Space Ace
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Post by Space Ace on Oct 4, 2010 0:05:40 GMT -5
Hello GuitarNutz. I need some help with a crazy wiring idea that I have. This uses one humbucker. I used the DiMarzio pickup colors in the diagram. I know that there are some wires missing (on the phase switch for one, and ground wires) and some may not be right. I used a lot of different colors in the diagram so I could keep everything straight. I'm hoping some of you gurus can fix any errors and fill in the missing parts before I fire up the iron. Oh, and before anybody suggests it, yes I realize that I can use push/pull pots and/or concentric pots to save space, but I don't want to. This circuit will be going in a cheap guitar that will be used to demo the various sounds and I would like it wired with as many switches as I have in the diagram so there is no guessing as to what does what. I also know that some of these sounds may not be very useful with just one humbucker, but I want to hear them for myself. After I hear the sounds I like, I may put them in a different guitar with push/pulls or concentrics. A bit further explanation about some of the stuff in the diagram: sw1: series/parallel sw2: phase sw3: coil cut note: I would like this wired so that in coil cut mode, sw2 acts as a coil selector. I've seen it wired different ways so I'm not sure if my diagram is right sw4: varitone inductor tap, not sure if this can actually be done, what I would like to do is cut the inductor in half (like a coil cut on a humbucker), I'm pretty sure I saw a diagram somewhere where it was done like this. If it can't be done, then it can be changed so it can take the inductor in or out of the circuit sw5: killswitch, always in the circuit no matter what is taken out by other switches sw6: bypass pots, flipping this switch takes out p1, p2, p3, p4, and sw4. It has no effect on sw1, sw2, sw3, or sw5. This is like the "solo switch" on Wolf's site sw7: 4pdt, flipping this switch overrides sw1, sw2, & sw3 but has no effect on anything else. This will instantly give you the full power series out of phase sound. This was borrowed from a diagram on Mike Lindskold's (from Stew Mac) old site. He called it a "blower" switch note: when sw6 & sw7 are both activated, it eliminates every switch and pot from the circuit except for sw5, so you get humbucker--sw5--output jack only p1: volume p2: tone, wired to varitone and can alter the different settings like a normal tone control p3: midrange, based on the one that Torres Engineering sells. If the inductor on sw4 can be cut in half as described earlier, can the inductor on this pot also be cut and produce different sounds, or would the sounds not be all that different? I've never tried this midrange control but it sounds interesting. p4: varitone If anybody has any other suggestions to add to this crazy circuit, I am all ears, as long as it doesn't require adding batteries to the circuit. Also, do I need to ground the mini toggles, and if I do, how do I do it, solder a wire to the side of the switch? I've never used them before. Thank you!
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Post by gitpiddler on Oct 4, 2010 1:19:45 GMT -5
Welcome Ace-my eyes are too tired to look yet, ambitious first post! I just got off a 11-hr. shift. More later. Git out;)
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Post by newey on Oct 4, 2010 5:43:40 GMT -5
Space Ace-
Hello and Welcome!
I, too, haven't had time yet to trace through this. But we'll get it vetted before you fire up the iron.
I don't see how SW4 is doing anything. The center pole of the switch connects to one leg of the inductor, but the other leg is disconnected.
But you're definitely off to an ambitious start!
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 4, 2010 14:00:06 GMT -5
IF the inductor has three wires (including the center tap) AND you've illustrated one outside and the center wire AND the third wire goes somewhere meaningful (ground?) AND that's an SPDT toggle THEN that switch will work.
If you really want to do the phase flip, you can't have that green wire permanently grounded. Likewise, the red wire can't always go to hot. The phase switch decides which goes where.
Coil shunting only works in series mode. In parallel, it will cause silence. It's gonna be tough getting that switch to work in both modes.
Have you considered a 4-way switch to do Series/Parallel/One Coil/Other Coil? This could be either a rotary, or a Baja Tele style blade switch.
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Oct 4, 2010 14:18:14 GMT -5
Is there a time limit to this, that if we don't beat, a wombat that was implanted in our brain will wake up and start digging around?
