bluemurder
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Post by bluemurder on Apr 16, 2013 4:55:53 GMT -5
After having successfully implemented the SP wiring I am still unsure whether to tackle this one though it looks very interesting, too.
The issue that has kept me away so far is that with the HSS configuration the sounds I use most are the full humbucker and the humbucker inner coil + middle in parallel so I would like to get them by moving just one element (switch or pot). Is there a way to do this without messing too much with the existing design? I was thinking of having only one humbucker coil in the switch positions 2, 3 and 4 and the full humbucker in position 5.
Thank you very much and kind regards, Stephan
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Post by JohnH on Apr 16, 2013 19:51:57 GMT -5
Hi again bluemurder, HSS designs are currently my main interest, having recently acquired an HSS Strat. For myself, I'm following a simpler track using mainly existing parts: Strat SSMBut if i went to a super-switch, it would be this SP HSS that i would base it on. I think it would not be difficult to to make it so that the bridge is only a humbucker in position 5 (per my diagram, actually, I think B is normally called position 1!). In positions 3, 4 the contribution from B would be only the single coil that hum cancels with the other M or N coil. However, if going Oop, it would probably lose either the humcancelling capability, or the ability to have Oop in all combos, ie, only the bridge pickup would be phased so you could have Oop in BN and BM combos but not NM. So there's a few possibilities - I'm happy to work on it provided the resulting design is sensible and ergonomic because that was the basis for this series of circuits. Here are some options: 1.The simplest alternative that would do what you wish, and i think would be my choice, would be to lose both the coil cut switch for the bridge, and the phase switch, so the only extra switch is the series/parallel. You get bridge humbucker, and all hum canceling in-phase combos of NM, BN and BM in series and parallel in which the B is just one coil. 2 as 1, but at position 5 the two coils of the bridge pickup become part of the series/parallel wiring options. So full humbucker at 5 can be faded down to a single coil at 5, or. bridge coils in parallel can be had. Just for interest, and fun to play with, but I think it defeats the intent of having one-flick access to the key sounds because it would take two operations to get from bridge Hb to Binner+M 3 as 1, keep the bridge coil cut switch, only for position 5 4 as 1 or 3 (not 2), add the phase switch back, only to reverse the bridge pickup, also swapping coils in 3 and 4 to maintain humcancelling. All of that boils down to: Do you need a phase switch? Ive got to a point for myself, that I have fun designing them electrically but never actually use them. Do you need a single coil bridge sound? Are the N and M pickups hum canceling? it would maybe affect the phase options that are sensible. Two more observations: On my HSS strat, the way I have it wired (see above), I can get M + B, with B either as a single or as a humbucker. There is not actually a huge difference, both are clear, bright and quacky with the one including bridge humbucker just slightly more mid rangey - the M pup dominates in this case. And if I could only have on of those sounds, I think I prefer the bridge humbucker + M. Another watch-it - based on builders observations above (treguiers), on the base diagram for the SP HSS, the phase switch may need to be swapped, ie in should be out - no biggie, will check on that. cheers John
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bluemurder
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Post by bluemurder on Apr 17, 2013 2:54:01 GMT -5
John,
Many thanks for this. It will take a bit of time to fully digest this.
The SSM wiring looks very interesting as well.
In my HSS set up, the single coils are not humcancelling but one is RW/RP with respect to the other.
I would definitely prefer the single coil option at the bridge over the phase switching option.
Cheers Stephan
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Post by genmce on Aug 8, 2015 8:55:17 GMT -5
Hey,
After doing the Strat sp sss and being very happy with it. I want to try this one for the other strat I have.
So a few questions.
1. Can I put that cap in between the tone knob and switch 1 you have in strat Sp? 2. I was thinking of doing a fender noiseless in M and stks1n for N. Are there any pitfalls of attempting this? 3. I have an S1 switch I would like to use - just not sure where to incorporate it best.
Ok - I'm going to wire some now.
