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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 3, 2011 22:20:35 GMT -5
Hi Everybody, Some may remember... about a year ago I installed an on/on/on dpdt mini toggle switch in my strat copy which removes the middle pickup from the output, or lets it sound alone, or mixes it with the signal selected from the other two pickups. The main original reason was so I could use neck and bridge together. That still works fine, but now I've changed the middle pickup for a hot rails humbucker to use as a sort of boost effect. The other two pickups are "Fender Original Stratocaster '67/'62" modern vintage replicas. I've wired the guitar's regular volume as a master volume and the regular tone knob as a master tone, both working fine. I'd like to use the third knob as a pickup volume for just the middle humbucking pickup, while still using the master volume. I wired my rails humbucker to that knob and then from that knob to the mini toggle. The other side of the mini toggle comes from a 3-way blade (tele-style) switch which selects between bridge and neck pickups or both. The line from the mini toggle goes to the master volume. Most of it is working as I wanted  ...just not quite.  My goal was to be able to put my mini toggle in the middle position (so the humbucker and one or both singles would effectively be "on") but be able to keep the humbucker's volume off and dial in a little as I want it. When I try that, however, turning that third knob down turns the complete output down and off. I was hoping that it would only affect the humbucker and allow me to dial it up to the level of the master volume or down to nothing, while the selected single coil(s) remain the same. Instead, it seems to take over the master's job. This problem reminds me of the deal with the two volume knobs on a Les Paul or the separate volumes plus master volume as I've read some Gretsches have, but I'm not getting any ideas from looking at schematics of them. I'm hoping that's just me. Does anyone understand what I'm trying to do and can anyone help me understand how to do it? I hope I haven't made my explanation too confusing (being confused myself doesn't help, I know.) Thanks as always! I hope everyone is doing well. Happy Springtime! |
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Post by newey on May 4, 2011 5:42:08 GMT -5
If the goal is to have the middle pup be an independent module from the N and Br pups, why is the middle pup wired to the toggle switch for Br and neck at all? Seems to me it should be going straight to the master V and T, or perhaps directly to the output if you want to avoid all interaction between the controls.
The way you have the pots wired may also affect this. Do you have a diagram of your wiring?
BTW, Happy Birthday!
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Post by Glass Snuff on May 4, 2011 6:40:44 GMT -5
I suspect the answer is going to be "remove the ground from the humbucker's volume pot".
But the pickup needs to be grounded somewhere, so yes, a schematic would help.
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Post by ChristoMephisto on May 4, 2011 7:47:49 GMT -5
Isn't that similar to the S-Tastic that has the middle pup on a separate volume? Yeah it is like the LP syndrome where turning down one kills the whole sound. Wire the pups to the middle lug instead of the outside one. Connect the outputs of the volume pots to the jack. |
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Post by ashcatlt on May 4, 2011 8:52:02 GMT -5
Guys?
He's got a Tele style 3-way controlling B and N and a mini toggle to select between that and the middle. That part seems to work as intended.
Christo's got the right idea for the Mid V, though. Just swap the wiper with the outside lug which is not grounded and leave the rest alone.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 4, 2011 11:24:24 GMT -5
If the goal is to have the middle pup be an independent module from the N and Br pups, why is the middle pup wired to the toggle switch for Br and neck at all? Partly, I admit, because I already have the little switch there from my previous slightly different idea(s.) Also, if it were the way you're saying I couldn't use just the middle alone. (Unless I made the third knob a blend, I guess.) This way I can use the oldschool Strat pickups alone or together and then switch directly to only the presumably much more powerful rails at the flick of the mini toggle, something I might theoretically like to do sometime. I'm probably looking forward to that mostly just because when I'm just practicing or learning while studying a book or lesson video or just while watching TV or something, I get annoyed by the hum of the single coils. Seems to me it should be going straight to the master V and T, or perhaps directly to the output if you want to avoid all interaction between the controls. I definitely want the master tone and master volume to effect whichever pickup(s) I'm using. Partly because my master volume is a kill-pot so it's a killswitch/mute when pushed in. Isn't that similar to the S-Tastic that has the middle pup on a separate volume? Ummm... I think that's over my head. Wire the pups to the middle lug instead of the outside one. Connect the outputs of the volume pots to the jack. Christo's got the right idea for the Mid V, though. Just swap the wiper with the outside lug which is not grounded and leave the rest alone. Yeah, that's the kind of thought I was trying to think. I just don't yet have the wherewithall to suggest it to myself. Thanks for the suggestion, Christo and seconding it Ash. I'll try it this evening and let ya'll know how it went. Thanks! I wasn't thinking of the date when doing the work or asking the question about how to do it, but I guess this rewiring thing is like a subconscious birthday present to myself. I got this new Dragonfire Hot Rails humbucker and changed the colour of pickup covers and knobs, as well as getting myself a back/trem cover plate that matches (very close, at least) my pickguard. All that stuff from a place called guitarpartsonline.com/ (a.k.a. TNT Guitars) came to only $45. It now has a very unique look all it's own, which I'm sure many would describe as an "eyesore" but I consider kind of off-putting in a good way. Blue/purple/red with some black and chrome goin' on. Looking at it kinda makes yer face feel like yer sucking a lemon. Intense, man! Thanks for everyone's input! Pics and progress report later! (Optimistically speaking.) |
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Post by ashcatlt on May 4, 2011 12:07:31 GMT -5
Just want to make sure that you understand (and are okay with the fact) that the mid volume will still be in effect after you flick that mini-toggle. If you want to go from B+N with a little M to M wide open you'll have to flip the switch and then turn the pot.
