|
Post by asmith on Oct 19, 2011 12:10:05 GMT -5
...if I ask stupid questions or foster improbable rationalizations I apologize in advance. As long as you don't ask me to marry you, we'll be fine. Seriously, do you remember when I joined up here? The Nutz have put up with much worse than a master luthier not getting wiring right the first time. If you're not bothered about B South*B North*M*N, then forget I said anything concerning it. Newey, the five-way switch on your diagram gives you this: Pos. | Switch Down | Switch Up | 5 | B | B+(N*M) | 4 | B+M | B+M | 3 | M | M | 2 | N+M | M | 1 | N | N |
Assuming your five-way switch goes, from top to bottom on the left side, "5" lug, "3" lug , "1" lug, "Common." In positions 4, 3 & 2, Neck+ meets Neck- at the five-way switch and shorts. Plus, the N+M controls seem to be bypassed altogether as everything's going straight to the output jack anyway. Cyn, go ahead with what you were going to redraft this evening, let's take a look from there, and roll ahead. ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~ EDIT: Newey, while we're on the topic: One measure Absolut Peppar Vodka One measure Red Port One measure Tio Pepe or other Sherry One measure dark red wine (shiraz, cab-sav etc) One glug of Worcestershire sauceOne dollop Encona or other hotsauce of your choice (we used this for customers we didn't like) Top up with ice and tomato juice, shake well, add celery stick for garnish.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 19, 2011 12:56:38 GMT -5
Here's my take on this. I think this should work OK. It avoids the messiness of the separate neck/middle V and T controls and when in series mode the 5-way is bypassed and you get N*M regardless. But obviously it needs to be checked . . . Actually, I kind of like the messiness of the separate volume and tone controls...it was one of the main goals of the design... It's a bass player thing...we don't think blenders, we think separate volume controls... I could count on one hand the times I've had a bass to 10's on both the volume and tone controls If I put the 5 way out of the equation that could put me in a position of musical toggles to get a neck and bridge split combination. I could be lazy with the 5-way still in there...again...it's a bass player thing... I need to get home and look these changes over. Happy trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by newey on Oct 19, 2011 13:33:14 GMT -5
asmith-Never tried it with Port and red wine, I'll have to give that a try. Although I usually don't have a bottle of port in the house.
Other good Bloody techniques are to add a bit of horseradish, and to use celery salt to rim the glass.
I take your point on the switching scheme, I'll have to look at it again. There has to be a way to have the series/parallel switch bypass the 5-way, which is what I was trying to achieve.
And cyn:
I meant the "messiness" of trying to run them off of the commons of the 5-way switch, because they then become active when you've got it set to the bridge position as well. Nothing wrong with separate controls, I'm a big fan.
Your original design avoided this by using the other half of the 5-way to switch the bridge, but once you move the bridge over to the same side of the switch, then you can't run the mid/neck V and T off of the commons on that side.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 19, 2011 15:22:13 GMT -5
...Your original design avoided this by using the other half of the 5-way to switch the bridge, but once you move the bridge over to the same side of the switch, then you can't run the mid/neck V and T off of the commons on that side. I didn't know that. Learn something new everyday...whether you wanted to or not. Almost out of the salt mine, so I'll draw up the changes and repost Rev #8 tonight. Thanks again for all the tips, insights and bloody mary recipes... Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by thetragichero on Oct 19, 2011 15:45:12 GMT -5
we used this for customers we didn't like when i worked at the fried chicken/wing joint in high school, we would put a few drops of this in the wingsauce when guys would try to be macho and request the wings extra extra extra hot it usually would result in the consumer yelling a bunch of profanity at my boss also i once got a drop on my face and it burnt almost as much as the lye (or whatever it was) we used to clean off the chicken baskets i'm going to try your recipe tonight as it intrigues me, just need to purchase some tomato juice
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 19, 2011 17:55:07 GMT -5
...Your original design avoided this by using the other half of the 5-way to switch the bridge, but once you move the bridge over to the same side of the switch, then you can't run the mid/neck V and T off of the commons on that side. OK, looking at this briefly before I go out in the cold and rain for a few hours, if having the "bridge in" feed the left side of the switch hoses the neck and middle vol. and tone controls off of the left side common, what if I just move the "bridge in" back to the right side of the switch? Then run the bridge on switch to the right side common where it outs to the jack? What does this change, gain or negate? This is quickly becoming harder to watch what I'm doing then it is for me to do what I'm watching... Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by newey on Oct 19, 2011 20:59:04 GMT -5
Cyn, that's what I mean, use the right side of the switch for that. Or, do it as I did and run the Neck/middle V and T controls off the right side, just as a regular Strat does.
Either way, it'll all work out the same in parallel mode.
