zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 4, 2011 20:37:50 GMT -5
looking for advice on wiring ops for my 2010 MIM HH Strat.
i'm replacing the stock HH's with new boutique pups. i figure now is a good time to customize the switching to get the most out of em i can.
currently it has the stock 5-way switch for these ops:
Position 1. Full Bridge Humbucking Pickup Position 2. Both Inside Single Coils Position 3. Both Full Humbucking Pickups Position 4. Outer Coil of Neck Pickup Position 5. Full Neck Humbucking Pickup Master Volume Tone 1. (Neck Pickup) Tone 2. (Middle Pickup and Middle/Bridge Combination) [can't really tell a diff with this control]
was leaning towards push/pull 500Ohm pots and maybe a 5-way mega switch. thinking outloud ... could be those positions are all one can get from 2 HH's ? beats me.
well, open to suggestions/schematics
q1. should one go a head and put in shielding paint and pickguard shield or is it necessary with humbuckers?
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Post by jcgss77 on Feb 4, 2011 22:07:14 GMT -5
zirltzn, Welcome to GN2! As far as a wiring scheme, the best thing you can do is go and browse in this section of threads, I am sure that you will find all you are looking for already hashed out. maybe a 5-way mega switch. thinking outloud ... could be those positions are all one can get from 2 HH's ? beats me. When it comes to wiring schemes, you are not limited to just a pup selector switch. As you will find here, the sky is the limit and you can do pretty much anything by adding just a few switches. This is very much dependent on if you want a stock look for your strat though. You need to decide if you want an original look, or a guitar with a switch for any occasion. was leaning towards push/pull 500Ohm pots This value depends on if you like a brighter sound or darker. As you may well know, 500k will make your guitar brighter, and 250k will allow for a darker sound. q1. should one go a head and put in shielding paint and pickguard shield or is it necessary with humbuckers?
I would not be shy about shielding a guitar with hums, as the wiring could still be subject to interference. Also be sure to star ground your guitar, and install the blocking capacitor especially if you use a tube amp and/or gig. If you provide which sounds you are looking for, we can provide a schematic or a link to one that you are looking for.
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Post by newey on Feb 4, 2011 23:08:04 GMT -5
zirltzn- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2! Your guitar sounds like one of the many variations on a HH Strat, what used to be called a Big Apple Strat. The Big Apple offered the same coil selections as yours does. The "stock switch" it uses to get these combinations is, in fact, the 4P5T Superswitch™. You don't need a MegaSwitch™; you've already got a Superswitch™. The selection of combos you have is a nice cross-section of what is available with 2 HBs, but you certainly can have more if you want. As jcgss points out, it really depends on what you want. What your set-up doesn't do, and what you may wish to add, include some or all of the following: - Out-of-Phase options with both HBs or with split coils from each.
- Intra-pickup series/parallel and inter-pickup series/parallel.
- SC split from bridge HB
- Various combinations of a SC and a HB.
Of course, you must also consider how "switchy" you want the guitar to be; adding more switches adds complexity.
There are many options. One that comes to mind, since you mentioned using push/pull pots, would be to add 3 of them, on each of the controls. Two of these would connect the 2 coils of each HB in series/parallel (i.e., intra-pickup), the third could do phase switching. The 5-way selections would stay as is.
Alternatively, you could use 2 P/P pots to split the neck HB and bridge HB, respectively, to SC mode, and then use the existing 5-way switch for some series/parallel options and/or phase options. This would allow for the "SC and HB together" sounds you don't get now, in addition to other things on the Superswitch.
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 5, 2011 17:16:28 GMT -5
zirltzn, Welcome to GN2! As far as a wiring scheme, the best thing you can do is go and browse in this section of threads, I am sure that you will find all you are looking for already hashed out. maybe a 5-way mega switch. thinking outloud ... could be those positions are all one can get from 2 HH's ? beats me. When it comes to wiring schemes, you are not limited to just a pup selector switch. As you will find here, the sky is the limit and you can do pretty much anything by adding just a few switches. This is very much dependent on if you want a stock look for your strat though. You need to decide if you want an original look, or a guitar with a switch for any occasion. was leaning towards push/pull 500Ohm pots This value depends on if you like a brighter sound or darker. As you may well know, 500k will make your guitar brighter, and 250k will allow for a darker sound. q1. should one go a head and put in shielding paint and pickguard shield or is it necessary with humbuckers?