Were you hoping to have an override there?
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 4, 2011 15:12:50 GMT -5
Just want to make sure that you understand (and are okay with the fact) that the mid volume will still be in effect after you flick that mini-toggle. If you want to go from B+N with a little M to M wide open you'll have to flip the switch and then turn the pot. Yes, I'm pretty sure (pretty sure, I say) that I understand how you're explaining it would work and that that is how I wanted it to work. That way I could effectively have the humbucker on alone, with it's volume turned down while the master volume is up higher. Then when I switch the mini-toggle to the single coils, they should then be louder than the humbucker. My original goal I mentioned with this was to be able to play the single coils and either switch to or dial in (possibly in staccato bursts? how rockin' would that be?) some humbucker sound. I'm also hoping that the humbucker in the middle might sound a little jazzy with the volume turned down. I've read that some people consider the middle position of the strat with the trem cavity to sound slightly hollow in tone. |
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 4, 2011 18:52:58 GMT -5
AS-IT-HAPPENS UPDATE:
Ok, so I just changed those two wires around and everything appears to be working as I wanted. I haven't restrung it, but according to what's on when... it all seems good. I was hoping it was just a little change like that but couldn't think of what change. As always, glad I asked here and very appreciative of such fast and knowledgeable replies! Thanks everybody!
Now I just have to get the guitar put back together and see what it sounds and looks like. Thanks again.
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Post by Glass Snuff on May 5, 2011 6:14:51 GMT -5
I can't believe you guys recommend wiring a volume pot backwards.
When you get it strung up, if the humbucker becomes too dull and lifeless when rolled off, take my suggestion and remove the ground from the pot. Short of putting in a treble bypass, you'll always lose some highs when turning it down, but by not giving the pickup a shorter path to ground you'll retain more of the output and tone.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 5, 2011 9:37:37 GMT -5
Thanks, Glass. I'll definitely keep that in mind. I got it done last night and at least everything's functioning but I honestly can't say what I think of the sound. I only tried it for a couple minutes and that was after too much whisky. I did maybe get the "dull and lifeless" impression of the humbucker... sort of the way I feel this morning. Wouldn't the grounding be pretty much the same no matter where I put the ground wires due to the shielding, anyways? I'll be interested to see what everyone else says about your idea.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 5, 2011 11:40:10 GMT -5
So... The red pups are Fender Original Stratocaster '57/'62 and the other is a Dragonfire Hot Rails humbucker. The red switch is a 3-way between Neck and Bridge or both together. The black knob is the volume for the black pickup and is a push/pull pot for a single rail when pulled out. The red knobs are master tone and master volume, with is also a killswitch when pressed in. The red pickups are on when the mini-toggle is pointing towards the red switch, the rails on when it's pointing away and rails and reds blended when mini's in centre. It's kinda colour-coded. Incidentally, I actually took a Fender book to the hardware store when I bought the paint for my music/computer room and matched it to my favourite example of a Seafoam Strat. Got some cute little scuffs around the jack in the process. I guess that was while trying and failing to get the pickguard back in place. Because of the overhang of the fingerboard and the bulk of some of the pots, I now have to remove the neck to remove the pickguard. I'm working on filing away the pickguard around the neck but didn't do it enough. I was worried I'd screw it up in my drunken stupor so I just put it back like this for now.  I got the idea of the red knobs and stuff because of the red writing on the headstock. I put that neck on the guitar because I really like the feel of it, but always thought the black head on the dark blue body looked out-of-place and the red writing made it worse. So now it looks like controlled chaos or something. Or something.  Thanks again for everyone's help. I'll probably need more after playing around with it some more after work. I've only tried it with my tiny Danelectro Honeytone amp. Looking forward to trying it with the tube amp and some pedals tonight! |
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 6, 2011 13:43:44 GMT -5
Short of putting in a treble bypass I think I will put a small cap on the humbucker's volume pot. (Not on the master volume.) Just been reading about that and didn't realize how simple it was, plus I think I have some extras. I thought I'd need a resistor as well and I don't have any so I didn't put much thought into it. Now I've seen pages where just a 0.001mf cap with no resistor is recommended for humbuckers, so I think I'll try that out for fun. The humbucker does get kinda muddy and "lifeless" when not up all the way, even in single coil mode. The real single coils sound great, though. Probably an illusion, but I almost feel like they sound better than ever. (Must be the red covers adding mojo! That could happen, y'know.) I really like hearing the difference between the N and B pups using just the switch and the master tone rather than each having a tone control as I previously had it wired. The N and B are exactly the same pickup so it's cool to know it's just the positioning making the difference. In the set of Fender pickups I got, all three are the same, as they did it in the original Stratocasters. |
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on May 11, 2011 22:52:30 GMT -5
Only been a few days and I changed a couple things already, so I figured I'd mention them and post a correct final pic. (...as if it's final.) I moved the middle/humbucker volume to the middle knob. I pulled the shaft of the push/pull out in the process, busting it's innards. I replaced that with a regular pot, giving up the coil split which I didn't care too much about anyways, and changing the knob for the other style, only in black. Also added a treble bleed to it, which is better.  Looks better, sounds better, plays better.... I'm Ok, I'll be happier when I find a really glam blue/purple/silver star sticker for above the truss nut on the headstock, but that's just  I saw a good line in someone's signature on another guitar forum today, which I think applies to me: "You gonna play it or you gonna polish it?" |
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...just not quite. 
