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Post by asmith on Jan 10, 2012 9:07:28 GMT -5
Could we not wire that blend module "backwards?" The outputs are buffered after all. I would have thought that removes the RC-filter problem. Or perhaps ChrisK's S/P Blend pot layout could be applied here. |
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Post by 4real on Jan 10, 2012 15:17:36 GMT -5
Thanks Gumbo, $13 shipping so will have to wait till some money comes in...when these strings first came in, could have been the older 'polyweb' strings, I seemed to shred them after a while (well before dead) with bits of coating hanging off the strings so been wary ever since. The piezo can accentuate string squeak though so looking for a solution there. Do these coated strings help with this?
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Post by 4real on Jan 10, 2012 15:53:08 GMT -5
Could we not wire that blend module "backwards?" The outputs are buffered after all. I would have thought that removes the RC-filter problem. Or perhaps ChrisK's S/P Blend pot layout could be applied here. I'm a little over my head with these active electronics, but I would think there is some potential in using them. They seem to be a superior quality of pot and feel nice, the indent a bonus. If one wanted to put the lower pot later in the chain, then I'd think the reverse of john's last scheme might be the go...as the stew-mac suggests also...go to the blend from the pickups and then on to the dual gang volumes and out with a lower impedance. Might not be able to do the stereo trick though and of course, it would require a virtual total rebuild/re-wire so not about to do it on a whim. |
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Post by gumbo on Jan 11, 2012 4:33:01 GMT -5
Hmm... Yeah, I found out that you can get up to nine sets of strings over for a total of $13 shipping.... ....so, guess what I do.....  ...I do a combined purchase with other guys in the band  |
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Post by 4real on Jan 12, 2012 7:24:17 GMT -5
Ok...finally... I got time to reload reaper and upgrade...things were not too happy there, but seems ok now...so a couple of short MP3's to demo the blend and 'scratch in the volume control in this one... soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11359058I'm playing an open C chord (sounds pretty well in tune doesn't it). With each strum I am moving the blend control from Mag to Piezo in blend and in stereo plus the volume control 'scratch' then a short demo of the effectiveness of the trilogy. The piezo picks up a bit of the lever noise there. I believe I went from standard to open D then open G, DADGAD and back to standard after a bit of a demo of the sound of the strings changing pitch. The last chord (showing that it does return in tune) is a C and I did that B-bender trick by simply pushing down on the string behind the bridge...making a 'sus' chord out of the C. Hope that helps.... The following is a quick demo of a couple of tunes, the first a little 'exercise piece' to get the hang of moving bass lines and chord stuff in a more 'funky' way perhaps. The last chord is the famous James Bond chord...LOL. soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11359057At the end a bit of an easter egg for john, little rough but a version that includes a bass line and riff as per discussed earlier with a basic rhythm part one could sing against and yet still add in some bass movement or perhaps answering riffs. The backing vocal line 'this world is only gonna break your heart' is imitated with an E-Esus kind of move. Hopefully this might make more sense than my 'ASCII' tab off the top of my head. Clearly I have a long way to go once I changed my style so radically, especially dropping the plectrum. I did used to play this song in a similar way with the pick though, a little hybrid picking perhaps, but it is possible even in this kind of bass and chord kind of thing. ... So, the first clip is dead dry, direct into the computer interface with no compression or reverb or anything. The second one given some room with some reverb, but nothing fancy. As an electric guitar, it does benefit from an amp to colour things, but this gives a bit of an idea of the sound of the thing all the same. ... I did get a nasty shock this morning...the whole guitar started squealing and such...turns out to be a flat battery, but a really, really bad sound and ear splitting. Very unexpected...will have to watch that. It does seem to be eating batteries...perhaps the passive thing was not a bad idea after all, shame I took it out!...hmmm. ... Otherwise, trilogy is working, guitar seems to play well in tune without fancy nuts...the action is good now, a few little tweaks here and there are needed. The electronics...well...cant say I am satisfied but obviously it works. The clips don't quite do it justice, it is an unusual sound in a few ways, a real hybrid between acoustic and electric in feel as well as sound. The arch top gives things a kind of 'poky' sound for want to a better word. Hard to explain but very different attack and sustain from a solid-body or a flat top acoustic. The stereo thing though does work and I will try exploring the recorded sound a bit more from this quick demo as it could be advantageous to do more close listening through headphones and refining that sound, perhaps try some different effects and such. So hard to find a nice quiet clean amp sim though. I dare say there are a few things about that might warm the sound up a little, a bit of reverb and compression might give things a more realistic sound like I am getting from the amp...or perhaps use a direct box. ... ok, well enjoy...let me know if that 'scratching pot' sound gives any clues... |
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Post by JohnH on Jan 12, 2012 14:35:28 GMT -5
Pete - thanks for those. the guitar is sounding very nice and I love the tunes, especially the Wicked.