I would not be shy about shielding a guitar with hums, as the wiring could still be subject to interference. Also be sure to star ground your guitar, and install the blocking capacitor especially if you use a tube amp and/or gig. If you provide which sounds you are looking for, we can provide a schematic or a link to one that you are looking for. thanks for the push to do the shielding. easy enough to do, just needed a bit more push. i'm no expert but from an electron perspective i think its the thing to do. my strat isn't a vintage SSS type with that historical vintage sound/tone. so adding shielding paint and shielded guard will work for me. good point about the ground and blocking cap. i would like to be able to get "in addition to current pup selection" some parallel & series with these coils that i've read about. i'm new to the world of guitar but not new to a brain that resonates with the "sound world". so if i could get 3-4 more sound positions from me two pups, i would like that option if possible. thanks!
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 5, 2011 17:24:47 GMT -5
zirltzn- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2! Your guitar sounds like one of the many variations on a HH Strat, what used to be called a Big Apple Strat. The Big Apple offered the same coil selections as yours does. The "stock switch" it uses to get these combinations is, in fact, the 4P5T Superswitch™. You don't need a MegaSwitch™; you've already got a Superswitch™. The selection of combos you have is a nice cross-section of what is available with 2 HBs, but you certainly can have more if you want. As jcgss points out, it really depends on what you want. What your set-up doesn't do, and what you may wish to add, include some or all of the following: - Out-of-Phase options with both HBs or with split coils from each.
- Intra-pickup series/parallel and inter-pickup series/parallel.
- SC split from bridge HB
- Various combinations of a SC and a HB.
Of course, you must also consider how "switchy" you want the guitar to be; adding more switches adds complexity.
There are many options. One that comes to mind, since you mentioned using push/pull pots, would be to add 3 of them, on each of the controls. Two of these would connect the 2 coils of each HB in series/parallel (i.e., intra-pickup), the third could do phase switching. The 5-way selections would stay as is.
Alternatively, you could use 2 P/P pots to split the neck HB and bridge HB, respectively, to SC mode, and then use the existing 5-way switch for some series/parallel options and/or phase options. This would allow for the "SC and HB together" sounds you don't get now, in addition to other things on the Superswitch.
hey newey, the list you made, yes i would like to be able to add those positions without adding an extra switch if possible. you see my reply to jcgss77 as to what i was thinking i would like for extra options. i think maybe your list encompasses that? what is SC mode? is that "split coil"? if i'm interpreting you correctly, 3 new push/pulls would allow me to keep my current selections and add the ones you listed without the need of a new or extra switch? i like your idea of replacing my pots with push/pull to accomplish this. that way i wouldn't need to drill extra holes. though the holes would be in a pickguard which is easily replaced for 30-40.00. thanks for saving me some money letting me know i don't need to go buy a EP-078 megas switch. thank you
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Post by newey on Feb 5, 2011 17:30:38 GMT -5
You can get some, but not all, of the things I mentioned with 3 P/Ps. To get everything at once would require more switching.
By "SC Mode", I meant "single-coil" mode, which here is the same as a split coil. Generally, we use "HB" for humbucker and "SC" for single coil, to describe the 2 basic types of pickups.
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 5, 2011 18:27:12 GMT -5
btw, what is a good shielding paint? hope it is easy enough to pick up a small can at home depot with some cheap brushes?
sorry for all the "quote" replies above. just saw this "quick reply?
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Post by newey on Feb 5, 2011 19:09:29 GMT -5
You might want to take a look at this scheme, since you have a Superswitch (or, at least, that's what were assuming you have, based on the current wiring and the Fender diagram). The "Mode" switch could be a P/P pot. This gives a nice selection of series and parallel combos: Fobits "8 Tones from Dual HBs"The mode switch only affects Pos. 1-3 on the 5-way switch; Pos. 4 gives all 4 coils in parallel (a favorite of mine, BTW) and Pos. 5 gives the std 2 HBs. regardless of the mode switch position.
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Post by 4real on Feb 5, 2011 21:02:26 GMT -5
That's an interesting scheme there with the 8 tone 2HB thing....worth considering...depends on thee kind of sounds that interest you... I've been playing with an idea of the "spin select"...some of the idea comes from here www.smitspickups.com/coiltapping.htmand he has a neat dual HB splitter that might be of interest... I used a 250K pot on a SD JB HB pup that works well. This will split one pickup to either coil by pulling up on the control, and the knob the amount of split (and so noise canceling) that gives a nice range of sounds similar to a lower brighter HB sound like parallel. Pulling up as described as above will split the neck pickup but not vary the HB effect...so a lot of 'stuff' in one control there. Using something like this to handle the 'splits'...a super switch could probably handle a lot of other sounds on the selector...wire one tone control as a master, the other for this kind of thing... You might consider all the sounds you can get from the Jp or 22-dual wiring's. It all depends on the kinds of sounds you are after. The broadbucker thing is interesting, the half OoP been working really well for me recently and thinking of modding a few other guitars with this.
