Wiring For A Humbucker Strat

[prittstick]

Hey,

I was wondering if I could get some advice. I want to rewire and shield my guitar based on the instructions from the GuitarNuts website. I also want to upgrade the volume pot in my strat to a 500k one rather than 250k. However, I have an HSS layout which means that the single pickups won't sound as good.

What's the best way to get the advantage of 500k for the humbucker but the 250k for the single pups? I don't use the singles or the tone knobs but I do want the guitar to have them usable at the best tone available for them.

Thanks!

[jcgss77]

Welcome to GN2 prittstick!!

My response is assuming that you are looking for a brighter sound from your humbucker, and a darker sound for your singles.

You can incorporate a mini toggle or a push/pull or push/push 500k pot to switch on a larger value cap when you use the singles, and switch to the other for the bumhucker. I am sure more elaborate and better options are coming soon.

[cynical1]

I've got an HSS project, but I did a separate volume and tone for the two SCs and the one HB. I used 500K pots.

Three words spring to mind almost immediately.

Free Woman Tone

ChrisK put this together and even provided a chart to show you the outcomes of swapping different caps into the circuit. I used the .022uf and .047uf caps to get the .015uf woman tone.

All it takes is one small SP3T center off switch. It's dirt simple to do and costs next to nothing to accomplish.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[JohnH]

I would go for the 500k, for volume and tone, if you want the most bite from your humbucker. For your single coils, if they sound too bright in this case, turning down the tone control to about 6 is identical (to within a fraction of a decibel) to having two 250k pots. This assumes that you have one of your Strat tone controls working in the bridge position. But if not, then you can just keep the 250k volume pot, which sounds the same (with no tone pot) as the classic 500k for volume and tone.

[prittstick]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the advice. I'm still not quite sure which route to go on. My bridge pickup is not hooked up to a tone control at all. Before I start thinking about any other option, is it right that it should already have a 500k tone? Would it make a difference if I upgraded it to a CTS 250k pot? If its on full volume anyway does it make a difference?

Thanks again!

[JohnH]

Nothing wrong with a 500k tone pot, which sounds lke it only works in positions other than B only (normal Strat). You can always turn it down to about 7, and then you have a 250k.

Normal tone pots have an affect at all volume settings

J

[prittstick]

Dec 14, 2010 14:41:34 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Nothing wrong with a 500k tone pot, which sounds lke it only works in positions other than B only (normal Strat). You can always turn it down to about 7, and then you have a 250k.

Normal tone pots have an affect at all volume settings

J

I think I may have written a confusing response. I'll just clarify things a little. I have 3 250K standard Fender pots at the moment, two tones and a volume. The tones are for the middle and neck pickups and are not connected to the bridge humbucker. The humbucker only has the volume control.

I wanted to change the volume pot to 500k, to improve the sound from the humbucker. However, I wanted to keep the middle and neck pickups sounding as they do now. Obviously changing the volume pot will affect the sound and I wanted to find out if there was a good way of having both the 250k sound and the 500k sound available.

Thanks again

EDIT:

I've read your post again. Are you saying that if I change the volume pot to 500k, while keeping the tone pots at 250k, I will get the desired sound from the middle and neck pickups by rolling off the tone to 7? This will give the effect of having a 250k volume pot?

[irwired]

Maybe I can help out here.
What John was saying is a pot is a variable resistor, like a dimmer switch. A 500k pot dialed down will, at around 7, give you a value of 250k ohms of resistance. You can see this effect using a multimeter across the contacts before you install the pot.

I asked a similar question a month or so ago

Cheers
IRW

[prittstick]

Dec 16, 2010 13:30:20 GMT -5 irwired said:

Maybe I can help out here.
What John was saying is a pot is a variable resistor, like a dimmer switch. A 500k pot dialed down will, at around 7, give you a value of 250k ohms of resistance. You can see this effect using a multimeter across the contacts before you install the pot.

