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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 2:34:18 GMT -5
Hello, i just noticed yesterday smth ultra weird not found in the other strat-type (Aria) guitar i have and also not found in popular pups from major makers. The pole spacing from center pole low E->center pole high E is - bridge : 52mm - middle : 50 mm - neck : 48 mm !!! So it varies between F-spaced and gradually ends up in neck to normal spacing. I fit a dimarzio hs-3 in the neck position and (besides giving me trouble to fit, due to extra size of this pup - i had to slightly file the pup hole about 1mm all around) it also seems to have lost alignment to the strings! It looks kind of misaligned. Dimarzio, unfortunately does not give precise dimension on their site, as to know if i bought a neck or bridge hs-3, but Seymour Duncan which does have this info (i looked for YJM fury) ( www.seymourduncan.com/products/dimensionpages/stk-s10m.shtml ) gives about 52.6 mm pole to pole for the *neck* position. Which is clearly F-spaced. Anyways, from this, i started to respect the single coils on the guitar which were already loaded on the pickguard. But then again, it cannot be anything special, since i bought the body 100 USD (alder) here : cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOADED-SONIC-BLUE-BODY-FOR-FENDER-STRATOCASTER-NECK_W0QQitemZ180622234190QQcategoryZ41406QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m506QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DNGRI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D8%26pmod%3D180604419129%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6936378382380389891So i guess pickguard, electronics and pups were not that great. That's why i tried to "fatten" the tone by installing the hs-3 on the neck (+ for the hum canceling which it provides) Anyway, what is the true story behind pole string alignment? Is it good? Mandatory to have? My other strat-type (Aria) has a solid 52mm spacing for all pups, i'll check out later in the evening and give more info on this, cause today morning it seemed that at least the middle pickup was in perfect alignment (the other two are dimarzio fast track, so i couldn't tell), i'll do exact measurements in the evening. Thanx for any info!
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Post by newey on Feb 8, 2011 6:18:33 GMT -5
This comes down to the difference between Fender and Gibson string spacing. Back in the day, before you had all these pickup makers, and before Fender made HSS Strats, folks would cram Gibby HBs into Strats to make a HSS. At the bridge position, the wider Fender spacing (52mm) meant that the Gibson poles were too narrow.
So the F-spaced HB was created. Then along came Floyd Rose trems, which need 52mm at the bridge. So along came f-spaced single coils as well.
Personally, I've never noticed any difference sound-wise if the spacing is a bit off. If you get to the situation where the high and low E are spaced outside of the poles completely, I'm sure it could make a difference.
Generally, F-spaced pickups are used only at the Bridge position. On some guitars, they can be used at the neck (or middle) position if the nut is wider than 43mm (1 11/16 inches). If your Aria has 52mm all the way, I'm guessing it's got a wider nut.
If your middle pickup is 50mm, that's a bit odd. Haven't seen that before.
Anyway, while I'm sure that you can get a million different opinions on this, I wouldn't worry too much, unless it's way off.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 6:32:54 GMT -5
Thanx, The neck top (bass) E is outside the pole. "A" is slightly misaligned, and from "D" and below it is rather OK. And i cannot see how this can be avoided when the hs-3 is f-spaced. And i searched the net for standard-spaced dimarzio/SD single coils-sized and i didn't find anything.
Tone-wise i didn't notice anything. The bass E is exactly as it is supposed to sound. Very gentle, clean sound even distorted. (yngwie stuff!!)
I'll check precise dimensions/measurements later in the evening, thx, stay tuned!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 7:31:01 GMT -5
Just checked on the ebay where i bought the neck : cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-FINGERBORAD-SCALLOPED-MAPLE-ONE-PICECE-GUITAR-NECK-/320649211705?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item4aa82eaf39Its a 42mm nut.... So i am puzzled as to what ppl are supposed to do in this situation. I need some single coil below (<=50mm) but there are only f-spaced out there. Also, its a weird coincidence that my strat body which i purchased independently and without being concerned about bridge/nut width, came with the *correct* pickups (52mm->50mm->48mm) as to seat exactly under the strings. Should i relocate the hs-3 to the bridge and go search for a 48mm single coil for the neck?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 9:26:46 GMT -5
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Post by Yew on Feb 8, 2011 10:09:39 GMT -5
If you like the sound, then nothing else matters..