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Post by newey on Feb 5, 2011 21:54:24 GMT -5
Well, you can certainly get the cheap brushes at the Big Orange Box. But I doubt you'll find shielding paint, it's pretty much a specialty item and I've not seen it except through guitar suppliers. Stew-Mac carries it.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the copper tape with conductive adhesive, which Stew Mac also carries.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Feb 5, 2011 23:54:05 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Feb 6, 2011 0:42:20 GMT -5
Possibilities abound for an HH Strat, and some fine choices are offered above. In thinking about options, you can look at adapting 'Les Paul' types schemes, as well as those intended for Strats. No one can tell you what you should do, but I'd like to explain what I would do if it was my guitar: This is my favorite Les Paul wiring: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=4571The scheme is very adaptable, and would translate easily to a single volume and two tone controls. I worked out a few switching variations, including one with a 5-way superswitch, which you already have. Single coil/humbucker transition is obtained using the tone controls. It would need no extra switching or push/pulls, and if you already have 500k pots and a superswitch, the only extra parts are a couple of capacitors. The tone controls, one for each pup, would each transition from humbucker rolled down, to full humbucker, to single coil. The 5-way switch would then take whatever is so set on each pickup, and offer bridge, BxN series out of phase, B+N parallel, BxN series and Neck. 16 combos in total just a thought J
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 6, 2011 3:31:38 GMT -5
You can get some, but not all, of the things I mentioned with 3 P/Ps. To get everything at once would require more switching. By "SC Mode", I meant "single-coil" mode, which here is the same as a split coil. Generally, we use "HB" for humbucker and "SC" for single coil, to describe the 2 basic types of pickups. could this "more switching" be accomplished by replacing my current 5-way with a different switch or would i need two switches?
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Post by newey on Feb 6, 2011 8:15:33 GMT -5
You (presumably) already have a Superswitch in there, and there's nothing more robust available. And 5 switch positions means 5 choices, so to get more than 5 means more switching.
An idea I've been mulling over (which hasn't yet seen the light of day in the form of an actual schematic) would be to use a Superswitch plus a rotary switch. The rotary would replace one of the tone controls, and the other tone would be a master tone.
The idea is a variation on the "double-barrel" switching found on the original G-Nutz site. That scheme uses a Superswitch plus an ordinary Strat switch. But adding an extra lever switch is a tricky modification; I thought the rotary would be a good substitute so as to keep a stock look.
As in the Double Barrel switching, Pos 1 on the 5-way is a bypass to the rotary, and the other 4 positions give various options. The rotary would be a 2P4T, thus giving 4 more options on the rotary with the 5-way set to position 1.
But that's just a thought at this point, not a fully realized scheme.
Fobit's scheme (linked to above) could also be expanded by using one or two more push/pulls- one is for his mode switch, another could do out-of-phase, a third could be used for a "direct out" bypassing the controls- those things are modular and could be easily added to his scheme. Other options are also possible there.
We still don't really know what you want, what sort of music you play, is this for stage or studio use, etc . . .
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 6, 2011 13:49:25 GMT -5
Well, you can certainly get the cheap brushes at the Big Orange Box. But I doubt you'll find shielding paint, it's pretty much a specialty item and I've not seen it except through guitar suppliers. Stew-Mac carries it. Personally, I'm a big fan of the copper tape with conductive adhesive, which Stew Mac also carries. stew-mac it is then ...
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 6, 2011 14:16:37 GMT -5
www.smitspickups.com/coiltapping.htmthat is some cool info. i'll need to read that a few times and compare to newey, et. el., ideas they mentioned also. i could do a mini-switch if needed though i would prefer for push/pots to act as a mini/toggle. >For "variable" split/tap choices for each pickup, you would need to install a separate push-pull pot for the neck pickup. i'm leaning towards a push/pull pot for the neck pup too. only from an experimenters option and not an academic one. >>NOTE- ...only 1 wire needs to be run from the switch to the ground. thanks for the heads up >I used a 250K pot on a SD JB HB pup that works well. just curious why not a 500K pot for the HB? you're using the 250K for a darker tone than what a 500K would give? >>It all depends on the kinds of sounds you are after. to early in my guitar learning journey to say exactly. after getting her setup with these options and experimenting, my head/ears will find those sounds that work for me. i just knew there were more options than what the stock strat HH 5-way was giving me so i want to experiment. very interesting ideas. a lot of good info to ponder before i heat up the iron. you folks read my mind on all this which has been a great help for sure!!
