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Post by goldenwave77 on Jun 24, 2011 20:19:16 GMT -5
Been trying to implement 7-way strat, setup using 3 single pu's and a push/pull that replaces normal volume to get "bridge on"
Also trying to get shielding done since new pu's were unacceptably loud. Did foil lining, soldered tremolo bar ground wire to lug embedded in control cavity. Also did "star grounding" with "o ring soldering terminal" that is destination for all gnd wires other than trem wire. The meter tells me gnd-ing is good--i.e. get the "numbers jumping around" when any foil point, or trem, etc., strings, tuning pegs, etc, is tested. Pu' screw poles coming thru scratchplate are isolated--get zero reading between them and any foil pt.
Found EenyBear's Donkey-Mod II diagram on original site to be almost spot on but have following questions, which I'm address-ing to forum per Eeny Bear's suggestions. 1) He says "shielding in signal wire is connected to gnd lug on jack only. Trim and do not connect at vol. pot" in his note. In other words-- the diagram shows gnd coming off jack input, then to vol. push pull's rt.-hand tab-- THEN to star gnd terminus, but this gnd can simply come directly from jack plug to to star gnd, and disregard the vol. pot entirely?! I did this, and meter continuity test shows "jumping numbers" when connecting input jack sleeve (gnd) to any other gnd-ed pt., so I'm assuming this works. Please confirm. (Regular hot from jack input goes to vol. push/pull middle tab--as is usual)
2) Diagram shows Bridge tone pot gnd coming FROM that pot's middle tab then going to star gnd. Shouldn't this come off one of the side tabs instead?! Conversely, shouldn't the live wire coming from the 5-way switch to this Bridge tone pot go to the middle tab, and not the rt.-hand tab as shown. (In other words, I think they may be swapped in the diagram as far as the pot connection pts.?!) Please confirm.
3) At moment, just want to get basic 7-way switch scheme going, so I'd like to disregard (i) (01 uF cap. shown coming off bridge tone), as well as (ii) 150K ohm resistor bridging middle and side tab of vol. push/pull--ie. on the lower cylindrical part that looks like a regular vol. pot, and (iii) .001 uF cap. which also bridges those same 2 connection pts. I'm assuming these just "disappear"from the wiring scheme, at least until I put them back later, perhaps. Please confirm. The real question is this, diagram shows a wire coming off 5-way switch pole---opposite (and nearest) the bridge pu connection post on the other side of the "wafer"--which goes to left tab on vol. pot, then going to "middle left" connection on the "apt.-house" looking part of the push/pull that sits on top of the cylindrical part of the vol. pot. I"m assuming this just goes directly to the "apt. house" same location from the 5-way switch, thereby bypassing the tab on the bottom of the push/pull.
Sorry to be so verbose--but I'm trying to be precise. If I can figure out how to draw those neat-o diagrams, i'll post one w/ due acknowlegement of course when done, and this all tests out. A digital pic would not be helpful as I've used Belden shielded single wire throughout and it just looks like black earthworms copulating.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 24, 2011 21:00:03 GMT -5
Hey!
I'm sure we can shed some light on these questions, but a link would help. I don't exactly know the GuitarNuts site like the back of my hand, and a quick skim didn't find me the scheme from which you're working.
I can answer #2 right now, though: Doesn't matter. As long as you're only using the wiper and one outside lug, and the pot works in the direction you expect (more treble in the clockwise direction on a right-handed guitar) then it's cool.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 24, 2011 21:33:30 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Jun 24, 2011 21:40:12 GMT -5
goldenwave77-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
Ashcatlt has #2, I'll take a stab at Question #1:
This is correct, but let's clarify what was meant there. He is talking about the use of a 2-conductor-plus-shield cable to wire between the output jack and the control cavity. The jack tip connection gets wired to one of the conductors, and to the V pot wiper at the other end. The jack sleeve connection should go to the star grounding point. The shield is wired to the jack sleeve, but the opposite end is not wired. This is a shield; just like your cavity shielding is grounded at the one end but connected to nothing else.
