tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 2, 2011 1:08:09 GMT -5
Hello there everybody. First post HOORAY! So I got this plan for a stereo guitar I plan on building and I need some help with wiring (have my mind pretty much set on building a stereo guitar, so please no non-encouraging comments). Without going into too much detail here is what I want the guitar to have: 1. Total of 4 pickups (2 for each output jack) 2. 2 vol, 2 tone, 3-way pup selector switch (for each set of pups (sets of 2)) 3. Buckethead/"Telegraph" style killswitch (for each set of pups) 4. individual phase switches for each pickup 5. Seymour Duncan Triple Shots for each 4-conductor pickup 6. Lr Baggs X-bridge Piezo system (as seen in the alternate wiring diagram in the manual www.lrbaggs.com/Manuals/x-bridge_fixed_manual.pdf) 7. Lr Baggs CTRL-X ( www.lrbaggs.com/Manuals/ctrl-x_manual.pdf) 8. 1 Seymour Duncan Liberator for each set of pups (without going into too much detail I plan on being able to switch out at lightning speeds to save me trouble as I don't plan on buying another guitar for a good long while when I'm done with this) EDIT1:9. Series/parallel switch for each set of pups (similar to what you see here: www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2ts_2v_2t_phsp). END EDIT1This is the wiring diagram I've whipped up so far with my not too extensive knowledge of guitar wiring (some of it was copied the Seymour Duncan website too save time drawing out the Liberator and Triple Shot). s1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/TVRobot/?action=view¤t=WiringDiagramBig.jpgSo I've got some questions: 1. Will this work? Would the kill-switch, pots, phase switches, and all the other good stuff included in the diagram work as intended? 2. How can I work the X-Bridge and CTRL-X into all of that? 3. In order to save space how to I wire the 2 vol pots to a concentric tone pot (can I even do that)? Terribly sorry if that's hard to understand, I'm a little scatterbrained, but I keep putting this post off and figured "If I don't post now I never will!?!" So here I am. P.S. I read through all of the information in that "Read This Before You Post A Question" thread (and the links listed there), but I may have missed something that may have been able to help me with one of my problems so I apologize in advance if I did.
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Post by newey on May 2, 2011 5:40:12 GMT -5
tvrobot-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
I can't really tell much from your diagram as the picture is too small, but it looks OK from what I can see. Several points I'll make:
1) Since the pickups are going to be soldered first to the Triple-shots™, and then to the phase switches, I don't see the point of the Liberator quick-change system. So what if you can quickly detach them from the volume pot, you'd be taking the triple shots and the phase switches out with them.
2) You can use concentric pots to save space, but not if one of your Vols has the Liberator thingee attached to it. You could use concentric pots for the tones.
3) You only need one phase switch per pair of pickups, so you can simplify things a bit there by removing one.
4) The LR Baggs CTRL-X set-up doesn't really integrate with any of the mag pickup wiring, it's a separate system until it gets to the output jack. Of course, you're going to have 2 outputs already, so the CRTL-X will have to go to one or the other.
5) Will this all work? Probably, provided you can get it all to fit into the guitar. You didn't say what type of guitar this was going into, but I foresee big problems with fitment. The LR Baggs system has it's own separate circuit board and switching, and it alone requires cavity modification in a Strat. Obviously, you're not using a Strat, but unless you've already supersized your cavity, you'd better make darned sure of getting everything to fit in there before you start doing this.
6) It's not just a simple a matter of getting all the components to fit, either, as some room for wiring must be left as well. Wires are not infinitely compressable/bendable/moveable.
Even if you use concentric pots for the tone controls, you're still at 3 pot-holes per pickup (one for the concentric tone pots, 2 for volumes with the Liberator thing), so 6 total for the stereo set-up, plus another for the LR Baggs. That's 7 holes to fit the pots, each with enough room around it to accommodate the wiring. Plus 2 pickup toggles and an extra toggle for the LR Baggs. Also 2 outjacks, one of which is the special LR Baggs output (oversized). Plus, room for the circuit board for the Baggs and for the battery.
My advice is, if you hope to get this all in there, lose the Liberator, lose 1 phase switch per pickup pair, lose 1 V & T on each and go with a master V and T for each pair of pickups, using a concentric pot for each pair.
You would still need to trace out your cavity size and trial-fit components to be sure everything would fit, but you might at least have a fighting chance.