I had a quick go of bringing them into Audacity and its quite revealing, you can see the volumes changing as you blend.
Off to work now but there' ll be much to learn from these later.
cheers
John
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Post by JohnH on Jan 13, 2012 17:20:50 GMT -5
Heres a few observations from those tests:
On the first group of blend strums, assuming it starts with mag and pans to piezo, the piezo end is about -5db lower than the mag end. But in the mid blend, it is about -7db lower. If the blender was perfectly configured, you would expect the middle to be about 4db higher than it is. The blend circuit, being followed passively by the volume pots and buffers, explains about 1.2db of this dip. Unless there is something else, I think the rest of the difference is because the two signals are not completely the same (pretty pointless blending them if they were!), so when you take an average blend of both, (which is how this blender works) its not exactly the same volume, but a bit less again. Ie the peaks are not adding up perfectly but slightly missing each other.
It is interesting to then listen to the following stereo pan. The strength of the sound is much more consistent as it tracks across from right to left. That is because of the 39k resistors on the blend pot. These only work in stereo mode (cant use them in the mono mode as is), so at the mid setting, each is providing 0.7x the signal instead of 0.5x as in mono blend mode. If you split the stereo track and then listen to both as centred mono tracks together, then you have a mono blend happening, this time with much more consistent volume as it is panned.
To achieve that same result electrically, there could be a mono blend mode based on joining together the two stereo signals, with some resistors. Simple, but the reason I didn’t suggest it before is that it would also halve the signal strength. But in principle, there would be a way of having such compensated blend and stereo modes, with the output buffers changed to a design with x2 gain. Food for thought.
The crackle is small but annoying I am sure. I reckon a cap on the piezo might help but Im not certain.
On the battery eating - any chance of measuring current draw when on (and maybe off!)?. Need to put the meter between battery and battery clip so current flows through meter.
John
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Post by 4real on Jan 13, 2012 17:51:40 GMT -5
Thanks John GF coming over, so perhaps later in the week we can look into the current draw. The 'crackle' is a bit odd, sometimes it is in the blend a bit more, there is a touch of it in there, but the volume is a lot worse loud and through the amp. It is not that one uses such a control a lot, though it is good to be able to turn the guitar off some times. It does kind of make the volume control superfluous as being 'quiet' is of significant value and this isn't. The blend works pretty well. I think one 'blend' was with the series and the other the parallel HB...there might be a later one with the dark switch...this makes the blend a rather effective 'tone control' The balance is pretty good really in both modes of operation, anything will be a compromise I imagine. In stereo one is using two channels so the balance can be better achieved. If the volume is not right on one side of course, one could simply blend a little to one side. The powr thing, well I will try a much better battery next time perhaps, these are cheap domestic ones, and I am putting in a bit of playing time on the guitar...but it does go through them and the noise when the battery is flat is phenomenally bad...so have to watch that. The piezo has a low bat light, but I've not seen it light up for that reason, so go figure! I certainly would not want to halve the signal strength...hmmm...I am looking at some preamp/effect options and this would give say the piezo a bit of a boost, or in fact the whole guitar. Putting it through he recorder was an interesting exercise and did well there...not yet found a decent 'amp sim' for a clean sound but while not wanting to sound too 'fake' some kind of effects could give the guitar a little 'extra' studio sheen...reverb, light compression... not sure if people have much experience with these kinds of things, am considering a second hand zoom 504II for instance, but not been too keen on some of their other sounds there and there is a financial crisis after all. ... Been finding some great resources on line musically...others might be interested in a few of these things so let me know... |
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Post by 4real on Jan 13, 2012 18:53:57 GMT -5
I'd not heard of 'Steven King' guitar player till this morning...astounding..and just to prove that there is nothing new under the sun, he has a pickup for his two low strings running into an ocatve pedal...proving it is not such a silly idea at all....must get on to this side of the project, eventually...
