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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 10, 2011 14:03:37 GMT -5
Hi Everyone! First time poster. I came to this forum as I saw that you guys are known to be the internets best wiring gurus. I'm posting for two reasons to do with a current project that is at the wiring stage. Firstly it is to get opinions on creative but useful ways to use the options available to me with the switches I have Secondly, I really have so little knowledge on guitar electrics, it seeming rather esoteric and scary to me , so I would be really grateful if you can either point me to info on the board that will help me (I have searched honest!!) or even help me in thread to wire this up correctly. I am a total wiring layman but willing to learn if you can be patient with me!! It's one GFS HB Lipstick and one GFS single Lippy with two mustang style switches and an additional 3 way switch for basic switching between pups. The Stang switches I want to use for some tonally useful combination of splitting/series/parallel/phase/out of phase or some combination of those. The tones must be useful though! 1 tone, 1 vol, orange drop cap. The body cavities are fully sheilded with copper tape. Okay so here is 2 pics of the project mocked up followed by a pic of the parts I have for the wiring. js001 by Davemeister23, on Flickr js002 by Davemeister23, on Flickr js003 by Davemeister23, on Flickr Kind regards Dave
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Post by newey on Oct 10, 2011 22:56:56 GMT -5
TLG- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2! (shuffles feet . . .) We like you already! I have the GFS Dual Lipstick HB in my single HB Strat. The wiring is butt simple, a P/P on the Vol pot to select series/parallel on the 2 coils. I just flat love that pickup, it has a nice chimey bright sound in the bridge position. I use the parallel setting quite a bit, so I highly recommend having the ability to select the coils in parallel on these. I tried a coil split arrangement before I simplified things to what I have now. These pups are fairly low output, and so one coil of the two didn't really cut it for me, I ended up ditching that option. But as they say, your mileage may vary . . . Now, if this HB is going in the neck position on your guitar, everything I said is probably null and void. I love the Mustang shape with the original slide switches, if you're going to have a Mustang I'd say wire those just the way Leo intended. Phase between the neck and bridge is worth doing; phase between the individual HB coils is not, I'd scratch that off my palette if I were you. But again, just my opinion. One question that may bear on your wiring selections: What type of music do you play? And what type of sound are you trying to achieve? (OK, 2 questions . . .
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Post by 4real on Oct 11, 2011 3:21:04 GMT -5
Woah...is that yours!? Thstd on nice looking guitar there Newey ... Oh...welcome TLG Not a big fan of Mustangs myself but will be interested how the things sounds with these pickups as I ahve a future project in mind to feature a few of them in something very gold and sparkly...a long way off though! I had a strat with a selector switch in that location and found it to be great and prefer gibson style selectors generally so I think you are on a winner there. I tend to turn mine on a 45 degree angle so it would swing towards the neck more up, and the controls down rather than 90 degrees to the strings. Both my LP and tele do that, I find it is more intuitive and prone to knocking so easily. Newey's 1 or 2 questions really are crucial... Splitting the lips may well not be the greatest option, unless that is the sound you are after, these things are after all just two standard SC on an HB base. I'm fussy about noise and like a N+B combo, so perhaps consider that as an option with a split HB to optimise noise cancellation might be an option. Phase might be a bit extreme, but the HOoP option can be very cool on the right guitar. I liked the full OoP on my tele but the HOoP is great on my strat. Tone controls and volume controls are your friend too, so many people forget to use them. Parallel is a great sound on my LP and feel I was mislead all these years and prefer that to split...plus it is still noise cancelling, so definitely something to consider. Not sure how far you can go with those slide switches but there are some pretty versatile ones about. If you can get series wiring, that would be a cool option on a jangly guitar for more power and jazzier darker tones. Although I might not be so fond of the mustang, there are plenty of people about that like the retro cool of the things and it is for sure a nice guitar coming along well. Wiring is generally reversible till you start drilling holes in the instrument, so have a go with a scheme that seems to suit and feel free to tinker as time goes on...
