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Post by thetragichero on Jun 16, 2011 12:57:06 GMT -5
no more chipped black poly! from what i've read on reranch, the rough overspray of the first thin coat doesn't need to be sanded because it will melt in with subsequent coats?  |
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 16, 2011 15:33:31 GMT -5
no more chipped black poly! Well, if you think poly chips easily, wait until you start bumping lacquer around... Granted, it looks real pretty all polished up, it's easy to work with and the Tone Nazi's put it in their coffee...but it is without a doubt the worst finish you can put on a piece of wood you use everyday. There, I said it and I'm not sorry... Overspray indicates you're too far from the body, or moving too fast. What I would suggest on the first coat is a 3M ultra fine abrasive pad. You want to knock the gloss off and any dust or debris that settled on the body while the lacquer setup, but depending on how thick your first round was you don't want to go into the wood. The run you've got up at the neck pocket should be addressed before the next coat, though. Some ordinary 400 grit sandpaper on a very small block should do it. Wait a few days to make sure the lacquer has shrunk first. And since you've got the guitar on a neck board, you can spray two or three passes with the lacquer. Just do the front, turn, back, turn and repeat. Keep moving and start your passes before the body and continue after the body. And if it's Reranch, then it's a spray can. Remember to turn the can upside down and depress the tip to clear the nozzle. And the wait time for final sanding and buffing\polishing on air dried\cured lacquer is approx 21-31 day depending on temperature and humidity...unless you've got a friend with a baking oven... When you can put your nose right up to the body and not smell solvent then you can polish it. And yes, lacquer does melt into the previous coats and can be recoated anytime. This is handy for repairs down the road too. Were you planning on shooting a clear coat? Happy Trails Cynical One EDIT: One other thing. Maybe it's the image, but it appears you've got some nick or dings in the body. Lacquer is not very good at filling these in, unless you shoot and sand a lot of coats. Before you hit the next few coats, you can fill those with some gel Crazy Glue. Just drip in in the dings and light sand with some 400 grit paper. Crazy glue sands pretty easy and after 2-3 more coats you'll never know it's there. |
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 16, 2011 16:56:43 GMT -5
i plan on at least two or three clear coats
there are nicks and dings in the body but i'm fine with those... just glad to have this body come back to life in a pretty colour
wow i didn't realize it took so long to dry out... how long should i wait between coats?
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 16, 2011 18:37:24 GMT -5
Welcome to the wonderful over-rated world of nitrocellulose lacquer...
Lacquer can be re-coated at any time. If I'm rushing I shoot 2 passes, wait 20 minutes and shoot 2 more...I've even done three routines like this to make a delivery....then after an hour I dragged it over to a buddy of mine's body shop and for a case of beer...which I drank a quarter of, he baked the lacquer for me...
You might want to think twice about not filling the inclusions and flaws before you shoot the next color coat. If you're shooting clearcoats you want the surface to be as smooth and clean as possible. Those divots will collect the dust from sanding and if you don't get it out they'll float into your clearcoat.
The Crazy Glue will dry overnight and can be sanded the next morning. Doing it now allows the next few color coats to blend in better over the fill.
And when you go to buff your final clearcoat they stick out like a sore thumb.
You're going to be putting a lot of time and work into this with the 400, 800, 1200 wet or dry sanding, buffing compound, polishing compound and finally swirl remover... Why half-butt it from the beginning? 5 minutes of fill now will make all the difference at the end...and save you from the dreaded "oh sh_t" moment later...
HTC1
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 16, 2011 19:11:32 GMT -5
would you be for or against using the cloth buffer attachment on me dremel for final buffing?
or is it better to do by hand?
... i should've stuck with krylon!
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 16, 2011 19:34:27 GMT -5
Actually, using modern automotive finishes, Surf Green DuPont Duco #2461 in your case, are the easiest in the long run...provided you have a compressor and a gun...but I digress...
Anyway. as far as buffing. Let me ask you this, have you ever buffed a finish out with an electric buffer? If no, then hand buff it. It can be very easy to burn the finish unless you know what you're doing. I hand buffed Project #1, which was just automotive catalyst lacquer. Sure, it take a while longer, but getting into tight spaces is impossible for most electric buffers.
And to directly answer your question, no, don't recommend using a Dremel tool to buff your finish. A little rubbing compound on the polishing wheel is great for polishing frets...makes'em shine like chrome...but it's too small and centralized to do anything more then probably burn your finish.
I've seen the foam pad attachments for Dremel tools, but I just don't trust them. To me it looks like just as much work as hand buffing, with all the drawbacks of potentially zipping the finish.
I generally sand the entire body down with 400 grit, 800 grit then 1200 grit wet or dry sand paper. This can take 2-4 hours depending on how bad the finish orange peeled or if there are runs or flaws to clean up.
Make sure all of your sanding marks are out of the finish before moving to the next level. Put a light across the room from where you're sanding to catch the glare to make sure you've got it level, got all the scratches out.