I asked a similar question a month or so ago

Cheers
IRW

Ahh right, I get what you're saying. Basically, if I upgrade only my volume pot to 500k then I can roll it off to around 7 to get the 250k sound.

However, I do have one other question. When JohnH said this:

But if not, then you can just keep the 250k volume pot, which sounds the same (with no tone pot) as the classic 500k for volume and tone.

Is he saying that the 250k volume pot on a humbucker with no tone control sounds like a 500k pot anyway? If that is the case, then I can leave the pot as it is because the humbucker is not connected to a tone control.

Thanks again, sorry about the confusion!

[ashcatlt]

He's saying that if you had a 500K V and a 500K T, they would parallel to 250K. A 250K V with no T is about the same thing.

Kind of the same thing with turning tone down a bit - what really matters is the total resistance of the two pots in parallel.

[newey]

To sort of complete Ash's thought, the formula for calculating the total resistance (R_T) of N number of resistors in parallel is:

R_T=1/ {(1/R1)+(1/R2)+(1/R3) . . .+(1/RN)}

Stock Strat in positions 5 (neck only) or 3 (mid only) or 2 (Br + mid) has 1 250KΩ Tone and 1 250KΩ Volume in parallel, so the formula gives the total resistance as:

1/ {(1/250K) + (1/ 250K)}=
1/ (2/250K)+
1/(1/125K)=
125K total resistance

In position 1 (Bridge), there's only the Volume in play so it's 250K.

In position 2, where all 3 pots are in parallel, (do the math) it's about 83.33KΩ

So, a 500K Volume pot will brighten your HB, and also your SCs (Total resistance of 166.66K, for one 250K T and a 500K V).

However, as JohnH noted, rolling the Tone down to about "7" (on an audio taper pot) will get one down from that 166.66K figure to about 125K total resistance, same as the stock Strat SC positions (excepting position 2). The extra brightness goes away.

From personal experience, I built a Strat copy with a single "dual-lipstick" HB at the bridge. The Lipstick tube pups are pretty bright-sounding to begin with, but I was shooting for extra-bright so I used a 1MΩ Tone pot and a 500KΩ Volume. I succeeded- it's ear-piercingly bright!

("sumgai, can you say 'icepick'?" "Good, I knew you could.")

My neighbor (playing it): "Dude, that's bright . . as . . . hell!"

I took his meaning. But with the Tone cranked down to about "4", it's all good.

But overall, the 1M option is not recommended from this corner . . .

[prittstick]

Dec 17, 2010 18:34:44 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

He's saying that if you had a 500K V and a 500K T, they would parallel to 250K. A 250K V with no T is about the same thing.

Kind of the same thing with turning tone down a bit - what really matters is the total resistance of the two pots in parallel.

Ahhh, okay I'm starting to get this now. My last question with this is in regards to what people mean when they say, "you need 500k for humbuckers and 250k for singles". I assume that seeing as Les Pauls are more of a humbucker guitar than Strats, and Les Pauls with humbuckers normally have a tone control on each humbucker, then each humbucker would parallel to 250k.

Therefore, on a guitar with only a volume control on the humbucker, you would require 250k to get the same sound. The reason this came about is that I wasn't that happy with the sound of the humbucker and was advised by the manufacturer to upgrade to 500k as this is what the humbucker was designed to work with...

Dec 17, 2010 20:18:08 GMT -5 newey said:

However, as JohnH noted, rolling the Tone down to about "7" (on an audio taper pot) will get one down from that 166.66K figure to about 125K total resistance, same as the stock Strat SC positions (excepting position 2). The extra brightness goes away.

Thank you newey for clearing that up further. My one query here is to do with the type of taper on the pots. I was under the impression that audio taper should be used for volume pots and linear taper for tone pots. In which case, what should it be rolled down to on a linear taper pot? Also, how would I find out what was installed on my Fender Strat as standard and what is there now?

Thanks!

