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Post by ozboomer on May 24, 2011 20:54:49 GMT -5
As you might be aware, I've been doing a fair bit of experimenting with some simple wiring changes, pickup changes, etc using my (c. 2006, Chinese) Squier Bullet Strat during the last couple of years ( see SimpleMod + ToneMod = ... ). One of the mods I made in the early days was to include a "Neck On" switch, so that the Neck pickup output can be added (in parallel) to whatever pickup selection is made using the 5-way switch. There were a couple of times when I tried this mod; the first used the stock Bullet single coil pickups (ceramic, Bridge = 5.4k, Middle = 5.2k, Neck = 5.2k)... the second used Dragonfire pickups (ceramic, Middle = 6.0k, Neck = 6.0k) and a GFS Dream 90 pickup (alnico V, Bridge = 8.7k). When I had the (Bridge+Neck) combination using the first version, the output seemed kindof lack-lustre to me. It almost sounded like I'd just turned up the tone control a tiny bit with a Neck pickup alone selected. So, that was a bit of a non- event. The (Bridge+Neck) combination using the 2nd version seemed to be a bit of an improvement and the sound produced was quiet appealing to my ear. It was like the Neck had a good bit of brightness added to it... or you could describe it as the Bridge had a nice bit of mid-range added to it. Overall, this version had me thinking the "Neck On" switch would be a worthwhile mod (when the pickups were "suitable"). Near as I can work out, I'm guessing the (perceived) improvement in the sound with the second version comes from the significant differences in the pickups that are bing combined. If the pickups are substantially the same (as in the first version), you won't really hear much of a change in the sound -- there are too many similarities in the response of the pickups so there's no interesting frequency shifts, or frequency boosts/cuts. If the pickups are substantially different, though (as in the second version), you will likely hear something more interesting. Whether it's ceramic c.f. alnico or 6.0k c.f. 8.7k (a 45% difference), I'm not sure... What do you think? Hmm... For example, if the resistance is one of the governing factors, and I have pickups that are all 6k for example, if the "Neck On" switch incorporates a 3k resistor in series with the Neck pickup output, will that affect the sound? ...or is this another example of just having to bite the bullet and do some (potentially expensive) experimenting? The purpose of all this is that now that I have determined what sorts of mods I like, I'm going to upgrade the pickups (and the wiring) in my (c. 2006) Squier Affinity Strat. I like the idea of trying some alnico-based pickups 'coz all the guitars I play have ceramic pickups (except for that Dream 90). ...but if I'm going to include the "Neck On" mod over the standard wiring, I would like to get a set of alnicos that will actually give me a different sound out of the "Bridge+Neck" combination... so that might decide on what pickups I buy. ...and I've realized now that the "ultimate price" for ANY of the (so-called) "budget" pickups will still end-up in the AUD80-120 price mark, so I've expanded the options a mite:- In any event, I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have, as to my theories of what pickup attributes make the "Neck On" mod "sound good"(!) or if you had any experiences with the (new) pickup options I've mentioned. Thanks a heap, everyone... John
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Post by cynical1 on May 24, 2011 21:16:56 GMT -5
I don't even have to think. Go with the Wilde Keystones.
HTC1
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Post by lpf3 on May 24, 2011 21:20:35 GMT -5
oz- I recently installed a set of Heavy Air pups in my Tele & really like em - might be worth a look for your Strat. Dave's a great guy to deal with, too. -lpf3
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Post by newey on May 24, 2011 21:21:50 GMT -5
Can you perhaps afford . . .ahhh . . .a 3K resistor? Just test it external to the guitar, with the neck on alone. That will show you how it sounds. It really doesn't matter where that extra 3K of resistance gets added to the circuit. I'm not sure the results will be to your liking; remember there's a lot more to the sound of a pickup than just overall resistance. But it's certainly cheap enough to get some empirical data if that's what you think is gonna float yer canoe.
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Post by ozboomer on May 24, 2011 21:53:58 GMT -5
Hmm.. some good thoughts already, thanks folks... Alas, lpf3, those pickups/sets are beyond my budget, running at just shy of AUD200(!), let alone including shipping from the UK to Oz(!) It really doesn't matter where that extra 3K of resistance gets added to the circuit. I'm not sure about that, acshually... Let's say we're using pickups that are all at 6.0k and we add a 3k resistor... If I have the bridge pickup alone selected and that's combined in parallel with the neck pickup (which is what the "Neck On" switch would do), the total resistance would be: 1/(1/R B + 1/R N) = 3.0k. If I put the additional resistance after the Neck pickup and before the main output, the resistance would be 1/(1/R B + 1/(R N+res)) = 3.6k. If the resistor is placed on the output line alone, the total resistance would be 1/(1/R B + 1/R N) + res = 6.0k, which is quite different. Also, having the extra resistor in the output line would ALWAYS have it there, which is not what we want; it only wants to be "in-circuit" when the "Neck On" is switched ON. ...but there's certainly some more good food for thought there, in terms of HOW to experiment, Fanx!... John
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Post by newey on May 24, 2011 22:59:46 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting mounting it permanently on the output, I was suggesting doing it solely for testing purposes, to give an idea of what the neck pickup alone would sound like with the extra resistance. Yes, adding in another pickup will change the equation.
