frobro808
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Post by frobro808 on Dec 12, 2010 22:13:05 GMT -5
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frobro808
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Post by frobro808 on Dec 12, 2010 22:18:17 GMT -5
ive never played an active guitar so i cant say how i like normal active pups. let alone really know what to feel for. now you can make any pup active... what happens to your sound? louder? muddier? crispy? bad cleans and good dirt? bad dirt and good cleans?
sounds interesting and would love to try it but wanna get to know a real active first i guess
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Post by newey on Dec 12, 2010 23:51:52 GMT -5
While EMG active pickups have the preamp integrated into the pickup itself, there are many other onboard preamps of various types which can make any pickup active.
An integrated unit attached to a volume pot isn't really a new idea either, it's been done before.
Pickups (like EMGs) that are designed from the get-go to be active are wound differently, and thus will sound different than a regular passive pickup with a preamplifier. Neither one is necessarily "better", it depends on the sound someone likes.
The ability to have a passive pickup, then switch the active mode, has some advantages as opposed to just having active pickups all the time. I noticed, in that thread you linked to, several folks asked the obvious question- if you're attaching the preamp to a pot, is it a P/P pot so you can switch the preamp in/out? No one answered that question, and SD's press blurb doesn't say.
SD also doesn't give the dimensions of this thing, and it looks fairly chunky. It will clearly fit in a Strat cavity, but I'm not so sure about other applications The wireless connectors add some width to it.
I have an onboard preamp that I have yet to install anywhere. It is designed to be used with a P/P pot, and the circuit board is about .5 X 1.5". It can be fixed to the bottom of a P/P with a bit of double-sided tape or a squirt of RTV, or it can be located elsewhere for ease of fitment. I got it from Guitarfetish a few years ago for about $20. It's slated for my "Esquire-ish" Telecopy, whenever I get around to it . . .
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frobro808
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Post by frobro808 on Dec 13, 2010 0:33:31 GMT -5
active pickups are wired with less windings right? so hypothetically speaking what do you think a passive-turned-active pickup sound? yea and the fact that nobody answered that p/p pot question seems a little fishy. i dont think its switchable. im sure you gurus over here could figure something out though
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 13, 2010 0:59:32 GMT -5
Well, I watched the video, read the SD hype and followed the forum post. I guess if you're looking to go active this is something to look at. It does allow coils splits and can still revert to passive if necessary.
I have several reservations, though...
First off, as I understand it, most active pickups are designed to be low output and it's the preamp that sends it over the top. What happens if you have a Super Distortion, or some other high output pickup, and hook it up to this?
Secondly, what about real estate in the cavity? If you tossed two of these into a Les Paul you'd have to tape the battery to the guitar from what it looks like.
And finally, it has a battery. I had a bad experience with an old Stingray bass one time...remember those... I was thinking about buying the thing and was trying it out on loan... In the middle of a gig/audition (I was sitting in for the guy who was planning on leaving and was hoping to really shine) the friggin' battery dies... Long story short, the gig/audition and the bass were both history...
As a gag, my buddy spray paints a 9v battery gold, mounts it to a piece of wood and has a small engraving made declaring "Fellowship of the Golden Alkaline".
That was over 30 years ago and to this day I refuse to use a battery in a guitar or an effects pedal. ...but that's just me...
If you do try these out post back and let us know.
Happy Trials
Cynical One FGA
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Post by JohnH on Dec 13, 2010 1:26:59 GMT -5
is it different to just making a simple built-in buffer or booster? we can build our own!
J
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 13, 2010 9:23:32 GMT -5
Yes, but can we do it without the hype? My personal preference...and that's all we're talking here...if you wanted that kind of sound...would be to use a preamp that plugs in the wall, requires no cavity routing and can be used in a myriad of different way to color the sound, aside from one "push/pull to the metal" setting... ...but that's just me... And SD seems to have designed this thing to eliminate any soldering. I'm sure they have a gaggle of research minions pushing that. A wise man I knew once said "Marketing Is". Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 13, 2010 18:18:43 GMT -5
But the question is how will it sound? How will it be different from the passive sound?
