The Strat SP hss - 85 sounds, no extra knobs

[bajaking]

Just read your post John as I was about to upload this... it was after a few glasses of wine!

(Caps omitted for clarity)

I think we concur ...

[bajaking]

Also I tested the pickups with a compass to clarify...

[bajaking]

May 18, 2018 16:37:03 GMT -5 JohnH said:

The idea is that all in-phase combos where you split the bridge, will involve a pink and a blue coil and therefore be hum-cancelling. If you also pull the phase switch, you get two of the same colour, out of phase, which is also hum-cancelling. Neat eh? (I was pleased with that!)

This is really neat, one of many reasons why I think it's a great setup

Now I need some sleep, followed by some coffee!

BTW: I have stuck to your original idea of the guitar being Parallel/Phase/Coil Tap with the pots in the down position, makes total sense now.

[JohnH]

I checked my previous colour conversions, and changed it slightly in the post above. I haven't checked your diagram.

I think the M switch diagram has been drawn from one side, then flipped to draw he other side. If looked at from below as in our diagrams, numbers 1 to 5 should be in the same direction for all four banks, but noting the common pole positions 'C' are different to a superswitch. I suggest to investigate your switch with a meter to confirm.

[bajaking]

May 18, 2018 20:46:30 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I checked my previous colour conversions, and changed it slightly in the post above. I haven't checked your diagram.

I think the M switch diagram has been drawn from one side, then flipped to draw he other side. If looked at from below as in our diagrams, numbers 1 to 5 should be in the same direction for all four banks, but noting the common pole positions 'C' are different to a superswitch. I suggest to investigate your switch with a meter to confirm.

Thanks John.

I've tested the switch and the diagram appears correct as if you were looking down on the edge of the pcb...

[bajaking]

My updated diagram amended with your notes...

[reTrEaD]

May 18, 2018 16:37:03 GMT -5 JohnH said:

The switch is doing my head in, it seems to have 12345 positions flipped and inverted on each side. Can anyone advise on that? 

John, the Megaswitch is a tricky beast to keep track of the pads because the actual switch contacts are located in a single 360 degree pattern rather than two patterns, side by side. Because the top half of the switch contacts (nearest the lever) connect to traces that go to plated-thru holes which are then connected to the opposite side of the printed board, it requires careful observation to get it all right.

I think bajaking has the basic concept right but I think the orientation of the switch is turned about. That will make a difference in getting the proper operation such that #1 = Bridge (lever pushed toward tail of guitar), #5 = Neck (lever pushed toward head of guitar).

1 - Switch orientation. Since the desire is to have a view from the backside of the pickguard, the actuator should be at the bottom of the page. That will put pads M through X across the top, going left to right. And it will put pads A through L across the bottom, going right to left.

I *think* that will put everything right.

[bajaking]

May 19, 2018 2:24:00 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

May 18, 2018 16:37:03 GMT -5 JohnH said:

The switch is doing my head in, it seems to have 12345 positions flipped and inverted on each side. Can anyone advise on that? 

John, the Megaswitch is a tricky beast to keep track of the pads because the actual switch contacts are located in a single 360 degree pattern rather than two patterns, side by side. Because the top half of the switch contacts (nearest the lever) connect to traces that go to plated-thru holes which are then connected to the opposite side of the printed board, it requires careful observation to get it all right.

I think bajaking has the basic concept right but I think the orientation of the switch is turned about. That will make a difference in getting the proper operation such that #1 = Bridge (lever pushed toward tail of guitar), #5 = Neck (lever pushed toward head of guitar).

1 - Switch orientation. Since the desire is to have a view from the backside of the pickguard, the actuator should be at the bottom of the page. That will put pads M through X across the top, going left to right. And it will put pads A through L across the bottom, going right to left.

I *think* that will put everything right.

reTrEaD thanks for your input.

In the images below with the switch in the position shown there is continuity between pads E+F, K+L, Q+R, W+X

[reTrEaD]

May 19, 2018 2:37:47 GMT -5 bajaking said:

reTrEaD thanks for your input.

