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Post by simes on Dec 18, 2011 17:44:39 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 18, 2011 18:59:56 GMT -5
This one will not have the string through option. It is strictly top load as I recall. No matter, it's still a fine piece of equipment. This is what's on Project #1 HTC1
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Post by Teleblooz on Dec 28, 2011 14:12:45 GMT -5
FWIW, I converted a toploader Squier Strat to string-through (using the basic Gotoh bridge from StewMac) and did notice a substantial improvement. It added a noticeable amount of beefiness to the overall tone.
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Post by simes on Jan 5, 2012 6:16:20 GMT -5
It won't matter if the length beyond the saddle is an inch or a mile. The tension will be exactly the same, to achieve the same pitch if the string gauge and the vibrating length are the same. But how far you have to turn the tuner will be greater, if you add length to the non-vibrating portion of the string. And how far you have to bend to change the pitch will increase, with additional non-vibrating length. So we could establish a scale of “bendability” taking into account scale length as well as string-behind-saddle (but ignoring differences in string-behind-nut) something like: 1. 24¾” with wraparound 2. 24¾” with TOM/stopbar 3. 25½” with toploader 4. 25½” with traditional trem 5. 25½” with string-through Unless I’m mistaken, this would make a toploaded Strat just about as bendy as a LP. FWIW, I converted a toploader Squier Strat to string-through (using the basic Gotoh bridge from StewMac) and did notice a substantial improvement. It added a noticeable amount of beefiness to the overall tone. Could this be due to better quality, better design or – especially – different materials in the Gotoh, I wonder?
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 5, 2012 12:05:51 GMT -5
It won't matter if the length beyond the saddle is an inch or a mile. The tension will be exactly the same, to achieve the same pitch if the string gauge and the vibrating length are the same. But how far you have to turn the tuner will be greater, if you add length to the non-vibrating portion of the string. And how far you have to bend to change the pitch will increase, with additional non-vibrating length. So we could establish a scale of �bendability� taking into account scale length as well as string-behind-saddle (but ignoring differences in string-behind-nut) something like: 1. 24�� with wraparound 2. 24�� with TOM/stopbar 3. 25�� with toploader 4. 25�� with traditional trem 5. 25�� with string-through Unless I�m mistaken, this would make a toploaded Strat just about as bendy as a LP. Scale of bendability? I suppose you could, but it gets a bit unwieldy, doesn't it? You're attempting to put a value on a combination of two different factors. How hard it is to deflect the strings and how far you have to deflect the strings. Changing one of the two but not the other is easy to evaluate. If you change both, but in opposite directions, then which has more "weight" in your assessment of bendability? And I don't think you can't ignore the length past the nut. Unless you have a locking nut.
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Post by 4real on Jan 6, 2012 5:05:53 GMT -5
Some interesting discussions here...certainly some swings and round abouts... Not entirely sure what one is trying to achieve... I might put in a plug for Hipshot... A little biased since I am using their trilogy, but looked into their construction and innovation and were a great company to work with on my current project...so big ups. They have CNC machining and entirely in teh USA...and innovative ideas like the trilogy, or the above 'grand' which is popular with a lot of custom builders...this version also a piezo bridge. Don't know if 'made in the USA' means anything really...I don't live there obviously, but unique and quality and service all counts for something. Quite partial to Kahlers too, though some aren't...but the solid nature of these really added 'clarity and separation' to the sound and you can add plenty of options. I also once changed an old strat with 'string savers' and noticed quite a bit of difference. My present bridge I made myself and is mostly aluminium and seems to be working ans sounding well...depends what you are after. ... Solid and materials can count..the kahler certainly has that if the guitar is suitable and there is a non-trem version though a bit big and heavy perhaps. But lets not consider the ergonomics and what you want from a guitar. I am feeling a lot more at home with my new guitar, probably because it is similar in the bridge to my TOM stop-bar LP I played for so many years. I love fenders, but they are flat and the strings close to the body and they certainly feel different to play. The 'feel' of the guitar really does make quite a bit of difference. There is a difference in 'feel' too between a lot of guitars...but it is hard to say exactly what is 'best', likely a 'myth' there...and tone is always 'vague'. But work out what you want, look for what mechanically makes sense and play a lot of guitars to find out what you like. And...dont forget a lot of people get a lot of 'tone' out of all kinds of guitars...don't discount the trem, it is a great invention and can sound great...and contribute greatly to the