You are aware, I take it, that running the neck and mid in series will result in some funkiness to the common V and T controls for those pickups, as we've discussed many times.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 19, 2011 23:13:43 GMT -5
For better or worse, here's Rev. 8. This incorporates the revised switch wiring and moving the bridge module input to the right side of the 5-way. And I'm fine with the splits and the neck and middle being in series together. I really wasn't intending this guitar to be too laid back anyways... And if you mean "some funkiness to the common V and T controls" translates into the 50's wiring funkiness I can learn to adapt to that. I figure some of these concepts will work and some will be less then stellar. Somewhere in there will be something I can use and will set it apart from the other guitars in the arsenal. Most design is a compromise somewhere... I'm still suffering a bit or paralysis through analysis on the wire from the center leg of the neck\middle volume pot. By this I mean I'm still I'm still fuzzy on whether the run needs to be made since the bridge input has been moved to the other side of the switch. That...and I've only had about 5 hours of sleep the past 3 days... Anyways, look it over the sharpen your sticks. Gracias. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 20, 2011 2:51:54 GMT -5
This is great. So your Neck and Middle signals run through the five-way switch to determine what's on, then whatever is selected runs to your Neck and Middle Volume. Forget the Bridge signal just for the moment. Imagine there's a wire coming off of the N&M Volume centre lug. If you trace the signal in different positions, this is what's coming out of your arrangement: Pos. | Parallel | Series | 5 | - | - | 4 | M | N*M | 3 | M | N*M | 2 | N+M | N*M | 1 | N | N*M |
Now recall the Bridge signal on the other side of the five-way. Trace the signal in different positions, you see that the "Common" lug is seeing this: These two outputs from two modules are looking at each other in curious ways... fleeting glances across the room...
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 20, 2011 2:57:13 GMT -5
I’ve been watching this thread without being able to add much the last few days due to time and some pc issues, But I think you are just about there. The diagram above needs a wire from the neck/mid volume pot to the 5-way lower right lug, also connected to the lug above that. Then I think you have the basic strat combos, with the separate volume controls, the bridge-on and the ability to put N in series with M.
You have 4 sounds from the B pickup, using the asmith system. Do you know that you don’t need a three position switch as part of that, unless you want one?. You can get those 4 sounds with two dpdt toggles. Both up for series, both down for parallel, one up for north and other up for south. That part of your circuit is an independent module so you are free to choose whatever switching you want to deliver the bridge output to the next stages.
What you don’t have is bridge in series with N and/or M, If you are interested in this I would really recommend it because with your two sets of volume and range of tone caps, Im sure you will enjoy setting series combinations if you can get this to happen. It is much easier to set in-between combos in series than in parallel and your system will cover the whole range.
To do this, I think there is a good chance that this feature can be provided as an extension to the bridge-on switch, ie no extra holes. The Bridge-on would be replaced by an on-on-on toggle. Up would be standard B, B+M, M, N+M, N, centre is the same with bridge on (in parallel), down puts the bridge into series with N, M, N+M or even NxM. This would be cool, imagine noodling subtly on a bright bridge parallel setting, then with one flick, slam it with massive extra bass from NxM bypassed by one of your heavier tone caps?
Anyway, seem like you can get on with the painting before your world all freezes. Down here, we are in late spring, the grass is growing and the horses are getting fatter.
cheers
John
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 20, 2011 5:33:37 GMT -5
The diagram above needs a wire from the neck/mid volume pot to the 5-way lower right lug, also connected to the lug above that. The cat's out of the bag. True if Cyn wants the Bridge in Series switch option, but if we're just looking for parallel sounds, we might as well just wire N&M Vol. straight to right-side "Common." However Cyn, I fully recommend the option to have Bridge in Series. Like John says, it's not even an extra switch. Very true. Newey's got a great diagram of the scheme here. It has a hanging from hot issue in one position but this is easily fixed with a couple of wire changes. All depends what you want, Cyn. John, if you keep finding Holy Grails like these, the Knights Templar are going to start getting a bug up their arse. I had this but it hangs from hot in Series mode when you select "Bridge only" on the five-way. Even if Cyn isn't looking for this feature, I'd love to see a schematic for it.
|
|
|
Post by newey on Oct 20, 2011 6:38:21 GMT -5
I like JohnH's way better. If you connect to the right side commons, at position 5 the 2 pots still form a parallel resistance to ground, which might have the effect of darkening the bridge signal when in position 5.