Inall seriousness, I like the idea, but I am limited to an iPod touch for Internet access for a couple weeks. Personally, I like the idea of tons of switches. Alto of the more compact designs confuse me
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Space Ace
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Post by Space Ace on Oct 4, 2010 20:40:57 GMT -5
ashcatlt: the inductor has three wires or "prongs" (actually has three per side, one side is labeled "P" which is the side I think I need to use), and switch sw4 is spdt, so would I put one outer wire of the inductor to one outer lug on the switch, the center tap wire to the other outer lug on the switch, and the third (other outer) wire to ground?
About the phase flip, were you referring to the green wire going from sw1 to p1? Should I just eliminate this wire?
I don't want to use a 4-way switch, I'd like to get this to work with dpdts.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 4, 2010 21:32:11 GMT -5
Your inductor is a transformer. P is for primary with the other side being the secondary. Use the side with the inductance you need. You understood what I was saying on the wiring of that switch. I'm not sure that you've got the inductor/tone pot/varitone wired correctly, but if you want to tap the inductor, this is one way to do it. Another (possibly better for noise reasons?) would be to put one outside wire on the middle of the switch with the blue wire from the pot, the center tap on one of the outside switch lugs, and the other outside wire from the inductor to ground. This will leave one of the switch lugs empty, and will short the "top" of the inductor, exactly the same way you're trying to do the coil cut.
I was referring to that green wire yes. This should go between p1 and one of the center lugs on sw2. While you're at it, you could remove the grey wire from sw3 to p1 and replace it with a jumper between sw3 and that same middle lug on sw2 where you're putting the green wire. This will let the phase switch choose the coil to which you're splitting, as requested, but still only in series mode.
The yellow wire from sw2 to sw7 is also a problem for the same reason the green wire needs to move. Move this to the other middle lug on sw2.
I can't see a way to make sw3 changes it's function in parallel mode without adding poles to at least one of the other switches.
sw5, 6, 7 all seem fine.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 4, 2010 21:50:06 GMT -5
Ack, just noticed a couple other things.
1 - Moving the green wire, as I've suggested, makes sw2 actually work, but... When sw7 is flipped to "override mode", sw2 disconnects the HB's ground connection and will act as a noisy kill switch. I think sw7 will need another pole to avoid this action.
2 - Snip the purple wire between sw1 and sw3 and move the black wire between sw7 and sw1 to the place on sw1 where the purple was. Doesn't fix the parallel coil cut issue, but otherwise your "parallel" position will be silent because 3 of the 4 pickup wires go to the same place, and the 4th is not connected.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 4, 2010 22:05:22 GMT -5
Okay, wait! I think I figured out how to fix the whole sw2 issue AND reduce sw7 to a DPDT.
Run the red wire from the pickup directly to where you've got it on sw1. Move the orange wire from sw7 to where I told you (a couple posts up) to put the yellow wire on sw2.
sw7 now overrides sw1 and sw3. sw2 will end up changing the absolute polarity of the whole humbucker, but both positions should sound exactly the same when in override mode. Really, it won't sound any different in any other mode either, except that it switches which coil gets cut in series mode.
That's a bunch of little things, ask for clarification if you need it.
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Space Ace
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Post by Space Ace on Oct 4, 2010 23:03:11 GMT -5
Thanks for your help ashcatlt. I think I got it right according to your corrections: One thing I noticed though, now when you use sw7 to go into override mode, the red wire from the pickup is not connected. Will the pickup work?
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 4, 2010 23:12:06 GMT -5
Well, you'll need to connect the yellow wire to the orange, or you get nothing at all in override mode. Yes, as I said, we've just eliminated half of sw7.
Maybe we can use it in place of sw1 so that sw3 doesn't kill the thing in parallel mode?
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Post by wolf on Oct 4, 2010 23:34:45 GMT -5
You and Space Ace have done considerable work in analyzing this circuit. Anyway, since you mentioned Series / Parallel / One Coil and other coil, there is another way to do this and here it is www.1728.com/guitar10.htmYes, I suppose this could also be done by using a Seymour Duncan Triple Shot ... if you are willing to part with $30.