Assuming that it is just a high-Z preamp circuit without any additional EQ or filtering, and you are using your same old pickups, it'll be a bit brighter and a bit louder, and more consistent across different systems. Louder because that's part of the point. Brighter because the pickups will be isolated from the cable capacitance. More consistent partly because different cables have different capacitance, and partly because the input-Z of whatever you're plugging into won't matter. You could plug it into a low-Z line input and have the same frequency response out of the guitar as when plugged into an amp.
Some folks might prefer the higher cutoff in the treble, but some folks might call it too much. Some folks might like the consistency, but some effects - certain "vintage" fuzzes, and some older wahs - have very low in-Z and their sound depends greatly on the treble rolloff that this and cable capacitance cause. So if you love your FuzzFace, this is probably not for you.
We said above that true active pickups generally have fewer windings than passives. What's that mean? In general it means:
Less noise picked up because less wire exposed to the electromagnetic radiation.
Less output - the main reason an active preamp is required. By boosting the relatively noise-free pickup signal with a relatively quiet amp circuit we can maintain S/N ratio.
Less windings means less inductance which means quite a bit more treble. Combined with being isolated from the cable, these things have potential for quite a lot of treble output. Again, some folks might like this, but others...
I did not go too far in the links. Maybe my question was answered in there somewhere, but I didn't see any reference to replacing the jack. Is there an consideration to switching it off when unplugged?
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Post by jcgss77 on Dec 13, 2010 20:47:27 GMT -5
The current version is not switchable, but I bet a Nut could change that... I wouldn't be buying something like that. I do, however, have a schematic of a circuit to add to a pup to make it active...and it will fit on the back of a pup on a piece of perfboard That is gonna be a project I do soon after my amp and guitar...man too many projects at once...wish I had more time.
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frobro808
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Post by frobro808 on Dec 13, 2010 21:43:17 GMT -5
so hypothetically speaking.... say i wanted to be that snot-nosed brat and sport everything by a certain brand (in this case Seymour Duncan). However with my current setup here guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=5346 (thank you John H!!!) would it be possible to make it switchable and still fit or is that just a pipe dream? hypothetically speaking of course!! -frobro808
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Post by newey on Dec 13, 2010 22:40:51 GMT -5
I'm not so sure it'll fit even if you don't make it switchable! First, you'll have to contend with the rear-rout of the Dinky, I didn't see that they made this item in a long-shaft version. You may have some carving to do. You already have P/Ps on both pots, so you can't replace one with the "active pot" without losing something from your current scheme. To keep both P/Ps means adding this as a separate control, which may run into fitment issues. Plus, since both existing pots are already spoken for as far as the P/Ps, you'd have to add a switch to switch it off. Of course, we also haven't seen your cavity and the amount of spaghetti your current wiring involves. . .adding this particular meatball may prove troublesome. Of course, it could probably be made to fit by routing the rear cavity bigger and fashioning a new cover plate. But that gets into major surgery. I would be inclined to drop an email to SD's techs asking for exact dimensions before I pulled my plastic out. Or, have a Plan B- a Strat (or something else) you can drop it into in case the Jackson plan proves unworkable.
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frobro808
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Post by frobro808 on Dec 13, 2010 23:13:20 GMT -5
hmmmmmmmm.... somehow you've managed to get the ol ticker ticking up there. congratulations for that lol so... WHAT IF i say this again with a big IF i were to make these said routing modifications and make it to have 1 master volume and 2 tones? the MV being the modular pot. perhaps with a toggle switch for the on off selection prolly more spaghetti huh? yea looking back at the SD forum, it looks kinda chunky i doubt it'd even fit into my axe :/ oh well still fun thought to flirt with no?
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Post by newey on Dec 13, 2010 23:31:09 GMT -5
I also didn't mention finding a spot for the 9V battery.
If you really want to "activate" your Dinky, I'd ditch the SD Vol pot thing entirely and fit the circuit board and battery (if possible) separate from the controls, with a simple on/off switch- and using a TRS jack to disconnect the power. If you run your trem unit with only the outboard springs, you might even get it to fit in the trem cavity.