In the images below with the switch in the position shown there is continuity between pads E+F, K+L, Q+R, W+X

Right. And if you look at the position of the lever in the two pics, the lower pic has the lever pointed toward the right (which would equate to the tail of the guitar in John's drawing).

Based on that, I reckon drawing the Megaswitch such that the actuator would be at the bottom of the page will result in a diagram that has the pads in the order that most closely resembles what you'll be looking at while you solder the connections.

[bajaking]

In this diagram I have drawn the switch as you look at the top side A-L and then when turned over M-X not as it is physically - if that makes any sense :-)

[bajaking]

May 19, 2018 2:51:45 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

May 19, 2018 2:37:47 GMT -5 bajaking said:

reTrEaD thanks for your input.

In the images below with the switch in the position shown there is continuity between pads E+F, K+L, Q+R, W+X

Right. And if you look at the position of the lever in the two pics, the lower pic has the lever pointed toward the right (which would equate to the tail of the guitar in John's drawing).

Based on that, I reckon drawing the Megaswitch such that the actuator would be at the bottom of the page will result in a diagram that has the pads in the order that most closely resembles what you'll be looking at while you solder the connections.

I understand, so if I was to use my diagram but effectively flip the switch over this would be good, does this make sense...
(have drawn the to sides of the switch as you look at them flat)

[reTrEaD]

May 19, 2018 3:00:01 GMT -5 bajaking said:

I understand, so if I was to use my diagram but effectively flip the switch over this would be good, does this make sense...
(have drawn the to sides of the switch as you look at them flat)

I haven't looked carefully to insure you have the pad connections correct but I think you might have that part right.

What's definitely wrong is the relationship of the pad layout from top to bottom. It will require more care to insure you're soldering to the correct pad letter when the layout doesn't match what you'll be seeing from the backside of the guitar.

In this latest version, the M through X pads are in the correct sequence. But the A through L pads are in reverse order compared to what you'll see.

[bajaking]

Yep, I've drawn it that way, agreed not correct to the physical switch but my brain finds this easier to understand :-)

[JohnH]

The humbucker N/S colours need reversing and also red swap with black, to match the Irongear diagram.

The switch needs very careful checking since apart from poles in different positions, one side of it gets 1 to 5 mirrored left to right as compared to the superswitch.

[bajaking]

I think I have the switch right now but I'm a bit lost with your comment about the humbucker wires... I though this was what you meant :-(

[bajaking]

May 18, 2018 16:37:03 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Now to wire colours:

I think it will be this:

Diagram - Irongear Hb

red/white - red/black

green - green

black - white

I am colour blind though!

[bajaking]

JohnH

Is this what you mean... was confused about the actual north/south poles of the humbucker...

[JohnH]

I think the pickup orientation and colours are now OK

I made this image to try to see all the required info in one view for checking the switch:



Lets say the switch lever is to the right, ie bridge. In the original superswitch diagram, the connected lugs are number 1, all to the left of their respective groups.
In the Megaswitch M, as I read it, lugs W and Q connect at position 1, and these are to the right. So in these views, the upper side lugs(M to W) get reversed from 1-5 to 5-1. The lower side A to K have the same 1-5 arrangement as the superswitch.

Based on that, I think there are still hairs!

[bajaking]

Thanks John,

Both switches are just 4 in 1 switches correct? after testing all five switch positions I get the following:

Lever pos.    Connected contacts.

1 B              FE - LK - RQ - XW
2 B+M         FD - LJ - RP - XV
3 B+M         FC - LI - RO - XU
4 M+N         FB - LH - RN - XT
5 N              FA - LG - RM - XS

In my diagram I treated your illustration of the superswitch as 4 separate switches in relation to each other, I then changed the layout upon reTrEaD advise so that it was correct when viewed from beneath...

[JohnH]

Ok yes, agreed, I think its good to go!

Note SW3 is still push-in = coil cut. That was at the request of the first guy who built it, but you can move that top left wire to bottom left if you want pulled out = coil cut.

Good luck with the build and please let us know how it goes.