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 6, 2011 14:18:24 GMT -5
that is going to come in quite handy, mucho gracias!
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 6, 2011 14:43:04 GMT -5
Possibilities abound for an HH Strat, and some fine choices are offered above. This is my favorite Les Paul wiring: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=4571The scheme is very adaptable, and would translate easily to a single volume and two tone controls. I worked out a few switching variations, including one with a 5-way superswitch, which you already have. Single coil/humbucker transition is obtained using the tone controls. It would need no extra switching or push/pulls, and if you already have 500k pots and a superswitch, the only extra parts are a couple of capacitors. The tone controls, one for each pup, would each transition from humbucker rolled down, to full humbucker, to single coil. The 5-way switch would then take whatever is so set on each pickup, and offer bridge, BxN series out of phase, B+N parallel, BxN series and Neck. 16 combos in total just a thought J thanks for the link. 16 combos by adding some caps, thats very interesting. will study thread and wrap me head around it. love the idea of so many opts with such minor tweaks too. thank you
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Post by 4real on Feb 6, 2011 20:23:03 GMT -5
Well...this is more of a modular appraoch...but you only have so many controls and push pulls are only dpdt so that's a limit...a super-switch though opens things up a lot being 4pdt.
The problem there is that you only have 3 pots...so if two controls are for variable splits...you lose the tone control.
The version suggested will do a variable split on the bridge HB with the brighter bridge most coil selected, or the sweeter inner coil which are quite different in themselves, and in combination...plus, give you the variable thing. And, in the same control, split the neck pup to the coil of your choice, but only that split. This is not such a bad compromise and a lot from one pot and simple switch.
No...you might have to read some of the threads on it...my strat and such. It's not working as a volume control on the whole pickup, but a volume control on just one coil...with the switch the other. Version 3 of mine, I added a cap into one position to get a different effect on the spin when up.
So...when I used a 500K pot, you got full Hb pretty much at 2-3 on the dial...so the control was wasted, 250K is a good value, even lower might be better and linear as well...but then where are you going to find that in a push pull pot. Besides, all you are going to do is load the coil being cut...it sounds much the same on full Hb as it did without the control.
Having the neck split in this way sounds quite good, pick the better coil to split to in that mode and sounds good with the split neck...perhaps take a nod to it being noise canceling too. Then you could use the one control to say have a nice neck split rhythm sound and a HB sound on the bridge, or something mid way between SC and HB...
But just tossing about ideas...
Well...that's what this place is about. Any guitar can only do so much, but learning what kinds of things you like and what works practically (preferably without hacking up a good guitar) and for what you play or expect to is the way to go.
Bear in mind, that with a lot of options, a lot are going to sound the same...my new strat has 30+ selections. In a recent thread I used it to compare the HOoP thing N+B with the M+B and surprised to find that they are very much the same character.
Also consider that some HB's "split' better than others...none are going to sound like a true single coil either...the location and the fact that they have an opposite magnetic field right next to them (even if the coil is off) makes a huge difference. But some, particularly hot ones, can sound really good and the variable split idea can dial in a bit of the other coil if the full split is a little too much.
As a player, I'd be keeping an eye on having 5 great usable sounds in a logical order on the selector.
My HSS strat is N,N+M,N+B,M+B,B to that I can use the spin select on the Bridge Pup effecting the top three positions, I can use the HOoP thing on the neck pup to alter the bottom three. So, the selector can be prepared for a given song perhaps and everything is in a logical order. In the series mode, most positions are similar but darker and louder...plus it has some unusual all three positions. Generally though, the guitar is used with all pots down and varying the spit to taste, generally a full split to the inner coil for a more balanced strat sound...then I can turn up the HB for leads and a thicker sound, even with the volume control already on full.
Not sure if John's thread also includes sounds...but listening to the options available on some of these "Jimmy page" like mods, or the descriptions of such 2xHB schemes like the similar 22-dual might give you an idea of what is possible with a 2xHB scheme.
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 7, 2011 1:04:05 GMT -5
>>We still don't really know what you want, what sort of music you play, is this for stage or studio use, etc . . . blusey-jazz, pink floyd's rhythm/lead guitar type, dark appalachian blues, larry laLonde's playing in primus, rory gallagher, etc. sometimes i just like banging on the strings movin the swith around just to see what i'll hear. the more options the better. > (presumably) already have a Superswitch in there, and there's nothing more robust available. And 5 switch positions means 5 choices, so to get more than 5 means more switching. let's see if i can get an image or two for you to see that switch: 5-way switch view 1 5-way switch view 2
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Post by JohnH on Feb 7, 2011 4:45:41 GMT -5
Good pictures - but how many lugs are we seeing there? I think Im seeing 4 groups of 4, while superswitches have 4 groups of 6. Could it be a different switch?
