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Post by genmce on Oct 13, 2011 8:52:19 GMT -5
Pics added.   I was trying to lower the nut slot on high E. I was using a utility knife to try to trim down. Yeah I know - a sledge hammer to drive a nail... I had been using an exacto knife - I will read the DIY nut files after I fix my nut. I twisted the blade while in the high E slot and a piece of the nut shot off, it was the last slot I need to lower... alas. The guitar is a sigma martin dm-1. Thankfully I found the piece. I believe the nut is bone by the way it feels in my hand, it could be plastic? I can fit the piece back in place, no missing material. Can I use superglue to fix it? Do I need baking soda too? Thanks all. |
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 13, 2011 10:15:26 GMT -5
I'd like to see a picture to give you an absolute answer...but if the nut split or cracked it's time for a new nut. Period. A Tusq nut will run you around $10.00 US. You'll still need to fit and slot it, but once you're done the fix is somewhat permanent.
You can try the baking soda and crazy glue routine, but it's going to be some pretty hard stuff to cut back down. An exacto knife will not be your tool of choice for that one.
The DIY nut files actually worked better then I expected. They're slower then standard nut files when cutting, but that can be a good thing for a novice nut cutter.
Put up a picture and we'll give you a better diagnosis.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by gitpiddler on Oct 14, 2011 9:53:20 GMT -5
This was the factory piece? The only good reason to lower the nut slot is if the first couple of fretted notes are sharper than the rest, as with a crappy locking nut on my favorite ride.
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 15, 2011 8:57:18 GMT -5
GP points out the most common reason for cutting a nut. Most nuts are cut too high. How much of this is a lack of quality control and how much of it is to allow individual setup for the player at the point of sale is a matter of debate an opinion...
Your playing style and how heavy or light your touch is needs to be factored into cutting a nut. I cut my nuts .020" at the first fret, then see how it works for the player. For someone with a heavy hand this is normally good. Someone with a very light touch can get down to .010", but the frets and neck really need to be tuned to keep this from buzzing like crazy. Lesson here is that cutting a nut without a feeler gauge is just asking to screw it up.
You need to consider your own style before you just have at it. Trying to hack to nut just to get that Unobtanium low action may make the guitar unplayable for you and based on what and how you play. From my experience, the players with the lowest action have such a light touch that you'd swear it's just the moving air off the pick vibrating the string... It takes years of practice and a concentrated effort to develop that kind of touch.
And shimming a locking nut is easier then cutting one... The complete lack of standardization between manufacturers of locking nuts and neck builders doesn't help much either. You place of origin can throw it all out the window, too. The shelf for a locking nut is critical, and changing fret size, or worn frets does tend to raise Hell with them. Opportunity cost for the advantage gained... My preference would be locking tuners, but that's another can of worms...
The first guy out with an adjustable locking nut, similar to saddles in a bridge, is gonna have something. The first one out with an idiot proof system like that, which doesn't cost your left leg, will have a gold mine.
A change in string gauge to a heavier gauge, or a change in frets to a smaller profile are also typical reasons for recutting a nut.
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is one of the better reasons to buy a guitar from a shop with talent employed. You pay more on the front end, but you don't make it up on the back end, or give up playability by trying to tweak a setup that should have been right when you walked out the door...'nuff said...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Oct 16, 2011 4:41:17 GMT -5
Shame about the nut break there G...they can be easy to break for sure. Some interesting musings there C1 The nut can be one of the most important factors in the way a guitar plays and a constant frustration. Generally taking some skill and specialized tools. I put a graph tech XL on my LP (that now comes in 'ivory coloured, not just the old 'black') and although the string slots and arch was perfect, it took all day to file down the bottom to get it just as I wanted it. Of course, go too far and perhaps I could have saved it with a shim, but perhaps I might have had to reorder and start all over again. In fact, I filed right through my jeans while watching tv and filing away at the thing. Perhaps the best nut I've used is the newer LSR roller nut on my tele...  This nut requires permanent alteration to the nut slot, to make it wider forward of the position so the rollers are where the nut should be...a small amount, but means you are committed. It attaches with tiny screws and comes with shims to get it just right. It is a specialized thing though and while it fits the guitar ok, a squier neck is a little skinnier than a legit fender and it might not work for a lot of copies. It's a very clever design, with string pads behind the rollers to dampen headstock vibrations and allow no string trees with locking tuners. The kahler offers an extreme range, but this system stays in tune amazingly well and got me around the whole 'nut slot' thing...the entire system was very expensive in all though. Again, as C1 was saying, standardization. If looking at nuts. I can recommend the graph tech products and generally the nut slots are perfectly moulded into the material, so all you need to be able to do is file down the back of the nut accurately and flat...tricky but far easier than slotting and no special tools for slotting