Use of the shielded cable to make the short run is recommended by the original Guitar Nuts shielding instructions. It is certainly a good practice to do so, but may not make much difference in noise- but it won't hurt, and might make a difference in certain settings.
Note that we were talking of the shield just now; now we are switching gears, so to speak, and talking about the ground connection from to the output jack.
Since all the other grounds which meet at the star grounding point need to get grounded to the output, the output jack gets wired straight to the star grounding point. Again, this is more of a "best practices " issue; it would work if wired to the V pot first, but that's not exactly "star grounding".
Now, the third lug on the volume pot does need to be grounded, however that happens. You cannot "disregard it entirely". So long as you're star grounding, might as well be true to the idea and run from the Vol pot to the star grounding point (and, from there to the outjack, via the first wire you installed.)
As to question #3, we'll need a link to the diagram, as Ash noted. The original G-nuts site was extensively hacked, resulting in the formation of this Board, and making it difficult to access things over there. I can tell you that the resistor and cap wired across the volume pot, from wiper to the CW lug, is a "treble bleed circuit". These components help to "save the treble" as the volume is reduced, helping to keep your volume control just controlling the dBs, instead of sounding bassier and bassier as you roll it down.
These are completely optional- a good idea, IMHO, but not necessary. They can be left out if you wish.
The cap coming off the bridge tone pot is, presumably, the tone capacitor for that pot. If you remove that your tone control won't function properly.
The balance of #3 will have to await the diagram.
EDIT: And, there it is, courtesy of Cynical1!
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Post by newey on Jun 24, 2011 22:03:14 GMT -5
The provision of the diagram now allows a complete answer to #3:
This is the "hot output" connection. It is coming from one of the 2 common poles of the 5-way switch, and the 2 commons are wired together by the wire that sort of "wraps around" the switch to the other side, where the pickup hot wires are connected.
From the Vol pot left lug, the signal goes through the resistance of the pot, and out via the center "wiper" connection to the output jack.
Not sure exactly what you are referring to. If you mean the little tab on the very bottom of the P/P, that's likely to be for grounding the frame of the switch. Probably not necessary to wire that up here.
The P/P center lug (diagram shows the left-hand side of the switch being used, but you can use either side) is wired to the Volume pot "hot input" as shown. The P/P lower left lug is wired to the bridge pickup at the 5-way. These are the only 2 connections made to the P/P pot.
Hope that is of assistance to you!
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Post by goldenwave77 on Jun 26, 2011 18:28:03 GMT -5
Just want to thank everyone who responded to my post. I think I have got the wiring correctly installed--all switches do what they are supposed to do. Still having buzzing problem. Checked cavity foil for any gaps--closed them w/ more foil--buzzing got louder. Then thought--probably controls coming into contact with foil in cavity--covered up foil with electrical tape which in an earlier phase, had worked to get the switches working. Still buzzing like crazy. Don't think hot/gnd to jack input is reversed---hot coming off volume pot goes to "inner jack post" w/ the other one--gnd that is embedded in yellowish, insulating material having wire that goes off to star gnd. Putting meter on gnd terminal and any other pt. in "gnd circuit" (metal bridge, foil, strings, etc) yields "jumping numbers" so I think continuity is good. All wires in entire setup use "shielded single strand wire", ie. StewMac's copper wire which has clear plastic sleeve--then silver stranded (Al ?) wire, then black rubber coating. Also, BTW, noise increases when hand contacts strings. Thoughts on getting "beast quieted": 1. Put foil on inside edge of back cover plate---does this need to be grounded, say to trem claw? 2. Might have carelessly soldered the AL wire and inner Copper wire together---could that be the problem?! Also, when my telecaster is plugged into the same 2 amps in the 2 different locations, that instrument is very, very quiet....really have to listen carefully to notice anything, if at all, and these are regular single coils in that guitar. (Vintagevibeguitar pickups by Pete Biltoft---highly, highly recommended BTW) Any thoughts on slaying this beast will be sincerely appreciated.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 26, 2011 18:57:11 GMT -5
Jumping numbers sounds like a malfunction. You should get a reading of 0 or very close to it for continuity.