Then it's two trips on the entire body with the rubbing compound. Then one or two trips with the polishing compound. Maybe one or two hours.
Finally, hit it with some swirl remover. This is a half hour at most.
You can toss some auto wax on if you're inclined...it is an automotive finish after all...
Be careful on the edges and corners. Believe it or not, it's real easy to burn down to the wood with a 400 or 800 grit paper if you've gone light on your finish.
And as an aside, there are polishing pads\wheels you can get for a big grinder or bench pedestal polishing unit. I always preferred those, as they stayed fixed and I just moved the body across them. The buffer and wheels\pads will cost you about as much as a new Strat...so I mention it in passing...
Any more questions just fire away.
HTC1
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 16, 2011 19:58:20 GMT -5
i sorta figured no shortcuts was the way to go
i'm sure i'll have more questions as i get further into this (just realizing now what i've gotten myself into...)... i appreciate your help and advice!
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 16, 2011 20:12:19 GMT -5
Lacquer is not hard to work with. Hell, I shot Projects #1 and #2 with it...because it is so cheap and easy to work with. You can still shank it up, but the pre-mixed cans are cheap and simple.
A few things about lacquer, the hotter it is when you spray the faster it sets up....which means you get almost no leveling. And lacquer shrinks. As the solvents evaporate the actual finish is very thin. This is why trying to use it as a filler is such a time consuming process...
Overspray and orange peel are not the end of the world. If your finish is heavy enough you can sand it all out and get a mirror finish in the end.
Before you do the clear you may want to wait a couple of weeks and let most of the solvent leech out. Then hit it with a 400 grit wet or dry. This will give you a nice smooth surface for the clearcoat to hit.
Since you already have the color on, don't feel like you've got to skin coat the clear. Since most of the clear is going to sanded off anyway, feel free to shoot multiple routines with it.
One thing I always did when it was hot outside and I was spraying was to wait about 15 minutes after the last coat and run the bass or guitar into the basement. The cooler more humid conditions allowed it to dry slowly and I didn't get as much orange peel.
Keep me posted and shout out of you need anything.
HTC1
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Post by lpf3 on Jun 16, 2011 20:31:21 GMT -5
Keep in mind that while you may think you have a thick coat of lacquer built up- 6 or 8 coats will actually have about the thickness of the skin you peel off after a sunburn- there ain't much. Are you using Reranch clear also? If you are, cool, but FYI ( If you need more in a pinch....) the Deft clear wood finish that they sell at the home improvement stores is nitro & is compatible with the Reranch nitro. Be sure you don't get the water based stuff...... You should spray at least 2 full cans of clear before you start sanding & buffing, ( lots of folks do 3 or 4) & listen to c1- wait at least 3- 4 weeks before the buffing process. Make it 4.  It's real easy to burn thru while sanding & buffing the edges, especially the little radius corners so don't spend a lot of time there to be safe. I haven't tried these polishing pads but I intend to on my next project. Oh, I'm with c1 on this also- you don't really wanna leave those dings, do ya?  Have fun |
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 16, 2011 21:01:08 GMT -5
... i should've stuck with krylon! l painted the neck and body of my jackson jr. with krylon gloss cherry red and krylon satin finish with remarkably professionally looking results on the neck. The body not so much, it came out horrid looking but that was my fault l forgot to sand the primer smooth before l added the red, and there was a huge gust of wind mid spray that blew debris and pollen into the finish. |
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 16, 2011 21:30:37 GMT -5
The pads that lpf3 linked to look usable. The idea of locking them in I drill press for getting scratches out of plastic looks like a good use for them, too. The trick with any buffer is to use the least amount of pressure as you can and keep the wheel clean. If I was going to use these I'd have two for the rubbing compound, two for the polishing compound and one for the swirl remover. And you'll notice he wasn't ramping up the rpm's either. I've always used the traditional buffers and pads, but this looks like a good substitute on a budget. Make sure you clean them immediately after use. The last thing you want is any of the compound drying in that foam. I just used micro-polishing pads from O'Reilly's. One recommendation I will make is don't go cheap on your compounds. Meguiars makes some of the best stuff out there. It ain't the cheapest, but it's easy to work with and always gives consistent results. You'll soon realize that the paint is the cheapest and easiest part of any refinish. The prep and buffing is what eats up the coins and time. You get done with this one and you'll get a good idea of why professional refinishing is so expensive. Anyone can Krylon a guitar body, but to make is really snap out takes time and effort. For reference, this is the back of Project #1. This has been hand buffed. When I post it in the gallery you'll get to see the rest of it...  I have faith in you, grasshopper. HTC1 |
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Post by newey on Jun 16, 2011 21:45:14 GMT -5
Oh, sure, tease us . . . ;D For the information of our newer members, Cyn has been promising to finish this for several years now. Of course, at some point gainful employment intruded, sad to say. Bottom line, though, is that we're still waiting . . . The late ChrisK had several projects that never seemed to get done; Cyn's probably second on the delayed-project roster. I'm likely third on the list, as I've got a couple still hanging fire for over 2 years now! |
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 16, 2011 22:11:56 GMT -5
wow you guys make me seem productive!
