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Post by 4real on Mar 20, 2012 8:03:22 GMT -5
Hi GN2ers
I am exploring an opportunity to perhaps do some guitar and music teaching for adults and thinking of taking a different kind of approach to things, it will develop if things come to pass, but for now here are some thoughts and would like a bit of input or comment...
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Ok...so, thinking about it, adults seem to get concepts ok, have listened to a lot of music, but the dexterity can be very frustrating.
I am also keen to encourage creativity first and not get bogged down too much and start off running and making some good sounds from the instrument.
Obviously a few basics are in order, particularly tuning...the proficiency is a little unknown but planning on doing them in small groups to be cost effective for all involved and because there is some travel involved on my part.
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Ok...so to start with, was thinking of this kind of things...two finger chords with guide fingers...
I wrote this in an email this morning and may as well copy and paste here...
I'd likely take a bit of a different approach for beginners and the traditional way of teaching guitar, especially in 'groups' and have a range of 'cheats' for some of thins sort of thing. I would think just getting some basic chords down is the aim perhaps, so nothing too formal. As an example, I use 'guide fingers' a bit and you can leave off a few things and get a nice sound doing something like this...
---0----0---0----0----------------------------------- ---3----3---3----3----------------------------------- ---2----0---0----0----------------------------------- ---0----X---0----X----------------------------------- ---------3---X----2--------------------------------- --------------3----0------------------------------- ..D.....C.....G...Em...
They sound good, the 3rd finger can anchor to the D note without moving an get the hang of moving a finger around and get results quicker. One could move on then to adding in the full D chord, etc. There are all kinds of chords that work with this approach...
---0---2----0--------------------------------------- ---2---3----0--------------------------------------- ---2---2----1--------------------------------------- ---2---0----2--------------------------------------- ---0---------2------------------------------------- --------------0----------------------------------- ...A...D......E
in the above which would work for any blues or three chord song, you use the first finger as a guide, the A chord uses the2nd finger above and the third below and is easier to squeeze them on the fits fret and get the open E. Leave the first finger on and move the others for the D chord, slide the first finger back a fret to get the E chord.
So...simple little things that get results. There are lots of things like that, even barre chords and moving around the neck can be introduced with this chord and sound...
---0----0----0-----0-----0---------------------------- ---1----1----8-----5-----10---------------------------- ---0----0----0-----0-----0---------------------------- ---3----5---10---7------12----------------------------- ---0----0---0-----0------0--------------------------- ------------------------------------------------
These kinds of things have a more 'modern' and floating sound, two finger chords that people can amuse themselves with, write or adapt to a song, make up rhythms and explore things and alittle less 'dry' than more traditional approaches to things, especially for adults who can 'get it' but are frustrated with getting their fingers moving. Besides, such sounds sound good and there are lots of things of than nature and is a big part of my chordal vocabulary. Gets them thinking out of the first position from the start and exploring the guitar for themselves.
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So, looking for similar things, cool ways to make a good sounds out of the instrument that can lead back to more conventional things and develop creativity and enthusiasm for playing the thing.
Exercises for things like above would be to combine these things with a rhythm and combination that appeals to them, perhaps write a song or riff, find a song they know in these chords.
I use a lot of these kinds of things in my playing anyway, if there are more experienced players in the group, they could perhaps experiment and find similar things to share with the group.
That these things have fancy names (largely sus 2 type sounds) really does not matter. Obviously one will be working back to making the full chords and more, but the idea is to make a good sound "now" if that makes sense.
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Anyway, any ideas or tricks one might share would be cool, perhaps additional ideas that help creativity or make a nice sound on the guitar but are super easy to do.
I'd like them to not just learn the open position as well and encourage exploration. I am also thinking of doing some scales but have them invent melodies from them rather than playing things up and down.
The end goal will be to have a basic chord vocab and perhaps be able to find notes and so be able to look up any basic pop song kind of thing on the net and adapt them to their abilities and to be able to improvise of make up some nice sounding but simple guitar things on their own.