[newey]

Also, how would I find out what was installed on my Fender Strat as standard and what is there now?

Unless your Strat dates back to the Fifties, the stock pots are all 250K.

If the pots may have been changed, or if you're unsure about any pot, the resistance figure can be checked with a multimeter (by testing the 2 outer lugs.

Keep in mind that the tolerance rating on most guitar pots is ±20%, so a nominal 500K pot could actually be anywhere from 400K to 600K and still be within spec.

[4real]

I just rewired my HSS strat with a variation of the MR scheme for this format...guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=5401

An HSS strat is generally a bit of a compromise...

I have heard of a dual gang pot (500k and 250K) so that you can use both at once for singles and Hb's...but perhaps you are hoping for more than a pot change can provide...is there something wrong with the pots in the guitar?

My scheme allows you to tailor the HB to taste and match for the singles. I used all 500k pots and as other have pointed out, if you turn down a 500K it will get to 250K somewhere in it's travel.

On my very bright tele I think I have a 1Meg volume control...I left off the treble bleed option so that I run it generally on about 8-9 on the dial so I have a bit of extra 'cutting power' if I want it and the volume drop cuts the cutting tone down a bit.

It depends on your level of skill and confidence with a completely different wiring scheme...might be worth considering. You don't say what the guitar and pickups are, but if it is a budget model, you might not want to go too 'over the top'.

There is a lot of improvement that can be had with a good shielding job...not sure that you will actually 'hear' much differences with pot values of any value...but you can get some significant sound changes with the various strat schemes and splits possible with say a 'super-switch' including more hum canceling positions.

As I say though, traditionally the HSS format is a bit of a compromise on a strat but it can work well. Typically the HB is so different that it compromises some fo the more 'quacky' combinations and over powers the weaker single coils. In mine I have hotter SC's and a milder HB that splits well.

When I had a standard selection and the cheaper pickup...position 2 (N+HB) was a bad very bright sound and the bridge alone was louder and too much of a tonal change...middle alone seems like a bit of a waste compared to a N+B option and on an HSS strat, this tends to even out the selections as well.

Consider a split option for the HB as this tends to tone things down a bit and gets you back into more traditional stat territory if that's the problem...

But is sounds like you generally stick to the HB anyway...500K pots will brighten that up a bit which can be a good thing if you are into distortion and that's your main pup...remember that EVH got a huge range of classic sounds with a single HB strat with that shtick and really solidified the HSS as a desirable 'do everything' guitar...I find that the HSS strat will always sound like a strat though regardless of pups and pots!

[prittstick]

Dec 18, 2010 22:08:39 GMT -5 4real said:

I just rewired my HSS strat with a variation of the MR scheme for this format...guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=5401

An HSS strat is generally a bit of a compromise...

I have heard of a dual gang pot (500k and 250K) so that you can use both at once for singles and Hb's...but perhaps you are hoping for more than a pot change can provide...is there something wrong with the pots in the guitar?

My scheme allows you to tailor the HB to taste and match for the singles. I used all 500k pots and as other have pointed out, if you turn down a 500K it will get to 250K somewhere in it's travel.

On my very bright tele I think I have a 1Meg volume control...I left off the treble bleed option so that I run it generally on about 8-9 on the dial so I have a bit of extra 'cutting power' if I want it and the volume drop cuts the cutting tone down a bit.

It depends on your level of skill and confidence with a completely different wiring scheme...might be worth considering. You don't say what the guitar and pickups are, but if it is a budget model, you might not want to go too 'over the top'.

There is a lot of improvement that can be had with a good shielding job...not sure that you will actually 'hear' much differences with pot values of any value...but you can get some significant sound changes with the various strat schemes and splits possible with say a 'super-switch' including more hum canceling positions.

As I say though, traditionally the HSS format is a bit of a compromise on a strat but it can work well. Typically the HB is so different that it compromises some fo the more 'quacky' combinations and over powers the weaker single coils. In mine I have hotter SC's and a milder HB that splits well.