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Post by asmith on Oct 11, 2011 5:50:30 GMT -5
Welcome to GuitarNutz2, Dave. I came to this forum as I saw that you guys are known to be the internets best wiring gurus. I'll let that one slide. First thing to determine is how your Mustang switches work. There seems to be a few varieties of switch, be them On-Off-On, On-On-On, whether there are "universally common" lugs, or not. Then we know what you're playing with and can come up with viable suggestions.
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Post by gumbo on Oct 11, 2011 7:19:47 GMT -5
I'm sure they make something for split lips....
...but I'm not going there, OK?
Welcome!!
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 11, 2011 9:10:55 GMT -5
I'm sure they make something for split lips.... ...but I'm not going there, OK? ..there's always one...don't make me whip out another drummer joke... HTC1 And Welcome TLG.
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 11, 2011 13:11:51 GMT -5
Hi Guys, Thanks for the responses! I'll do my best to be as specific as possible with everything as I know what it's like when N00bers come into forums throwing out random requests without knowing what they really need or what to do! Soooo in order of questions: One question that may bear on your wiring selections: What type of music do you play? And what type of sound are you trying to achieve? (OK, 2 questions . . . Oh wow that guitar looks ace! Love the classic simplicity in the looks you've given it! did you use 250k pots or 500k?? At the moment I'm purely a bedroom noodler and don't go for a specific style although I like loud rawkous stuff like Shellac, Melvins, Jesus Lizard and that kind of proggy post-punk vibe. I also like breaking out heavy sludgy riffs (stoner/doom/ rather than pure metal) and twee sounding jangly stuff. To be honest though I'm a 'tinkerer' and in many ways this guitar is dictated by the look and the parts i've chosen - like the GFS HB Lippy may not be the hugest thickest HB by all accounts but I can still use a booster pedal to thicken things up if I'm in HUGE RIFF mood. That's a round-abouts way of saying I'm happy to see what this does once its done and see if inspires new ways of noodling I also do not have much knowledge about how series/parra/phase etc sounds other than what I've read so am happy to take advice on board like your comment on phasing the HB is exactly the real-world practical info I need! SO from this I have learnt that with this HB in the bridge that Splitting it is not so good but Series/Para works well with it. Phasing is worth having between the Bridge HB and the Neck SC but not between the HB coils... (I'll summarize these good points at the end of this post to build an overall picture and final goal.) Splitting the lips may well not be the greatest option, unless that is the sound you are after, these things are after all just two standard SC on an HB base. I'm fussy about noise and like a N+B combo, so perhaps consider that as an option with a split HB to optimise noise cancellation might be an option. Phase might be a bit extreme, but the HOoP option can be very cool on the right guitar. I liked the full OoP on my tele but the HOoP is great on my strat. Tone controls and volume controls are your friend too, so many people forget to use them. Hear you on the Toggle angle! Will take that on board for sure. I'll add the possibility of split HB with neck SC in hum cancel mode as an option if the switches will allow for that too. OOP = Out of Phase but what does HOOP mean? First thing to determine is how your Mustang switches work. There seems to be a few varieties of switch, be them On-Off-On, On-On-On, whether there are "universally common" lugs, or not. Then we know what you're playing with and can come up with viable suggestions. The switches are 3 way type (Fender part# 0017087000) like this: . A guide to how the switches work on a stock Mustang can be seen here: fendermustangstory.com/images/mustangpu.pdfI'll add links after the summary below to existing mustang wiring guides and schematics below I'm sure they make something for split lips. Well indeed - hoping I can avoid splitting my brain with help from you kindly folks and by summarising what I've learnt and what I'm thinking for your further consideration!: 1. THINGS THAT SOUND COOL AND I WANT FOR SURE:- SERIES/PARA ON THE BRIDGE HUMBUCKER - OUT OF PHASE BETWEEN THE BRIDGE HB AND NECK SC - 2 3-WAY MUSTANG SWITCHES FOR THE FINAL TONE OPTIONS - GIBSON STYLE TOGGLE FOR BRIDGE/BOTH/NECK 2. THINGS THAT SOUND COOL BUT ONLY IF SWITCHING ALLOWS AFTER ACHIEVING OPTIONS IN LIST 1- SPLITTING THE HB COILS BUT JOINED WITH THE BRIDGE SC FOR HUM CANCELLING IF SWITCHING ALLOWS - PHASE (?), HOOP (?) - SERIES/PARA BETWEEN THE BRIDGE HB AND NECK SC (IF THAT'S EVEN POSSIBLE - I'M JUST SHOOTING IN THE DARK ON THAT ONE) Here's some schematics for existing mustang and Jag-Stang wiring as a basis from which to build on, plus a visual wiring guide with photos: Here's a wiring diagram for 2 HBs with the series / phasing options which might help: Visual guide: www.shortscale.org/wiki/index.php?title=Wiring_A_Fender_MustangHow Mustang 3-way switches work under a stock wiring set up: fendermustangstory.com/images/mustangpu.pdfwww.jag-stang.com/faq/mustang/switches-on-the-mustang/PHEW! Sorry that's quite exhaustive but I figure the more details you have the less hassle this request for help should be - and I very much appreciate your expertise.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 11, 2011 14:06:03 GMT -5
I came to this forum as I saw that you guys are known to be the internets best wiring gurus. No, no, no! You want the fellows over in Building 25 for that stuff. Here in The Booby Hatch Building 100, we're known on the innerwebs as "Those Nutz", an altogether different set of symptoms! For that reason, you can safely ignore all the above as just a bunch of drivel. Well, all except for that part about whipping out a relief for injured labia.... that's medically relevant, and you should store that info away for a rainy day. While I'm not taking bets on it, I'd lay 8 to 5 that it will be ashcatlt who chimes in with the downside of running a SC and a full-on Hb together, vis-a-vis hum rejection..... Oh, and while I've got your attention.... Hi, and to the NutzHouse! sumgai
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Post by asmith on Oct 11, 2011 15:45:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. So they're your standard Mustang switches. Jag-Stang.com doesn't seem to work for me at the moment. Most odd. I get how the original Mustangs are wired, and what they achieve. What I'm specifically asking now is how the switches work. Maybe someone else can chime in and make a confirmation on this. Let's label your switch lugs like so: A B C D E F G HOn your standard switch, does it work like so: Position #1 | Position #2 | Position #3 | A&B, E&F | None | C&D, G&H |
Or does it work like this: Position #1 | Position #2 | Position #3 | A&B, E&F | B&C, F&G | C&D, G&H |
This may seem like a real bore little nitpicker of a question, but it allows us to fiddle with your baby's switches, get some more options out of the potential wiring. Though as Gumbo said, fiddling with her switches may lead to sore lips.
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 11, 2011 16:52:15 GMT -5
Honest answer is I don't know BUT I will go find out and report back tomorrow!
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Post by newey on Oct 11, 2011 18:16:50 GMT -5
OK, lots going on here, thelastguitarist, so let's try to tidy some things up a bit. First, when I said wire the slide switches like on an orig Mustang, I missed the part about how you had a 3-way toggle to handle the pickup switching duties. With that in place, the slide switches for on-off would be redundant, the only thing they would add would be the out-of-phase option. And, the original Mustang switching is redundant anyway, as the diagram linked to shows. You only need one phase switch to phase 2 pickups. To asmith- The first option you show is an On-Off-On DP3T and that is in fact what original Mustang switches do- no connections in the center. At least, that's what I think- this was a question in the Year-End Quiz for 2009 . . . The second version asmith shows would be an On-On-On arrangement, which do exist in the same size as Mustang switches and which would afford TLG quite a bit more flexibility. TLG- If you have a multimeter, you should check the switches anyway just to be sure. I built my white Strat shooting for "Bright with a capital B". So the volume pot is 500K, while the tone pot is 1MΩ. It's in fact a bit too bright even for my tastes, but this is easily solved by dialing the tone control back to about a 6-7. I'm thinking out loud here, but I could envision using the slide switches as follows- one for series/off/parallel for the HB coils, the other to put the neck OOP/off/in phase? BTW, TLG, these are our shorthand notations on the phasing things: "OOP"= "out of phase" "SOOP"= "series out of phase" "POOP"= Parallel out of phase "HOOP"= "Half out of phase"
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 11, 2011 18:17:30 GMT -5
Okay they are DP3T switches....don't know if that tells you the info you need but I'll keep looking - will ask a couple of mustang experts I know. Also I'm open to using other switches as long as they are white and look like the current mustang switches!