sound of a guitar like a 'strat' for instance. My present guitar has the longest string length of any I've played, and heavier strings and I can bend them easy enough...but everyone is different...I not that my high E uses a whole string less perhaps 2"...that's a lot of string! One thing that does make a difference is how much pressure is down on the bridge (also the nut on a lot of fender types) and a lot of guitars don't suit bridges because they don't have the space to achieve this. The kahlers get a bad rap for this some times as they need a bit and fenders can be a little too flat and low. This applies to a lot of guitars. A lot of bridges and such get a bad reputation becuase they are just not suitable for the application or set up properly, or by design fails to put enough pressure on the saddles and so the tone or vibration is a bit weak. Top loading bridges in particular suffer from this (the kahlers are top loading) as on say a fender type, the space to load the strings in the top lessens that angle over the bridge saddles. Again, right bridge for the instrument or a good set up to achieve what is required to get the bridge to work as it's best.
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Post by simes on Feb 1, 2012 17:43:41 GMT -5
Going back to the hardtail thing: Some top loaders do not provide enough break over into the saddle from where the ball end locks into the tailpiece. This will cause ugly tonal side effects. ... ... ... The Schaller 3D6, as you saw from the link you posted, can go either way. That was this one, the Schaller hardtail that can be strung either from the normal toploader place or by hooking the ball-ends under the baseplate. This new version is very hard to find a company that will sell it to you or a shop that will order it for you. I’ve been trying. It just occurred to me, could this new modification for stringing below the baseplate not be attributable to insufficient string break over the saddles when stringing in the conventional toploader manner? I have read a couple of comments criticising the original model for strings moving laterally under heavy playing. C1?
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 1, 2012 18:49:34 GMT -5
This new version is very hard to find a company that will sell it to you or a shop that will order it for you. I’ve been trying. Unfortunately, AllParts is the North American Distributor...and my feeling on AllParts are mixed. I have gone to Schaller directly in the past with mixed results as well. I'd go to the Schaller Contacts page: [a href=" schaller-electronic.com/hp153425/Contact.htm"] schaller-electronic.com/hp153425/Contact.htm[/a] and just e-mail all of their distributors and specialty dealers and see if you can scare up a friendly ear. I've been able to do this in the past by explaining that I'm a builder looking for parts to prototype guitars and potentially work it into an OEM deal. It's been a few years, but some resellers like OEMs as it's a phone call and a drop ship and they get their cut in the mail. I believe you're over thinking the issue. My guess is Schaller did this to increase market share by expanding the potential guitars that could utilize this bridge. Improperly installed or setup any bridge will return less then optimal results. This is not a new bridge design. This bridge has been used on guitars for quite some time. If the top load option was such an abysmal failure then Schaller would have discontinued it. I've had one of these on my bass for 20 years. I have a heavy hand on the bass and I've never popped a string, had one walk on me or had a saddle move. This bridge does require some forethought when installing and setting up. A 3mm and 4mm shim is available, and shimming the neck to accommodate the higher bridge altitude may be required. Having said that, this is still one of the easiest retrofit bridges I've seen. As I've said before this is the ONLY fixed tailpiece I have on my guitars. I've noticed on some forums that the ones carping the loudest are the ones who have the least knowledge in installing it. ERGO, driving with your eyes closed does not make Ford a dangerous vehicle by design. Misapplied is. And if you have access to a drill press you can just drill six holes in an older Schaller roller bridge and do your string through yourself. This is the spec drawing for a standard 3-D6: [a href=" guitar-bridge.com/download/C260e2afeX12a1e87b2d3X1630/TZ_GitarrenSteg_3_D6.pdf"] guitar-bridge.com/download/C260e2afeX12a1e87b2d3X1630/TZ_GitarrenSteg_3_D6.pdf[/a] Find a drill press and a good drill vise, locate and drill six holes from the bottom, Dremel the bottom burr, Dremel a breakover on the top into the roller and you're done. I've done this before and the entire process takes less then 30 minutes. It takes more time to pull the saddles and re-install them then it does to drill the holes and clean them up. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by simes on Feb 3, 2012 9:05:08 GMT -5
Great answer, as usual, C1. This bridge does require some forethought when installing and setting up. A 3mm and 4mm shim is available, and shimming the neck to accommodate the higher bridge altitude may be required. So, what's this shim business? Is it an additional optional steel plate to be placed under the bridge to add 3 or 4mm to the existing height? Or is the bridge available in two versions with different thickness baseplates?