To show how astonishing he is, Steely Dan is always a 'show off staple...here's Peg as well as 'king of the world' on the end...all parts, one guitar, live...
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Post by 4real on Jan 17, 2012 6:16:46 GMT -5
A few stray parts arrived...  A roller tree, the original single one was pretty high up and the original place suited well with just a touch of pressure. Should be fine to keep the high E from ever popping off and a little extra pressure on the nut.   Some strap locks too from the same supplier...I suspect $10 all up with a spare roller. These strap locks are similar to the schaller ones I have on some of my other guitars but would appear to be an even better quality and very cheap on eBay. Ordered a few sets of nanoweb string and will give them a go. I see they do make 'half round' string in the right gauge and that will be of interest perhaps some time in the future. I'm a little concerned that I might 'shred' the coating with the amount of playing I tend to do. I've been studying a bit of 'adrian legg' who has been of influence also and some interesting attitudes towards playing acoustic electric and use of effects and tunings...a lot of his pieces are not to difficult and will make good exercises at least. His thoughts on acoustic playing is in part that once you plug an acoustic in, even mic-ing a guitar, it is much like an electric and as such one should use that as an advantage and in the set-up and even type of guitar and I tend to agree. ... Oh yeah...been experimenting with a few effects, not quite got it out of normal guitar effects processors, will have to keep trying I think...and...visited a local 'more elderly' lady/neighbour especially with teh heat (I've got Air con, she doesn't so might as well share) and would you believe, she works in an op-shop and had a spare guitar case she saved from being thrown out...bit of a wash, but it fits the guitar perfectly...very nice for free...must be the good karma points! |
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Post by 4real on Jan 19, 2012 6:45:21 GMT -5
New strings arrived...thanks gumbo...will give them a go when these are a little more worn I think. Still am thinking that the half rounds are an interesting proposition to the nanowebs. The ones I'd tried I think were polywebs and was not impressed when they started shredding and did not experience the longevity advertised because it is not corrosion that does my string in but playing the things to death, lots of bending and wear from the frets as much as anything...but with this style, string squeak does get a bit distracting to say the least. ... Also arrived in the post today was an old Zoom 504II...  www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/504ii/ebay for $50 posted and perfect condition. It is quite a small device and in typical zoom products lacks a lot of fine control and teh presets are cheesy...so this evening is exploring changing everything to suit the guitar and making things more subtle from something that is already pretty subtle. However, it is quite a good device in a few ways. It is a step towards what I suspect I will need which is a pedal board of some type, perhaps even carrying phantom power to the guitar itself one day. ... I'm wiping off the presets as we speak and trying to work out an 'order' and choice of practical sounds that suit. I'm starting with a basic sound and gradually 'evolving' this so as to step through variations. So, get a basic good sound is not hard, program one achieves this and so it is easy to mod this to suit, save it, then copy that over to the next setting and mod that a little more. Mainly getting the sound to be fairly dry and adding reverb or a spot of delay, perhaps a little compression or a warm sound or articulation...so subtle things. ... The device offers quite a good chromatic tuner in bypass mode and a preamp at least to make the signal a little hotter. There is also noise reduction, although the guitar is pretty quiet, silent in magnetic mode, there is a little hiss and effects add to this often. The purpose of this thing is that it will make a piezo (or even an electric guitar) sound more like a natural acoustic. The chain of effects options are... Type => Limiter/edge => Low body => High top => Air => Effect => Delay/reverb => de-amp => feedback suppressor. type is the type of acoustic...so things like 'flat', natural, mild, rhtym, bright and on the electric guitar simulator side, thru (no acoustic effect), normal, jumbo, piezo, and gut (nylon). The limiter is a great feature, so stops any wildly loud notes but not compressing everything...very subtle but will be an aid if used subtly for my playing. The low and high are basic EQ's really. The 'Air' is to simulate mic-ing an acoustic guitar, a bit like a reverb setting and higher values simulate a mic further from teh instrument and does sound pretty good. All these take off the 'piezo' quack pretty effectively (though on this guitar the mag pickup itself calms a lot fo this down). The effects are generally subtle but the presets in typical style over do things. You can only choose one from this section as well... So on acoustics the obvious is