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Post by 4real on Dec 14, 2010 18:43:37 GMT -5
I have a battery in some of my guitars, but they are only necessary for the sustainer when in use or say a piezo thing...sometimes with a really bright guitar like my tele it's good to be able to use the cable capacitance to dull it down with the reduction of volume...it doesn't have a treble bleed either and works well on that guitar.
I got one of those GF preamps too...silly small...but in the end haven't found a home for it either...too much gain...made my own almost as small and there are plenty to choose from.
"Actives" like EMG are not simply less windings, this could radically change things like resonance...they also have far less magnetic pull as well and the circuits are designed for the coils with filtering to get that "sound"...
Beware the mojo...there are good reasons for using preamps in guitars...many really draw silly small amounts of power so generally you shouldn't get a sudden "fail"...but I quite like the 'passive sound', But regardless, adding active electronics to a passive pickup system does not give you that EMG effect at all!
It depends a lot of the player and style I suppose, but super high output pickups seem always to be a compromise on tone. They are not going to be any "louder"...your amp provides plenty, just turn the thing up...but they do tend to muddy up and overdrive the preamps at the expense of clarity.
One of the reasons that EMG's are liked so much for high gain things is that they have both the clarity of a lower powered passive and the oomph of a preamp to overdrive the preamp.
If you use any kind of stomp box or processor, as soon as your signal goes through this...your guitar is thereafter 'active' anyway...just a thought...most buffer things anyway even when off!
And beware 'brand specific' fanboy forums...they tend to be less open and knowledgeable and brand loyalty clouds everything...
Just step back and try and work out what you want to achieve from a guitar and take the measures necessary to achieve it based on the principles not the promises of the hype.
Oh...just had a look at the SD thing...it is tiny but those solderless connectors are many times bigger than the circuit...better to just solder things in. Also...generally with active systems like this you are changing the pot to something like 10K instead of 250-500K and you can't run the thing without a battery and switch to passive!
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Dec 14, 2010 21:08:36 GMT -5
*cough* gimmick *cough*
Seriously, I think it's a little funny that they release their "solderless pot" a couple days before the "solderless METAL-preamp active (insert hotword here) pot". Think they are gonna make more? I would say, "You Betcha!"
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Post by 4real on Dec 15, 2010 18:31:12 GMT -5
I had this 'conundrum' when I was designing my 'sustainer circuit' with a thought of marketing the thing....ten wire connection from the circuit...I looked at the exact same connectors and they took up more space than the entire hand built circuit board...the SMD's i this thing would make it tiny...see the GF preamps...silly small!
In the end I just added flying leads off of it to solder to. Lets face it, even with a solderless pot...you'd have to 'unsolder' the connections anyway to wire the thing up surely?
Generally though...not the best idea...even the GF thing or this or EMG's use a completely different pot and you are unlikely to be able to switch back to 'passive' effectively...better perhaps to just preamp the entire guitar just before the jack socket and after the controls in many ways perhaps...or just carry a spare battery and always unplug your guitar!
Since I can't seem to manage that too often...might be best to avoid the 'gimmick' and stick to a really good passive system and use effects or the amp for 'tone shaping' as required. Want a more 'hi-fi' sound with definition for high gain....go lower powered pickups without inherent midrange "mud" and lots of bright harmonic content and an even response across strings (which is what an EMG does)...and simply turn the thing up!
Unfortunately, the mojo industry is effected by the scam of more "power" (windings, thinner wire, more magnets) is what one wants for "metal"...LOL...most of those forums are unreadable because they are like sheep to these things...I bet a lot of guys will be adding even more power to pickups that are already putting out to much "power" and ondering why they got no definition or "tone"...run that rig into a lot of digital modelling amps or effects and you will be overloading eh inputs and perhaps using anohter 'preamp' in that to make the signal less "hot"...LOL...hype gone wild...but they are likely to move 'product'.
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frobro808
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Post by frobro808 on Dec 15, 2010 21:28:38 GMT -5
im sorry to be the forum idiot. i saw it, and being the excited newby that i am decided it wise to ask your guys' opinions while trying to form my own. this whole rewiring my guitar thing is all really new to me and i heard great things about SD so i inevitably started my researching there. also what caught my attention was while yes, they are a mainstream company and yes, they do mass-produce products but they are the only big company really pushing these ideas to the open for the entry level tweaker. while their ideas are not original im sure, they made it so the masses can gain access to them very easily. that being said, after stumbling upon this forum, i feel infinitely more grateful for the knowledge you folks have bestowed onto me than what the SD guys did. THANK YOU ALL!
going back to the subject of the product, it does seem too good to be true and i think the cleans will end up sounding more like a lame OD. idk who said it earlier but he/she was right, my signal is 'active' from my pedals any ways.