required. They carry quite a range of different type for different neck widths and such....the graphite makes them slippery which is a good thing, even for non trem guitars. ... I've been doing a little bit of 'slotting' with the limited tools I have making my projects bridge of late. After reading this thread and experiencing tuning instability (even with locking tuners and no string trees or trem!) and the causes were all traced back to the slots in the bridge, and in the nut so adjustments will need to be made. Part of the problem in the nut was simply thicker bass strings so that the A string was sitting only half inside the slot and will require widening. With wound strings, you can sometimes use a short length of wound string itself as a 'file'. For the higher strings, I have a cheap but fine 'hobby saw' that cuts about a .01 slot, it seems that the thicker B string is binding in this case and again, will need to be carefully adjusted. ... I've never been a fan of locking nuts and have gone to efforts and expense to avoid them. With the availability and quality of locking tuners, graphite or roller nuts and proper setting up of trems, I don't personally see the need to go that way. But then, I've never got along with floyds nor tend to require the range that they can provide even though the kahlers at least match them in that department. Still, some necks are built for them, so hard to convert back (though the larger LSR could well be neatly adapted for a lot of necks). ... I'm tempted to try something like the evana and similar systems on this new guitar...not sure if anyone has thoughts on these or used or fitted them. I've even considered simply adapting a graphtech or similar to fit similarly to an LSR with tiny screws and shims...but it is probably easier and take less effort to simply file those down. ... For most 'budget' guitars, nuts have to be a bit higher...generally you are not getting any real 'set-up' on such guitars...truss rod, intonation, neck shimming...and certainly not the delicate and risky nut slotting operation. You can make them lower, but really it is such a fine line and often you don't know that you have crossed it before it is too late. It is important to 'know your playing style' as well as is eluded to above. I think I deveoped a fairly light fretting style because as a teen I set out to get a single 'super' guitar and had it worked over (unfortunately in the manner of the late seventies in some respect). This included sizeable jumbo frets that replace the original "fretless wonder" frets of the custom and i really noticed I could fret things out of tune. The nut was extremely well cut in brass to suit (as was the fashion in the day) and this expert work has stood the test of time for many decades, hundreds of string changes, and many, many hours of play. The details of guitars can make so much of a difference and it will be worth learning the experience of replacing a nut, along with taking the time to work out bridge adjustment and such. It can take a lot of frustrating work for some things like nuts, but the end results can make a world of difference in the whole feel of a guitar and how well it plays in tune. There are guitars though, even fairly 'cheap ones' whre the nut is quite decent. My strat kept both the original squier nut (which required no adjustment at all) and the complete original bridge, even though it was soaking up money in other areas to bring it up to real fender high end specs and had the appreciation of the LSR. My new project too, while needing some adjustment, should be a perfectly serviceable nut I would think. If the whole nut seems to be a bit "high" but the slots ok, then perhaps the best thing to do is to take it out and file off the bottom till it is right. The strings should not be sitting deep into the slots and without decent tools (that even I have never been able to justify over the years) it's like that you will need to shape the top of the nut as well to reduce friction and binding. Ok...well a few thoughts...has anyone some good alternatives to all the nut making paraphernalia required to do the job properly? |
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Post by genmce on Oct 16, 2011 7:43:29 GMT -5
I have had the guitar for years, probably at least 8. I bought it at MF out in Oregon. I had no idea what a good acoustic should feel like. I played it but it never felt right. I have been reading here and I have a couple Erlewine books. I have recent setup a few cheap electric guitars, the austin bazaar mentioned other thread, etc. I decided it was time to setup the acoustic. I setup the neck relief to about .006" (not flat but not high either). The action at the capo'd 13th fret was too high for me high (E=.110, A=.110, D=.110 G=.110, B=.10, E=.90). 1st fret nut height (E=.09 and I forget the rest). Cyn1 - you ask a great question - playing style. I am a pretty light touch. I don't slam on it. I use a pick and sometimes "try" to fingerpick. I am not after earth shattering nut height. Just something more comfortable. GP Sigma - is gone, they don't make guitars anymore, I could not sell it for much, it does not sound that great. I have seen em on Craigslist for less than $100. It is the factory nut, but the 1st fret action was so high for me it was very uncomfortable to play for very long. So why not use it as a learning tool. See if I can bring it into at least comfortable to play. Which I was very nearly there... I was on the last item, I explain below. What I had done to that point felt much better to play. No it was not like skating on glass, but at least it was not moguls. So I adjusted the truss rod as above. Then I discovered that the bridge (saddle) is glued down. Crap. So I have to adjust action from the top, I tried using a file - very slow so I switched to dremel (which worked quickly - I was careful not to go too far, too fast.) acceptable action achieved. Then remove capo and try to get the nut height better. I used the xacto - I had used it on the austin bazaar ok. I had finished all the other string slots with xacto and was trying to finish the hi e. I then went too far by using a utility knife and twisted and zing off it the piece went. You can see that the break did not go all the way to the bottom of the nut. I decided to attempt the super glue, today, with rubber band holding it in place. I don't know if I used enough glue or if it will hold, or how long? I don't plan on touching it for a couple of days. I will post back success or failure. Yes I know I need to lower the top height of the nut, as the strings are buried in there. First things first, see if the glue holds. In the meantime I am in the market for another acoustic. I sold the aria 7 string, the epi sg, and an old yamaha 12. So I have a little cash on hand. I think I want a cutaway, acoustic electric. I am looking used and want to spend about 500. Recommendations? |
