Return of the nightmare strat project...

[4real]

HELP...again...

I'm sure there are lots of lessons to be learned here...like don't try and be too clever!

So, anyone remember this guitar...

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=3521



Well...It's back!

This guitar was fitted with two JB Hot noiseless fender single coils and a SD JB HB as well...it has something of the tribute to JB in it...though he would never play a guitar with so much switching power!

I spent half a day on it and at last got to hear what these pickups sound like...great and noisefree...but with some wiring problems...

I thought, well I will just try and snip out most of this wiring and ditch the super-switch as it was taking up a bit of room.

I figured I might try and wire it in 'modules' leaving out the whole sustainer thing till I got everything settled...besides I lost the wiring codes in the last move so had to dig in there to find which wire was which.

After the 22-dual went so well...hmmm, but then i had a great diagram to work from...I quite liked the parallel sound as much as a split so figured I could put that in the volume control's P-P switch...

So...taking pair of cables directly from the socket I started testing the pickups and identifying things and cleaning up the wiring. hard wire the HB in series and parallel and confirmed that seemed to work...then wired the push pull to do that function, wired the HB to that and now I have two leads coming out for the HB.

Now I also have a 4pdt switch under the volume control...and I thought...hmmm...perhaps a 'neck on' switch would be cool. I wired a pair of leads to go to the standard selector so that it would connect the neck with the bridge giving me N, N+M, M, N+M+B, N+B

ok...but either something is wrong or there is a switch failure...but when the push pot is down for series mode it seems to be split to the inner coil on the HB and sounds a bit weak...the parallel sounds extra loud compared to the other pups...so clearly something is going wrong here.

Oh yes...forgot to mention...since I had a 4pdt switch, I wired the middle pickup to a simultaneous phase switch so in fact the middle is OoP ie N, N-M, M, N-M-B, N+B

Now...this creates some interesting sounds ok....could perhaps this though be the problem with that shorting coil?

The volume control is working a bit oddly, all the volume in the far end of the travel...makes easy volume swells but is practically off at 8 on the dial!!!

I suspect the only thing for it is to rebuild the uber-pot...PITA but possible...but I still can't quite see how the P-P is splitting the HB in series mode as the wiring all seems to check out...parallel seems over poweringly loud too...very odd. The spit is kind of weak but makes some lovely airy quack sounds...it will alomst be a shame to "fix" the thing!

Oh...and it tentatively tried wiring the single tone control in and thought maybe having it only work on say the middle might be interesting (esp with the OoP thing)...but it didn't work well and acted more as a volume control on the entire guitar...I really am having problems for some reason.

Anyway...a start and once plugged in I forgot how good it feels to play a strat again...it's been a while.

I'm having all kinds of problems...might have a go again tomorrow...but it is an interesting learning experience as I am coming across quite a few really great sounds and there is a huge variance between them and all seem pretty useful.

Anyway...any thoughts or direction might be useful...I'll leave the sustainer for another day and perhaps snip it right out for now...it's a complicated beast though and I had started with that last time...but turned into a birds nest and really...I just want my guitar back!

I'm tempted to ditch the whole uber pot thing completely...though it does feel good to have a kind of mode switch right there and the intention was to ahve the p-p up for a more balanced parallel sound then hit it for the full creamy power of the series mode.

There is even more switching power in this guitar of course...but one thing at a time...there is a piezo in the neck socket and all kinds of weird mods in the thing, but I really think I over did it...I even found a little preamp in the jack socket I didn't know I'd put there...

SO, in this, a lesson is surely to be learned, just because you can do something doesn't mean you necessarily should!

[newey]

There is a lot going on here, and it's tough to follow a verbal description of it all.

I suspect the only thing for it is to rebuild the uber-pot...PITA but possible...but I still can't quite see how the P-P is splitting the HB in series mode as the wiring all seems to check out...parallel seems over poweringly loud too...very odd. The spit is kind of weak but makes some lovely airy quack sounds...it will alomst be a shame to "fix" the thing!

If the "uber-switch" was internally shorting in series mode, I can see where a coil might be lost. I'd say rechecking that switch would be the first order of business.

As far as the parallel sound being so much louder, are you sure that's the parallel you're hearing and not the series? IOW, is it perhaps losing the coil in parallel, and then OK in series?

The volume control is working a bit oddly, all the volume in the far end of the travel...makes easy volume swells but is practically off at 8 on the dial!!!

Is this a log taper pot and what value? If it's a standard value (250KΩ to 500kΩ), probably need to check the pot for proper operation after disconnecting it.

Although it's a PITA with a Strat to have to keep making changes, obviously there are multiple issues here. I'd say your best bet is to simplify it down as much as possible, get it working, then add in the additional elements you want.

For example, if you have a regular P/P around, maybe remove the uber-switch for testing and just use a regular P/P to get your series/parallel, leaving the mid-phase thing for another day and another switch.

As to why the tone control is wanky, I have no idea. Are you sure the cap value is what you want?

It's always tough to go back into a guitar when it has been awhile since you did anything, trying to remember how it all was to begin with. One good tip ChrisK taught me was to keep extensive notes of each guitar I modify. I check the values of each component, and check that it's working properly, and note all that info before I start wiring. I include a wiring diagram in the notes.