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Post by sumgai on Dec 16, 2010 3:57:42 GMT -5
frobro, First, there are no idiots here, unless one wishes to be such. And as you might imagine, it's hard to stay that way for long, 'round these parts. Second, what you did (post the thing), and why you did it (get feedback) was exactly why we're here - you did it correctly, nothing else to say. It is true that most members of this Forum have little love for MarketingSpeak (or as ChrisK called it - Feldergarb). Many of us have been around the block a time or two, and have seen just about all manner of BS, so you'll forgive us if we cast a rather jaundiced eye on re-hashed ideas and products. Which the Blackout is, of course. Long story short, your desire to learn more is commendable, and the fact that you consider our opinions valuable is gratifying, to say the least. But the caution here is twofold - listen to as many sources as you can find before making up your mind; and then stick with your decision - second-guessing yourself is fruitless, and leads to loss of sleep, appetite and hair (not necessarily in that order). Parting shot: No matter which path you take, you can be sure that we might have said "you'll be sorry", but we'll never say "you shouldn't've done that, chump". (Well, c1 might, he's getting pretty old, and he can judge. ) HTH sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 16, 2010 6:50:22 GMT -5
(Well, c1 might, he's getting pretty old, and he can judge. ) I'm never going to live that one down, am I... I agree with sg 100% on this. (...guess I am getting old...) For some people this little SD device may be the best option and they'll live happily ever after with it. SD is banking on this too... I heard a sage old horse trainer once say, just before a "green" (define as newbie) rider went into the dust, "I've seen this movie before...and I know how it ends". The knowledge and insight from years of experience was offered but the decision to use it was left up to the student. He had offered advice previously, but the lesson was not absorbed until the lack of knowledge was abruptly brought home to the student. Granted, you're not going to go flying off into the dust of you find you've performed a novice act on your guitar. You just learn what was there, what worked and what didn't...and many times you learn you should have taken a closer look at what was there before you messed with it... We've all been there...whether we care to admit it or not... Like sg said, asking questions is what we're here for. It'd get pretty dull around here if no one did. Sometimes there's just a knee jerk, eyebrow raised reaction to stuff like this from folks here. It doesn't make it bad or good, it just makes it a target for closer scrutiny. And you make a good point. A lot of people won't go to the trouble of learning and designing a mod like this. Plug and Play rules the day for most people. SD has made this option available to a lot of people that would normally never consider it...and a few might look closer and figure it out for themselves. If the player is happy then this is a good thing. And watch that "forum idiot" stuff...I'm not giving up my moniker without a fight... ;D Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by newey on Dec 16, 2010 20:49:57 GMT -5
And all this time I've been thinking of you as Don Quixote, off jousting at windmills . . . ;D frobro- sg and cyn both make good points. I will only add .. well, in truth, I'll probably add quite a bit! First, don't take what we say as being overly negative, none of us have actually heard or played this, so maybe it's a gem of a thing. This product has not, as yet, been released from what I could tell on the website. And no price is listed. The price may well turn out to be a determining factor here. If it's $30, hey, buy one and try it out. That's a night drinking beer with the boys. . . If it's north of $50, well, then I'd have to hear and play one before I jumped into the pool. And, even at that, different guitar, different pickups, etc.- you're never really going to know that's what it would do on your guitar. So it's a bit of a crapshoot even at that. And, bear in mind that you could probably DIY one for substantially less than whatever SD is charging. It wouldn't sport those gee-whizzy connectors, though.
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Post by Yew on Dec 17, 2010 6:19:56 GMT -5
Just a little off topic for a second, If it gets too big ill make a true topic for it..
is there any simple passive way to add a buffer into a guitar cavity? as bufffering the cable capacitance could work well as part of a solo switch...