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Post by genmce on Aug 8, 2015 12:43:54 GMT -5
Ok - several hours later and I have it wired...
Checking phase and pickup activity -
1st mistake - wired m were n was called for - should have seen that one - oops, no prob.
2nd - weird problem - (all pickups active where they should be) *phase reverses on m pickup (fender noiseless only has two leads). Meaning when I am on 2 phase is one direction, when I am on 4 phase is other direction, based on screwdriver pull off. Not messing with the phase switch at all. Better read whole thread to make sure I did not miss something.
Not sure where my mistake is on this one.
Edit: Ok - so it has to be the phase switch. When I pull it up all is well. I think I always screw up the phase switch. So I must have it reversed.
Edit2: Ok so something is weird. So phase does not work for m b... don't like it as much as the sss. I need to pull the noiseless and the stacked humbucker in the neck for 2 singles. I know something is still not right tho...
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Post by JohnH on Aug 8, 2015 15:51:57 GMT -5
Whoa! - while I was asleep, you went from planning to do it to almost done it!
This one does indeed flip the phase in some positions that you might not expect, which should not affect the sound if it is either just one pickup flipped, or both in a combo. The reason is to be able to always choose the right humcancelling coil at the bridge to be part of a combination, in phase and out of phase. This extra thinking was not needed on the SP design.
Can do the tone pot with two caps if you want (need to move the 22nF cap as well as adding the 47nF, per the SP diagram). I think I prefer it with two, the larger cap is what acts to brighten the series tones around 8 to 10 on the tone pot, and the larger cap gives a bit more of this effect.
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Post by genmce on Aug 8, 2015 18:25:04 GMT -5
My other observation is, this is very bright. I'm riding between 2-5 on the tone pot, where I like it. I may be out of my ice pick phase.
My pickup selection for this turned out dreadful and I had to use a b500k for series fader (short of parts),not sure it is doing anything. I may change to a250k all around.
Not sure the about needing a phase switch anymore, it is a cool novelty but the sounds aren't that interesting, to me, anymore. I am scared I'm going to fall back all the way to stock wiring after all this trouble. Nah.... I like the series and NB too much.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 8, 2015 19:50:35 GMT -5
Just one thing. A B500k for the series would be a very sudden change fron singke to series, but it should still make that change as you turn from 0. If it really dies nothing then there is a problem
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Post by genmce on Aug 9, 2015 8:09:25 GMT -5
Ok - I am having a hard time with the humbucker wiring. Which may be why my series fader is not working. I did find a a500k, so I am putting that in. When I look at this, it shows different wiring for SD and for fender. SD is Black north start (hot output) white north finish red south finish green south start (ground) fender is green north start white north finish black south finish red south start So this is a mim fender pickup - your drawing is for fender or sd pickup wiring? EDIT - you already stated that above, your diagram is SD. So from this image you can see the bridge (adjustable) coil has red and black, slug coil has white and green. So I need to swap wire colors on diagram from the humbucker black to green white to white red to black green to red Is that correct? I have done so. Also - when I look at polarity (according to the chart linked above) the slug should be North polarity and the South should be adjustable. That is not the case on my pickup nor on the American hss, other pickguard with hb pickup I have, North is slug and South is adjustable. Yes my compass still points North. My polarities match the wiring diagram in first post. Ok - so phase relationships all seem good now, after changing the humbucker wiring to fender, that is cool - auto phase. *Only issue I seem to have now - matching bridge (coil cut) coil for opposite polarity/hum-cancelling with bm on 2 and nb on 3. At the moment I seem to have the slug (south) coil2 active when on position 2 (bm) and this is wrong, because those are the same polarity. I determined this with the screwdriver pull off test just to see which coil is active. I don't see in the diagram where the switching changes which coil on the humbucker is active? only that it is coil cut to single. Red/White wires tied together going to ground (coil cut) or not (normal humbucker).
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Post by JohnH on Aug 9, 2015 16:56:22 GMT -5
It seems you are close.