Perhaps there are things that you have learned later on that you wish that you had been told about from the start or have an alternate opinion of this approach, perhaps suggest some alternatives.
The "job" comes from a community centre and the 'clients' are likely mums and the like as far as I can tell at this stage, but could be open to all comers.
There is an auxiliary idea that came from the coordinator for something of song-writing. This could be attended by both musicians or writers or just the interested.
The intention comes from the fact that while there are a lot of art and writing, photography and all that, there is little to nothing on offer on music. In a local survey of the service, there were a few people who asked for guitar so initially that will be the clientèle, but he wider intention is to bring music and music programs into the whole thing and to do a bit of cross pollination between the disparate arts and interests.
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So, any thoughts or comments appreciated or look at as an exercise, what cool sounds, songs and other things that will be pretty immediately accessible and fun to do for adults of any stage of ability and that will encourage exploring the instrument and creativity...
pete
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 20, 2012 9:28:19 GMT -5
I had a little play of those chords ...
They sound lovely but I found them weird to play. That's probably because I am a terrible guitarist ... lol!
Despite that, if that's what they start on, they're probably going to get a good head-start on those pretty sounds that can take ages to discover, adding in the more robust (and sometimes inappropriate) standard chord shapes later on.
I have always tried to introduce barre chords early whenever teaching guitar. I find that once the student has managed to get the grip-strength to intonate it properly, there is a vast array of shapes available without much work. Your technique seems to be able to short-cut that 'grip-strength' issue. Nice.
Sounds like a good approach to me. I'd be interested to hear how it goes...
Incidently, I sweet little jazzy, 2-chord jam-thing that I like to play around with may be useful to build a framework for your clients forming a melody with scales ... and it's so easy they can jam with each-other:
| --/ --/ --/ --/| --/ --/ --/ --/|
| --5 --- --- ---| --X --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --5 --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --5 --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --4 --- --- ---| | --X --- --- ---| --5 --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --X --- --- ---|
It's also really easy to divorce the chords from the rhythm quicker - meaning developing that groovy syncopation happens faster (potentially ...)
That's my little input ... have fun ^_^
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Post by JohnH on Mar 20, 2012 14:30:04 GMT -5
Sounds like a great idea. Im always looking for things that are easy to play but extend the sound beyond of the basic cowboy chords. For the slightly older folk, the Beatles 'Dear Prudence' plays well, and I can wing it with no more than three fingers and no full barre chords, but gets you moving right up the neck on the intro: www.e-chords.com/chords/the-beatles/dear-prudence
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Post by 4real on Mar 20, 2012 17:00:33 GMT -5
Thanks Yakk
Anything could happen once you find out the players and abilities, I get the impression they will be fairly novice, perhaps know some of the chords and be able to play a little, but often people are not taught the 'easy way' or where the 'nice' sounds are...or what their tastes run to either.
That kind of minor7 to IV9 chord can be a funky move, depends how much they know. Sure for jamming and such a great little vamp, but what 'song' would you play it in other than 'jamming' over it you know?
But f they can manage it perhaps
| --5 --- --- ---| --7 --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --7 --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --7 --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --7 --- --- ---| | --X --- --- ---| --x --- --- ---| | --5 --- --- ---| --7 --- --- ---|
gives you the 'moondance' kind of changes and some fun moves...take the same chords and move them chromatically up to the Dm7 and end the verse on something like this...
----10-------0---------------------- ----10-------0---------------------- ----10-------7---------------------- ----10-------6---------------------- -----x-------7-------------------- ----10-------0----------------------
This is simplified version of the 'hendrix' chord E7#9 one might normally play and kind of makes sense in a 'song'.
I am thinking if I were a mum at home with a baby and messing with my guitar practice I might not get the point of these kinds of 'vamps' while a song might be a motivator and introduce tools to learn more.
