Sustain any ideas?

[jerry]

Dec 10, 2012 15:07:28 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

[ringing one note in this life, and you'll find the string still vibrating in the next one.

Man! You don't want much, do ya? That's A LOT of sustain!

[jerry]

Dec 10, 2012 15:10:44 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

BTW Jerry, i raised the action, and now reads about 1.25mm @12th fret, high-E. It sounds much clearer/better now It just takes some practice to achieve the same speed as before. But it is definitely worth it. I suspect if fretwork was 100% perfect, i would live with 1mm @12th fret as well, but who cares

I delighted to hear that it worked well for you! Believe it or not, it won't take long for you to achieve the same playing speed with this slightly higher action . And another bonus; it's easy to play fast and sloppy with a really low action. But when you play with the action higher, your playing should be cleaner. (I'm not implying that your playing wasn't already clean, just that higher action forces better technique.)

It's like using fuzz, we can play sloppy and it sounds ok. But it may not sound so good when we turn the fuzz off. If we learn to play fast without fuzz, we'll generally sound good with or without it.

[jerry]

Dec 10, 2012 21:11:09 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I don't know how much reading of past postings/threads you did, before coughing up your own contributions, but the fact is, The NutzHouse is almost notorious for going off-topic, and only occasionally getting back on track.

I'm ok with that. It means that I'm likely fitting in ok. ;D

[4real]

Ta Dah....

Dec 10, 2012 15:10:44 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

BTW Jerry, i raised the action, and now reads about 1.25mm @12th fret, high-E. It sounds much clearer/better now It just takes some practice to achieve the same speed as before. But it is definitely worth it. I suspect if fretwork was 100% perfect, i would live with 1mm @12th fret as well, but who cares

Now try the pickup thing, that they sit under a particular node along the string does have an effect, especially with SC pups does make a difference)

BTW...I gave up guitar for a year, just too busy and jaded post 'band situation (like a 4 way marriage...to guys!)...ironically, it was also my last year at uni...doing a music degree!

[Deleted]

Dec 11, 2012 2:37:32 GMT -5 4real said:

Ta Dah....

Dec 10, 2012 15:10:44 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

BTW Jerry, i raised the action, and now reads about 1.25mm @12th fret, high-E. It sounds much clearer/better now It just takes some practice to achieve the same speed as before. But it is definitely worth it. I suspect if fretwork was 100% perfect, i would live with 1mm @12th fret as well, but who cares

Now try the pickup thing, that they sit under a particular node along the string does have an effect, especially with SC pups does make a difference)

BTW...I gave up guitar for a year, just too busy and jaded post 'band situation (like a 4 way marriage...to guys!)...ironically, it was also my last year at uni...doing a music degree!

Sorry i mixed a lot of things and caused confusion, cause i got a lot of things running in parallel. I was currently speaking about tweaking the Ibanez ARZ800 (les paul type, set-in neck, 2 active HB, the classic EMG 81/60 combination), while planning the next developments with the partscaster, since i decided i should not buy a new guitar but get my @$$ down to do a proper improvements with the partscaster and the other strat copy i have. I must have changed the set-up with the ibby at least 15-20 times since September, this time, after raising the action, i managed to hold 1 full day without lowering it down again, so its a good sign.

So, all my sustain problems with the partscaster strat were theoretical since i dont have the thing in my hands currently. But, the problem with this guitar is not pups, holding 6 secs sustain in 12th fret B, and only 4 secs in 12th fret G, is a clear indication that my problem is "constructional"-"physical" and not electro-magnetical. Bridge weight, improvements, and DEFINITELY headstock are a major target for modification.

When i had clamped one set of wrenches (by rope!!! not adhesive tape) to the back of the headstock i had seen dramatic improvement in sustain. So, neck construction/machine heads is the next target. ummm well... the next after the next i meant

[4real]

The headstock thing is certainly an effect, it changes the resonant frequency and sypathetic vibrations, but beware putting too much weight on the end of the neck and making it heavy. Generally a really good set of decent staggered locking tuners like schallers are enough. Add the string trees back in, preferably rollers as although you might not 'need them' they stop sympathetic vibrations by divideing the string behind the nut. Or, an LSR have dampers and make for good 'hight adjustment' but requries a permanent mod to teh fretboard...they are cool as the nut is held on with screws so height adjustable.

I'm not sure really there is a 'problem' with sustain is there, you just want 'long'...I'm not quite following. Anyway, any buzz, thin strings and all that are going to diminish such qualities...buzz means the strings are physically hitting the frets and so, you know, that can't be good!

