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Post by newey on Dec 21, 2011 7:56:46 GMT -5
While browsing for something else, I ran across this guitar, which I guess I had seen before, but I had never bothered to read the sales blurb:  Epiphone SST StudioBut the reason this is posted in "pickups" is the following: As the above notes, Shadow makes these. They sell these for 140 EU: Shadow NanoflexSo, the questions are: - Is this "Nanoflex" pickup really different from a piezo, or is this just typical marketingspeak?
- If it's truly different, how does it work?
- Can it be DIY'd, like a piezo, using available pieces?
If this truly does what they claim, as far as avoiding the "harshness" of a piezo, I'm definitely interested . . . |
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 21, 2011 13:22:03 GMT -5
So, the questions are: - Is this "Nanoflex" pickup really different from a piezo, or is this just typical marketingspeak?.
Not 100% certain, but I think the transducer not piezo. - If it's truly different, how does it work?
I can think of a couple of possibilities for the element. But I'll wait a few days. Let others have some fun with the guessing game. - Can it be DIY'd, like a piezo, using available pieces?
Embedding the preamp on the base of the element structure would be beyond the scope of DIY. So in DIY form, you'd have a more traditional element / cable / preamp arrangement. As far as off-the shelf elements that could be put under the bridge saddle, I'm almost certain that would not be available. But larger versions of the same element technology are available for scientific applications. So maybe a large "patch" that could be sandwiched between the body and the bracing? This could be a great idea farm. Imagine different ways of converting motion or physical pressure into an electrical signal. |
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Post by JohnH on Dec 21, 2011 14:31:38 GMT -5
If they didnt say that it wasnt a piezo, I'd have assumed that it was one. I believe other makers do an under-saddle piezo cable in a similar way to shown there.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 21, 2011 16:44:44 GMT -5
Another way such a thing might work would be capacatively, as in a condenser microphone. A central core is insulated from an outer core, and compressed by the bridge, causing a change in capacitance between them due to vibrations transferred.
The home-brewed version could be an insulated wire surrounded by a metal foil. Both of those would go via a lead to a microphone preamp with phantom power. I’m fairly sure that would have to give a result, but getting a good result would depend on the right biasing arrangements and the electrical /dielectric and mechanical properties of the insulation around the core.
Another clue might be in the nam 'nano'. I wonder what hi tech nano materials there might be that could be applied to this?
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Post by 4real on Dec 21, 2011 17:16:36 GMT -5
You could do things magnetically with some steel on the moving top hovering above a magnetic pickup sensing that over the strings.
Otherwise, could just as easily be piezo film or some capacitive thing as john suggests....there are lots of ways one could get a sound out of a 'box'.
Sure there is hype, peizosare coming along and alternatives and mixes abound. I actually don't like too much 'top noise' myself, but others are taking that whole 'tap guitar' to another level and attach piezos all over the guitar.
The harshness of piezo's really relates to older tech I think, depends a lot on how such things are implemented and such. Nothing is going to work like a good guitar mic-ed I suspect, but I've heard some amazingly great amplified acoustics lately...there were several the other night that had a tremendous sound direct into a PA.
You are unlikely to get a great 'acoustic sound' out of an electric with piezo's as they react quite differently than a solidbody...
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My acoustic is an epiphone and this looks quite a good guitar...such guitars always seem odd without a soundhole don't they, like the variax without pickups on it, there always appears to be something visually missing in some way.
I'm considering a semi solid incarnation of my current project one day if all works out as planned, so good to see a few of these things about...someone should find one and give it a play!
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 21, 2011 19:25:23 GMT -5
Another way such a thing might work would be capacatively, as in a condenser microphone. A central core is insulated from an outer core, and compressed by the bridge, causing a change in capacitance between them due to vibrations transferred. Of the three types of element I imagined, I thought this was the second most likely. That doesn't make it any more or less likely to be what they did. Just my initial opinion. Not sure if a simple capacitor or maybe an electret. But I think of those as basically the same principle. The home-brewed version could be an insulated wire surrounded by a metal foil. Both of those would go via a lead to a microphone preamp with phantom power. I�m fairly sure that would have to give a result, but getting a good result would depend on the right biasing arrangements and the electrical /dielectric and mechanical properties of the insulation around the core. I think you almost have to have a plate structure. A coaxial structure has capacitance all the way around the central axis. When you squash the outer diameter flat, you get more capacitance as the top and bottom get closer together, while getting less as the sides move outward. The net result is not much change. Still, I see some sort of capacitor or electret as being a real possibility. Another clue might be in the nam 'nano'. I wonder what hi tech nano materials there might be that could be applied to this? My original thought on this was that "nano" was just a trendy term for small. But it might be a clue, suggesting nanometer structures. You could do things magnetically with some steel on the moving top hovering above a magnetic pickup sensing that over the strings. I'm pretty sure this is a bridge saddle device. I considered a magnetic device, but thought it seemed less likely. We have a lot of torque available at the bridge saddle, but the amplitude of movement is small. Magnetic devices need a fair bit of movement and making a thin, small diameter coil with lots of turns is a bit of a mechanical challenge. I like the idea of having a moving plate being magnetically sensed. But I think that would be more suited to the body where there is larger amplitude and less torque. I hinted at my best guess in the earlier post. I just realized that in addition to scientific applications, many people have this technology in their bathroom. |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 21, 2011 21:35:45 GMT -5
It seems they also make a pickup system for acoustic upright basses.   The only real technical reference is to twin foil transducers...like robotic strain sensors...and marine seismic sensor arrays...hmmm... Inquiring minds still want to know more... HTC1 |
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ztan
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by ztan on Jan 25, 2022 17:14:27 GMT -5
Necro thread revive.
>So, the questions are: > >Is this "Nanoflex" pickup really different from a piezo, or is this just typical marketingspeak? >If it's truly different, how does it work? >Can it be DIY'd, like a piezo, using available pieces?
My Shadow NanoFlex pickup developed an intermittent fault then died. I've removed the shrink wrap around the join between the transducer and the lead and can report the following:
I suspect the transducer is a piezo plastic film or film sandwich, but cannot verify. Capacitance of the transducer is around 170pF.
Between the transducer and the cable on a thin flexible pcb are a single 10M resistor in parallel and a SMD J-FET. The transducer is connected to gate and source, the drain connects to the tip of the connector and the source connects to the shield. On the preamp side, the tip reads around 6V with a 9K resistor in series with the drain, and the tip is capacitatively coupled to the rest of the preamp circuit.
Overall, looks very similar to the Tillman FET preamp circuit with a very very short high impedance loop between transducer and FET. I suspect it is all marketingspeak and if the length of the high impedance loop was so critically important, products brought to market by Fishman, Radial, Baggs, etc and all the very high impedance outboard piezo preamps would be noisy dead ducks.
With the 170pF capacitance and 10M resistance I'd expect a low corner frequency around 90Hz for the front end of the NanoFlex.
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Post by newey on Jan 25, 2022 19:29:56 GMT -5
ztan-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
Thanks for some definitive answers to this old question. I think you've confirmed at least that it is not terribly different from similar products. I haven't searched, but I'm not sure these things are even still available.
And, piezos have come even further in the decade since I posted that. I was listening to a guy play a nice piezo-equipped acoustic/electric at the local music store a few months ago. He was playing it through one of those 7-band equalizer pedals and was able to "dial in" a convincing acoustic sound.
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