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Post by ozboomer on May 24, 2011 23:21:51 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting mounting it permanently on the output, I was suggesting doing it solely for testing purposes, to give an idea of what the neck pickup alone would sound like with the extra resistance. Yes, adding in another pickup will change the equation. Understood. Dumbo, me... I sorta realized I could even do sumfin' like record some tones with the Neck only + resistor... and then do the same thing with the Bridge only... and mix it down and get a rough idea of how 'different' things have to be... As I said, some more ways of experimenting that I hadn't thought of...
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Post by sumgai on May 25, 2011 1:31:56 GMT -5
ozzy, Still, your math looked pretty good to me, as far as it went. Sadly, the resistance you quoted is really a non-indicator of anything, tone or otherwise. Inductance would be a good start, permeability of the magnets, might be another. You know, esoteric things like that are what really do determine how a pickup will sound. And when that's done, then you get to start in on strings. They all sound different, or at least they're supposed to! To directly address your concerns, I find that on my alnico-equipped Strat, the B+N combo sounds a tiny bit like the Middle, when the Vol pot is turned down part-way. When it's wide-open, the tonal difference is dramatic. I call the (Vol at 10) sound "chimey", it seems to knock out some of the mids, but the lows are still extant. And even then, moving your pick to different spots along the string will emphasize different "chime" sounds moreso that just one pickup by itself. Or so it seems to me anyways. Which is why I just stomp on the MIDI footswitch to go between one model or another - no more hard decisions! ;D ............. Although I might change my tune, were I to come across a set of Kinmans. What's a set of them go for these days? His site uses IP location technology, so I get only the USA price.... which I might add has not risen in at least 4 years. HTH sumgai
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Post by ozboomer on May 25, 2011 6:43:09 GMT -5
My dear sumgai ... ...is really a non-indicator of anything, tone or otherwise. Inductance would be a good start, permeability of the magnets, might be another. You know, esoteric things like that are what really do determine how a pickup will sound. Ya, I knooow... and it's always the same ol' problem of trying to describe the indescribable... Ultimately, the best thing is always to hear the pickups... but, like everyone else, I'm just trying to shortcut the time and expense thing, I guess... The voice of experience... Use the way the 'known' pickup combinations sound to describe the sound of the 'new' pickup combination... or explain how you would achieve the 'new' sound by modifying the 'old'. Still, there's no attribute of the combined pickups that can be correlated with the change of tone, hmm? For example, (B+M) is (7k+6k) but (B+N) is (7k+5k) and the combination is "chimey"? No, that's not it... What about (B+M) is 'good' but (B+N) is similar to (B+M) with less volume? Not really.. and will I get that same sort of sound behaviour with MY pickups? Virtually certain that I won't.... Dang. On reflection, it seems this is one of those questions you just don't ask... and like going through (series connections) c.f. (out-of-phase), and the sound of (humbuckers split into single coils) c.f. (single coil) -- you just have to go through the motions and shed the blood, sweat and tears and accept that there IS no answer to the question... and just get on with trying things out and deciding on some arrangement that will work for ME. Pfft. ... ... ... Currently around the AUD400 mark for a set of 3... and I bet with my non-sophisticated ear, I couldn't tell the difference between them and a set of 'garden variety' alnicos that cost AUD100. Heck. I'm such a hack...
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Post by ashcatlt on May 25, 2011 8:49:07 GMT -5
Here's what I think:
The difference is in the relative output level of the pickups.
Your first set sounds like all three pickups were about the same and would produce about the same voltage for a given string velocity. Problem there is that the string moves quite a bit faster at the neck position than at the bridge. The voltage output from the neck will be greater than that of the bridge, and when the two are mixed together, the neck will dominate.
In your second set the bridge pickup is apparently hotter than the neck, which gives a more satisfactory balance between the two.
There's a reason that most "matched sets" have the bridge hotter than middle and middle hotter than neck. If all other things about the pickups are the same, then the higher resistance will indicate more output, and probably a little darker, because there's more windings, but it's hard to say when comparing pickups which are otherwise dissimilar.
