bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 4, 2010 17:47:13 GMT -5
My house was taken by a fire on thanksgiving 2009, with it went a gang of precious instruments. When I visited my local music shop with the news, I was shown to this nice piece from the back of the building. I reckon it to be a 60's model "V-6". So here I am with this free guitar, one with personality, and I have never really rewired a guitar before. I have a steady soldering hand, and am moderately experienced in electronics. Photos of the guitar, and its workings can be found here. . . s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff451/sweetephemera/Guyatone/Contents of wiring -Two, Single Coil pick ups -One, 500kΩ potentiometer -One, 100kΩ Potentiometer -Two, 2-way on/off switches -One, 1/4 inch input I just need to know how this thing should look when it is appropriately wired. I can't figure out what the independent function for each separate knob and switch. I'd like to get this guitar back in use. I'll be updating with any progress. If any additional information is required, let me know.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2010 0:40:33 GMT -5
Badtear- Hello and Welcome to GNutz2! Sorry to hear of the loss of your guitars (and house, etc.) Add to your parts list: One capacitor (the green item between the 2 pots.) The pickguard is already wired, so rewiring it should present no big problems. The 100K pot is your tone pot, the 500K pot is your volume. Each switch turns one of the pickups on and off. Your problem is that, rather than desoldering the switch, someone appears to have snipped the pickup wires at the pickups. Is there any wire protruding from the pups at all? If not, it may be a whole lot easier to replace them than to try to dismember them to reattach the wires. First, however, you should decide whether the vintage nature of this piece calls for a restoration, or whether you just want it playable and value be damned. I don't know whether these old Guyatones are worth anything or not, but you might want to check that out before doing any wholesale modifications. BTW, those big globs of solder on the pots indicate that this was rewired at some point, and in a ham-handed fashion, it appears.
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bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 5, 2010 7:53:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the direction, newey. There was a soldering job. . . If you can call it that. I let a friend get hold of it when he claimed to know how to get it up again. As you can see, it turned into a single shiny sculpture on the 100K pot. So for the pups, assuming that is slang for pick ups, I would like to the ones that are there to stay. Is there a thread or site, that can tell me what I need to do to keep them in the equation? Only one seems to have a protruding wire, but I have no way of knowing whether it is wired all the way through. Where will the wire from the pick up go once it is restored, and then how do I wire in the 1/4 in Female? Value can very well be damned on this guitar. I am going to be playing, so I am going to set it to my liking. There is also what i take to be a ground wire coming from the tailpiece, where will that go? The value of this guitar is unknown to me. I've found that the value of any Guyatone guitar is variable. The one record of this "V6" was found on the "vintaxe" website. www.vintaxe.com/cgi-bin/vintaxe_viewer.pl?guitar_guitarcoolviolin&japanese_guitar_guitarcoolviolinas you can see, my V6 is without its elevated pick guard. Ebay has a listing for the 4 string bass version going for 480 OBO. But money is no concern to me, I have never sold a guitar but once, and that was to an Indonesian boy, and the price was 35 dollars. Does anyone on this website know anything about wiring in tube radio amps? PS, will I need a capacitor transplant on this? I have never wired a guitar before this one
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2010 8:44:47 GMT -5
Probably, but it's best you post any questions about that under "amps". Let's stick to your guitar here. Look at the image of the back of the controls. On the left-hand switch, as seen in the photo, there is a red wire soldered to the lower-left hand lug. That's the hot wire for one of the pickups. The other switch just has a blob of solder on the corresponding lug; the other pickup's hot went there. The "not hot" wire from each goes to the back of a pot, and so to ground. That's your string ground, and it goes to the back of one of the pots along with all the other grounds. The ground wire from the output jack (the "sleeve" connection) is likewise grounded. The "tip" connection of the jack will be wired to the lower lug of the volume pot- there is what looks like a white wire there already, that was probably the jack connection. As for the pickups, I've never had to do this before, and I'd await someone who has more experience with rewiring pups to weigh in. But, basically, you will need to remove the covers off of the pickups (without destroying them), locate the two wires on each one that represent the ends of the coils, and attach new wires (make them long enough to reach the controls when installed!) If the pickups have a solid mass of epoxy or wax around the coils, your frustration factor increases 1000%. With the age of these pickups, it is highly likely that you will find that the "ground" (in quotes because it's really the "signal return") is internally wired to the baseplate. If so (and if the connection looks good), one half of your problem is solved- just solder a ground wire to the baseplate. That leaves the "hot" connection to be fished out and reconnected. If you can gain access to the wires, you should check with a multimeter to see that these pups are working before you go to the trouble of rewiring them. There was probably a reason someone pulled this apart to begin with . . . If you get no signal out of the pups, you're looking at completely rewinding them, which is exponentially more complex a task. These may not be a