Plus, you are just sliding the shape about, not rearranging that barre...still that could come later. If any of them are into the blues, can do a nice version of 'the thrill is gone' with that shape too...as they could well be suffering sleep deprivation.
It's a good idea though to keep people thinking out of first position, or if have that some new things. I'm hoping fore things that would be a leveller in case there are some who know more than others...you know how it is, you can be a bit despondent if you are trying to learn from scratch in front of another who makes it look easy.
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I would like an opinion on this though...
Thumb over the top of the neck
This is traditionally contentious but you almost always see the professionals doing it, hendrix created a style on it practically and lots of great guitar players us it a lot.
Obviously for classical it isn't that practical (though I don't see Pat Methney worry about that) but that was something that really opened things up for me and a couple of decades to get around to doing. It can be good for dampening the E string for a start, but there are heap of great sounds and fills you can't do without it and I felt a bit cheated being told not to do it. Besides, play barre chords for four hours and you hand will go into spasms when you start out.
---0------0-----1----0----1----------- ---1------1-----1----1----1----------- ---0------2-----2----2----1-2---------- ---3------3-----3----3----1-3---------- ---x------x-----x----3----1-3---------- ---1------1-----1----1----1-----------
I was thinking of introducing if from that two finger sliding shape and evolving as above. add the low F with the thumb, add in the third on the g string, add the high root with a partial barre on the high E, add the fifth on the A string, add the full barre. It works on G, A, C etc so if the first fret is too much to start with, it can be moved up a fair way while building strength without a capo.
One is very likely to want to play an F chord after all, but in a lot of things that will be in a song in C so that open G and E will tend to work for strumming.
Lets not forget that right hand, any thoughts on that?
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Games
Find the note game. I used to play thins kind of game with myself to learn the notes of the fretboard and memorise them though no one taught me as such.
Basically, demo how the note E can be found all over the guitar, in teaching to tune for instance show how they are heard as the same note even if in different octaves. Show how the 12th fret low e, 7th A string and 2nd D string are all the same note.
Now...set a task to find an be able to play every E note one can find.
If a small group of students play a 'round robin' to find those E notes and not repeat ones that others have played in that round say. Play in 'time' say to a metronome and have a challenge to play at increasing 'speed'. This forces one to think E note here, now...find another...E note.
Repeat this every lesson at intervals with different notes perhaps.
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Any other 'games' one might play that will help things like that. Or in fact finger strength and such?
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The 'scale' thing is another aspect I'd like them to get a bit earlier than later, or if a little experience understand that kind of thing.
Off the top of my head, this sounds nice and would be a valuable alternating picking thing that most won't have come across...at least for a while...cascades...harp technique...chimes...call it what you like...
------0--------------------------- --11----------0--------------------- ---------12-----------0------------- -----------------12-----------0----- --------------------------12-----------0~~- ----------------------------------12-------- Am...
-------0-------------------------- ----8--------0--------------------- ----------7---------0-------------- -----------------7----------0------ ------------------------7-------------- --------------------------------0~~~~- Em....
As I say, sounds pretty, let all the notes ring and one can build up a lot of speed alternating with a pick or using the fingers or hybrid picking too. There are a few of these such moves to find.
An open Am7 chord and Em7 chord makes a nice accompaniment as a single 'strum' and other participants can play that and as before, go in a round robin kind of thing where each one does that 'riff' alternating with the chords for a bit.
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Here's another 'chord thing' I just thought of...kind of a jazzy (soft) classic I-vi-IV-V7 sequence
---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---0---1---1--0---------------------- ---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---2---2---3--3---------------------- ---3---0---x--x---------------------- ------------1--3------------------- ...C..Am...F..G...
There are millions of songs that use this progression, in this version there is always one constant finger left over from the previous chord. The F would need to be played with the thumb and that F on the d string, I play with the pinky intellectually, but probably a hang over from the 'barre chord' approach, 3rd finger is probably better then leave it there and play the low G with the second, that leaves the first finger to play the D string 2nd fret and 'guide' the fingers back to the C(maj7).