Did you experiment at all with pickup height in that first set? Did you try blending in the neck at somewhere less than its full volume?
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Post by thetragichero on May 25, 2011 10:29:21 GMT -5
i just put a push/pull giving me bridge and neck in series and i'm a HUGE fan of that tone now... might wanna do series instead of parallel?
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Post by sumgai on May 26, 2011 2:17:29 GMT -5
Two things, One, TTH does have a point, series B*N is a viable tone for most players. But the additional hoops to go through for wiring this up, yuck. Two, more windings will increase the DC resistance, and all other things being equal, such will also increase the AC impedance, although the knee where the frequency starts tapering off moves in accordance with that inductive factor. Where balance is supposed to come into play is that the magnet placement within the bobbin (core) of the windings determines the voltage that will be generated, per string vibration intensity. When I see differing resistance values (DC or AC) beiing touted as balanced (presumably across a set of pups), I just shake my head and go 'tsk, tsk, tsk'. All that increased resistance is going to do to one's tone is darken it up - more resistance (which usually is a simplified way of saying more impedance) raises the inductance of a pup, and that in turn reduces the output in the higher end of the frequency band. The apparent effect is that the low-end and the mids appear to be stronger, which might be microscopically true, but to my ears, they are not only 'dark', they are also muddy, lacking clarity and definition. GeFooey! But that's just me, and who am I to tell every distorted guitar player on the planet what they should sound like...... HTH sumgai
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Post by ijustwannastrat on May 26, 2011 8:30:57 GMT -5
But that's just me, and who am I to tell every distorted guitar player on the planet what they should sound like...... Bzzt, who is "The Boss?" On a more serious note, I guess I've never asked. What's going through guitars? AC or DC? I would assume AC, just because you're got metal cutting lines of magnetic flux to create electricity. Or am I WAY totally off out there?
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Post by newey on May 26, 2011 8:40:59 GMT -5
You assume correctly.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 26, 2011 8:56:21 GMT -5
Well, okay, whatever. Let me put it another way.
My Rickenbacker and LP have only two pickups each, Neck and Bridge. Both of them have the "hotter", higher-Z pickup at the Bridge. With pickup heights properly adjusted to give the relatively even output, the middle position (N+B) is my favorite of the sounds. Neck is generally a bit too dark and boomy and Bridge is a bit nasal and thin. Both are good for special effects, but not for general use. The middle position is a "best of both worlds" and actually a little brighter or "airier" than either thanks to the parallelization of the inductances.
My Strat has a "matched set" of L'il Killers with a 15K (in series mode) in the Bridge and a 6K in the Neck. I can select for each of these either local series, parallel, or single coil and then combine them in system parallel. Every combination of these (too early to calculate how many right now) is useful for something, though I tend to prefer the sound of both in local series.
I'm still sticking with an overall volume mismatch between your neck and bridge pickups. If the N+B is way too dark and/or barely different from the Neck alone then either there's something wrong with the wiring, or the neck pickup is dominating the mix. Adding a series resistor might help, but only to the extent that it evens out the mix.
The first thing I would try (after verifying the wiring) would be adjusting the pickup height. It's cheap, easy, and can make a world of difference.
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Post by ozboomer on May 26, 2011 11:44:16 GMT -5
Have been a bit crook, lately.. and it caught up with me a bit.. but let's just say... I'm still sticking with an overall volume mismatch between your neck and bridge pickups. If the N+B is way too dark and/or barely different from the Neck alone then either there's something wrong with the wiring, or the neck pickup is dominating the mix. Back in the early days (~18 months ago), I wasn't quite with it, about adjusting pickup heights and such.. so I didn't make those adjustments on the 'first version'. With the 'second version', I'd already been thinking about pickup heights (both across the strings and between each pickup) so I might have 'inadvertantly' 'tuned-in' the B+N sound to something I like/where I can hear a difference... I'll never really know for sure unless I do 'em all again from scratch (but I'm not gonna break what I like the sound of now!) Fanx! a lot for that particular clue... ...as he updates his 'notebook of guitar set-up magic'...
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Post by ozboomer on Jun 3, 2011 23:08:21 GMT -5
Well, after doing the on-line listening (as subjective and as unreliable as it can be), I went and played a few Squier Classic Vibe models over the last many days (mainly because of the rumour mill identifed by this Strat-Talk posting)... and whether or not it's true or another 'urban myth', I decided I most-liked the sounds of the Tonerider Pure Vintage pickups... and I ordered a set from a 'local' (within Aust. anyway) supplier a couple of days ago. Together with some other bits'n'pieces I've ordered today from a couple of US-based on-line stores, I'll be starting on a lil' upgrade within the next month... ...but more details will follow elsewhere in the NutzHouse ...
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