When I had a standard selection and the cheaper pickup...position 2 (N+HB) was a bad very bright sound and the bridge alone was louder and too much of a tonal change...middle alone seems like a bit of a waste compared to a N+B option and on an HSS strat, this tends to even out the selections as well.

Consider a split option for the HB as this tends to tone things down a bit and gets you back into more traditional stat territory if that's the problem...

But is sounds like you generally stick to the HB anyway...500K pots will brighten that up a bit which can be a good thing if you are into distortion and that's your main pup...remember that EVH got a huge range of classic sounds with a single HB strat with that shtick and really solidified the HSS as a desirable 'do everything' guitar...I find that the HSS strat will always sound like a strat though regardless of pups and pots!

Wow thanks for all that information. Sorry about my late reply, Christmas has been a bit hectic. I think I should try and clear things up a bit. Basically, I have a Nailbomb humbucker in my guitar (made by Bare Knuckle Pickups) and it was suggested to me by the maker that I upgrade the pot to 500k because that's what it was designed to be used on.

After learning a bit more from this thread, in my mind I now understand it to be that if you have a tone control as well as a volume control, then the final output will be half of their total. Therefore, on a Les Paul with two 500k pots on each humbucker (volume and tone), the total resistance would be 250k per humbucker. On my Fender Stratocaster, the humbucker is not connected to a tone control, so I assume that the total resistance would also be 250k, therefore exactly the same as the Les Paul (which I imagine most of these HBs are used on). This is what has stalled me in going ahead straight away with what was recommended by the maker of the humbucker.

However, I have done some more research into the sound I'm looking for. Ideally, I'm looking for a tone similar to the Tom DeLonge Fender Stratocaster, discontinued a few years back. This had one heavy humbucker (Seymour Duncan Invader) and a single volume control. I don't believe the Nailbomb has such a heavy sound, which is good for me because I play Punk Rock mainly, not Metal.

I found this interesting thread on the Fender forum:

www.fender.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15319&sid=cea8f1e85d0fff8ba8aee1f8ffdd1671

A few posts down in thread someone states,

"I have both a So Cal Speed Shop Stratocaster (hardtail) and an FSR Straight Six Stratocaster, and the Tom DeLonge Stratocaster (have at least tried a few of 'em) has quite a bit more mojo than the So Cal and Straight Six. The mojo of the Tom DeLonge Stratocaster comes from both the Seymour Duncan SH-8 Invader humbucker, a .220K resistor and a 680pf capacitor between the 500K potentiometer and the output jack, so there is some tone shaping going on when turning the volume knob. Both the So Cal Speed Shop Stratocaster and FSR Straight Six Stratocaster have only a 500K potentiometer in control of things."

This has made me wonder even more what that resistor and capacitor are doing to the sound. Also, the 500k pot suggests that without the tone pot, the total resistance will be 500k, therefore much brighter.

Does anybody have any ideas how that setup is shaping the sound and why that would have been used?

Thanks again for all your help

[newey]

OK, for reference, here's the DeLonge Strat wiring diagram:



And there's your 220KΩ resistor and your 680pf cap, numbered 13 and 14.

Does anybody have any ideas how that setup is shaping the sound and why that would have been used?

The cap and resistor are used for a so-called "treble bleed" circuit. The cap and resistor are wired in parallel, from the input to the output of the pot. This type of circuit is technically an "RC Filter" (for Resistance/Capacitance).

The circuit allows some of the higher frequencies to bypass (or "bleed past") the pot. This maintains the treble somewhat as the volume is rolled down, to sort-of avoid the usual issue of the tone getting bassier as the volume is reduced.

It has no effect at all with the volume at "10", so in that sense it doesn't really "shape the sound". It's a useful mod, but only if one uses the volume control. I suspect the added "mojo" the OP spoke of is more related to the different pickup than to the treble bleed circuit.