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 16, 2011 11:31:43 GMT -5
Not sure how the "capo'd 13th fret" measurements figures into the nut here...that's a method for cutting your saddles... And you're right, the top of the nut really needs a filing to bring it down for your current slot depth. Your sustain and overall tone from the strings suffers when you cut them that deep and don't clean up the top. The path to a full nut file set is an expensive one. Most people buy the basic set and cheat. Over the years I had collected damn near a complete set, but mother nature decided I didn't need them anymore, so I found myself fileless for my two projects. I would strongly recommend trying the DIY Nut files... Are they just like real nut files? No. Do they work? Yes...and much better then an exacto knife... They cut slower, but for a novice nut cutter this is an advantage. Since you have a Dremel tool, and if you have cutoff wheels, a good set of feeler gauges costs around $10.00. It took me about 20 minutes to cut a full set. There are a few Gospel factors when cutting a nut. The width of your slot is generally 2-3 thousandths wider then your string gauge. Unless you have some super human eyesight, that's pretty damn hard to pull off with a knife. Sting buzz and dead strings are the primary symptoms of the width being off. You already seem to be aware of nut depth and where the string should sit, so I'll leave that off for now. The last thing, and most techs miss this one too, but the back of the slot should be fluted towards the pegs. You only want a flat shelf on the slot for about 1/3 to 1/2 of the nut, depending on style. You want to work a break over on the back of the slot to allow the string to gradually bend over and exit cleanly towards the pegs. You can only get this with a file, or a file-like tool. Great nuts. I didn't know they came in ivory. And 4Real makes some very good points here as well. Locking nuts are a solution to a tuning instability issue. Friction is a major contributor to that instability. The Graph Tech or roller nuts are a much better solution, IMHO, then locking nuts. While I love the roller nuts, 4Real makes the point, which has limited their popularity, that this is a permanent modification. You can make a standard nut go back in there, but you are in for some "pattern maker" type of wood working to make it happen. Most cases you're looking at a new neck if you don't like the roller nuts. I prefer a heavier string gauge, so the roller nuts are out on that score, but the Graph Tech fills the bill perfectly. The second point I couldn't agree more with is locking tuners. And as 4Real also points out, go Schaller or stay home. I've seen most of the locking tuners out there, and for consistency, execution and life expectancy Schaller spanks everyone else. Buy it right, buy it once. By it cheap and buy it again...and again...and again... There, I said it, and I'm not ashamed. Well, that went off the rails quite a bit, didn't it... Sorry, but that just caught me and my neck snapped. Unless you've got some really swift machining tools, you want to always avoid filing the bottom of the nut. The better nuts are machined flat, or have the proper radius, depending on the guitar the neck is going on, to drop right into a clean nut shelf\slot. Any and all lowering of the nut should take place on the top of the nut. The old trick is to take a golf pencil and sand it half way so it has a half moon profile when looking at the point. Insert your nut in the CLEANED nut shelf, lay the pencil across the top two frets, flat side down, and run it side to side to mark the nut. This is your guide in lowering and filing the profile for the nut. File down to within about 1/16", or a couple mm of that line. The other option is to use the precut guides to preserve your pre-marked string locations, file the slots to their appropriate depth and then file the top of the nut down. The disadvantage to this method is that the nut is generally installed at this point and you have to maneuver around the guitar, as well as apply copious amounts of tape to protect the finish while you merrily file away. I've had to do it both ways and much prefer to file the top while it's out of the guitar. Well, that went off the rails a bit...back to the thread... The odds are the repair will hold on the high E string. And I would agree with you that if the guitar just doesn't feel right it's time to move it on to someone else. This was a good learning experience, if nothing else. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by 4real on Oct 16, 2011 13:25:01 GMT -5