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 2, 2011 20:17:07 GMT -5
Sorry about the size of the diagram, here's a close up of the small part: s1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/TVRobot/?action=view¤t=WiringDiagramOther.jpgAlso I guess I'm gonna go ahead and explain the idea for the guitar. So I plan on carving the body from a Warmoth body blank with bathtub/universal routing (still deciding on the body shape). I'm going to go ahead and make the control cavity even larger to play it safe, it will be covered by a rather large pickguard. As for the explanation for the Liberators I plan on the pickguard being cut up into 3 sections: 1. Pickguard strip left of the pickups 2. 4 interchangeable squares made out of pickguard material in the middle, each with a pickup, phase switch, and cut-up Triple Shot on it 3. Pickguard section to the right of pickups with the rest of the controls in it. I'm really liking the idea of being able to switch out pickups really fast and not having to cut up a new pickguard (with all of the holes for the electronics) everytime I decide to change pups. The downside to this is that I will have to by a phase switch for each pup I buy and a Triple Shot for each 4 conductor pup I buy. The Liberator would let me be able to make the wiring connections real fast (I realize that sentence was worded very poorly). So: 1. Interchangeable pickguard squares (to save time with pickguard cutting) 2. Liberators (to save time soldering) s1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/TVRobot/?action=view¤t=Thing.jpgThere's a poorly drawn picture of what the pickguard will look like (except for the right side of pickguard) to give you a better idea of what I'm going for. The positions of where the controls are isn't final at all. -Red dots=phase switches -Green dots=Triple Shots -Blue dots=single coils -Yellow dots=4 conductor pups -Tone and volume pots are pretty self-explanatory -"X" is for the CTRL-X knob -Purple line=3 way switch that's part of the CTRL-X -Blue scribble=other CTRL-X stuff -Orange lines=killswitches -Gray lines=3-way pup switches Also I'm just wondering if we're on the same page about the concentric pots, I don't want them for the Vols just the Tones. Also this is a CRAAAAZY question I'm sure, but is there anyway I could why the X-bridge to both outputs, each with it's own CTRL-X? 1 X-bridge, 2 CTRL-X's, 2 outputs basically. And also one last thing I don't know how to wire the X-bridge and CTRL-X to a 3-way switch instead of a 5-way switch.
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Post by newey on May 2, 2011 21:29:38 GMT -5
OK, I've got the basic plan. Sort of like the Dan Armstrong interchangeable-pickup guitar, but with multiple pickups, phase switches, Triple-shots . . . Far be it for me to discourage such nutziness! Have at it! Yes, we're on a wavelength there; you have the Liberator on one of the Volume pots. You can certainly use concentric pots for your tone controls. Why is the Triple-shot "cut up"? We've had some discussions about other uses for the Triple Shot. If you were willing to sacrifice the parallel setting, or the SC setting, you might be able to use 1/2 of the Triple Shot as your phase switch, which would simplify things considerably. I'm not sure that can be done with a Triple-Shot, but I'll bet it can be. Well, I can't think of a good reason why not. You'd simply split the output, which shouldn't be an issue since each signal is then getting separately buffered/preamped. Neither do I, I'll need to take a look at that, but it shouldn't be a big issue. It may require using a DPDT switch.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 2, 2011 21:37:09 GMT -5
ok wait, I thought you said stereo? Which would be like putting one pup in one amp and the other in the other? Cuz that would be cool, but it doesnt look like thats what you've got. what Newey said about only needing one phase switch. For your chopped up pg, have a look at this: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=5005&page=2#45486 I currently have a working set up in my guitar while I'm working on another that we've been dreaming up. The switch over will take about 30 seconds ;D
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Post by newey on May 2, 2011 21:54:44 GMT -5
JFP-
The diagram is only half, there'll be another module just like it for the other channel, with another 2 pickups.
And now, apparently 2 CRTL-X circuits as well.
tvrobot-
I didn't see any glaring errors in your diagram, but I can't tell you the lug assignments for the Liberator, so I have no way of knowing if those are the correct connections to it or not. Presumably, you will simply wire that according to the directions SD gives you, and all will be well. But, I can't tell you that all will be well because I can't ascertain that.