standard size pickup, so finding replacements may not be so easy. I would also look to replace the pots. If they work at all, they are likely to be quite scratchy given their age. And the soldering job they underwent may have killed one or both of them anyway. The switches are probably OK. If you get the pickups rewired and working (that's job #1!), we can provide a wiring diagram to rewire the controls. If it were me, and given that you're not worried about keeping it stock, I would measure the pickup mounting to see if you can get a standard single-coil unit to fit in there. You could get a pair of decent Strat SCs for $30 or so, and if they'll fit, you would be saving yourself a ton of grief. OTOH, if they're an oddball size, then you'll either have to find vintage replacements or dive in and rewire the existing ones. A third option would be to fabricate a pickup mounting to accept a standard sized pickup (or perhaps, to modify your existing mounts to accept one, if that's doable depending on the dimensions.).
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bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 5, 2010 10:27:41 GMT -5
Praise be!
This website is probably the most helpful place I have ever crossed.
I will initiate Job #1
I'll be back soon to report.
I wish there was something I could offer in return for the attentive administration!
Thanks
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 5, 2010 11:22:55 GMT -5
Well, now that newey has done all the heavy lifting, let me toss my 2 cents in here.
A very good point was made in newey's last post. The odds that you'll be able to repair/rebuild these 40+ year old pickups are a genuine long shot. Too much of their history is unknown...along with what they'll actually sound like if you do fix them...
If it we me...and that was my guitar...I'd be looking for some SC foot print/hum canceling pickups. You have DiMarzio, Duncan, Kent Armstrong plus a myriad of discount pickups to choose from.
I mention this as since you have a semi-hollow body guitar shielding is going to be a compromise to downright problematic. This will become more apparent to you when you switch one of the single coils off and you lose the hum canceling both pickups give you.
Another advantage, with all the real estate you have on the pickguard, is the ability to add more functionality with the 4 wire hum canceling strat look-alike pickups.
But hey, that's just my opinion...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2010 12:46:43 GMT -5
Again, you'll need a multimeter to check whether the pickups are functional. No point in working like crazy to rewire them if they won't work when you're done.
With your meter set at 20KΩ range, each pickup should give you roughly 5-7KΩ resistance. If you can't get a reading off of either one, then don't waste your time trying to rewire them.
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bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 5, 2010 16:00:25 GMT -5
I got the plates off the bottom of the pick ups. The only wire I find is that which is wrapped around the spool.
I don't know what to do here,. Do I just try to find each end of wound copper wire? Do I find a swap from another parts guitar, or do I buy a new replacement?
These pick ups might not be what I want. I really want something that growls and something that can really catch the sound inside.
I guess I really need to explore the threads and info sites for awhile. I feel like I'll be catching on pretty quick to this.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2010 18:50:41 GMT -5
Essentially, yes. But I was assuming, I guess, that someone had simply snipped the insulated wires off at the baseplate- and that therefore you would find two little stubs of insulated wire, which would clearly be the spots to wire onto. Is there, then, no indication of the ends of the coil wires? Perhaps some photos of the pups with the covers off will disclose more. If all there is to work with is the pickup winding wires, these are usually around 45-47 gauge wire. Tricky to work with, more like spun silk than wire! Remember, both Cyn and I strongly suggested that you not dive into this! But now that you have, please test the coil once you locate the ends of the coil wires. That will disclose whether there's any point in proceeding. Again, I would measure first to see how close the mounting rings are to accept a std SC pickup. Or, get a hold of a Strat pickup and try it out for size. Does it fit, or can it be easily made to fit? If so, you have hundreds of options along a scale of prices. (Want growl? There's a pickup for that™) ;D If it's way off, then a vintage replacement would be needed. Get whoever you buy it from to guarantee it's not DOA. You're not likely to find a NOS replacement, and as far as I know, no one makes an off-the-shelf replacement. There are, of course, custom winders who'll twist up any pup you want, but bring a fat wallet to the party . . . About the only SC-sized pickups that are generally available are Strat, Tele, Jaguar, or Mustang/Duo-sonic replacements (All Fenders, since they were/are the SC Empire.)Check the sizes of those against what you have, that'll tell you whether new replacements are a viable option. Looking at your photos, I doubt any of these will fit exactly. You might have to live with a void at the corners. The key dimension will be the distance between the 2 pickup mounting screws- if that matches, the existing mount can probably be shaved a bit here and there to get a fit.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 6, 2010 16:34:44 GMT -5
batear, Or you could just make new mounting rings, to exactly match whatever pickups you buy, and to cover any woodwork you might have to perform on the body itself, in order to accomodate said new pups. And while I'm at it..... Hi, and to the NutzHouse! HTH sumgai
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bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 6, 2010 17:55:01 GMT -5
I think I am going to take this opportunity to build the guitar that I want.
