other words, a couple possible combos would be Neck Series, Neck Parallel, Bridge Series, Bridge Parallel, Both Series, Both Parallel?
For reference, I play in an indie band in the vein of the Pixies and Wilco.
Thanks in advance for your input!
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Post by newey on Sept 22, 2010 21:09:12 GMT -5
bdn- Hello and Welcome to Gnutz2! These are matters of taste, and subject to experimentation. 500K pots will brighten things up a bit; if it's too bright, just turn the tone control down a couple of notches. As far as the cap, I don't know whether "kind of cap" is referring to its construction or capacitance value. Conventional wisdom (that is to say, Gibson . . ) would use a .047µf cap for HBs, but an .033 or .022 would be fine, too. I don't know what the stock value Fender used was, probably .022. As far as construction, I use poly film caps (the "green chiclet" style) just because they're cheap and durable, and seem to be built to tighter tolerances than the ceramic caps. Don't buy into the hype about vintage oil-and-paper caps (aor other expensive types), there's a lot of snake oil being peddled to guitarists out there. . . Although, frankly, if there's nothing wrong with the pots and cap you have, I don't think I would bother changing them. But that's just me. Your stock switching uses 2 DP3T slide switches, one for each pickup, giving On-Off-Out of Phase (OOP) for each pup. There are lots of possibilities therein. First, you don't need 2 phase switches, since putting both pickups out of phase puts them in phase with each other again. You could leave, say, the neck switch as is, allowing you to put the neck pickup on or off, or out of phase with the bridge. The bridge switch could then be rewired to give you both bridge coils in series in one position, both coils in parallel, and both off in the center position. (we'll call this "intra-pickup series/parallel"; normally, HB coils are wired together in series, so the parallel option is the new one) Yes. As I noted, we'll call the 2 coils of one HB as being in "intra-pickup" series, or parallel, and when the coils of both pickups are connected, that would be in "inter-pickup" series or parallel. Currently, when both pickups are on, they're in parallel, so series becomes the "new" sound here. A push/pull pot can be used to do inter-pickup series/parallel. If one or the other HB, or both, can also have a coil split off, then there are additional series/parallel options, inter-pickup. If you don't like or use the OOP sound much, you could eliminate it entirely from both existing switches, and have "Full HB-Off-Coil Split" on each 3-way switch. Or, if you find the "off" positions annoying (given the possibility to turn the guitar off entirely while playing), the 3-way switches could be rewired in other ways- Series HB-Parallel HB-Coil split, for example. Some folks like the "all off" setting, though, for leaving a guitar plugged in onstage, ready to go at the flick of one (or two) switches. That's another possibility, leaving the question of what you do with the other switch. If one switch is to be a pickup selector, then there's not much point to keeping the "off" position on the other, again, unless you want "all off" as an option. I'd say that's a fairly wide vein . . .
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Post by Yew on Sept 23, 2010 10:25:13 GMT -5
bdn- there's a lot of snake oil being peddled to guitarists out there. . . Actually snake oil has been prooven to benifit mice. so if you have a sick pet mouse, just tell it to eat more snakes xD
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Post by busydoingnothing on Sept 23, 2010 17:33:24 GMT -5
newey, thanks for the detailed reply! I guess it's important to figure out what combinations are actually useful and/or unique. For example, would there be a reason why I would want to be able to put the neck (intra-series) in series with the bridge (intra-parallel)? Or put both pickups intra-parallel inter-series?
To answer your question about having an off switch, I don't think it's necessary. I currently just engage my tuner pedal if I want to mute. So that leaves one switch to be used as neck/both/bridge. The other switch and the two push/pull pots are completely open for options, and not knowing enough about what each wiring combo does, I'm not sure what to do with them.
Would it make the most sense to use the two push/pull as a coil tap for each? Then we would have the 3way switch left. What to do, what to do...