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 2, 2011 22:57:12 GMT -5
Never heard of this Dan Armstrong fellow (as I am only 17) but after a quick Google my mind was blown. Awesome. I'm not sure if I can just stick the entire mounting ring under the strings and everything be dandy but I did see a Seymour Duncan forum member by the name of SurfWhammy (or something along those lines) come up with this for mounting it on a Strat: s1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/TVRobot/?action=view¤t=SeymourDuncanTripleShotModForStrat.pngMr. Burns voice: "Excellent." How exactly do I wire such a crazy-mahjig? Well at least it's doable. I may need to have my hand held at this part. ^ This. I'm going to continue to take a look at this and try to wrap my mind around it. I'm a huge noob when it comes to wiring/electronics-type stuff but if there's some way I could work this into my evil master plan for my guitar and still be able to do all that I could do with my current plan I'm totally all ears. Also I'm going to go ahead and try when I get the time to modify the wiring diagram to have the concentric tone pot and the CTRL-X's (if I can figure out how; any help with this part would be greatly appreciated).
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Post by newey on May 4, 2011 5:35:29 GMT -5
Oh, so this is a Strat after all? Just one with massive body modifications?
You can use the whole TripleShot ring with your humbuckers; surgery might be needed for the single coils, however.
If that's the case, and I'm not meaning to dampen your enthusiasm, but please consider that what you are proposing is a massive wiring job. If you don't have several "advanced" projects under your belt already, you may well be biting off more than you can digest here.
These types of projects seldom work correctly when you first do them, there's usually a good deal of troubleshooting involved. Expect to spend as much time or more trouble-shooting it as you did building it in the first place.
It's natural to "want it all" in one guitar, but not always practical. If this is to be in a Strat body, I still think you'll have fitment issues. Best idea there would be to do a full-size CAD drawing of the design so component fit can be checked beforehand.
You're going to be investing a lot of coin for all these "goodies" (over a hundred bucks in Triple Shots alone), it'll be a sad day if you get them all in hand only to find that it won't work.
Understand that no one here can tell you that this is doable- because no one has attempted it.
Also consider that, when and if you finally complete this (it will be a long process), it is unlikely to be reliable enough to be dependable outside of a studio. The more complexity, the more things are likely to go South without warning.
It may be ten times easier to get half of what you want, that old Law of Diminishing Returns starts to kick in.
I'm not trying to dissuade you here, but I think most of us who have modded many guitars would hesitate to undertake a project such as this.
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Post by thetragichero on May 4, 2011 14:20:34 GMT -5
i haven't modded many (i guess my count is up to five?), but this looks daunting as all get out! like the others, i'm not trying to discourage you at all, but you might want to try a few smaller things first (it took a second COMPLETE rewiring to get my tele in 100% working order)
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 4, 2011 20:07:29 GMT -5
I mean the electronics will be mounted on the pickguard, similar to a Strat. I understand completely. I plan on spending an enormous amount of time on this project once I save up the money. I also don't expect it to work just like that. The plan is to do this sometime when I have a lot of free time as well (e.g., summer, Thanksgiving, or Christmas break). I was also thinking of cutting a little test pickguard out of cardboard and mounting everything on that and maybe just do all the wiring around that time as opposed to later after a more significant amount of time has been invested. One last thing: I know this will only complicate things further, but I actually forgot to include a series/parallel switch for the pups (not for each individual coil like the T-Shots; I mean like www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2ts_2v_2t_phsp). EDIT1:@ JFrankParnell: Could I just wire up a each pickup+T-shot to a D sub connector and the corresponding d sub connector to some wires connected to a push/pull volume pot (to be used as a phase switch) thus cutting the need for the liberators and individual phase switches? ^ Poorly worded and may not even make any sense, my apologies. END EDIT1
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 4, 2011 20:58:30 GMT -5
well, for the connectors, to do it my way, you need a pin for each wire coming from the pups, plus 2 pins for the jack. Now, you're going to need at least one more for the jack if youre doing stereo. The Tshots are going to help, cuz they reduce a 4 wire pup to 2 wires (if i understand them). With the phase switches, if you have 2 pups, you only need to switch the phase on 1 to make them out of phase. Out of phase means 1 pup "out of phase with" the other. Um, so you need 1 phase switch per 'stereo channel'. On the push/pulls, they are simply a switch glommed onto a pot, the switch and pot have nothing to do with each other. Dude, I'm also in the 'this is too hard for a noob, hell it's too hard for me' camp. But, wtf, right? So, try to think of it all in modules, try to build it out in modules. Make one side of the stereo thing first, get to know your Tshots and switches, see what that stuff sounds like. Follow your heart, Napolean, just dont wind up in the gutter of the Boulevard of Broken Dreams ;D
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Post by newey on May 4, 2011 21:51:14 GMT -5
Well, tvr, if we can't dissuade you from this, at least keep us posted as this moves along. I, for one, can't wait to see it! The idea to use some other type of connectors and ditch the Liberator things on the Vol pots has merit, I think. Then you could use concentric pots for both the volumes and tones. The usual way is to put each pickup's V and T together on one concentric pot, but you can also stack the volumes on one and the tones on the other. You may also want to explore whether both CRTL-X circuits can be run off of a single battery (and still have a reasonable battery life). This would save some space and weight if do-able. Attack this problem using the idea of modular design, draw up one module at a time and we'll help check each one and give suggestions along the way. For example, each CRTL-X circuit is a module. Each concentric pot is another module. Several modules in your design will be duplicates because of the stereo set-up. As each module is completed on paper, it is then incorporated into the overall design, so that you end up with a complete "road map".