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 3, 2012 10:52:23 GMT -5
So, what's this shim business? Is it an additional optional steel plate to be placed under the bridge to add 3 or 4mm to the existing height? Or is the bridge available in two versions with different thickness baseplates? You can see what's available here at [a href=" guitar-bridge.com/hp121987/Underlays-Shims.htm?ITServ=C7b289888X13543e0a52eXY3ae3"] guitar-bridge.com/hp121987/Underlays-Shims.htm?ITServ=C7b289888X13543e0a52eXY3ae3[/a] They have them for basses and guitars and you need to be specific when ordering. Most kits come with the 3mm shim, but eBay purchases tend to be just the bridge sans shim. They look like this: You'll notice they are keyed to lock into the bridge plate. Once you screw the bridge down to the guitar it stays aligned and adds significant weight to the bridge. Since it's not a solid shim it doesn't act as a tone suck. I find they articulate and sustain better with the shim, but it's not night and day. And a neck shim is just that. You may need to pitch the neck, similar to how a Les Paul works, to accommodate the higher bridge mounting. It's minimal, but usually necessary. Does that help? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by simes on Feb 3, 2012 13:58:29 GMT -5
So the shim comes with the bridge, has the same footprint as the bridge and is held in place by the bridge, right?
Presumably the bridge can be used without the shim, fretboard height and neck angle permitting.
It strikes me as a little strange that it isn't solid, that it reduces area of contact between bridge and body, when surely the advantage of a hardtail is that large baseplate tight against the wood ...
Why would being solid act as a tone suck?
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 3, 2012 15:10:54 GMT -5
So the shim comes with the bridge, has the same footprint as the bridge and is held in place by the bridge, right? Right. Yes. The shim is machined flat and with the three mounting screws it isn't going anywhere. A common misconception is that the larger hunk of brass you have in the bridge the more sustain and "tone" you're going to get out of it. Granted, cheap pot metal bridges suck tone by not transferring the string vibrations into the guitar\bass body, but a large honking piece of brass is not going to transmit all the string vibration into the body either. It's all about efficient transfer of energy, and a large piece of brass will actually absorb more then it transfers. It will also flavor the tone. Ever wonder why brass nuts fell out of favor after the 80's? This is why Tune-o-Matic bridges sustain so well. Listen to Gary Moore play Parisienne Walkways for a prime example. It provides a very efficient transmittal of string vibration. Make sense? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 5, 2012 9:27:23 GMT -5
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Post by simes on Feb 8, 2012 17:52:32 GMT -5
Damn ... missed it. Shipping to Spain could have been pricey, though.
I'm back to thinking more along the lines of the Schaller 455, to be honest.
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 8, 2012 18:38:46 GMT -5
The 455 is a nice bridge, more along the lines of a Tune-o-Matic, but still a nice piece of gear. It has a few incarnations, some with the wrap over tail or with the fine tuners attached. Both carry the 455 part number.
One thing to remember is that this bridge is set up for a 12" radius on the fretboard. I don't know what you've got now, but it can take some filing on the outside pairs of saddles to nail a 10" or 9-1/2" radius...and forget about an old 7-1/2" radius with this one.
And if you have a 14" or compound radius neck you'll be filing from the inside out.
Keep us posted on which way you go.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 12, 2012 9:49:41 GMT -5
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