[bajaking]

Brilliant, thanks for your help with this, I will post updates on my progress

[bajaking]

JohnH reTrEaD , hopefully you can clarify this for me... Thanks in advance

I did some polarity tests on the Irongear pickups with an analogue meter and found the following results:



With all three pickups, neck, middle and bridge with the stated ground connected to the black side of the meter, it moved to the left when a metal object was introduced, and to the right when it was taken away, (opposite to their stated diagrams)

So on this basis the Irongear is the same as the Seymour Duncan - same pole configuration, same wind direction? same electrical phase albeit different colour wires...

So my understanding is because I don't want to PHYSICALLY change the position of the pickups I need to turn the humbucker wiring 'inside out' so that it is in phase with my other pickups - opposed magnetically and wound in the opposite direction (in phase and humbucking).

This then wires my humbucker correctly, but if I was to follow you diagram rev B, due to your switch connections, the neck and middle pickup would pair with each wrong side of the humbucker when switching, to correct this I need to swap the output connections of the humbucker on the switch (green + white) so that the respective switching of coils is preserved to the original...

I think the two diagrams below amount to the same thing, I've just spent some time trying to understand the concept at a deeper level and would like to know if I'm correct or mad!...

V1.5 showing the colours reversed as per Johns notes



V1.6 with the colours showing the magnetic and coil directions and the Physical location of the pickups
(I have swapped the switch connections of the green and white in this version at the switch) 

[JohnH]

The 'Irongear standard' diagram above shows red to ground? Id assumed it was per the diagram on the previous page with red to hot. If coils are swapped but without changing phase, then white to hot.

Also, I assumed that the three IG pickups have consistency in their indended hot wires, for simple in-phase combinations.

Drawings 1.5 and 1.6 are the same electrically for humcancelling and phase. (should move the + symbol to the red coil in 1 6). The bridge coil for single coil mode for position 1 is now nearer the bridge, so thinner sounding.

If you want the pickup pole placement per 1.6 (are they already there?), then this issue at position 1 can be fixed if you wish, without changing anything else. It involves flipping the phase of the whole humbucker, just at position 1, so that the other coil is on the hot side. Coil-cutting works by shunting the coil on the ground side. Reversing phase makes no change when only 1 pickup is involved

[bajaking]

this is the out I'm getting from the pickups with a meter...

[bajaking]

May 20, 2018 17:05:32 GMT -5 JohnH said:

The 'Irongear standard' diagram above shows red to ground? Id assumed it was per the diagram on the previous page with red to hot. If coils are swapped but without changing phase, then white to hot.

Also, I assumed that the three IG pickups have consistency in their indended hot wires, for simple in-phase combinations.

Drawings 1.5 and 1.6 are the same electrically for humcancelling and phase. (should move the + symbol to the red coil in 1 6). The bridge coil for single coil mode for position 1 is now nearer the bridge, so thinner sounding.

If you want the pickup pole placement per 1.6 (are they already there?), then this issue at position 1 can be fixed if you wish, without changing anything else. It involves flipping the phase of the whole humbucker, just at position 1, so that the other coil is on the hot side. Coil-cutting works by shunting the coil on the ground side. Reversing phase makes no change when only 1 pickup is involved

well after testing with an analogue meter, the irongear wire schematics don't seem to be correct... Pickups are not there yet but this is where I'd like to have them.

I'm just trying to figure out that the basics of what I need to do is flipping the phase of the whole humbugger ('Inside out' in my book) and then swapping the two humbucker outputs to match you diagram... 

[JohnH]

It looks like all those tested ground/output wires are the opposite of IG data. Which actually means that they are all the same! If you reverse the phase of everything, then its all back in phase again with no change. Hence you can use the diagrams that you did.

[reTrEaD]

bajaking there are three issues involved here. Signal polarity, hum canceling pairing, and physical position.

Let's talk about signal polarity first.