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Space Ace
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Post by Space Ace on Oct 5, 2010 20:42:27 GMT -5
Hmmmmmm.......ok now I'm lost. I searched for Lindskold's site to see if there was more info on the switch since thats where the idea came from, but the site is gone. Luckily I had saved the page a while ago. Here's his drawing using the 4pdt: And here's the text that went with it: Too Many Switches! Some switch happy options for Strat type guitar & a 4PDT that'll drive you to the edge... Silliness: The diagram below is for use with three humbuckers, three DPDT on/off/on switches, and one 4PDT. The three on/off/on mini toggles allow you to select the pickups as series linked humbucking, off, or parallel linked humbucking. The 4PDT is wired as a blower switch and will override any setting on the three mini toggles to bridge pickup series linked.Even More Silliness: If you really want to go full on switch happy, here are a few ideas. Use three on/on/on DPDT switches instead of the on/off/on's. That will give you series/split/parallel wiring for all three pickups. Next, send the output of the middle pickups' on/on/on switch (lug 3 is ground, and lug 6 is hot) to a push/pull pot tone control wired for phase switching. Then, take the output from the phase switch and the neck and bridge pickups on/on/on's to a standard five position Strat switch. The output of the 5-way is sent to lug 12 on the 4PDT. Whew, what a mess of wires! Are you confused yet? This set-up will allow you to decide if each pickup is series linked humbucking, coil cut, or parallel linked humbucking. You will be able to switch the pickups in the 2 and 4 positions on the Strat switch to either in or out of phase. Any combination can be vanquished to voluminous bridge humbucker at the flick of the blower. Look out Mad Max!!! The Ultimate In Flicker Madness: Use another push/pull pot for the volume control to direct the hot output of the neck pickup. Wire the push/pull so that it will send the hot signal directly to lug 12 of the 4PDT or to the neck pickups input on the 5-way. This will give you two additional positions; neck and bridge, very Tele, or all three pickups on at once. Utterly unexpurgated lunacy...Maybe that can help a bit. His used three humbuckers, where mine uses one, but he had the other switching options like series/parallel, phase, and coil cut. Maybe his diagram was wrong? I'm so confused!
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Space Ace
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Post by Space Ace on Oct 5, 2010 23:31:11 GMT -5
Ok, I took another stab at it. Does this look like it will work? Again, in one position it doesn't affect sw1, sw2, or sw3. In the other position it goes to series out of phase, and the output goes to the bypass/solo switch.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 6, 2010 8:46:50 GMT -5
You put that purple wire back. When sw1 is flipped toward the bottom lugs three of the four wires of the pickup go to the same place and the fourth goes nowhere. Ungood.
When sw2 is flipped toward the bottom lugs and sw7 is flipped toward the top, the green wire goes nowhere. Ungood again.
You were very close the last time, except for the change I mentioned where you connect the yellow and orange wires and have the option of using a DPDT for sw7.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 6, 2010 11:08:42 GMT -5
It really kinda bugs me when sometimes we get a person (especially a new user) who comes along and posts a request for help with a very specific wiring they want to try and then a bunch of folks come in giving all kinds of suggestions for other things they could do without giving the original request a fair shake.
For that reason, and because I found it an interesting challenge, I’ve spent quite a number of characters attempting to get as close to what you want as possible. Unfortunately, I think we’re finding that the constraints you’ve specified here are impeding our progress. Is this designed around parts you already have, or have already ordered and are awaiting delivery?
The first thing is that the solution I’ve put forward is set up in such a way that sw7 will not override sw2. I think we can fix that with a little jostling of sw7, but I also don’t think it’s a big deal. This sw2 is only really selecting which coil gets cut when sw3 is flipped, and even then only when sw1 is in series mode. Which brings us to the bigger issue.
I can not find a way to get sw3 to stop acting as a kill switch in parallel mode! Even if we accept that sw2 will always be in circuit, and move the 4P switch, I still don’t think we can make it work. Maybe if we had extra poles on both sw1 and sw3, but that’s getting to be a bit much. You haven’t expressed any concern re: this situation, but it bugs the heck out of me. It’s exactly the kind of “surprise” dead spot that we try to avoid around here. I know this is meant just for experimentation, but might it not be nice if it was as functional as possible in case you do want to use it in a live situation, or even transplant the circuit to something more permanent?
I did suggest that 4-way switch which you didn’t like. I can understand that. They can be kind of fiddly, and it’s hard to decide on a truly intuitive switching order. I think maybe we should take another look at what wolf posted. Here’s the link, so you don’t have to scroll for it.
What he’s got there is a 3-way switch – it could be a Tele switch, a Gibson toggle, but I figure you’d prefer a DPDT (on-on-on) – which selects One Coil/Parallel/Other Coil. Then there’s a DPDT (on-on) wired to act as a “series override” – no matter what the 3-way is doing, it’s forced to both coils in series. We could easily tack a phase switch onto this.