At least, that's how it seems to me, maybe it makes no difference, IOW correct me if I'm wrong.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 20, 2011 6:42:16 GMT -5
This is what I was thinking of, in place of the bridge on switch: In the new on-on-on switch, Ive shown the internal connections when in the centre position, which is 'Bridge on'. Flicked down, both contacts connect 'up' and it is normal Strat switching. Flicked up, both poles connect down and its series mode. Actually it only just works, you have to select the B position on the 5-way, to be B in series with M or MxN. To work better (so it can get BxN) it would need one extra pole, which would lead to a 4pdt 0n-on-on. If its in series mode and the 5 way not set to B, then you just get what the N and M are doing - in practice probably logical enough. anyways..thats it for tonight down here... john
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 20, 2011 7:31:44 GMT -5
I like JohnH's way better. If you connect to the right side commons, at position 5 the 2 pots still form a parallel resistance to ground, which might have the effect of darkening the bridge signal when in position 5. Of course! I must have left my brain in the cloakroom momentarily. Agreed, 100%. By the way: horseradish - I'll have to try it. John, that is spectacular. I respectfully disagree with your statement that it "only just" works though. I printed out the diagram and traced it with a highlighter, in "1 - N" position on the five-way with "Bridge on in Series," and it worked out just fine, NxB. Is there something I'm missing? Cyn - In my humble opinion, that diagram is good to go.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 20, 2011 7:52:50 GMT -5
Man, that's a quantum leap from where I was last night...
So, BxN requires an additional pole... I never really toyed with any phasing...guess it' a bass player thing... Some of the samples I've heard were intriguing, but I don't know how much I would actually utilize it. Now B+N and B*N...now you're talking...
Let me toss this out. The physical hole where the SPST switch was set to go is very close to the 5-way...intentionally. I can probably squeeze a DPDT in there, but that's about it for that physical location. It's not that I don't have room in there, but I wasn't planning on parking the bus in the compact car space...
Having said that, as long as this guitar has the room in the cavity, what demonic manifestations can you build off an additional switch to mate with the bridge on? I like the idea of preserving a Neck and Bridge combo, but will need to stare at this tonight and get my head around it.
I have no problem making another hole to gain the neck and bridge combos. The clear can wait until Sunday...muahahaha...
Thanks again to everyone for bailing me out on this one. My brain hasn't hurt this much since ChrisK was here...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 20, 2011 14:33:16 GMT -5
'morning...
cyn - Just to check - Im not talking about phasing here, its all in phase. NxM and N*M mean the same to me.
Asmith - the issue with my diagram that I see is that in series mode, and unless the 5-way is set to the B position, then the output of both volume pots goes to the output, which is series mode means that the B pup is bypassed., so you could have BxM, M, M, M+N, N, or, with the NM series switch engaged, BxNxM, NxM, NxM, NxM, NxM
Cyn - If you really are up for one more switch, then keep the small bridge-on that you have and add another two position dpdt to add the bridge in series. (but phew..that would be 7 toggle switches?)
cheers
John
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 20, 2011 15:11:07 GMT -5
Fair enough on the X and *. Same Same...guess I really do need that Australian mirror after all...
And adding another toggle would not be as cumbersome as you might imagine.
As I said earlier, this is a 3 single coil \ 2 humbucker guitar. While that would make 7 switches, two are for tone and remain constant. The 5 way, as long as it works like a conventional 5 way is simple to operate. The humbucker has two switches, but they are intuitive and I can live with those. The switching for the 2 single coils is similar, in that you turn it on and off, then decide S or P.
Since it is modular it's really only 2 switches maximum per "pickup" depending on the choice of SSS or HH. As long as the logic makes sense to me laying it out and leaves no dead spots I can utilize it while playing.
I don't see myself playing out with this guitar, or any guitar, for quite some time. And I may never use all of the potential tones from this guitar. For now, I just want them there just in case.
Let me bang my head against this when I get home tonight. I'll look at you first revised drawing and hopefully it will click.