I also have a Fender humbucker on my Strat. What I like about them (in addition to tone) is that you can see exactly where each wire goes on each coil. The wiring colours seem to be similar to dumarzio, where black/white are usually joined. But I wouldnt trust polarity and you are wise to check it as you are doing.
On the diagram I shaded the coils pink and blue to show differences in polarity. So for in-phase Bsingle+M combos, its wanting bridge coil 2. If what you have is getting you the same magnetic polarities with that instead of an opposite pair, it would either be not hum cancelling ir else out of phase. To fix that either: 1. Wire coil 1 in place of coil 2 (would imply red/ green are joined) and accept that coil1 is the one used . 2. As 1, plus physically rotate B pickup 180 degrees (that would be awkward on my Fender. Or, 3. Swap N and M pickups to recreate the alternating pattern of pink-blue in the diagram.
The way the circuit uses bridge coil1 and bridge coil2 when it needs to is that the centre connection is always grounded in single-coil B settings, but the outer ground and hot wires are reveresed, changing phase and meaning the other coil is shunted. Then, when it is not actually intended as an oop combo, the other pickup is also reversed by the switching. Its all done by the switching, you only pull the phase switch for an oop sound.
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Post by genmce on Aug 9, 2015 20:04:15 GMT -5
Hi John, Thanks for reply. Perhaps I was not clear.
My colors match yours on the initial wiring diagram you have posted, with pink(red) being North and blue being South. I have South(neck)/North(middle)/South coil closest to neck then North closest to bridge. I believe you referred to them as coil 1 closest to neck and coil 2 closest to bridge.
Does that mean that only coil 1 is used when hb is coil cut? Or will it still change as you said it does down below, when I switch to position 3 for nb? Since I want, in position 2, to have m and b coil nearest m to be active based on the plot you did, on other thread. Will this work?
3 - This seems pretty easy to do, however, I have a stacked single in neck, still, this may require a few more changes.
I was waiting to hear from you before I reinstalled it (again) - broke the e string on last change up - too many changes for that little e, I guess...
Ok ... well I get a bit lost in that description, though I am trying to wrap my head around it.
Does it actually work that way? If so - that is really cool! I am trying to think through it now... mulling - So black is the finish of the south coil tied to the finish (white) of the North coil. They are gounded when coil split engaged. When on the North coil, signal does not pass ground into the south coil. And you are swapping the hot and ground signal for other coil...
When I did the screwdriver pull off on position 2, coil 1 (closest to bridge) was active (higher signal strength than coil2 - my test uses reaper to record and I look at the captured waveform. Is this an acceptable way to test which coil is active?). When I did this on position 4 it seems to me the same, coil 1 is the stronger strength from the pull of screw driver waveform observation.
Thanks for all your help!
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Post by JohnH on Aug 10, 2015 5:47:10 GMT -5
After a long day teaching engineering, there are plenty of ways to get mixed up with this when ever I blink, although your questions and info are clear enough. So maybe just confirm the following:
1. From neck to middle to bridge coil nearest neck to bridge coil nearest bridge, as installed, you have magnetic polarity always alternating, never a north next to north or south next to south. This matches the SP hss diagram but is different on my Fender (different model)
2. whenever you combine a bridge single coil with either N or M, either in or out of phase, it should always be hum-cancelling. ie, less hum than a single coil (but maybe not zero hum)
If 1 and 2 are true, then you must be getting the B coil nearest to m when you combine splitB with M, which is what you intend?
All that reversing stuff really does happen, and yes it is cool. You can (hopefully) automatically get either coil of B, depending which one you need for humcancelling. Or if you use B only and coil cut it, the phase switch will change which coil is selected.
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Post by genmce on Aug 10, 2015 6:13:41 GMT -5
I spent a little while just looking at the diagram, in particular, the wiring of the humbucker. I think if I swap green and black on your diagram, green and red on my pickup, I should get correct coil. Now phase may be a different issue that pops up. I will keep at this. Edit - yup correct coils, now phase is bad between mb and nb. I have this feeling I am going to end up back exactly as you have it drawn!