JohnH has written extensively about the treble bleed, and has researched appropriate cap and resistor values. The values on the DeLonge Strat seem a bit high, but these are subjective judgments.

Here's JohnH's take, entitled A Better Treble Bleed Circuit

[4real]

Jan 6, 2011 21:11:33 GMT -5 prittstick said:

However, I have done some more research into the sound I'm looking for. Ideally, I'm looking for a tone similar to the Tom DeLonge Fender Stratocaster, discontinued a few years back. This had one heavy humbucker (Seymour Duncan Invader) and a single volume control. I don't believe the Nailbomb has such a heavy sound, which is good for me because I play Punk Rock mainly, not Metal.

I found this interesting thread on the Fender forum:

www.fender.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15319&sid=cea8f1e85d0fff8ba8aee1f8ffdd1671

A few posts down in thread someone states,

"I have both a So Cal Speed Shop Stratocaster (hardtail) and an FSR Straight Six Stratocaster, and the Tom DeLonge Stratocaster (have at least tried a few of 'em) has quite a bit more mojo than the So Cal and Straight Six. The mojo of the Tom DeLonge Stratocaster comes from both the Seymour Duncan SH-8 Invader humbucker, a .220K resistor and a 680pf capacitor between the 500K potentiometer and the output jack, so there is some tone shaping going on when turning the volume knob. Both the So Cal Speed Shop Stratocaster and FSR Straight Six Stratocaster have only a 500K potentiometer in control of things."

This has made me wonder even more what that resistor and capacitor are doing to the sound. Also, the 500k pot suggests that without the tone pot, the total resistance will be 500k, therefore much brighter.

Does anybody have any ideas how that setup is shaping the sound and why that would have been used?

Thanks again for all your help

Hmmm....Got to watch those Mojo things. The pickup industry is particularly affected...same with 'brand specific' forums and signature series guitars. We all "fall for it" to some extent...

This forum tends to be a bit different and more variety of views..and well, going back to first principles....

So yes, a treble bleed circuit..can be a great thing to roll back the 'mud' of an over powered pickup (makes you wonder why you want that "power" if you prefer the sound of less...but that's perhaps another pet subject)...

On my new LP I have fairly high powered PUP's...but they sound good split...the treble bleeds in the volume controls are effective for brightening things up when you turn down...less power hitting something like a valve amp will certainly clean things up a little as well. Without them, as you turn down, HB's tend to get even more 'muddy'...anyway...

So...an alternative scenario is my 'tele' which has a vintage 'fender wide range HB' and a new stacked Scn neck pup. In this very bright guitar, I've used a 1 Meg pot...so twice the resistance of a 500K and on full volume is very cutting and bright. However, I didn't use any treble bleeds, so when you turn it down to say 8, it takes off that 'cutting edge'.

Generally there is more of this kind of "shaping' when you don't have the bleeds in there, they tend to make things more even or brighter as you turn down...but sometimes, you want that rolled off...

That's the point though and to avoiding this kind of MOJO.

Try and work out exactly the kind of thing you want out of the guitar and how you want it to react for you...then apply the ideas that will achieve it.

A "genre" like punk especially could mean anything...high powered guitar or low powered trashy sounds to everything in between...a lot of the choices made in that genre were kind of philosophical.

Don't forget how much the amp you are using and how it reacts to pup power in the front end...if you use digital modelling things, they tend not to like being hit hard, and the output tends to strip away any guitars natural 'tone' and replace it with it's modeled thing.

Even with metal...there is the perception that you want a lot of power...but a really popular sound is active pickups that are low powered and very even and clean as a result...then given oomph with preamping...this gives both clarity and separation between note with that high gain sound. You are likely to get that kind of thing from lower powered passive pups through a preamp more than an overwound pup...but then, you'd likely get a name like "jazz" attached to the pup rather than "nail bomb" of 'death star invader killer pup'...all that kind of thing is really just mojo...