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 4, 2011 22:19:52 GMT -5
@ JFrankParnell: s1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/TVRobot/?action=view¤t=Capture.jpgSo something along the lines of this? Of course this diagram doesn't have the concentric tone or the Piezo stuff but Ima definitely add that later. I'm just wondering if that's what you mean when your talking about the d sub connectors. AND WHY DON'T YA GO MAKE YERSELF A DANG QUESADILLA! @ newey: I'll definitely design it the way your talking about when I'm drawing up the final draft of the wiring diagram. Also the concentric pot for each pup sounds good, I'll probably do that. Also good news, I found a review for the LR Baggs T-Bridge on StewMac and the guy had hooked it up to a CTRL-X and stuck it in his Les Paul (which of course uses a 3 way pup selector switch). So after some Google stalking I think I've got his email so I'm going to try and maybe hit him up for some help with connecting the CTRL-X and the 3 way switch. But I'll definitely keep you guys posted and what not once this craziness begins for real.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 4, 2011 22:39:04 GMT -5
@ JFrankParnell: s1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/TVRobot/?action=view¤t=Capture.jpgSo something along the lines of this? Of course this diagram doesn't have the concentric tone or the Piezo stuff but Ima definitely add that later. I'm just wondering if that's what you mean when your talking about the d sub connectors. AND WHY DON'T YA GO MAKE YERSELF A DANG QUESADILLA! lol, yeah. Um, why do the Tshots have w/b *and* ground coming out? sposed to be a sheilding thing? To me, the main thing is to have the circuit, pots, switches be able to come out while leaving the pups and more importantly, the strings be able to stay in. But, yeah, looks like youre on the right track for the connectors.
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 4, 2011 23:03:42 GMT -5
I'm like 99% positive that it's a shielding thing, I could be wrong though (since I'm a mega nub). Here's SD's installation video, I believe Frank mentions the bare wire at about 8:10. www.seymourduncan.com/movie/Triple_Shot/352/228Cool beans.
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Post by sumgai on May 5, 2011 2:21:49 GMT -5
someting about building a s-pot full of Nutzness +1 for the Huevos* sumgai *ref. Major League, part II
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 5, 2011 17:58:43 GMT -5
+1 for the old Charlie Sheen movie reference and the appreciation for massive huevos. Also I was curious If I could use a 4-pole 3-way switch for switching between pups and be able to hook the CTRL-X up to that? Aren't 4-pole switches going to be something like "bridge, middle, neck, common" or something like that? I was looking at this one: www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Switches_and_knobs/Megaswitches/Megaswitch_T-Model.html
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Post by newey on May 5, 2011 20:30:58 GMT -5
You're looking at the StewMac Megaswitches, which are the same as the Schaller Megaswitches, which in turn are the same as the EYB Megaswitches. They are different than the Superswitch.
Each different version of the Megaswitch is designed to do a different, specific thing. The one you linked to is designed to duplicate regular old Tele wiring- it's a three-way switch (2P3T).
I think you are confusing a switch's number of "throws" ("T") with its "poles" ("P") Each pole is a separate switch, meaning a separate set of connections. A throw is not always equivalent to a separate position on a switch, but it usually is. "4 Poles", however, most decidedly does not mean "4 positions".
What you want is a switch with 4 positions, in this case equal to 4 throws (4T). This would, if possible, yield N/N+Br/Br/CRTL-X in its 4 positions.
There is the "Baja Tele" 4-position, 2 pole switch (2P4T). One pole could be used to switch the pickups in the standard fashion (N/N+Br /Br) in positions 1-3, with the second pole used at position 4 to turn the active circuitry on.