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Post by newey on Sept 23, 2010 20:02:49 GMT -5
There are some who like to have all possible tonal variations, so as to have plenty of scope for experimentation. At some point, such schemes become overly "switchy", and can be troublesome for gig use. I think the consensus around here, expressly many times by a good cross-section of members, is that, for the stage, keep the number of selections down to ones you find useful. For fooling around, and for studio use, more complex schemes are OK. Putting the 2 coils of a HB in parallel, rather than the usual series, results in lower output and a brighter, somewhat thinner sound. I use a HB this way quite a bit, especially with clean amp sounds- but for grungier stuff, the coils are beefier in series. Splitting one coil off of the HB gives a SC sound, obviously, but it won't truly mimic a real SC pickup. But it is a useful option to have, although it works best with higher-output HBs. OK, so you want to do something along the following lines: - Lose the "off" settings on both slide switches
- Convert one slide switch into a pickup selector, giving N / N+Br / Br.
- Keep the stock look (which implies keeping the master V & T, although you might consider individual volumes, or a blender)
- Add 2 P/P pots for more combinations
- Use the other slide switch for additional combinations.
Tonal differences between the coils of a HB are generally more noticeable, and more useful, at the bridge pup position. So, my suggestion would be to keep the bridge switching as simple as possible, since you'll probably use those settings more frequently than similar options at the neck position. If it means manipulating both slide switches and pull pots to get a particular sound, better to do so at the neck, where you probably won't be using those options as often. But, again, that's more my personal preference. I would therefore make the neck slide switch into the pickup selector, and wire the bridge slide to control the bridge pup, to give series HB/ parallel HB/ split coil. As I said above, I think that can be done with your slide switches, but I haven't actually drawn that out. Some input from others might be helpful on that. But assuming it can be done, your 3 bridge pup options would be consolidated on one switch. Then, one P/P pots does series/parallel inter-pup; this is only operable when the pickup selector is in the center position. The second P/P pot could do either OOP inter-pup, or perhaps series/parallel for the 2 neck HB coils. The tone control can be wired "Red Rhodes" style to split one of the neck HB coils at "10", if you make it a neck-only tone control instead of a master, and if splitting the neck HB is desired. You asked how to get the most combinations out of that switch array; after thinking some more, the most I can come up with would be to drop the selector switch, and wire each slide switch as I described the bridge one above- series/parallel/SC. The P/P pots would then be wired in "binary tree" fashion to control the pickup selection, giving both pups in series with both p/ps down, both in parallel with the p/ps both up, one up/one down gives the neck alone, other up/other down gives bridge alone. This would give all possible series/parallel combos of 2 HBs, except that we are designating only one coil off of each HB to be split, and so don't have the options with the other coil on each HB. This gives 18 possible combinations.
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Post by busydoingnothing on Sept 24, 2010 15:46:06 GMT -5
newey, thanks again for another detailed reply. It seems like your suggested arrangement at the end of the post would give the most possibilities. If I gather correctly, though, I won't have an out of phase option, would I? Maybe for the neck switch, I could wire the third position as out of phase instead of split? It's a Hot Rails, so a single coil-size humbucker. Would there even be a point to split the coils? It does play pretty hot (it's in the name!), so splitting may brighten it up a bit, yes? Also, with not being able to choose which coil is off, do I really lose much?
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Post by newey on Sept 24, 2010 18:29:23 GMT -5
No OOP. If that's a sound you want (I assume we're talking OOP between N and Br, not intra-HB OOP), then either something else has to go, or you have to add a switch. Unless, of course, you want the N and Br to always be out-of-phase when selected together (The Peter Green mod).
Not much. At the neck, one HB coil will be indistinguishable from the other, sound wise. At the bridge, perhaps a bit of difference, since the bridge position is more sensitive to the small position difference between the 2 coils.
The either/or coil option for a HB is really more useful for maximizing hum-cancelling combos in 3 (or more) pickup guitars. You don't have that problem, you just select the 2 coils to be split so as to be hum-cancelling.
I believe you could do OOP on the neck switch, losing the coil split there.