half-finished jcm 800 clone turret board sitting around for six months, od pedal on the breadboard for two, these two partscasters, and trouble-shooting my jazzmaster
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Post by lpf3 on Jun 16, 2011 22:15:02 GMT -5
Oh, sure, tease us . . . ;D For the information of our newer members, Cyn has been promising to finish this for several years now. Of course, at some point gainful employment intruded, sad to say. Bottom line, though, is that we're still waiting . . . The late ChrisK had several projects that never seemed to get done; Cyn's probably second on the delayed-project roster. I'm likely third on the list, as I've got a couple still hanging fire for over 2 years now! I've heard a few rumblings about this guitar as well; It seems ol' c1 has taken the position that what happens in Wisconsin stays in Wisconsin...... ;D Hint, hint...... -lpf3 |
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 16, 2011 22:24:18 GMT -5
Guilty as charged, counselor...just under three years.
Actually it was a combination of gainful employment and not so gainful unemployment... For two years I was working in Chicago, but the guitar was in WI...zip code EIEIO... The winters up here are not conducive to painting, and spraying lacquer in the house just ain't a good idea...that whole basement...furnace..pilot light thing...of course, in hindsight...
The guitar is finished, the setup complete and I need to get a few more pictures and kludge together some sound samples.
Be happy I don't make you wait until I know how to play the damn thing...
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 16, 2011 23:17:41 GMT -5
Hell i've been working on the ol' jackson since 2003 the only reasons its still setting in pieces is one i've got too much to do and to little to do it with. the other is when l very first started that project l was completely inexperienced and i'll have to redo a few things. Luckily l got the neck hb slot right way back when using a $16 b&d dremel and a hammer and chisel. lt started out with a chinese khaler knock off which in its cheapness broke while playing one day. that cavity was blocked up but...
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 16, 2011 23:24:06 GMT -5
But l never finished sanding it and its not flush with the top yet. All it needs is a good sanding a better than attemt #1 finish, electronics and hardware. Luckily l was introduced to both www.guitarfetish.com and www.1728.org through you guys, l estimate its completion sometime around next summer funds permitting that is!!! |
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 17, 2011 1:11:12 GMT -5
well if you notice in the control cavity where it looks like someone took a bite of it... that's because this is the first guitar i ever worked on (and at the time, the only one i had besides my guild and bass) and i needed to fit the push-pull pot in there so i could bring it to practice the next day. with no tools but a screwdriver and small hammer, i went to town....
it's been a journey, during which i've come to hate super overwound pickups, so i'm psyched to get hot but not muddy pickups in it
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 17, 2011 8:15:40 GMT -5
Man...you guys are what used to keep me in business back in the day...
The best one I remember was the genius that tried to make room for a rotary switch in a Strat clone with an acetylene torch. I believe there was some mind altering substance involved, but his idea was to burn the wood to make it easier to remove with a screw driver. Well, somewhere between genius and the Hindenburg the inevitable occurs.
From what he told me he was pulling the goggles back off his face to view his handiwork when he lost track of where the torch was...which was still hot...and to his dismay noticed it gleefully burning away at the finish, pickguard and all the associated wiring... What the fire didn't destroy the sudden blast from the fire extinguisher finished... It's called a rapid thermal reaction when something very cold contacts something very hot...cracks and crazes the finish all to Hell...
I told him it was probably going to cost more then the guitar was worth to fix it, but he comes back with, "No man...this is my baby...I love this guitar..." I suddenly had visions of cigarette burns all over his girlfriend...
This guitar affectionately became known as the Napalm Strat...and it did cost him more to put right then buying a new one...
It really is easy to find information on the Internet these days on what the best methods are for doing small repairs and mods. In the end it's safer and yields better results. Like the old saying goes, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail"
Glad you guys still have all your fingers...
HTC1
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 20, 2011 9:36:42 GMT -5
started clear coating!  |
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Post by thetragichero on Jul 17, 2011 12:03:36 GMT -5
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand here she is!  my hand is KILLING ME from all the polishing have before and after pictures along with some pictures of other recent projects: here |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 17, 2011 12:34:31 GMT -5
I already +1'd you on the other posting, but I just want to say again how sweet that seafoam green turned out.
And yes, Virginia, to get a clean mirror smooth finish takes a lot of sanding and polishing.
But the end result more then justifies the effort. Your's looks to be a 1st class job.
Very classy looking axe there, TH.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by newey on Jul 17, 2011 19:20:11 GMT -5
Yeah, the Seafoam Green is right in my wheelhouse, too! +1!
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It's real easy to burn thru while sanding & buffing the edges, especially the little radius corners so don't spend a lot of time there to be safe. 