The difficulty is that, ideally, you would also cut the 9V power when not at position 4 as well (i.e., taking the piezo out of the circuit and cutting its power at the same time.) This would require another pole, that is, you'd need a 3P4T switch, and if such a thing exists, I haven't seen one. Except in a rotary switch.
There are other ways to deal with the power issue, however. The Baja Tele switch might be an option for you.
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 5, 2011 21:11:10 GMT -5
Ah okay then.
But isn't the mini toggle on the CTRL-X supposed to let me switch between the magnetic pups and the piezo pup? (Mags/Mags+Piezo/Piezo)
In the CTRL-X manual (see original post) I see wires coming from the mini-toggle going to the to the common lugs (is that the right term for them?) on the 5 way switch. since there's only 2 pups wouldn't it make sense to have a 2P3T with those common lugs? (again don't know if that's correct)
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Post by newey on May 5, 2011 21:34:42 GMT -5
Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were trying to eliminate the toggle switch. Yes, a 2P3T toggle would do it instead of the 5-way.
This is not the same as a Gibson-type toggle switch, as seen on LPs, SGs, etc. That is a "single pole double throw center-on" switch (SPDT On-On-On).
Even though the Gibby switch has three positions, it only has 2 throws; the center position is not a separate throw, but simple shorts the 2 throws together. That's one of the exceptions as I mentioned- the number of "positions" is not always equal to the number of "throws".
You will need one with two poles.
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 5, 2011 21:50:58 GMT -5
Alrighty then. Thanks for the info about the Gibson style 3 way, I was scratching my head wondering if I could use that in some crazy way (I think they look prettier then most other switches). So I guess that means I'm gonna start designing the final thing now, but now that I'm using the d sub connectors instead of the liberators I'm now going to have to figure out if there's someway I could work in that Fernandes fsk-101 I was eyeballing (the liberators prevented me from throwing one in)
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 12, 2011 18:13:32 GMT -5
Alright so I'm trying to reduce the number of switches on the guitar right now, and I think it's possible to use a 4 way tele switch (found one on Guitar Electronics) to have the pup switching wired like: B/N/B+N in series/B+N in parallel. But I was wondering if I could take it a step further have B/N/B+N in series/B+N in Parallel/B+N series out of phase/B+N parallel out of phase using a 6 way rotary, similar to the 3rd wiring diagram on this page alexplorer.net/guitar/mods/rotary.html.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 12, 2011 20:24:58 GMT -5
looks like the 3rd diagram does would that be for one module of the stereo?
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 12, 2011 21:07:03 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 12, 2011 21:41:21 GMT -5
ok, and this is for humbuckers? so, I'd do triple shots on the buckers and then those 6 way switches, that would give you tons of sounds
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 12, 2011 21:52:11 GMT -5
The plan right now is to have humbuckers for one module and then 2 single coils in module 2. But that switch would totally work with the T-shots? It looks like it would want the north start and south start from the way the guy describes it on the website. Also would I encounter some kind of issue with grounding if I had a single coil wired to the t-shots, which would be wired to the rotary switch? The reason for me asking is that I'm considering just buying 4 T-shots just right off the bat so then I wouldn't have to buy another one every time I picked up another 4 conductor pup but at the same time if I had a 2 conductor single coil I was thinking there might be some problems.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 12, 2011 22:12:54 GMT -5
single coils dont go in the tshots. the porpoise of the tshot is to give you either coil/parallel/series *within that humbucker pup". Thats not neck-bridge in paralell or series, but the 2 neck coils par/ser. (and of course, the same options with the bridge.) Normally, the 2 coils would be in series. So, the t shot does the coil tapping (aka, split to single coil) and intra pup ser/par. There are just 2 wires coming from the tshots (afaik), so those would wire to your 6way. I've never used em, but if I had a 2 HB guitar, I would fershure.
there wont be any issue with the single coils and ground, cuz they are 2 separate modules that never interact.
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 12, 2011 22:44:43 GMT -5
I realize that the T-shots aren't meant for single coils, I'm wondering though if the single coil pups will still function as intended. I know the switches on the t-shots wouldn't do anything, I would just need to know that if the single coils go through the t-shots, that they would still produce sound and I wouldn't have any problem with them being grounded and what not.
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 12, 2011 23:48:22 GMT -5
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tvrobot
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Post by tvrobot on May 13, 2011 8:22:28 GMT -5
Yes, but should the day ever come that I want to replace the single coils with some filtertrons or some mini hums or something I don't want to have to worry about buying more T-shots.
So the single coils would still work as intended?
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