We could also use the 4P to override all three of these switches if you really want, but I don’t think it would be necessary, since it would be mostly redundant with the (on-on) switch which already does most of the override thing you want. Yes the phase switch would still be active in any position of the other switches, but as I said above I don’t think that’s a big deal.
You’re aware, of course, that aside from selecting which coil gets cut in your current iteration the phase switch will make no noticeable difference in the sound of this circuit? The only time it will ever make any change is when you’re playing through some relatively high gain, sustaining a note, and getting some reinforcement (resonant string feedback) from the amplifier. In this case, flipping the phase switch while holding the note might cause the amplifier to suppress the fundamental of the note, causing it to break off into feedback on some harmonic of the original note. This could be cool, but I think has fairly limited application, and certainly doesn’t warrant going to all this trouble to bypass it.
FWIW.
Edit - We'll need to change wolf's diagram (we're talking about the bottom one on that page) just a little to accomodate a DPDT (on-on-on) rather than the Gibson toggle he's illustrated. It's a simple thing, though.
Also, I guess the phase switch might do some interesting things if you had a delay or loop pedal going...
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Post by JohnH on Oct 6, 2010 14:44:53 GMT -5
just a thought on sw3, related to stopping it acting as a kill switch in parallel mode.
Based on the diagram in reply 9, if the white wire from sw3 was moved to connect to the yellow link wire across the top lugs of sw1, then the coil cut would only happen in series mode, and sw3 would do nothing in parallel mode.
If wanted, the other side of sw3 could then be used to cut the connections for the disused coil, so then it could be coil cut in both series and parallel.
John
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 6, 2010 19:03:59 GMT -5
JohnH, that's a good catch! It would mean we'd have to choose a coil to split to in parallel. We wouldn't be able to choose the single coil with the phase switch. Also, would it not leave the disconnected coil hanging from hot when the phase was flipped?
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Post by wolf on Oct 6, 2010 19:16:57 GMT -5
Okay, I believe a good way to solve the series/parallel coil-cut switching is with (yes my idea) I think a phase switch could be put in there, and I'll draw it if somone wants to see it.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 6, 2010 19:21:35 GMT -5
Both wolf and SpaceAce reported that this thread was locked or they were unable to post here. While it is entirely too easy for me to accidentally lock a thread on this board, especially on this iPhone where there's a fine line between scrolling and clicking, I never saw it as locked, and have had no trouble posting here. More interesting, JohnH's reply above is timestamped after the PM I got from wolf.
I went ahead and locked it and then unlocked it in hopes that it will clear up the issues. Please don't hesitate to PM if you continue to have issues and we'll call in the big guns.
I want to re-iterate that I did not intentionally lock this thread. Sorry for any inconvenience.
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Post by newey on Oct 6, 2010 19:57:14 GMT -5
wolf PM'd me and I unlocked it at about 7:00pm EST. I assumed it was inadvertently locked by JohnH since he was the last poster when I saw it locked- but if wolf's PM to Ash was before that, some bizarreness is going on. Let's keep our eyes peeled, if it happens again, I'll go prostrate myself on the altar of the ProBoards Tech Staff. EDIT:( . . .where's my slapping-side-of-head smiley?) Staff members have the ability to post to locked threads. This explains Ash and JohnH being able to post but not wolf or SpaceAce. Staff should however still see the little padlock icon on locked threads.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 6, 2010 20:12:22 GMT -5
Well, maybe I did accidentally lock it. Last time I touched it was when I posted this morning. I posted that from my laptop, so I can't blame the phone.
I'm terribly sorry and quite embarrassesd if it was my fault.
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Post by wolf on Oct 7, 2010 1:33:00 GMT -5
Okay, I decided to draw a little more: Among other things, this will eliminate the need for a coil cut switch because this yields all four possible combinations: series/parallel/ and either coil. I know the phase switch puts it out of phase with itself (a rather lousy sound I think) but since you wanted a phase switch I didn't know how else to wire it. The volume and tone controls could be easily bypassed by what I call a "solo switch". The inductor switch is an interesting idea. If you can't find a center tapped inductor, then you could try wiring 2 separate inductors as if they are a humbucking pickup. For example, if you have 2 one Henry humbuckers, you could get values of .5, 1 and 2 Henries. Well those are my ideas for the moment.