May 20, 2018 16:35:28 GMT -5 bajaking said:

With all three pickups, neck, middle and bridge with the stated ground connected to the black side of the meter, it moved to the left when a metal object was introduced, and to the right when it was taken away, (opposite to their stated diagrams)

That being the case, the indicated colors are opposite to the 'standard'. It won't really matter if you are consistent in having ALL connections being reversed from indicated colors or in agreement with indicated colors. Personally, I would document the colors required to achieve a negative-going pulse when the metal object is moving away from the pickup but whichever way you decide, be consistent.

---

May 20, 2018 16:35:28 GMT -5 bajaking said:

So my understanding is because I don't want to PHYSICALLY change the position of the pickups I need to turn the humbucker wiring 'inside out' so that it is in phase with my other pickups - opposed magnetically and wound in the opposite direction (in phase and humbucking).

In terms of hum-canceling pairing, you determined earlier that:

The neck pickup is attracted to the middle pickup
The neck pickup is attracted to slug side of the humbucker
The middle pickup is attracted to the screw side of the humbucker (nearest the bridge)

This means in terms of hum-canceling, the Pig Iron OW should pair up with the slug coil of the HB. In term of wiring, if the Pig Iron OW is used at the neck, the slug coil of the HB should be at the 'top' of the stack (its + is free and its - is connected to the series link) and the screw coil of the HB is at the 'bottom' of the stack (its + is connected to the series link and its - is free).

---

Where does that leave you in terms of physical position?
If you choose to orient your HB such that the screw coils are nearest the bridge, the position of the coil pairs won't be quite the same as the original circuit. This isn't a deal-breaker and you could call it a day at this point but having the pairing of Middle and the nearest HB coil and the pairing of Neck and the most distant HB coil is rather desirable. To achieve that, you have two choices.

1 - Spin the HB about such that the slug coil is nearest the bridge.

2 - Leave the HB with the screw coil nearest the bridge, move the Texas Loco to the Neck position and the Pig Iron OW to the Middle position, then stack the HB with the Screw coil at the 'top' of the stack (in terms of wiring).

Because the Pig Iron OW is a hotter wind (more output and a darker tone, at least according to the Iron Gear tone chart), Choice #2 seems a logical choice.

[bajaking]

Many thanks, 90% there but it still hasn't sunk in yet

I think because I'm looking at the following and thinking that for there to be humcancelling you need the coil windings in the opposite direction:



And looking at how the start and finish of a humbucker effects this:



Thats why I thought that turning the humbucker 'inside out' - "stack the HB with the Screw coil at the 'top' of the stack (in terms of wiring)" as you put it would mean that the neck and slug coil are magnetically opposed and opposite wound and the middle and the screw coil are magnetically opposed and opposite wound...

I'm good with the signal polarity part, bit of a shocker that they are totally incorrect from the manufacturers details but hey, I guess thats why you test these things.

Also I understand that the pairing of the pickups position is different from John's original but this was something I was happy with.

It all comes down to trying to understand the fundamentals of all this in my head.

I might swap the neck and middle but still want to understand all this!

[JohnH]

The IG data is correct. Also reversing the direction of everything is also correct, because phase of a pickup is only relative to another pickup or coil. You could wire up using the IG data, or the data from your tests and it would sound identical. But reverse one coil only, and it will be out of phase in affected combos.

It doesn't matter about start and finish, what matters is, in the journey from hot to ground, is the wire going clockwise or anticlockwise around the pole?. This affects both the signal phase and the hum.

And it matters very much what the pole magnetic direction is. This affects the signal phase, but not the hum (which is due to external fields).

So a basic humcancelling pair have different magnetism and are connected with one reversed. These two differences compensate each other for signal phase, leaving the combination in phase for sounds, but leave the coils producing hum of opposite phase, which therefore cancels out.

It doesn't matter for phase and hum, which order the coils are wires, ie which one is nearer to ground. But in this scheme, this aspect is used to control which coil is shunted in single-coil mode.

[bajaking]

Thanks John, I think I'm getting there, I did this diagram and it kind of sunk in...

I'd got tied up with what happens when you move the series link which as you say just changes which coil gets shunted with the coil tap correct?