[Deleted]

Dec 11, 2012 3:52:11 GMT -5 4real said:

The headstock thing is certainly an effect, it changes the resonant frequency and sypathetic vibrations, but beware putting too much weight on the end of the neck and making it heavy. Generally a really good set of decent staggered locking tuners like schallers are enough. Add the string trees back in, preferably rollers as although you might not 'need them' they stop sympathetic vibrations by divideing the string behind the nut. Or, an LSR have dampers and make for good 'hight adjustment' but requries a permanent mod to teh fretboard...they are cool as the nut is held on with screws so height adjustable.

I'm not sure really there is a 'problem' with sustain is there, you just want 'long'...I'm not quite following. Anyway, any buzz, thin strings and all that are going to diminish such qualities...buzz means the strings are physically hitting the frets and so, you know, that can't be good!

thanx man. i'd like you to ask you on the machine heads thing. Schaller staggered should be good to go right? The type that is used in American Deluxe strats. I also saw Gotoh and Grover same price range (70-90 EUR). Also some provider/seller is from AUS!!!! I didn;t see many sellers from europe....
About string trees i have two of them on DGBE, without them, high-E was the definite sitar sounding tone !! Roller ones, this type :

Now, buzz-wise, with the strat i had tried various configurations, even 11s strings without tweaking the truss rod, which resulted in huge action... no buzz well the sustain problem was there on some notes... (in the higher section of the fretboard).

and smth else... i have witnessed in almost *all* my guitars : 12th fret G, lasts shorter than B or E or D. And searching the net, that particular note/fret location is the most frequent as well. To the point i think, that if someones beats that problem, then the rest are no issue.

What is your best sustain, in terms of seconds in your axes? without the sustainer i mean!

[Deleted]

Hi!!

just got the two strats today from the tech in my home town : www.guitars.gr/ , fantastic job for half the money i would spend in Athens.

Also fitted an Bill Lawrence L500XL and a mini artec rails in bridge/neck over my nephew's Yamaha Pacifica and it all turned great!

I could not imagine a refret makes such a huge difference. Next step is increasing the "presence" (whetever that means) / sustain on the scalloped strat.

[sumgai]

Dec 10, 2012 21:46:07 GMT -5 jerry said:

Dec 10, 2012 21:11:09 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I don't know how much reading of past postings/threads you did, before coughing up your own contributions, but the fact is, The NutzHouse is almost notorious for going off-topic, and only occasionally getting back on track.

I'm ok with that. It means that I'm likely fitting in ok. ;D

BTW, I forgot to tell you... don't step in the gumbo, it gets pretty deep in here!

[gumbo]

Track???

What track??

[4real]

What is your best sustain, in terms of seconds in your axes? without the sustainer i mean!

3 days...oh, witherout the sustainer...

I'm not convinced of teh methodology and my tuner will be different from yours...

But, have thought about this...did you read the bridge discussion of ADSR

Attack Decay Sustain Release

the notion of 'sustain' is way to 'simjplistic' and as these things inter relate, it is not just a matter of 'time' and it's a bit hard to separate one elment from another withour evecting them all.

You might get a better fundamental sustain (the bit the tuner is reading) for instance, but the mix of adsr of the harmonics within the note will be effected.

My original Les paul is likely to have the best 'sustain' I'd imagine...but it has not had new strings for a very long time...anyway, this is something that one should consider to get a more sophisticated ideas of the notion of 'tone' which also includes the sustainer element and how some things effect others...there is a lot more than just 'sustain' or evn 'tone' or 'action' or any of these various elemetns and of course, each player and what suits the music will aslo be very diffferent. If you play with distortion or volume, pretty much infinite sustian with vibrato should be possible on an electric

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2012 4:19:26 GMT -5 4real said:

If you play with distortion or volume, pretty much infinite sustian with vibrato should be possible on an electric

hmm this works only if the fret work is sub-optimal. With perfect fret dressing is harder to achieve this.

[Deleted]

Anyway, just got home from the journey to home town. Plugged in the two guitars. It is almost fantastic. Great tones, great feel. The ocean blue strat, is really a new guitar. Fantastic. Same for the old (bought in 1984) Aria strat copy.

Sometime i will do a demo of them all.