Malcom young from acdc has the pickup from the neck of his old gretsch in the bridge position, and he sounds good
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 10:31:29 GMT -5
Point is i damaged slightly the pickguard. It would be nice if there was a way to restore the shapes of the pickup sockets.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 12:33:37 GMT -5
Update, just measured the two stratoids Aria nut width : 42 mm New custom strat nut width : 42 mm Aria bridge from E to E (measured exactly at the bridge, not the bridge pickup) : 56mm New custom strat bridge from E to E (measured exactly at the bridge, not the bridge pickup) : 52.5 So, that means that effectively i have .... GIBSON-spacing? ? Also i noticed clean the neck pickup, at down strokes the sound is weaker than up-strokes.... it seems i have a problem with the f-spaced dimarzio hs-3....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 12:56:44 GMT -5
After a quick search on ebay, it seems that the majority of non-floyd rose bridges have this 52.5 E to E spacing. Also a previous search pointed out that the majority of single coils is F-spaced.
So, if i understand correctly, from the two above, we can deduce that THERE IS NO WAY TO BUILT A CORRECT STRAT (at least as far as the neck pup in concerned) THESE DAYS!!! (Unless one puts all rails or humbuckers on their strats...)
People, pls, tell me where i am wrong, i must be wrong somewhere along the lines!
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Post by sumgai on Feb 8, 2011 14:01:08 GMT -5
pyrros, You're not wrong, just confused.... but that's better than being wrong, isn't it? ;D So far as I know, and I've been going under this assumption for a very long time, the original Strat had a string spacing of 2.06 (2 1/8") inches, or about 52.3mm. This is measured at the point where the strings cross the bridge saddles, not at the pickups. This is the number used to determine "Fender string spacing", or F-spacing. (Gibson spacing is a bit closer, and sorry to say, I don't have any personaly experience with the number. We'll take in on faith, and on the Internet's good word, that it's right close to 1.96 inches, or 50mm.) ((Further note: Upon research, I find that some folks seem to think those numbers are off a bit. Well, I'm a betting man, and I'd wager that they measured their own guitars, and went from inside of string to inside of string, or they went from outside of string to outside of string. Neither number would be correct. (And on my axe, the difference between those two, incorrect, numbers is nearly 1.75mm!) The correct distance is between the centers of the two E strings, or to be more precise, the centers of the two outer-most saddles... but that can be difficult to measure, too. The way I do it? Measure both the inside and the outside distances, and take the median number between them - that's the proper string spacing number to work with.)) Now, when you start working your way towards the neck, that number is only your basic starting point. Some pickup sellers (retail shops or actual pickup makers, either way....) will not bother you with the details, they just say "F-spacing" or whatever, and then the pickup's position. They expect that you'll be mounting the pup in the standard position along the string, and they build it for that purpose. (i.e. Most folks don't go cutting new holes to put the pickups elsewhere.) A few sellers will give you the actual pole-spacing, and let you decide if that fits your needs. At that point, you can measure your string spacing at the pickup's position, and see what you need. If you and the pickup seller agree, then you're all set to go. Either way of purchasing is fine, I'm sure that 99.99% of all buyers are happy with these methods of making sure they're getting what they want/need. Now, as to your dilemma.... Sorry to say, even Fender has not adhered to their own specifications, vis-a-vis the Strat and more specifically, the string spacing. While the Fender name might be on the headstock, in fact guitars coming from various parts of the world have different string spacings. Some websites will tell you up front that their parts don't fit certain Strats made in (Country X), others will let you choose your exact Strat model (MIM, MIC, MIJ, MIA, etc.) But to put an end to your anxiety, in point of fact, the exact pole spacing is not hyper-critical. IOW, you have quite a bit of latitude, and even if the pole pieces are bit off, the string will still incite the pup to make a sound. As pointed out elsewhere here recently (by 4real), there's an art and a science to all of this, and we players are very fortunate that there is so much leeway in how things are accomplished, and yet we can still get sounds from our guitars. For this reason alone, my suggestions to you would be: 1) Listen to what your friends have on their guitars, and listen to their recommendations; 2) Read reviews and listen to on-line samples, if available; 3) If you're looking at popular models, find something used, in order to save money; (If you don't like 'em, you can re-sell them the same way!) 4) At the same time, be aware that pickup makers are always improving their products. Sometimes an older pickup (for sale as used) will have the same "name and model number", but it will have inferior tone, compared to todays' version. And sometimes it goes the other way - what we here in America call "they don't make 'em like the used to". In this case, it's really important to read up as much as you can about the particular pickups you want. HTH sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 15:47:13 GMT -5