Yes, a bit brighter, and a bit lower output. I find on the "dual-rail" types, the SC setting is not a whole lot different than the coils in parallel. My pseudo-Esquire has the GFS version of the rails, but it's the "cool rails" version, so maybe the overwound "Hot" coils will be more distinctive.
And, if you have to lose one of the split coil options, keep it at the bridge, IMO, as noted above.
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Post by newey on Sept 24, 2010 18:59:23 GMT -5
Here's the skinny on Binary Tree Switching. I have my P-bass (with hidden neck pickup) wired this way, using 2 P/P pots so as to maintain a stock look. Some folks think the binary tree scheme is too fussy, since to go from neck alone to bridge alone requires 2 separate operations (one pot down, and the other up). Here it is, totally stealth, with the invisible neck pickup under the pickguard, no switches but the 2 P/P pots: I find that, after using it for a while, it's not such a big deal. It's actually pretty handy- if you're playing with just one pickup, you have one of the two pots pulled up. A quick pop with the heel of one's hand, turning that switch "off", turns both pickups on, in series, for a beefy soloing sound. Of course, that's on a bass, which I really don't know how to play very well anyway. But the same would seem useful for a guitar as well.
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Post by wolf on Sept 25, 2010 1:11:08 GMT -5
Just thought I would join this topic to say I am a big fan of "binary tree switching". If anyone has any questions I think I could answer them.
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Post by busydoingnothing on Sept 28, 2010 11:28:14 GMT -5
So let's say I have the two switches wired as:
Neck S/P/OOP
Bridge S/P/Split
Would it be possible to have the OOP position be OOP if both pickups are on (either in series or parallel), and if only the neck pickup is on, have the OOP position be split coil? Or is that not possible?
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Post by wolf on Sept 28, 2010 12:14:16 GMT -5
busydoingnothing I don't think you can wire one switch to be series / parallel / out of phase. I think you'll need a third switch specifically for the out of phase option.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 29, 2010 0:41:11 GMT -5
bdn, The problem is, you've got only three switch positions, so right off the bat, you're gonna have to decide "oop in parallel, or oop in series". You could get all four possibilities with a Tele 4-way switch, but that's not what you're asking for, so we'll not go there just now. Second, the answer to your question about multi-functionality is yes, it can be done, but again, not with your current slide switch(es). It would take a 4P3T switch to do the job, but even then, we're still facing the fact that the oop selection has to be hardwired to work in either series or parallel, you won't be able to have both possibilities available for your listening pleasure. To sum it up, wolf's note about needing another switch is pretty much on the mark. If you're worried about the guitar's appearance, you could always go for a push-pull pot. Or you could use a pair of them, and go really wild Nutz! HTH BTW, Hi, and to the NutzHouse! sumgai
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Post by busydoingnothing on Oct 5, 2010 13:07:33 GMT -5
newey, would you be willing to provide me with a wiring diagram for the configuration below? Or know where I might be able to get a diagram of it?
Push/Pull Pots:
Both Pull: Both pups parallel Both Push: Both pups series Volume Pull/Tone Push: Neck Only Tone Pull/Volume Push: Bridge Only
Switches: (from top-down view, so neck/mid/bridge) Neck Switch: Series/Parallel/OOP Bridge Switch: Series/Parallel/Coil Tap
I guess before I do any of this...do you think that the number of possible combinations is somewhat impractical, and that maybe I should limit them?
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Post by busydoingnothing on Oct 5, 2010 13:07:53 GMT -5
Also, where should I order the pots and cap from?
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Post by newey on Oct 5, 2010 13:56:49 GMT -5
BDN-
I'll be happy to do a diagram, but it may be a few days befor eI can get to it. Work intrudes.
The p/p pots, in binary tree fashion, is exactly what I have on the Pbass, so that module is done- I'll dig up the link to it. So only really need to do the other switches.