Unfortunately, I have several guitars I modded before I started following that advice, and if I ever have to go back into any of those for changes or troubleshooting, I no longer have any recollection of what I did or what was in there . . .

[thetragichero]

Dec 3, 2010 6:51:10 GMT -5 newey said:

Unfortunately, I have several guitars I modded before I started following that advice, and if I ever have to go back into any of those for changes or troubleshooting, I no longer have any recollection of what I did or what was in there . . .

i have been running into this problem lately while switching pickups... i take a scorched earth policy and remove everything and redo it. it comes out a lot neater now that i'm not rushed to get it done for a gig/practice

[ashcatlt]

We would expect even a parallel wired HB to be louder than an OoP combination of SCs. It likely shouldn't be louder than any one SC, though. Have you checked the pickup heights? The series position should be noticeably darker than either the split HB or the parallel position, so I'd think that if newey was right that you've confused the two, you'd know it.

Keep in mind that any tone control in the circuit will act as a Master Tone when selected. If you've actually got it wired to only come into effect when the M is in circuit, it will affect the whole guitar in positions 2, 3, and 4. The fact that it works more like a Volume control would seem to indicate that the cap is somehow shorted or bypassed to ground.

The thing with the actual Volume control is just strange and I'm having trouble coming up with something that might do that. I guess if it was not actually a log taper pot, you'd see something strange. I'm just grasping at straws.

This would all be a lot easier if you was to draw for us what (you think) you've wired up now.

For the P/P, if you had it wired like any of these:

and grounded (purposely or accidentally) either of the bottom lugs, you'd see what you've described. Well, in B, it would have to be the leftmost bottom lug or else you'd have it permanently split.

[JohnH]

Dec 3, 2010 4:16:06 GMT -5 4real said:

Anyway...any thoughts or direction might be useful...

Yes...I suggest working through a schematic first and get it all drawn out so it can be checked, then a wiring diagram to build off!

cheers

John

[4real]

Well....Yes...and thanks for the replies...a plan might have been better with this project!

I wired the series parallel as per (a) which is typical I suppose...I even tested each pup direct to the socket an series parallel on the HB before wiring it up...so clearly something has gone awry with the switch pot and will need a rebuild....some sort of grounding then of the jumper may well explain the effects.

I'm using a way similar in format to this...



I did have a superswitch squeezed in there at one stage because I really like the neck+bridge sound certainly more so than the mid alone.

The phase switch is a typical X pattern dpdt and the neck on simply connects the neck selector terminal to the bridge selector...

I suppose I was thinking that such simple mods could be added one at a time without error and at least discover some cool sounds from this guitar and lend clues as to what direction I might go in...

The tone thing...again not sure, I figured instead of a master tone I could use it as similar to the neck or middle tones on a strat...

I did strip almost everything out now at least and re did the color codes on the pups and took notes on those at least now!

So...I guess I learned a few sounds that the guitar is capable of and discovered some switching faults and will just have to replace them...they did get a bit of wear and tear in the mechanical making of the things but the parts are interchangeable and I believe I'll have some replacement pots somewhere...thanks

Oh...and the parallel thing...my experience with the 22-dual is that it is a similar sound to a split and at least as loud and the hope was that this would provide a decent balance with the singles and a bit of quack...I'll have another go later since everything is still out to mess about with it.

[ashcatlt]

Dec 3, 2010 15:12:58 GMT -5 4real said:

I'm using a way similar in format to this...

That whole bit confuses me. I thought you were talking about a more or less standard Strat 5-way with a neck on.

The tone thing...again not sure, I figured instead of a master tone I could use it as similar to the neck or middle tones on a strat...

Common misconception, of which I thought you'd have been disabused by now. The two tones on a Strat are actually both Master Tones which are only in play when their corresponding pickups are selected. In the B+M position, the Mid Tone affects both pickups, or rather the whole guitar. In N+M it's even weirder. You've got two parallel - and interactive - Master Tones. Turning either affects both pickups.

This is true even in something like an LP. Now, in a "modern wired" LP, where the Tone comes before the Volume, you can get some independence if you turn the Volume control down a bit. Then the Tone is "hidden" behind the series resistance from the top of the V pot, and might not affect the other pickup quite so much.

Again, though, if a Tone is acting like a Volume, it usually means the cap is shorted or bypassed, or else is just way too big.

[4real]

Ooops...I pasted that from somewhere as an example of an 8 in line selector like the 5 way I have gone back too...didn't realize all the other stuff was attached in the image...

Haven't had a chance yet to play with it today...the cap was from the original wiring I think, but I have a selection...I've obviously got some faulty components and some errors...will draw up the final solution unless I find something that appeals sooner.

[4real]

OK...

Well...eventually found the mystery...the ground lead had gotten pulled bring it out of the PVC tape and in contact with at least one other lead and obviously not good...may even been having random effects...

I took out the phase component as not be terrifically useful...put in a tiny cap which has a dramatic effect on one end that seems ok...the old one should have been ok...might try a few alternatives next time I open it up.

So...for now the end result is standard strat switching, plus neck on plus series parallel on the HB. The SD JB HB is surprisingly loud in parallel mode, a decent balance with the singles...not as 'airy' as split so perhaps that is something to explore at a later time.

It is a great guitar to play though...so perhaps I will go do that then...been suffering from a bad flu again!