Alright here are some pics of my guitar andthe various pickups to demonstrate the situation: Here is the new project strat with the hs-3 mounted on: Here is the hs-3 shown to be clearly misaligned in relation to the polepiece. Also here one can see the progression of the spacing from 52mm on the bridge pup to 50 mm to the middle. (the ex-neck 48mm spacing pup is shown next) Here is shown the neck 48mm pup along with the original Aria neck pickup which is 52mm spaced. As i said, i have indeed problems with the volume of the tone in 4th,5th,6th strings with the hs-3 neck pickup. Stroke down is weak, stroke up very loud. So still, having been convinced that a) the majority of "vintage" single coil pups (regardless of position) are 52mm spaced b) the majority of nuts are 42mm c) the majority of modern tremolo bridges are 52.2mm i cannot help but think that the above combination of "majorities" leads to a faulty guitar. Here is the Aria i was telling you: And here are Aria's perfect alignment !! (of the middle pup, fast tracks would always fit) And finally a close of the fretboard of the new strat:
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Post by 4real on Feb 8, 2011 17:18:37 GMT -5
Pretty blue...I like that... Nice looking neck...is it a 'fender' replacement part? I notice you don't have string trees and an normal nut. I don't have them on my tele, but I use and LSR that has small pads to stop sympathetic vibrations behind the nut...on my strat, even with staggered tuners, I needed string trees...see the thread as I used roller trees. One way to test if it makes a difference is to just damped the headstock strings to see if that helps... ... The alignment doesn't make a lot of difference...but it is a constant frustration with a lot of fender type guitars. The Aria is not a fender nor made to the same specs...and neither are the pups...so they fit on their guitar. If you want a wider fender bridge spacing, you need to get something that suits those measurements. On my Kahler guitars, the string spacing is adjustable and I set them as wide as I can. On my strat, the HB's outer poles are slightly inside the poles, everything else alighns. It is common with modern pups for the bridge pickup to be wider...on starts this pup is angled, and it is convenient to make them slightly wider...it allows them to put on a bit more wire as the bobbin is longer for every turn. Vintage fenders of course, all the pups were identical in shape and windings...so the angled pup would not align the same as everything else. The "import" bridge and nut spacings are generally smaller...you can see on my tele my LSR is a fraction over the neck on both sides because it is a squier neck. I've had this trouble when I used to use 'string saver' saddles on an old strat copy....the difference is a lot really...you need to get the 'import size'. You might want to find a more genuine sized bridge replacement perhaps. As for 'filling the holes'...this is the thing about modifying anything...you can remove material, but it cant generally be put back. Even a replacement pick-guard may have holes for a different or more 'legit' spec. But still...as far as sound goes, it makes little difference if the pups are slightly misaligned...you bend strings off centre after all without a huge 'dip' in response. The magnetic field has a lot more throw than that! EVH angled his HB dramatically because if the strings fall outside the entire pup coils...then you have a problem...hence the F-spaced HB. Generally with SC pups, including stacks...you want to adjust the pups away from the strings to avoid stratitis...the opposite is true of HB's that have equal and opposing magnetic pull on the strings. ... Aria is it seems got extra 'clever' with their guitars to get the alignment right. They have varied the width to account for the angle of the bridge pup and the decreasing string spacing. A lot of those preloaded pickguard things cheap are those cheap ceramic "belcat' pups...renown for bad LOL...low power and overly bright. Bridge pups on starts can be particularly bright and underpowered...the string has far less 'swing' as it gets towards the bridge...which is zero at the saddles of course. So, generally there is a trend towards hotter pups to compensate...of the HSS strat although that is a compromise in it's own way and you can loose some of the 'strat' sound and balance. The hotter pup is a good idea, but the balance with these cheap pups are going to be right off i'd think. You might think to consider a balanced set all round if your budget allows. I see that GFS is selling new noiseless pup designs called Neovins that are kind of cost effective and come in different 'flavours'...they look kind of stock but are apparently side by side. Otherwise, I have got a lot of my pups and tuners and such from a reseller from original fenders...sometimes on auction. My JB noiseless for instance and my tele's SCn I sat on autions till I could get what I wanted...you might even find a complete pickguard loaded from a new YJM strat perhaps...like this cgi.ebay.com/2010-USA-Fender-MALMSTEEN-Strat-LOADED-PICKGUARD-/190474367544?