sorry about the neck snap, but they are the instructions on a slotted graphtech and similar instructions. An exception would be a curved bottom fender style thing but fairly rare. Of course if you are cutting things from scratch in a blank, what you are saying is the way to do it. But for most that is some serious luthiery and requires a lot of skills and the specialized tools and risks exactly this kind of thing from the inexperienced in the process, certainly unlikely to slot the blank as well as a high quality slotting from the company. A decent flat file, accurate scribing of the line and a lot of elbow grease can produce a very decent result..and making sure you have exactly the right width and string spread required. here is the Graphtech Tusq installation PDF... www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-graphtech_nut/i-graphtech_nut.pdf from stew-mac www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/String_nuts/Tusq_Nuts.html and that is exactly the way mine went into my LP though required quite a bit of material to be removed, very slowly...  For best results this kind of work should probably be best done and certainly with an expensive or valued guitar by an expert at this kind of thing, but if the guitar is something you want to learn these skills on, then a preslotted nut can be very well fit with care and a lot of time with hand tools. I think one should avoid the temptation to take power tools, even a dremmel or something to such a task but you do have to be very careful that the bottom of the slot is square and flat. |
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 16, 2011 14:12:56 GMT -5
I think one should avoid the temptation to take power tools, even a dremmel or something to such a task but you do have to be very careful that the bottom of the slot is square and flat. A BIG AMEN to that. I cringe a little every time I see that. It's like hunting rabbits with a howitzer... Dremels are great tools. They have thousands of uses...but they're not for everything. Sometimes patience is a better tool. And I'm surprised the instructions from the manufacturer advises you to cut the bottom of the nut to fit it. That's just asking for trouble. I have a nut shelf/seating file...yeah, I know, one more damn special tool...but it really makes all the difference in cleaning up an old nut slot. It only cuts on the sides and has no serrations on the top and bottom. Medium on one side and fine on the other.  And that is a nice install on the LP. I saw that before and was very impressed. Very clever and slick. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by 4real on Oct 16, 2011 14:54:23 GMT -5
Graphtech "Tusq" make a big selection of very accurately slotted nuts, far better slots than most people would achieve without proper tools and skill and knowing exactly what the intention is in the task. The nut can make a huge difference to the whole feel of things and there are people who know exactly what they are doing that can make all the difference.
But, with pre-slotted nuts, few tools and no experience...file the bottom flat by hand, carefully, fit often (the LP there took all day and probably had the nut in an out or it at least 20 times). I used a big flat file, scored marks with pen wiped into the line.
I have a belt sander on my bench grinder and things like dremmels but, probably from past mishaps, don't trust myself using them even to take off the bulk of material. However, clearly it can be done!
...
The recently added pics of the break of the OP shows a bad break...potentially it can be glued back together ok, but it may always be fragile....a decent strum could perhaps have that side fly off.
It is likely a good candidate for a tusq replacement of a few dollars for the pre-slotted nut and the method of filing the bottom with those products and superb slots is likely to get the best results.
Nice file there C1...but again, unless you do a bit of guitar repair one is not likely to have or really have much call for such things. One can always improvise though, often some masking tape on the sides of an appropriate sized flat file will work to stop the sides cutting.
Perhaps I will find some feeler gauges some time.
...
On my tele's roller nut, I had to use a dremel and various hand tools...I masked everything up, measure several times and then taped a SS ruler to the cutting line to ensure that I would not have a complete disaster on my hands there. Some jobs can be extremely nerve wracking and for the amount of time it will take an amateur (such as myself) to do a good job and be sure not to hurt anything (and you have gainful employment to pay for it while they do their thing) then definitely a job for the right guy with the right tools.
I have seen a lot of people that pass themselves off as guitar repairers though and I am sure they have good intentions...I don't btw, only working on my own guitars. A big reason is not that I don't think I could do a good job but because it would take so long to do it right without the proper tools and a fair bit of experience at it, I could never charge an appropriate amount...while a great repairer will be able to do all this in half an hour or so and be sure of the end result.
But, in this case, replacing the nut with a graphtech yourself in the method they describe (preserving their slots as is) is not that hard and does work with minimal tools..literally a decent very flat file and some emery paper to polish up at the end...perhaps in this case cutting through the whole nut or pushing it out at the ends, a sharp knife to score the finish so that it wont chip when the nut comes out...masking tape...the usual precautions....good measuring tools...time and patience.
It may work out as well or even better than the factory nut in the end and be an improvement.
I've not had the experience of breaking the nut like this that I recall (though possibly might have blocked out some things) but I have certainly had the experience of deepening the nut just a little too far and wasted the whole thing or put up with an even worse mod than had i left it. It is ridiculously easy to do and I suspect that the best repairers learn from making a lot of mistakes along the way.
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Post by genmce on Oct 17, 2011 8:13:23 GMT -5
Ok - seems to be holding.
It is now higher, will need to make the diy nut file and bring it down now, without breaking it.
Or - as Cyn1 said maybe time to sell.
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