[prittstick]

Jan 6, 2011 23:22:56 GMT -5 4real said:

Hmmm....Got to watch those Mojo things. The pickup industry is particularly affected...same with 'brand specific' forums and signature series guitars. We all "fall for it" to some extent...

This forum tends to be a bit different and more variety of views..and well, going back to first principles....

So yes, a treble bleed circuit..can be a great thing to roll back the 'mud' of an over powered pickup (makes you wonder why you want that "power" if you prefer the sound of less...but that's perhaps another pet subject)...

On my new LP I have fairly high powered PUP's...but they sound good split...the treble bleeds in the volume controls are effective for brightening things up when you turn down...less power hitting something like a valve amp will certainly clean things up a little as well. Without them, as you turn down, HB's tend to get even more 'muddy'...anyway...

So...an alternative scenario is my 'tele' which has a vintage 'fender wide range HB' and a new stacked Scn neck pup. In this very bright guitar, I've used a 1 Meg pot...so twice the resistance of a 500K and on full volume is very cutting and bright. However, I didn't use any treble bleeds, so when you turn it down to say 8, it takes off that 'cutting edge'.

Generally there is more of this kind of "shaping' when you don't have the bleeds in there, they tend to make things more even or brighter as you turn down...but sometimes, you want that rolled off...

That's the point though and to avoiding this kind of MOJO.

Try and work out exactly the kind of thing you want out of the guitar and how you want it to react for you...then apply the ideas that will achieve it.

A "genre" like punk especially could mean anything...high powered guitar or low powered trashy sounds to everything in between...a lot of the choices made in that genre were kind of philosophical.

Don't forget how much the amp you are using and how it reacts to pup power in the front end...if you use digital modelling things, they tend not to like being hit hard, and the output tends to strip away any guitars natural 'tone' and replace it with it's modeled thing.

Even with metal...there is the perception that you want a lot of power...but a really popular sound is active pickups that are low powered and very even and clean as a result...then given oomph with preamping...this gives both clarity and separation between note with that high gain sound. You are likely to get that kind of thing from lower powered passive pups through a preamp more than an overwound pup...but then, you'd likely get a name like "jazz" attached to the pup rather than "nail bomb" of 'death star invader killer pup'...all that kind of thing is really just mojo...

There's some really interesting ideas there. Although, trying to decide how to go forward is still difficult. I'll describe my kit and describe the sound I'm looking for.

I use a Fender Stratocaster (MIM) HSS guitar with a maple neck and rosewood fretboard. It has a tremolo, although it has five springs and they clamp the bridge down to the body because I never use it in my music. The single pickups came as standard, but the humbucker was switched out (before I bought the guitar), for a Bareknuckle Nailbomb:

"http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=contemporary&pickup=nailbomb"

That is a really great link because they have recently updated the information on the website to include loads of information on each humbucker (including suond clips).

My amplifier is a Marshall AVT150H and I use a cheap Marshall cabinet (M414). The sound I'm looking for is the distortion sound of the guitars on the 'Box Car Racer' album.



If you listen to the intro and the palm mutes in the verse, that is the sound I'm looking for. Tom DeLonge never used his Fender for recording, always Les Pauls for sounds like that. However, I was hoping to get as close to that as possible.

What I was thinking of doing is shielding the guitar and changing the wiring to exactly how John (the creator of GuitarNuts) describes in Quieting The Beast: . At the same time, I was going to switch out the volume pot for a 500K CTS pot. However, the potential change to the sound of the singles has stopped me from doing this straight away. The additional information of the treble bleed components in the Tom DeLonge stratocaster gave me something else to consider. However, I tend to leave my guitar on 10 all the time, so I don't feel that it is completely necessary.

Do you feel, knowing the sound I am looking for, that doing the 'Quieting the Beast' modification exactly as described, whilst also switching out the volume pot for a 500K CTS one, would be a good idea?

Thanks again!