EDIT: oops cross post with newey!
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 11, 2011 18:28:55 GMT -5
I'm thinking out loud here, but I could envision using the slide switches as follows- one for series/off/parallel for the HB coils, the other to put the neck OOP/off/in phase? This sounds good to me! If an on/on/on switch opens up other stuff that might be cool too but then again I suspect if I had a million tones open to me I'd probably only ending up using a couple of them. So unless anyone can think of a really useful reason to extend the switch functionality beyond your idea I'd be happy with that! Really guys, thank you for your advice, glad I've come to the right place
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Post by newey on Oct 11, 2011 19:17:32 GMT -5
Well, again, the "off" setting in the center is redundant. If you had the On-On-On version, it would open up using one switch to do the HB series/parallel and add coil cut to the menu. As I said, it's not much by itself, but combined with the neck it's a winner and can be set up so as to be hum-cancelling with selection of the proper coil.
I don't really think there's much that can be done with the center "off" setting, besides "Off", obviously, but let's think on it a while.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Oct 11, 2011 19:49:40 GMT -5
Here is my demo, which will show you some series/paralell/oop sounds. Of course, I've got different pups, but the Neck-Bridge combos would prolly be somewhat usefull for you to hear. Note, my HB is always in series with itself, the series settings are inter-pup series.
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Post by newey on Oct 11, 2011 21:06:37 GMT -5
If you do want to go with the On-On-On version, Stew-Mac has them here: www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Switches_and_knobs/Switchcraft_Slide_Switches.html
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 11, 2011 23:58:42 GMT -5
While I'm not taking bets on it, I'd lay 8 to 5 that it will be ashcatlt who chimes in with the downside of running a SC and a full-on Hb together, vis-a-vis hum rejection..... What, like 1 + (1 + (-1)) = 1 ? Part of me says keep it simple. Replace the sliders with DPDT version. Phase for one of the pickups (which one will you use for feedback?) and System Series Override. Use the 3-way like normal - unless it's overridden by the slider. If you really want S/P or split on the HB you could use push/pull pots.
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Post by 4real on Oct 12, 2011 2:20:54 GMT -5
hmmm...this thread has got me interested in using these slide types on my current project...
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 12, 2011 9:32:52 GMT -5
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 12, 2011 9:35:36 GMT -5
Here is my demo, which will show you some series/paralell/oop sounds. Of course, I've got different pups, but the Neck-Bridge combos would prolly be somewhat usefull for you to hear. Note, my HB is always in series with itself, the series settings are inter-pup series. JFrank - that's an incredibly clear demo and some nice playing! Not a bad tone amongst them!
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 12, 2011 9:39:18 GMT -5
If you do want to go with the On-On-On version, Stew-Mac has them here: www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Switches_and_knobs/Switchcraft_Slide_Switches.html Ah! I'm even more sure now the stock switches are ONONON - the lsiting actually says fender use them on their guitars: "These high-quality, double-pole switches made by Switchcraft™ are found on Fender guitars as well as other instruments, amplifiers, and effects pedals. Black plastic lever is 3/8" (9.53mm) tall, and mounting screws are included. 1232 3-way: For Mustang and Duosonic guitars. DP3T (double-pole/triple-throw), on/on/on switch has eight lugs, four on each pole."