This guitar is inspiration enough for me to learn how to make my own sound.
The piccups, I am going to remake. I'm including some pictures of them as they are.
I've been trying to keep up with the strange precipitation here, and haven't been able to test them. Even if they read, I want to change a few things materials wise, keep them unpotted and try to figure how to best catch the sound I am looking for.
I was putting up a door on my pump house today and I thought
"I haven't even set strings to the body. . ."
I need to fix the nut back secure, no problem.
But, find an answer for the bridge, a point that I believe will take me to the Repair and Lutherie section of the forum.
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Post by newey on Nov 6, 2010 19:01:18 GMT -5
Do you mean to rewind them?
While that can certainly be done, you are unlikely to get "the sound you want" on the first attempt.
If they do work now, I'd attach new leads to 'em and put them aside if you don't want to use them. They are vintage, after all.
You're probably going to have more luck getting closer to what you want by replacing the pickups.
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bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 7, 2010 10:23:29 GMT -5
I saw the machine they are selling at Stewmac. In further searching I found several accounts of people fabricating their own piccup winders from sewing machines, fans, and polisher wheels. I forgot to link to the piccup images last post, so here they are. s1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff451/sweetephemera/Guyatone%20Pick%20ups/I'm thinking I have a list of ideas, but I am still inexperienced enough not to announce them publicly. Any known hope of replacing just the spool? Do I even need to do that? ETC?
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bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 7, 2010 11:00:01 GMT -5
I have a ton of old record players, so I thought I might change an idler drive to a holster for my piccup, this way, I could measure the RPM until I had the desired amount of turns. Of course the problems will extend when I get started, but I am sure that I can fabricate something that will successfully wind a piccup for me. It'll take a while to wind the right one, But it will be worth it to possess the ability to rewind, and even fabricate piccups.
I'll be moving to my barn for this task.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 7, 2010 13:11:37 GMT -5
...I have a ton of old record players, so I thought I might change an idler drive to a holster for my piccup, this way... It didn't hit me right away...but after doing a few quick calcs...you might want to reconsider using a record player as your drive mechanism. Taking averages for the sake of conversation, lets say the average single coil pickup has 4000' to 5000' of wire wrapped around the bobbin. Using 6" as an average amount of wire wrapped per turn, the following seems to apply: 33.3 RPM Speed = 16.6' per minute = 4000' @ 4 hours or 5000' @ 5 hours 45 RPM Speed = 22.5' per minute = 4000' @ 2 hours 57 minutes or 5000' @ 3 hours 42 minutes 78 RPM Speed = 39' per minute = 4000' @ 1 hour 42 minutes or 5000' @ 2 hours 8 minutes Unless you're planning on modifying the pulley ratio to speed it up, which will cut the torque even more to an initially low torque configuration, then I missed something somewhere... I've seen electric drills modified for winding pickups, but this presents an issue mounting the drill into a stable level position. Years ago I had a friend who worked at S.D. Curlee two doors down from us in the 70's industrial incubator garages so popular at that time, and we made a pickup winder out of a small bench grinder. It was mounted to a locking turntable to do the RWRP pickups. We rigged a sewing machine pedal to it to control the speed and built a fixtures to allow us to make bass and guitar pickups. We used the transmission sensor mechanism out of an old Chrysler to count RPM's. I recall we also made a guide out of stainless rod mounted to old roller skate wheels with guides so we never walked the wire past the plates...trial and error brought that modification on...just walk one out of the plates once at 3000 rpm's and you'll see the wisdom behind that addition... To give you an indication of how good we got at it S.D. Curlee never stopped using DiMarzio's... Granted, it's been over 30+ years ago, but some of the lessons still remain. The first is tension. Too tight and the pickup is muddy. Too loose and it'll act like a crystal set... And break a wire and the whole process starts over. Too many wraps really does create a hot and very muddy sounding pickup. I recall one overwound P-Bass pickup I did that made an EBO pickup sound like a pristine piezo... I guess my point is, that unless you're doing this for the sheer challenge, the ends may not justify the means. There is a serious learning curve that really needs someone with a good amount of experience to get you started off on the right foot. Good luck on this project, but don't stop watching eBay in the interim... Happy Trails Cynical One
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bat ear
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Post by bat ear on Nov 7, 2010 17:35:06 GMT -5
My eyes have seen at least 200 listings, none that will match me right yet. . .