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Post by busydoingnothing on Oct 6, 2010 9:45:08 GMT -5
newey, thanks! I really appreciate it. No rush at all; I won't be ordering new parts until next week. Where do you suggest I purchase the pots and caps from? I figure I should get a couple different caps (if they're cheap enough) to find the right one, unless you can suggest what cap (both brand and capacitance value) to get.
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Post by newey on Oct 6, 2010 18:44:39 GMT -5
Caps are cheap enough that buying several to experiment is quite a good idea. The testing can be done external to the guitar, and then the appropriate value soldered into place.
I would think covering a capacitance range of, say, .060µf to .01µf would give a good range of potentially-useful values. In between those 2 extremes, .047, .033, and .022 cover most of the values used by guitar manufacturers.
I don't worry about the type of capacitor overly much, and I care even less about the brand name. I defy anyone, in a true blindfold test, to be able to reliably (and repeatably) discern a difference between two different brands of the same value cap.
I usually use the poly film type caps, but I have used ceramic ones in the past.
As far as suppliers, check the suppliers listings on our links page, in References. Large electronics supply houses like Mouser and Digi-Key will beat the guitar website prices on most stuff, and they have a much larger selection. I've ordered form both those places and had good experiences with both. I'm sure the others listed there are OK, too; the ones I mention are the larger outfits.
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Post by newey on Oct 6, 2010 20:50:38 GMT -5
OK, let's approach this in a modular fashion. I'll post the modules, we'll give others time to double-check my often-questionable work. Your job is to integrate the modules into a single wiring diagram. There willl be 3 modules. The first is the P/P pot binary-tree switching to control the inter-pup combos. The other two are the neck S/P/OOP switch and the bridge S/P/SC switch. The first one is easy, straight out of my P-bass wiring scheme. The wires that say they are from the hot and ground of the pickups will actually be coming in from the Neck and Bridge switches, respectively. Also note that the black wire to the jack goes to the sleeve of the jack- it went a bit long and I forgot to correct it, so it looks like it's wired to the center of the hole . . . I'll draw up the other 2 modules when I get the time.
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Post by busydoingnothing on Nov 2, 2010 11:38:02 GMT -5
Hey newey, just curious, have you had a chance to draw up the other diagrams? I'm probably going to get the parts within the next two weeks. That would be awesome if you got around to it. No problem if you can't; I know how busy everything can get. Thanks!
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Post by newey on Nov 2, 2010 19:59:36 GMT -5
Here's module #2- the Bridge pickup series/SC/parallel switch. I didn't need to draw this, I just lifted it- courtesy of Unklmickey. No need to reinvent the wheel on that one. The neck one is tougher, I don't know that I can get a diagram for that, and I haven't really figured out how to do that yet . . . The wires marked "Br ground" and "Br hot" are the hot and ground coming from the switch in module #2. In module 2, the "hot" line is shown as the upper outgoing wire, ground is the lower. The 2 coils in module #2 represent the 2 coils of your Br HB. Your mission is to combine the modules into a unified diagram. Two caveats: First, since the diagrams are from different sources, you'll need to correlate the modules with your wire colors. Second, if it's the other coil you want in the SC position, the diagram will need to be rejiggered. I'll work on the neck module soon. EDIT: After posting the above, I remembered we were talking slide switches- so the above won't work for you, sorry. I will have to draw this out. As far as the neck pickup, wolf and sumgai are right, the existing slide switch won't cut it. Slide switches with more poles do exist, but I suspect they're probably physically bigger than the stock ones. You may have to rethink the OOP or resign yourself to a separate phase switch.
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Post by newey on Nov 2, 2010 21:44:11 GMT -5
OK, this, I think, works for module #2, series/SC/parallel. Only problem is the S coil is left hanging from hot in the SC position. Let's let someone vet this and perhaps come up with a better solution.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 5, 2010 21:24:06 GMT -5
Newey – I had a look a module 2 above, and I think the diagram is basically fine, for use with these 3-position slides switches, which successively join adjacent pairs of the 4 lugs on each side.