EDIT. I suppose you could use a Negative feedback operational amplifier (with a pot in, to give you a gain control) but that would still need power... Makes you wonder when the first amp with Phantom power will be made....
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Post by sumgai on Dec 17, 2010 14:55:11 GMT -5
... Makes you wonder when the first amp with Phantom power will be made.... Done, a thousand times. But you won't catch any big-time manufacturer doing it - their "Risk Management Team" won't let them. Seems that the first time someone gets even a little tiny shock, no matter what the reason, the sad sack who suffered the setback will engage an ambulance chaser, and we're off to the races. Besides which, if you forget to use the correct cable (3 conductor, or 2-conductor w/ground), the thing won't work. Not many guys I know of that want to carry around nothing but 3-wire cords - additional weight and additional cost notwithstanding..... Great idea, but in order for it to catch on big, you'll have to not just give them away, you'll have to include hot and cold running women in each and every package, just to overcome the average player's reluctance to try something new/risky/of dubious benefit/expensive like this. And you'd have to warrant them against their own stupidity, when they forgot everything you told them, and used a standard cord anyways, then complained loud and long to any- and everybody who'd listen. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to win. HTH sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 17, 2010 18:29:29 GMT -5
A carefully chosen transformer could help with the cable capacitance. This solution has a few issues, though:
1). Good transformers can get pricey fast. 2). They're big, though I don't think it would have to be any bigger than 9V battery. 3). (best for last) This would be a step-down transformer, which would reduce the output volume. Kind of the opposite of the point for a solo switch.
Phantom powering a typical active guitar with the stereo jack power switching is relatively easy and we've discussed it here before. I don't think anybody here's tried it. JohnH's cable buffers are pretty darn close, though.
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Post by ozboomer on Jan 6, 2011 22:06:06 GMT -5
is there any simple passive way to add a buffer into a guitar cavity? as bufffering the cable capacitance could work well as part of a solo switch... No doubt, you would've been pointed to JohnH's excellent JFET Buffer and buffer cable posting by now... While not passive, the buffer can be built very small and you can use button batteries to power the gadget... or, do as JohnH has done and make a "powered" special cable+box so everything is outside the guitar and usable with any guitar...
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Post by Yew on Jan 10, 2011 14:37:34 GMT -5
then there are *signiature* models that will come too, maybe a capacitor in to change the tone?
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Jan 10, 2011 15:56:45 GMT -5
then there are *signiature* models that will come too, maybe a capacitor in to change the tone? Woman Tone in a pot? (AKA it's called a tone pot! ;D) Kirk Hammet Signature? (AutoWah) Hell, I would buy a Jeff Beck Signature...
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Post by 4real on Jan 13, 2011 0:58:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure why guitar players tend against putting a battery in a guitar to take on active electronics. I know I've always avoided it except where absolutely necessary such as with a sustainer...but really a tiny preamp should draw such a little amount of power that it would last months... I think there is a lot of room for things like active tone and volume controls as well as a clearer sound or more power to drive an amp into crunch. Why one would need to have phantom power I'm not sure... ... That said, all my guitars are passive, but considering making my latest guitar active. I like the sound but it would be good to ahve something that would not only buffer the output but bring up the volume of the single coils to match the HB output...An active tone control might be cool...not just cutting highs, I imagine a lot could be done with this kind of thing...mid boost, high boost...perhaps on a multiposition switch or something. ... In terms of 'battery access'...if you only need to change a battery every few months, it could be done with string changing...so this means it could be put under a strat's scratch plate. In my tele, a battery fitted in the standard control cavity under the tone pot and gives easy access... I was able to get the circuit under the pickup...but you can see even with a lot of switch wiring, there is still room. One reason I am considering it on my new strat is that I made an easy access battery compartment for an envisioned sustainer and or piezo system that was not installed.... It might be tricky to see...but I used a grooving router bit to cut a battery sized hole to take a 9volt on it's side behind the tremolo block...it press fits and the whole thing is covered by the trem cover or could be used without. Now that I have a battery in the guitar...I feel a bit odd not using it. I had all kinds of ideas over the years...a small op-amp circuit even fits into the cavity used for the jack plug cover on this strat.
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