If the buzz gets louder when you touch the strings it usually means the jack wires are reversed. Try swapping them.
Theres nothing in the trek cavity that needs to be shielded.
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Post by goldenwave77 on Jul 7, 2011 19:24:41 GMT -5
Further problems.... Still godawful hum. No sound at all when push/pull is "in". Do get sound from all 5 positions when push/pull is "out" but same hum, which in both cases increases when strings are touched. Wiring is as follows. Could someone take a look at this and see if I've managed to screw it up?! Also, I'm confused about whether star-gnd junction points should be in contact with foil-covered parts of cavity and/or scratchplate. Eeny Bear's post says it needs to be in contact but para. 21 of original "Shielding the Beast" seems to say (at least to me) that complete isolation is needed. (The back of the scratchplate and elec. connections have been pretty well insulated w/ elec.tape so I don't think I'm shorting out any signal connections to the gnd circuit. Also, I insulated the solder pt. "o" ring that is slipped onto the middle tone pot. stem as I thought that was merely a mechanical, but not electrical connection pt. From there an insulated wire runs to another "o" ring that is the star-ground junction, and all of those connections are insulated from the back of the scratchplate foil. ) I guess I'm not understanding this well---am I literally missing a connection with the stargnd circuit?! Also, as i mentioned in previous post, trem gnd wire is soldered to body cavity foil. I think my gnd circuit does show continuity since the meter shows "jumping numbers" which after a few sec. stabilize at zero. Finally, all of the elec. connections use Stew Mac's shielded copper wire--ie. Cu strands, then plastic sleeve, then alum. sheathing surrounded by black vinyl all-around. Once again, thanks in advance. This ordeal is making me appreciate my teles.
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Post by goldenwave77 on Jul 7, 2011 19:28:33 GMT -5
Darn it...the img file (diagram) that I thought should have been copied from PhotoBucket is not appearing. What is the procedure to do this. (On the "review your post" screen, it showed img twice which I inserted using the "insert image" command, as well as the specific img file from PhotoBucket... sorry to be so techno-inept....hard to believe I used to write my own programs !
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Post by newey on Jul 7, 2011 19:51:15 GMT -5
goldenwave77-
I fixed your image problem, you had a set of extraneous img tags in there. When you cut and paste from photobucket, the img tags are already there, you don't need to click on the img icon here.
You should not be insulating the ring connector that attaches to the shaft of the tone pot. That ring is designed to contact (by compression from the pot's hex nut) both the pot frame as well as the pickguard shielding.
I don't know if that's going to solve your problem or not, but it may be rendering your shielding ineffective. But try it and see, While you are in there, you might also try regrounding all the pot shells together, that can sometimes help cure grounding problems (yes, that creates a ground loop, but don't worry about it).
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Post by JohnH on Jul 7, 2011 20:00:52 GMT -5
The no sound when pushed in is easily fixed. You need a wire from the left volume pot lug to 4/5 on the five way switch. This wire will be the main output from switch to pot. cheers John
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2011 23:17:00 GMT -5
Plug one end of a (known good) cable into the jack and then check for continuity between the sleeve on the other end and the lugs on the jack. One will show your "jumping numbers" and settle to something close to 0. That's where all the grounds want to go. I'm still willing to bet they're currently connected to the other.