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Post by asmith on Oct 12, 2011 9:41:11 GMT -5
Do you have a multimeter? Let's put this to bed.
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Post by thelastguitarist on Oct 12, 2011 10:53:12 GMT -5
Do you have a multimeter? Let's put this to bed. Alas no but I'll see how much they are and pick one up if not really expensive
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Post by sumgai on Oct 12, 2011 15:09:50 GMT -5
I think I'm gonna have +1 TLG for doing more research here than any of the long-time Nutz. Come on, guys, stop thinking electically and start thinking mechanically - how could a switch like this possibly connect the two outer lugs (per pole) if it didn't also connect the two inner lugs (again, per pole) when in the center position? This ain't The Warren Commission's Magic Bullet™ here, it's just plain common sense. Hence, the proper nomenclature is On-On-On. In a double-pole setup, there are lots of possible Nutty things to do, way beyond what Leo imagined in 1964. ~!~!~!~!~!~ And ash, that was correct (of course!) - 1 being the representation of audible hum, and by implication, 0 (zero) being the representation of no audible hum. What ash said was that anytime you have 3 coils connected, in either series or parallel, there will always be some amount of hum in the output, regardless of which ones (if any) are RWRP. This won't affect the tone so much, but it does explain why there's still some less-than-desirable noise in the final output, particularly when one expects a Humbucker to live up to its name. TIA, HTH sumgai
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Post by newey on Oct 12, 2011 18:34:19 GMT -5
Now wait just a cotton-pickin' minute! I did, and was relying on several different sources, including this GuitarPartsResource listing which specifically describes it as an original Mustang switch and as being On-Off-On. Oh, I dunno, maybe the same way a DPDT On-Off-On toggle switch works? Or, someone can go to Mouser and buy this one from C&K to take it apart and see how it works: Without getting too snarky here, the switch do exist!
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Post by sumgai on Oct 13, 2011 2:25:48 GMT -5
newey, Yes, that switch does indeed exist, but it's not the same switch. In fact, I'd liken more to the orignal Strat/Tele switch wherein some bright bulb found the "in-between" positions, and voila! In your linked puppy, there are only three lugs per pole, and the "middle" throw is off because the slide-contacts don't touch either of the two outer lugs, only the single central lug (again, per pole). That is indeed on-off-on, no doubt about it. And yes, you did research, but so did others, both before and after TLG. However, when I saw the phrase "take it apart to see what's happening", even after all the previous postings, I felt it was time to speak up. Some of us get stuck in a rut, and forget to look around at other possibilities. I know I do, that's why I sometimes seem "dormant" - I purposefully take a break and spend that time keeping tabs on other aspects of my life. And after all, what the hey, I am The Almost Real Boss around here, I can +1 a newbie if I wanna... can't I? sumgai
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Post by asmith on Oct 13, 2011 3:33:00 GMT -5
Come on, guys, stop thinking electically and start thinking mechanically - how could a switch like this possibly connect the two outer lugs (per pole) if it didn't also connect the two inner lugs (again, per pole) when in the center position? This ain't The Warren Commission's Magic Bullet™ here, it's just plain common sense.
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Post by newey on Oct 13, 2011 5:27:58 GMT -5
Easy, gai. I wasn't questioning the +1 at all, only the statement that we (or at least, I) hadn't looked before speaking. The switch is apparently variously described.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 14, 2011 4:00:35 GMT -5
newey, I'll let the thread stand as my witness. ~!~!~!~!~!~ Ace, Where did you get that funky diagram? Certainly not from a working switch, I hope.....
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Post by asmith on Oct 14, 2011 5:08:44 GMT -5
I found it in Start->My Documents->My Pictures. These I found on my desk just now: Obviously, not to scale.
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