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Post by wolf on Oct 9, 2010 2:35:11 GMT -5
Well, I figured I'd take that one step further farther more distanter and came up with this: I know I have made several changes but I hope they were all for the better. I also know there could be several problems such as two tone controls that are always active. Anyway, I figured I'd toss this out and see what you'd think. By the way, is Space Ace still locked out of this thread? (I mean he hasn't made a post since when? ... the Renaissance?)
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Post by newey on Oct 9, 2010 7:31:59 GMT -5
No one should be locked out anymore. Members can't be locked out individually, it's all or nothing, except for staff members.
Have we ever had any reports on whether this mid-range control w/ inductor thing works decently? I mean, I know what Torres' marketing copy says, but beyond that?
This is supposed to be a mid-scoop kind of thing, right? I recall that when ozboomer did his mod with treble and bass cut controls, I speculated whether combining both of those on a single dual-gang pot would give one a mid-gate effect, but that would be the opposite of what's happening here, right?
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bassxtreme
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Post by bassxtreme on Oct 20, 2010 15:09:30 GMT -5
to remedy that thin almost inaudible sound when the humbucker is out of phase in parallel mode, you can substitute the (-) negative wire jumper with a small value capacitor.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 20, 2010 20:23:17 GMT -5
While I haven't tried it, the HOoP thing at least sounds like a good idea when applied to two separate pickups. I'm not sure how effective it'll be in the context of the two coils of a humbucker. Sure, it'll keep the low frequencies which are not passed by the cap from canceling, but all those freqs which do pass the cap will still cancel almost completely. I'd expect it to sound a whole lot like splitting the HB to one coil and then turning down the Tone control. There might be some few random harmonics of very high frequencies which sneak through, but I'm guessing that'll just sound annoying.
If we reduce the cap size in order to reduce the range of cancelled frequencies, we head toward the same sound we would get from simply splitting to an SC.
My MiniStrat allows me to put the middle HB OoP with itself, and it gets extremely quiet from a string sensing perspective, and pretty noisy from a noise perspective. I haven't tried it more than a couple times, and not recently, but there really wasn't anything redeeming about it. Granted, that's an SC-sized HB in the middle position. A full-sized HB at the bridge might not cancel so completely. I guess anything's worth trying, and caps are cheap, but don't get your hopes up too high.
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bassxtreme
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Post by bassxtreme on Oct 21, 2010 1:54:51 GMT -5
While I haven't tried it, the HOoP thing at least sounds like a good idea when applied to two separate pickups. I'm not sure how effective it'll be in the context of the two coils of a humbucker. Sure, it'll keep the low frequencies which are not passed by the cap from canceling, but all those freqs which do pass the cap will still cancel almost completely. I'd expect it to sound a whole lot like splitting the HB to one coil and then turning down the Tone control. There might be some few random harmonics of very high frequencies which sneak through, but I'm guessing that'll just sound annoying. If we reduce the cap size in order to reduce the range of cancelled frequencies, we head toward the same sound we would get from simply splitting to an SC. My MiniStrat allows me to put the middle HB OoP with itself, and it gets extremely quiet from a string sensing perspective, and pretty noisy from a noise perspective. I haven't tried it more than a couple times, and not recently, but there really wasn't anything redeeming about it. Granted, that's an SC-sized HB in the middle position. A full-sized HB at the bridge might not cancel so completely. I guess anything's worth trying, and caps are cheap, but don't get your hopes up too high. I guess it depends on what sounds you are looking for. I put the cap on a phase switch on a 2 humbucker bass. I like it because I can combine the sound with the other humbucker thats in phase. If I really wanted to go nuts I could install a rotary switch to select different caps for the phase switch ;D
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 21, 2010 10:06:52 GMT -5
Right, but that's changing the phase relationship between the two HBs, isn't it? It's not between the coils of one of them?
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bassxtreme
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Post by bassxtreme on Oct 21, 2010 11:50:02 GMT -5
Right, but that's changing the phase relationship between the two HBs, isn't it? It's not between the coils of one of them? I forgot mention I have 2 phase switches installed. one switch puts one humbucker out of phase with the other. the other phase switch (with the cap) puts one humbucker out of phase with itself. I modded the bass with wolf's (1728.com) brilliant 7 way switching and took it step further. I also added an onboard Nelson B1 buffer to boost frequencies that might be lost in the cable
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