The hanging from hot can be fixed by making sure that the selected single coil, is the one that has the permanent hot connection. Ie, on the diagram, the upper output wire (currently green) becomes the hot wire, and the lower one is ground. Doing that, as currently coloured, would be reverse phased wrt normal practice.
If the desired single coil is the south coil, swap green with red and black with white If the desired single coil is north, swap green with black and red with white
see how those look
John
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Post by busydoingnothing on Jan 7, 2011 14:42:48 GMT -5
Hey newey, it's been a while, but I finally ordered the push/pull pots and they're on their way. I'm thinking of getting another toggle switch so I can just have a dedicated in phase/out of phase switch. So the schematic would change as such that the binary tree remains the same, both pickup switches would have the same function (parallel/split/series), and the toggle switch would could phase (maybe in phase/all off/oop?). What kind of switch would I need for that?
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Post by newey on Jan 7, 2011 21:26:34 GMT -5
OK, busydoingnothing, here goes nothing! I think this will work as intended. The phase switch is on the neck pickup and is a DPDT On-On type. You could use a DPDT On-Off-On which would turn the neck pickup off, but there's no way to do an "all off" in the center position without at least a 3P switch- and I'm not sure a 3PDT On-Off-On even exists. And having a center position to just turn off the neck is redundant as you can turn it off with the P/Ps. Also, a caveat. I have redrawn this as JohnH noted to select the North coil on both HBs; that is, both slide switches are wired identically. To get one of the pickups to select South in SC mode (for humcancelling), rewire one slide switch as JohnH lays out above. You may need to test the magnetic polarity, since you're using 2 different models of pickup, even though they're the same brand. And, as always with my diagrams, let's let someone vet it before you fire up the soldering iron. EDIT: Dang, now that I look at it, I realize I didn't get the hanging from hot issue corrected.
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Post by busydoingnothing on Jan 8, 2011 13:26:37 GMT -5
Awesome! Thanks for coming up with it so quickly! I just ordered the remaining parts that I needed.
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Post by busydoingnothing on Jan 18, 2011 13:06:24 GMT -5
Can anyone else confirm that newey's wiring is good to go? I should have the parts all in this week and will likely get down to it this weekend. Thanks in advance!
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Post by JohnH on Jan 18, 2011 17:18:54 GMT -5
To help check it, could we have a list of which settings are intended v switch positions?
J
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Post by busydoingnothing on Jan 18, 2011 17:39:06 GMT -5
Hey John, the switching should function as follows (and newey can confirm, mainly the binary tree p/p):
3-way switches: Changes the associated humbucker between Parallel/Split/Series 2-way toggle: In Phase/Out of Phase Binary Tree p/p: "Both pups in series with both p/ps down, both in parallel with the p/ps both up, one up/one down gives the neck alone, other up/other down gives bridge alone."
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Post by newey on Jan 18, 2011 20:58:29 GMT -5
Actually, both P/P up is series, both down is parallel. Tone P/P up, Vol P/P down gives neck only (with the bridge hanging from hot . . .). Vol P/P up, tone down gives bridge only. If the opposite is wanted, the wiring is just flipped vertically on both P/Ps. BDN- Note that on a P/P pot, with the knob down, the lugs furthest away from the pot are connected to the center lugs. The slide switches, L to R as shown, should give Series/ South Coil/ Parallel. I believe I said the North coil earlier; using SD wiring colors (Gr= South Start, Red = SF, Black= NS, White= NF) it should be the South coil that's selected on both slide switches. As I said, you may wish to vary one of the two. Also note that, for convenience of drawing, the colored wires do not emerge from the pickup in the above-paired order. Hope that wasn't too confusing. And I hope I didn't reverse the phase in the process.
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Post by JohnH on Jan 19, 2011 1:30:17 GMT -5
OK, diagram seems fine, subject to adjusting for humcancelling when both single are selected, and reduction of hanging from hot issues. But I think as drawn, apart from those subtleties, it should work!
J
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