Ok I think I am there. Tie red and green together, white to b an bm black to nb. Correct coils active phase looks good! Phase switch works as designed. I better test humbucker phase - looks good. I have to go to work, will tie it up and install later today
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Post by genmce on Aug 10, 2015 19:04:54 GMT -5
Ok - all done. I need to trim the new strings... sorry low light phone pic with my hand moving. Comments - all seems to work as it should. It very, very bright. Not sure if it is because of the new strings... I would like to bring this brightness down. I set the tone control on 1-4 to be to my taste, 10 is over the top bright! Should I change to a A250k tone pot to bring this down a bit? Would adding the .47 cap like the stratSP sss help with this? Can you modify this diagram for this addition or make a second version? Not sure where to move wires on the series fader pot?
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Post by JohnH on Aug 10, 2015 22:16:58 GMT -5
Congrats on getting it to work, and the guitar looks great...like a normal Strat!
The special tone thing that this and the sss SP have: It is only any different in series mode. In parallel or single mode only the 22nF cap is acting (sss SP). The 47nF actually brightens the series sound the larger it is, but only in the range 10 down to about 8. On the hss SP, the single 22nF cap does both jobs.
The brightness is not due to caps, and putting in 47nF wont help problems of too much brightness. Lower pot values for tone and/or volume would do this though. Also carefully considered fixed resistors or very small caps across the output to ground can help.
Since you have it together working with new strings, U'd suggest playing it a while to see if there are particular settings that are ok or want calming down.
There are several external things you can do, or wire across the jack without removing the pg. These include a longer cable, or a resistor ( eg 270k) or a cap (1nF to 2.2nF) across the jack. Once some options are found, they can be added intetnally to affect just some or all combos.
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Post by genmce on Aug 11, 2015 4:49:48 GMT -5
Agreed - play it for a while - makes the most sense. There is so much to explore, an unhurried way will be best. I still think my pickups are not the best choice. Middle is stock mim (6.8k 2.9h ceramic rwrp) and a bit harsh to my new ears. Neck is the stacked sd and while I like it in Though I have not balanced pickup height yet... Duh! Yes - the is plenty to do before I go back under.
Thanks for the suggestions outside the pg. I can also turn down the amp treble. Also, the amp (fender cybertwin se) while very flexible, is very fizzy sometimes and tweak demanding to get anything good out of. The action is a bit low as well making solos sound slappy.
Based on my last comments - I believe I have entered true "tone snobbery". I feel the same way about hoppy IPA's.
I only had a few minutes to play it yesterday and not with the jam guys.
Since I have another hss pickguard - I can try my experiments - on that one. Then compare. I a250k pp pots, changing the coil cut pp to down hb, so all pp's down is stock pickup selection, except for nb in position 3. The changes happen when switches are pulled.
I like this design very much - pickup heights next!
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Post by JohnH on Aug 11, 2015 6:37:09 GMT -5
Pickup height might be a key variable to play with. My HSS has Texas Specials for the two singles, which I like very much. But reports of them from many on the net say that they are harsh etc. I don't think so, but the usual answer to this is to lower them. How this might help I can only guess about. But one significant effect could be that the magnetic field at the level of the strings becomes wider and less focussed if the pickups are further away. This will tend to blur and reduce the very high frequencies.
with the two 500k pots, the design is intended to get the most out of the humbucker and series settings, without getting muddy. I guess that can be too much for the single and parallel modes with some pickup sets, hence the need to tone down. Once you have adjusted heights and other settings, it will be interesting to see if all modes are still too bright, or is it just the parallel and singles? Then there may be so components that could be added to bring jus those down a tad.
Lets say for example, that you find that you are happy with the series sound - but the single's and parallel's are too bright. I think there will be ways to engage an extra load resistor just in those modes that need it, depending which they are. You can test by adding it outside of the guitar (which will affect all modes), then once you go back inside, it is placed so as only to affect the settings where it is wanted. There would be some constraints but probably ok in principle.