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Post by goldenwave77 on Jul 8, 2011 9:42:27 GMT -5
Reply to john h and newey--more shielding adventures Response to newey and john h Thanks to newey for helping me get the diagram up and visible. The "O" solder ring terminal is now unwrapped, and is in connection with the foil plate on the scratchplate as it sits under the middle tone control pot. stem. Added a drop in or two of solder between the "o" ring terminal and the foil on the scratchplate for good connection. A threaded nut sits on top of that, and then another threaded nut (and washer) on the top of the scratchplate. John h, you're right : I left off one connecting wire --so I've now added a wire --bottom left tab of push/pull to #5 post on 5-way. (As you point out, #5 is connected to #4, which I had already, so I'm thinking this is what you mean when you say connect the vol. pot to #4 and #5.) This is what is shown in the Eeny Bear diagram so I'm assuming this is correct. Please confirm. Same problems as before--still no sound when push/pull is "in"--but the noise is louder to me...almost like its shorting out. I'll go check that. One other pt.--tone controls don't seem to do anything. I'll post revised diagram which shows John h's correction, and also check on ashcatlt's suggestion on jack wiring.
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Post by goldenwave77 on Jul 11, 2011 16:22:32 GMT -5
Almost done !--corrections to previous diagram Good news: Have to hand it to Ashcatlt--he was right when he said I should check the input (output) jack using the "known good cable" method mentioned in his previous post. Previously, I'd followed someone's advice on YouTube--"the inner tab will be the hot tab". Well, t'aint so--the meter proved it, and when I switched it, I now have a very quiet Strat, thanks to Ashcatlt, and the other good folks here. Please note that John H's previous comment is also correct--i.e. need to add wire from lower left, vol. pot tab. to #5 tab, which is already connected by a jumper from #4 tab. Having scanner troubles uplifting my corrected diagram but will do so when I figure it out. The latest diagram is therefore INCOMPLETE as it should show the connection noted by John H. above. Bad News: Still not getting any output when push/pull is in "out" position. (It is quiet though, not like before). Also, even in the push/pull "in" position when all 5 sounds are there, it appears that the 2 tone controls are not working at all. So...I'm thinking: 1) one of the connections between the regular vol. pot, and the pole switch part (the part that looks like an "apt. house") sitting on top of the normal vol. cylindrical pot. has got to be bad.--which one A). wire from #1 tab of 5-way to lower left of "apt. house": #1 tab is bridge pu which works--therefore this is OK B). wire from lower left vol. tab. to middle left of "apt. house", OR C) wire from lower left vol. tab to # 5 tab of 5-way switch Not sure if the problem is B) or C) above, or something else. Any insight on this would be most appreciated. 2) The 2 tone pots work, as I understand it, by using the 2 capacitors which with its respective pot. switch "cuts down" on treble tone as the signal goes through the pot. before going to gnd. But gnd seems to be OK, as the hum is gone, at least when the push/pull is down. Is the problem with the capacitors themselves?! They are brand new, and I was pretty careful about using the long wire leads attached to them to wrap around my elec. wire before soldering them, quickly, into place, and wrapping the whole thing w/ elec. tape. This seems unlikely. Again, I know I'm wordy, but I'm trying to be clear...and some other less electronically knowledgable members might benefit from my troubles (and my attempts to puzzle through them). I do have an inexpensive Radio Shack "credit card" multimeter. I used the ohm-meter part of it to check the pu's themselves before installing them, checking my gnd connections with my shielding efforts, and correcting the input jack per Ashcatlt's instructions. Not quite sure how to use the other functions to troubleshoot/correct any of the above. So...any thoughts, comments, insights, troubleshooting suggestions would be most appreciated. Thank you in advance.
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Post by newey on Jul 11, 2011 17:08:07 GMT -5
Well, that's not quite it. But the first question I would ask here is: What are the values of the capacitors, and how sure are you that you have those values in there? It is easy to use a wrong cap (and the error is usually a factor of 10), and that might explain the lack of actual tone control. So double check that first.
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Post by goldenwave77 on Jul 11, 2011 18:13:26 GMT -5
Will doublecheck capacitor values. Maybe the RadioShack bubble-pak had the wrong ones in there.
Also, please note that push/pull is working in the "out" position --but not the "in" position--which is the reverse of what I stated above. Eeny's diagram states that this is the "off" bridge for the "bridge on" mod.--or in other words, I'm getting regular strat sounds for positions 1-5, but NOT the additional "bridge on" sounds for positions 4 and 5.
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