That's a really interesting story you've got, and if it definitely did nothing for your warnings about how this is going to difficult. . .
I'm going to press on and try this. I might implement a buffer/polisher motor to achieve the speed I would like to have in the process.
I just cannot get over the fact that I might be able to bypass shopping by creating my own. Yet it may so be that I buy some temp piccups while I learn the practice of winding. The skill would be so valuable to me. I am planning on starting a project in my town that will hopefully involve some of the things we talk about on this forum, along with some other fun, like getting a tube guitar amp from an old console stereo.
I'm sure this is going to error after error, but I have taken error this long, and it has only made good.
My prime is making something that is of high quality, but is personal and allowed to created. If I can learn this, then I can provide cheap piccups for the middle and high school people at home. I just want kids to have a better experience and more appropriate equipment than I did growing up.
As far as needing experts, the internet has failed to fail me yet. If it does fail at this point then I will be even more persistent about learning this.
For me, If I want guitars, amps, and speakers, I have to figure out a way to fix the ones that are broke, because they are the only ones I can afford.
Thanks for all the hard work from everyone. Again, I'll be happy when I can do something for you all.
Thanks, Tommy A
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 7, 2010 21:29:24 GMT -5
Well, from my experience, if you see a bull ready to charge through a fence into a brick wall it's always best to just get out of his way...
The best advice I can give you is to read everything you can about winding pickups. Watch every video a dozen times and have everything right in your mind before you start.
Remember you'll have to RWRP one of your pickups to get hum canceling when they're both selected...and you may want to wind the bridge pickup slightly hotter then the neck, maybe 10% or 20%.
We did make a few good ones. Randy made a very nice set of P-90's that sounded as clean as it gets. Pay no attention to the dozens that just plains sucked...
Rather then use a transmission sensor, you might want to use a proximity sensor and tie it to a simple digital counter. Use turned wooden discs to mount your fixtures on, center them with the spindle mounting hole and use a metal dowel pin to mark TDC on your fixture.
As I recall we used 42 AWG for the lower output pickups with fewer windings and 43 AWG for the ones we wound hotter, or for humbuckers. Don't quote me, but that's what came to mind while I was fixing fences and building a pen today.
This struck me as one of the better videos on the subject:
Granted, it's a stacked humbucker, but you get the point. And notice how light his touch is.
Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by newey on Nov 8, 2010 21:48:12 GMT -5
GuitarPartsUSA sells pickup bobbins, pole pieces, and 42 gauge wire. Seems a bit pricey, $5 for a plastic bobbin . . . They sell winding wire for $26/roll, advertised as enough to do 6 SCs- which I figure to be about 24,000 feet- that's quite a bit of wire . . . Stew-Mac has the same sized roll for a higher price, but you can also get 43 gauge from them. This is one of the areas where you end up buying from guitar retailers, rather than electronics warehouses. Mouser and Allied, for example, only carry wire down to 32 gauge. And wire wholesalers will want to sell you mass quantities. I wish you luck in your winding endeavors. Just go into it with your eyes open, and recognize there will be a learning curve, and you'll be paying to learn how to do it- some factory in China can twist one up for you for less than you'll lay out in materials.
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