Hoppy IPA's: a key reason I try to got back to the UK once a year if I can. That and a good curry and see the folks, then back to the sunshine.
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Post by genmce on Aug 14, 2015 16:08:48 GMT -5
I am a teacher and summer is over. This is the first week of back to school prep. I am totally overwhelmed. I will return to this project as soon as time is available. Pickup height.
I also saw your question on the other thread, I will consider suggestions that I can offer, soon.
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Post by genmce on Aug 17, 2015 5:23:06 GMT -5
Tried a few things
- 20ft cable (had been using 10ft) - that helped, except I lost brightness on the series settings. - Did some adjustments on pickup height, still not quite where I want it. - I also tried my pod hd500 with this guitar (this is the way I usually jam in my "studio" (one room outbuilding) - everyone on headphones with drums and voice being the only sounds "in the room"). The brightness was not near as prevalent. I did notice the darkness of the series sounds. Would like to brighten them up a bit.
I will play with it for a bit longer and get comfortable with what I really like and what I'll need advice on for my particular tone modifications.
BTW there is quack on 2 with m + nearest bridge coil.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 17, 2015 15:26:22 GMT -5
Glad to hear about the quack.
The series sounds will always be darker. This design has several features to try to control this:
1. Higher value pots (ie 500k instead of 250k 2. The tone control action in series mode - you should hear it getting a bit brighter from 8 to 10. If this is a tone change heading in the right direction, then a change to the SPsss tone circuit (ie with the two tone caps)has more of it, without changing the parallel mode 3. The series fader pot. With that, you can pan anywhere from a single coil (=too bright?) to full series(=too dark?), so hopefully there is a place to stop along the way
I much prefer a 10' cord for tone, and I never need more for practical purposes when playing with the band. If you like the 20' tone in single/parallel settings and the 10' sound in series, it may be possible to put a small cap across the signal just in parallel mode, and use the 10' cord. In theory, this would be about 500pF but in practice, when I've tried this before it takes more like 1000pf to have a noticeable effect.
You can throw all the tone cards in the air again with a small active buffer, which negates all cable effects. If you want to hear how that might sound, use a very short patch lead in a test, going directly into the amp, or into a non-true bypass pedal.
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Post by genmce on Aug 18, 2015 4:27:38 GMT -5
Got a chance to jam with some friends. So many good sounds to play with. I used the floor board hd500 - brightness seemed manageable on parallel. Would like to brighten up series. Yes it is brightest at 8-10 tone, I tired rolling back the series pot but it looses fullness. Any chance you could put up a version two diagram, with the added cap? I looked and I wasn't sure what to move where from the series knob. I know where to stick the cap.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 18, 2015 15:08:41 GMT -5
Got a chance to jam with some friends. So many good sounds to play with. I used the floor board hd500 - brightness seemed manageable on parallel. Would like to brighten up series. Yes it is brightest at 8-10 tone, I tired rolling back the series pot but it looses fullness. Any chance you could put up a version two diagram, with the added cap? I looked and I wasn't sure what to move where from the series knob. I know where to stick the cap. That's fine, I'll do it at the weekend so I have time to get it right
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Post by genmce on Aug 18, 2015 19:27:05 GMT -5
Thanks much, no rush - whenever you have time is fine.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 22, 2015 19:36:25 GMT -5
Here is the variation to the SPhss, which has a bit more of the tone-brightening feature in series mode, with tone 8-10: If you made this change but decided to revert back, then just keep it this way but with two 22nF caps I also reordered the positions from 1 to 5 to match usual convention, B being position 1
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Post by genmce on Aug 22, 2015 20:37:46 GMT -5
Thank you very much, sir! I will make this change, tonight ... or tomorrow.
I have been playing with it for week or so now through my pedal (podhd500), I like it very much. I think my brightness complaints were related to my cybertwin amps fizzyness.