And, for the record, can you read the values of the pots? 250k or 500k?
cheers
John
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Post by 4real on Feb 7, 2011 6:52:32 GMT -5
Looks like a superswitch, maybe count the lugs for us to be sure...should be plenty of options then without too much expense.
Cool...
Sounds like you'd enjoy a bunch of options. I'd go the push pull pots...you can see my guitar new HSS strat ended up with 30+ selections in it.
HH guitars a bit different, but there is always something a bit straty about the sound of a strat.
What pups do you have? My Seymour duncan JB in the bridge splits really well and sounds on a par with single coils...sounds really good and generally have that as the default even if not entirely noiseless.
On my LP, I quite like the inner coil split...gives a bit of quack even on that guitar.
If you do the 'phase' switch thing...you might consider the 1/2 phase mod...worked really well in my strat...only requires a 0.01 cap...so might like to try that for a few cents and compare. Not as drastic a phase sound, but would give you some percussive options for rhythm work like floyd and gallager might do...sounds good with slide too, kind of drobo-ish.
Parallel switching is also something to consider perhaps...you only have so many controls though. This will give your HB's a much lighter SC sound while still being noise canceling...but you can't have everything! Again pups differ, but my LP's parallel local sound is pretty good, sounds a lot like a split but noise canceling...again thinking more percussive sound.
If wanting to go the other way...the broadbucker is a really interesting dark sound and loud...all 4 coils in series...so one huge HB in effect.
Again, I'd be having a listen to some of those sound samples to get a feel for the kinds of sound that others have been getting from these kinds of options. I'm considering a new computer at the moment so I can share some things like that, but alas at the moment, not practical...but there are lots of great options and most are simple, reversible or tweak-able...so may as well go to town off of a general scheme.
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 7, 2011 14:45:39 GMT -5
Good pictures - but how many lugs are we seeing there? I think Im seeing 4 groups of 4, while superswitches have 4 groups of 6. Could it be a different switch? all, for the record, can you read the values of the pots? 250k or 500k? cheers John the numbers on the tone pots are "CTS 38950 1020" via me eyes. and by the time i thought about it after restringing the strat i hadn't tested the Ohms via my meter. argh! here are some more images to help regarding the lugs question: bridge pot: switch view-1: switch view-2: switch view-3: switch view-4: switch view-5: view of pickguard underside controls: cavatity has some shielding but i think i'll paint it anyway:
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 7, 2011 15:49:42 GMT -5
and no, i don't play on stage or studio. i'm just a beginner taking lessons with only one guitar and trying to find what my ears like. its my first guitar and GC guy talked me into it. i liked the idea it wasn't classic strat and a bit different. fits my personality i guess. but, i had no idea i wasn't going to like the pups and such. so, what's a guy like me to do -- rebuild it a bit till i like what i hear. also a great way to get educated about the guitar and kinda bond with it, if that makes any sense.
>>Sounds like you'd enjoy a bunch of options.
maybe too many at this point. too much of a newbie to know any better.
What pups do you have?
Bare Knuckle Pickups WCR Guitar Pickups
narrowed it down to these two shops as me ears like em. i was going to put in SD hotrod set (SH-2 jazz & SH-4 ) but my ears just didn't click to em as much as a few from the above two shops. i do like the SD pearly gates though and still might get a set.
if doing the parallel switching noise-cancelling, does one need to change the polarity? i read that somewhere recently. i'm almost certain the WCR pups are paf ... at least the magnet i used shows that.
i'll add your "1/2 phase" to me notes and come up with a modification to start with. as you say, most are simple and reversible.
a lot of good ideas to think about. i got a couple extra pickguards and plenty of breadboards to hook some ideas together before putting it into the strat.
cheers
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Post by 4real on Feb 7, 2011 15:58:20 GMT -5
Cool...that's your super switch, the last lugs were hiding at the bottom as I suspected. If using new push pulls the pots will need to be replaced but it would be good to know what's in there to order replacements that suit. If really keen...this site has 250 HH pup wirings...most are typical gibson like 3 way selector and 4 control formats but there are a lot of super switch and rotary options. Look for diagrams that have 4x5 way selector switches illustrated as this is the super switch... www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/index_e.htm
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zirltzn
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Post by zirltzn on Feb 7, 2011 23:12:29 GMT -5
4real, thanks for the link!!
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Post by JohnH on Feb 17, 2011 4:10:57 GMT -5
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