Thanks again.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 20, 2011 20:49:16 GMT -5
Let's hope 9 is a charm... I took the elements from JohnH's last idea for the S/P switch for the Bridge On switch, tossed the SPST switch back in..hopefully the correct way...and revised my last outing: If I understand everything to this point, this gives me all the positions of a Strat, plus a Neck and Bridge combo, all in series and parallel, along with a two humbucker guitar also with Series and parallel options. At least this is the thought I'm going with for now... I'm curious to experiment with the volume and tone controls. I have found that after a few months with Project #1 that I gravitate more to a darker sound from a guitar...old habits appear to still die hard. This will no doubt be accentuated by the position of the bridge pickup. It'll make more sense when you see it, but this body was originally a 24-3/4" scale with a FR. I filled in the FR and set the scale to 25-1/2". This puts the bridge pickup a little over 2" from the actual bridge. This is intentional as I wanted less of a bridge tone from the humbucker on this guitar. Time and testing will prove the theory valid and whether I get what I wanted or just what I asked for... Finger are crossed pending next vetting on this recent revision. Thanks again to all who pushed me along. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 21, 2011 3:02:57 GMT -5
544That is what I reckon is the number of tonal options that you will have, using all the switches and reckoning that each tone control is either at max, or at min, whereupon it has three switched cap settings. I think we will need a complete set of sound samples to allow scientific comparison, I suggest that each setting has a consistent single strum on an Em chord, allowed to decay for say 15 seconds, preceded by a brief verbal explanation of exactly what the control settings are for each sample. Post it on Youtube ‘cos I’m sure it would go viral. Yes Just a small adjustment, below, to the wires on the extra switch, Flicked down, the poles connect up to give parallel settings, flicked up the poles connect down you have series. cheers John
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 21, 2011 4:23:29 GMT -5
Asmith - the issue with my diagram that I see is... Yeah, I have no excuse. My bad. Yes, I think hooking the amplifier output to an oscilloscope and then comparing waveforms is only reasonable. I also want to see a wall of 200W Marshalls set up next to the herd in the field, taking notes on their reactions to the different settings. I'm thinking DVD boxsets. On your latest diagram John, when in "Series" mode, the "Bridge On" switch becomes redundant. Is this intentional? I'm trying to figure out a "Series/Parallel" pre-selector followed by a "turn the Bridge on with the determined setting" switch, like so: SW1 (S/P) | SW2 ("B" On) | Result | Up | Up | Normal | Down | Up | Normal | Up | Down | Bridge on in Series | Down | Down | Bridge on in Parallel |
I'm having trouble though. It is Friday.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 21, 2011 6:19:47 GMT -5
On your latest diagram John, when in "Series" mode, the "Bridge On" switch becomes redundant. Is this intentional? Its just the way it turns out - not intentional but not really a problem either IMO. Both switches can be thought of as 'bridge on', one for parallel and one for series John
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 21, 2011 7:27:19 GMT -5
544That is what I reckon is the number of tonal options that you will have, using all the switches and reckoning that each tone control is either at max, or at min, whereupon it has three switched cap settings. You know, I never even thought of counting them out. I just saw the road and never thought to count the cars... I'm just glad the planning for the road construction is done. I'll draw this up and post a final revision. I may flip switches to keep Series and Parallel all operating in the same orientation, but if I understand you, this one is ready for its close up. Well, if you play each sample at 15 seconds, with a 5 second explanation...and 30 seconds of bumper at the beginning and end along with 3 minutes of gut shots and explanations this video would run just 36 minutes short of Gone With The Wind. I don't think Vivian Leigh in her prime in a thong would send that video viral... But I am indebted for all your assistance and inspiration. I looked at that for about 20 minutes and just did a rock-paper-scissors decision of all pondered options. The world rejoices once again that I don't build circuits to target warheads... I'll get the final up tonight and hopefully not blunder though it. Again, thanks to all for holding my hand and keeping me out of the minefield. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 21, 2011 7:48:39 GMT -5
Yes, I think hooking the amplifier output to an oscilloscope and then comparing waveforms is only reasonable. I also want to see a wall of 200W Marshalls set up next to the herd in the field, taking notes on their reactions to the different settings. I'm thinking DVD boxsets. DVD box sets...this, from the country that gave the world Olivier, Attenborough, Dench, Burton and Mirren...how the mighty have fallen... And I'll get a fast car, a pistol and start knocking off liquor stores to cover the cost of the production...no worries here, mate... Don't worry about it for this project. I can wrap my head around the switching and it works fine for me. Academic exercises accepted. And I owe you one too. Happy trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Oct 21, 2011 23:48:20 GMT -5
OK, time to put this one to bed. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, let us all hope that this is the final revision. This should have all the appropriate switches added and wired as directed after all my errant meanderings were corrected. If anything looks wrong please shout it out. I'm drilling the extra hole tomorrow before I shoot the clear and would really like to avoid any "aw sh!t" moments... This design is really what puts this place a cut above. The culmination of ideas from three different continents. Funny when you think about it. Using some of the most sophisticated digital technology ever seen to devise workable plans for analog devices... Thanks again to ChrisK, JohnH, Asmith and newey for sticking it out, and, if nothing else, making me stop posting this damn thing... +1's to all of you Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Oct 22, 2011 5:40:47 GMT -5
seems good to me - good luck! (Ill admit i havent checked the asmith bit - but Im sure its right if he agrees)
Designing around the world - thats a pretty cool process and im proud of our forum that we can do such things. It happens all to rarely in commercial projects.
John
|
|
|
Post by asmith on Oct 22, 2011 13:51:22 GMT -5
seems good to me - good luck! Agreed. Go for it. Watch it, my ego will burst. Yeah, I want no more smarm about "bailing people out" from the Americans! In all serious, I'm in complete agreement. GN2 - Music Tech's little own utopia.
|
|