chorus... rich chorus, light chorus, 12 string (on higher setting you really do get a kind of octave string effect), doubling, touch (compressor) emphasiser (harmonic enhancer, mild distortion and trebel boost kind of thing), dry mix (allows some of the original guitar sound to go around the initial chain of type, air, etc, and for some reason 'wha'...it is a mild one supposedly designed for acoustics...hmmm. The next section is a basic digital reverb section...small room, large room, delay and reverb + delay. The delay is very mild, up to 370ms but decays fast and without the ability to adjust anything but the amount of this. Similar the two reverbs. They do sound ok, a little cold, but it is useful to be able to switch through these kinds of effects and reverb can effect the overall sound. I suspect I will still be using a touch of amp reverb to take the coldness off these settings. The 'de-amp' attenuates frequency bands that can sound harsh through a normal guitar amp. Bright combo, combo and stack types. This actually does work quite well at this. I don't think the guitar has a feedback problem at all, surprisingly, but you can set this to auto detect frequencies and cut them if one wanted to. ... The end result is that it does offer quite a bit of 'polish' to the sound overall and a greater tonal variety. Everything needs to be toned down from the presets to suit this guitar and map and because all manufacturers overdo what such devices can do. I can't say that the 'gut' string guitar model really sounds like a nylon, but it is quite a good sound in that vein. The twelve string also makes a nice sound in it's own way, a little chorusy but is adding some highs in there. ... Back in the 80's I was guilty of using the chorus a bit, we all were I suspect, generally they can sound a bit 'seasick' but I dare say there will be places where a subtle touch will be good. ... An interesting aspect of this guitar is that in stereo, I can have this on the piezo side and run the mag into my fender amp or other effects perhaps and so one can use the 'blend/pan control' as an onboard effects 'mixer' to change the sound within a song quite effectively. The 'hex' thing too would likely go through a pitch shifter of it's own and the difference in things like reverb should effectively create some quite nice separation and the balance of this signal also controlled on the guitar itself. Part o f the idea is to give a layered sound with some sounds sitting back in terms of reverb and such and others more forward and this should be a great too for this kind of thing. I have a zoom 505II and a korg AXG1, the former being much better, but these processors have their limitations of course. I really don't want to sound too 'effected' or anything but used subtly they can really make a good sound better if used sparingly and for making an piezo sound more acoustic this device can do that job, even make an electric sound like an acoustic and perhaps something to consider instead of a piezo system in fact (the 505 also offers this effect). ... Any suggestions on how people order effects in such processors or other tips, all welcome as always...ideas for a pedal board and the like. |
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Post by JohnH on Jan 19, 2012 14:33:52 GMT -5
I think Zoom do a good job with acoustic sounds. I havent tried your one, or other of their sepecific units for acoustic, but I had a Zoom G2 and upgraded it to a G2nu which is a current model. I mainly use it for rehearsing, where I cant carry amps on the train and have to go into a PA.
I find it has the best acoustic sim of other processors Ive heard, and it does help the piezo strat sound more like a real one, with a bit of chorus and 'verb. A bit of slightly de-tuned delay makes a 12 string effect. Adjusting the knobs to bring forth more detail, I can even get an acoustic sound from the les Paul.
However, my reference for a great plugged in acoustic tone is my Maton 325, and frustratingly, nothing I can contrive from boxes and wires even comes close to that!
John
BTW I also like nanowebs - they seem to last until they break, which doesnt happen often. Ive not had any shedding of the coating. On one electric played occasionally, they laste 5 years!
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Post by 4real on Jan 19, 2012 19:07:06 GMT -5
Thanks john, I looked at the newer model, they are cheap. They are much the same I suspect but improved by processing power and sampling I am sure.
It is at least a headphone amp so I can take the guitar out to some remote places with me perhaps...
They do add that 'sheen' to things but with solo guitar, a lot of 'effects' don't work so well, and the presets are kind of unusable and over blown.
It's kind of different in a band contest, some so these sounds like the 12 string and choruses can work well with other instruments, but on their own can sound a bit...well...80's or perhaps just drifting in and out of tune. It could be useful in the stereo mode where you get a bit more of the direct sound out of a different amp perhaps and this is a background 'pad' as much as anything. Generally I suspect that I will want to be running in 'mono' most of the time.