I am still considering which I like better, the bridge pickup - coil cut or humbucker on position 1. I think I like it better as a humbucker. Right now, it is coil cut when pp down. If I want to go from that nice coil cut 4 or 2 position to 1 hb lead, I have to slap the 5 position switch to 1 and pull pp up. Too many steps ... I get fuddled. Especially, if I need to go back to 2 or 4 single sound. Two step boogie.
I'm not sure what I want to do about that. Some thoughts: Auto hb in 1 unless the pp is pulled up. Retaining the current pp/down bridge coil cut in other positions 5432 and retaining hb. When pp/up hb in 2345 - coil cut on 1. Sheesh - that is confusing, a bad idea. I don't go for coil cut bridge very often, but I would hate to loose it altogether.
At any rate, thank you again!
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Post by JohnH on Aug 22, 2015 21:05:42 GMT -5
One thing that might be good for you: The current layouts took on-board a suggestion from treguiers (he who built it first), to make the bridge coil cut the default B sound, with pp switch in. You might prefer it with pull out for coil cut which is what I first drew. Just move one wire on the coil cut switch (see linked at very end of first post)
Also, you might find that you get a good position-2 quack from the full B humbucker plus M. I do on my hss.
Autosplit may be possible, ie, Im not sure that it is impossible!
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Post by genmce on Aug 23, 2015 6:56:17 GMT -5
Swap wire on pp, yup I noticed that on the original, original - for HB in down position of pp. Thankfully - I can figure that one, all by myself!
Just finished the cap install. Series is much nicer with that brighter edge, especially with a little gain Very good, thank you much, I think this one is a keeper!
At least until I go nutz again!
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Post by JohnH on Aug 24, 2015 15:09:06 GMT -5
Swap wire on pp, yup I noticed that on the original, original - for HB in down position of pp. Thankfully - I can figure that one, all by myself! Just finished the cap install. Series is much nicer with that brighter edge, especially with a little gain Very good, thank you much, I think this one is a keeper! At least until I go nutz again! I'm glad it worked out. Now I want another HSS to build one myself!
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Post by genmce on Aug 30, 2015 6:40:17 GMT -5
Ok - I really want a way to have default HB bridge in position 1. To be able to go from 2, mb coil cut (very nice quack) to 1 full HB, in one move on the super switch.
Ok so what would that mean? Would still want to be able to have mb(HB) as well as the series choices.
The last pp works as a great location for choice of HB in position 123, I just can't easily get from 2 mb coil cut to 1 b(HB) Could I run a wire back to the super switch from this pp that shunts to ground based position. So if pp is on to be HB no shunt, off to be coil cut .... I need to look at diagram again. No super switch is full and not messing with ground.
Not that I play great solos - I try... I usually have to footswitch in a light overdrive, then go to one, hit pp for bridge HB, and roll off the tone to 1-2. That is a lot to do, and I have to reverse this going back to rhythm, and sometimes getting that pp to go up is difficult. It's more than I can handle.
I would love to get this to footswitch, 5 way to 1. Then reverse - I'm back.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 30, 2015 15:26:21 GMT -5
Ok - I really want a way to have default HB bridge in position 1. To be able to go from 2, mb coil cut (very nice quack) to 1 full HB, in one move on the super switch. Ok so what would that mean? Would still want to be able to have mb(HB) as well as the series choices. The last pp works as a great location for choice of HB in position 123, I just can't easily get from 2 mb coil cut to 1 b(HB) Could I run a wire back to the super switch from this pp that shunts to ground based position. So if pp is on to be HB no shunt, off to be coil cut .... I need to look at diagram again. No super switch is full and not messing with ground. Not that I play great solos - I try... I usually have to footswitch in a light overdrive, then go to one, hit pp for bridge HB, and roll off the tone to 1-2. That is a lot to do, and I have to reverse this going back to rhythm, and sometimes getting that pp to go up is difficult. It's more than I can handle. I would love to get this to footswitch, 5 way to 1. Then reverse - I'm back. I think its possible, but to autosplit on 2 but keep the option of M+B(hb) you would need another switch
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