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2c59283238but then, you may need a fender spec bridge to suit...etc...but that's the way it is...things that 'look' like a strat will all be slightly different, even with fender branded guitars like squiers, MIJ, MIM, etc. Not all bodies and such are interchangeable, so you were lucky that your neck fitted so well. To get a real body off these guys, you still pay a few dollars more than 100, Part out places like the STRATosphere realized that by taking teh things apart, the parts were worth more separately than the gutiar new in one piece...ironic really. So...my pups are not only authentic JB's...but were taken out of a brand new JB strat...and the brridge pup is in someone elses strat now...somewhere else in the world...LOL
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Post by newey on Feb 8, 2011 20:10:02 GMT -5
Don't take this the wrong way, pyrros, but I think you're obsessing a bit about this.
Looking at your photos, the low E string is not centered, but it's still over the polepiece at least partially. I can't imagine that would affect the sound to any discernible degree.
There are too many variables at play to be able to tell if the difference you're hearing is due to the pole spacing or other factors. The pick attack is different on a downstroke than on the upstroke, and an upstroke sounds different even on an acoustic guitar.
Looking at your photos, the high E string on the bridge pickup looks to be similarly misaligned, although perhaps not as visually obvious since the string is much thinner. And per your description, those are the stock pickups in the stock pickguard. Yet, you're not complaining about the sound of that string . . .
When you widened the neck pup hole in the guard, you may have removed a bit more material at one end and exacerbated things a little more, but again, I doubt that's really making a difference sound-wise.
And, as was pointed out, you can't put material back in. If it really bothers you, you might try a new pickguard. A standard Fender one would probably fit the DM pickup just fine- but might not exactly fit your (probably) Asian-made Strat body.
I've done "pickguard fitment" on every guitar I've built, even stock Fender to stock Fender parts sometimes are off a little. Usually, it's just a matter of shaving a mm off the neck pocket area of the guard, or redrilling a couple of screw holes. So you can probably shoehorn another guard on there. Or, to be exact, you can send a tracing to a custom pickguard maker- I believe Warmoth will do one to a tracing for about $35 depending on the material you want.
But me, I'd just live with it. Or, move the pickup to the bridge and put a rail-type in the neck, again, if you're losing sleep over this issue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 0:27:29 GMT -5
thanx guys, i have some more questions, i'll have to research this a little bit. one thing i forgot to tell you, is that the black tremolo bridge on the Aria is a .... "after market" as well, since i had damaged the original bridge..... I dont think i have kept this old one, since it as 20 years ago. So i am not really sure about the spacing on the original. 4real, i have the URL of the neck above in a previous post. Maybe i will have to fit the ultra thin 48mm single coil on the neck again and do the experiment. Maybe i am getting a bit possessed, that's right! but when you start a project you want it getting done right, right? Anyways, newey, what you said is very correct, thats what i was thinking. I'll convert Aria to stock condition (with her original pups), move the hs-3 on the middle and put the fast track 1,2 in neck/bridge, BUT! with a replacement white cover!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 3:46:01 GMT -5
Checking today morning, i realized the volume pot of the blue strat does not work anymore. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! I am fed up, maybe i need some days off before i completely damage the thing!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 4:17:14 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 9, 2011 6:38:18 GMT -5
I always just slanted the single coils on an HSS...generally reverse slanted. But then I also went with a Schaller adjustable fixed roller bridge...
HTC1
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