Problem is, i really liked the light weight of the ocean strat. To the point that i would not like to ruin this of +1 sec of sustain. ;D

[4real]

Dec 30, 2012 12:27:13 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

Dec 29, 2012 4:19:26 GMT -5 4real said:

If you play with distortion or volume, pretty much infinite sustian with vibrato should be possible on an electric

hmm this works only if the fret work is sub-optimal. With perfect fret dressing is harder to achieve this.

I don't think so, though'sub optimal' is clearly a preconcieved value judgment. Hendrix took a razor to put a nick in his 15th fret to ply that note in 'foxy lady'...optimising' his guitars to play it.

Though, I seriously doubt that assertion.

The thing about ADSR is worthy of consideration as well, careful wnat you wish for. If that obsessed with 'sustain' you probably do need something like a sustainer which will simulate the sound of a very loud guitar! What music is requiring the holding of notes for +1 secs?

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2012 16:35:13 GMT -5 4real said:

Dec 30, 2012 12:27:13 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

hmm this works only if the fret work is sub-optimal. With perfect fret dressing is harder to achieve this.

I don't think so, though'sub optimal' is clearly a preconcieved value judgment. Hendrix took a razor to put a nick in his 15th fret to ply that note in 'foxy lady'...optimising' his guitars to play it.

Though, I seriously doubt that assertion.

The thing about ADSR is worthy of consideration as well, careful wnat you wish for. If that obsessed with 'sustain' you probably do need something like a sustainer which will simulate the sound of a very loud guitar! What music is requiring the holding of notes for +1 secs?

thanx, and again merry xmas and a happy new year.
I guess it was a perception of being firm on the quality of the guitar rather than the actual need for this long sustain. Just a feeling.

Now, with just a proper fret dressing, the fingers on the ocean scalloped strat just seem to fly. Weighs exactly 7 lbs 12 oz (7.75 lbs), = 3.5 Kg, which is like the average for strats. Putting some super heavy/quality tuning machines might change this.

Also, the sustain on G @12th fret improved, so now i perceive that as being acceptable, and no longer indicates a scrappy instrument.

May sometimes times its a magical balance, of many factors. And the more the guitarist likes the guitar the more good tunes are gonna come out of this.

Now, next step, is pulling out the full humbucker out from the bridge position (i have 3 other guitars which are HB-equiped), this is a dimarzio super distortion, which never blended well with the cheapo middle SC and the dimarzio HS-3 in the neck. I am going to put dimarzio HS-3 in the bridge, keep the middle SC and then put back the old (cheapo) SC in the neck. Those are hottish SC @7-8 KOhm. Or maybe buy another HS-3 for the neck, and put 500 KOhm pots to help brighten the tone a little bit.

The overall experiment went truly fine. With 155 euros, i have two new guitars!

[Deleted]

finally i did that. i put the old HS-3 in the bridge, and the stock cheapo SC in middle/neck respectively. With the shielding done 1.5 year back i didn't notice extensive buzzing, even with high amounts of distortion. Regarding tone, the dimarzio HS-3 sounds OK and distorts nice, but is not much better than the cheapo SC, which sound very good clean. Output-wise, the HS-3 is noticeably weaker than the SCs. I think i would just sell the HS-3 and the remaining old bridge SC in the bridge, or buy a decent set of noiseless SCs. I really like the sound of the SCs as opposed to the humbuckers. So much clarity.

[Deleted]

Something i thought today, a thing i have been reading online for ages but only today i was convinced : sustain = larger mass, less vibration of the guitar components.

I have this kramer 210 , which has incredible sustain, and by this i mean almost double the seconds i get from my ibanez arz800 : .

The reason why : the kramer weighs 10 pounds. It extremely robust and tight, and when i ring a note i can barely feel the neck moving...

With the scalloped malmsteen copy??? The neck literally dances along the note ringing. Also "resonates" better, which is another sign that resonance is reversely analogous to sustain. Ok, the kramer lacks in attack a little bit, the sound sounds so compressed, but the sustain is huge. I can listen to the guitar only with the headphones, no amp involved and this beast can ring e.g. a G @12th fret, G string for more than 10 seconds (and *still* be heard). Few guitars can do this, according to my limited experience.

During today's tests, also i scrapped this brass trem block and replaced the original cast-zinc back in. No difference in sound. At all. dunno... i started again to *not* like this guitar, sounds so thin.... my other strat (Aria... YES! the one with the nut dimension drama!!) sounds a lot beefier.

Don't know... if i dont get fired or anything ... maybe i'll consider buying a true fender some time in the future.