The preamp, tuner and limiter are worth it, the "air" thing does help as does the 'de-amp' and a touch of reverb is a good ting if using an amp without it (like my portable 15 watter). I'm in too minds about effects though, can get over blown of course and it is easy to get a bit of a synthetic processed sound and not hear the actual instrument which kind of detracts from things a bit.
It is not going to sound like a maton, but this guitar really does have acoustic qualities and sounds good on it's own. The ideal rig I suspect would be some kind of portable PA and mixer in the end. But. as soon as you plug an acoustic in, it is no longer reallly an 'acoustic' even guys alike Tommy Emanuel run a midiverb and a whole heap of pickups and mics to create that acoustic sound and control things live. Recording I believe he uses 5 mics and not your cheap ones either, so a little bit of 'cheating' is required even with a great maton.
...
Before embarking on this project, I was seriously considering going the acoustic route or perhaps something like an ibanez arch top..but really, this thing can do a lot more than that and probably on a par for the money I could afford. It's a unique and good looking guitar and many times cheaper than what would be required I know.
If I can justify and refine it a little more, I can see myself making an improved version or duplicate with a nicer neck but my playing would need to improve a lot more LOL ... time in, results out as always.
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Post by 4real on Mar 5, 2012 0:59:08 GMT -5
Just an update on this project...
Still getting a bad scratching from both the volume and blend controls in use, as in only when they are turned...this of course makes them almost 'ornamental' in performance and looking for solutions. Sounds great...however, functionality there is definitely lacking, you'd never 'buy' a guitar or amp with such a fault ater all, making one is even more of an investment...
...
Otherwise, got an old Midiverb III from eBay a while ago for about $70 and an excellent reverb/chorus/delay/eq device for this kind of thing...99 presets most of which are useful subtle variations on those themes and 100 program slots. I have worked out how to insert it in the kind of (un-switched) effects loop of my HRD fender and adjusted the in and out puts of the verb to get the least noise and excellent for producing far more of a 'room' sound which is important...so a win there. The Zoom, will make a cheap 'portable' rig with the battery powered 15 watter for a similar kind of sound.
...
Have been concentrating a bit more on playing, there is one annoying little 'buzz' (kind of, just a touch different 'tone') on the b string 9th fret g#...no where else...wondered if people had suggestions. The neck is rather old and a little worn down on the frets above the 12th and perhaps I will need to take the higher end frets down a bit. Always wary about all these kinds of things and lacking some tools and experience with fretting, so any suggestion there as any notes in this style tend to be very exposed and not 'lost' in a chord and so needs fixing. For some reason, this particular note comes up a lot. No effect on the adjacent strings on the same fret and perhaps more likely that it is a little low there rather than a higher single fret above as far as I can see above it.
...
And so, not started to explore the hex thing for a bit either, but am really keen on the idea of such a facility and what else it might be capable of dining if it is successful.
...
It is interesting to see how many p[people are interested or building piezo and piezo/mag systems so will be watching with interest if such projects suffer from similar problems perhaps. A little flummoxed by this particular noise in the system and can't seem to track it down. I'm not above attempting a completely different scheme, perhaps using my stew mac 500k blend pot things that were not used if anyone can come up with a solution to what is going on here.
...
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Post by JohnH on Mar 5, 2012 3:38:24 GMT -5
Nice to hear an update Pete.
I may have forgotten, but does the pot scratchiness which occurs when you turn the knob, happen only when the strings are sounding, or always even if no string sound?
John
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Post by 4real on Mar 5, 2012 5:49:51 GMT -5
Nice to hear an update Pete. I may have forgotten, but does the pot scratchiness which occurs when you turn the knob, happen only when the strings are sounding, or always even if no string sound? John Both... I will want to eventually have this kind of thing sorted because I can feel that in time I will want to refine this 'concept' kind of thing with a different kind of thing, ideas formulating. I might ironically, should the hex thing work out, do away with the other systems and use that. I can say though that most of it is a fantastic 'concept' both in sound and utility...however, there really is a performance use for those controls but with such a play, there really needs to be silence in that. There is a slight background 'hiss' but that is common with this kind of piezo and buffer things I am thinking, not too bad. The new verb+ really opens up the sound to give it breathing room. |
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