This makes a very nice 'stand by me' for instance, or as I say, a million other tunes. In that tune, 2 bars of each go back to the C and then G again and around for as long as one likes. There re some cool moving bass lines one can add stepping down to the A from C, down the G to open low E to F, then E, F G...if they think they are clever LOL!
There are some deeper lessons in this kind of thing as well, this is a very good example of good voice leading ideas and seeing the chords and 'progressions' not as 'blocks' of shapes but individual notes that evolve from one to another.
I'd like to get some of these ideas in mind from the start or introduce these ideas early, or correct some of the traditional thinking.
As 'rock' guitar player, once we get the barre chord thing down (or worse, power chords), there is a tendency to just play things by shifting them in 'blocks' up and down the neck or at least see things as quite disjointed unrelated chords. It works to a degree, however...
The deeper reason why these progressions exist is that they naturally evolve, some notes stay between chords, others move.
Naturally one would go from this kind of thing to more conventional C-Am-F-G things...or perhaps alternating between the open B and C notes on every chord is a nice 'riff and saves having to make the whole C chord shape and stuffing up the sequence.
You know how it is, you can play the chords fine, but the changes are the hard part and so people cringe with every change no matter how well you can play each 'shape' has no 'flow' and music in it. I am thinking this kind of way to alleviate that and make some cool sounds...and to think creatively within the limitations and experience.
Notice that I have not mentioned any of the theory or 'names' other than C chord. Would it help to know that that G chord has a seventh and and 6th in it, or the F was a Major7sus2...I suspect not LOL.
The idea is to be making cool sounds 'now' that can evolve back to more conventional ones, after all this kind of open string trick only really works in some keys like C.
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I probably need to update things a little and would be asking people for a favourite band or song they like.
Coldplay for instance had a hit with 'clocks and is really just appreciating D-Am Am-Em for most of the tune. One could easily play it with less challenging 2 finger grips and sound quite nice (Dsus2-Am7 Am7-Em) and add variations, could attempt arpeggiating the chords, adding in that F# and A notes and such, but at least get to playing something passable pretty quick (unless I am far over estimating beginning guitar, been a few years).
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I have this idea that once one gets the 'flow' thing a bit, one can play with the right hand rhythm bits and not everything is concentrated in the left hand moves and all disjointed.
Besides, it might be a bit of sexism on my part, but there tends to be a different motivation between how women view these things to men. As far as I can gather, all the people who have expressed an interest are women!
So, as a general observation, they tend to want 'songs' as an observation and far less impressed with the ability to run around the pentatonic scale at lightning speed and all that noodling. They want to hear melody and tunes you know, LOL. Not that women might not want to 'rock out' we will see, but that has been my experience when one asks me to 'play something'...what is the experience of others?
Of course, if I am wrong, we can learn a bunch of rock riffs like 'whole lotta love' and the like. I am sure there will be a bit of that thrown in there along the way.
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For the scales side of thing, also good for finger independence, strength and stretching...I tend to think often in one octave 'cells'.
Typical of this and a good way to start iw with C major pentatonic from the 5th fret...
-----------------------5--(7)---8-------- ---------5--(6)---8------------------- ---5--7---------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- adding the notes between to make the major scale once the pentatonic is more in control. Perhaps singing the note names as one does it.
The point out the minor equivilent...so Am...starting on a different note...
-------------------------------5--------- -----------------5--(6)---8------------------- ------(4)-5--7---------------------------- ----7----------------------------- --------------------------------- ---------------------------------
Then setting the task as with the 'note' thing to find the same notes n other places for the next week as well. How many places can one find it, different octaves, etc.
This forces learning the fretboard a bit too and if you sing a long and/or really thinking of the notes being played rather than a 'box' mind set, you are more likely to be playing music with intention if that makes sense, less just going through the 'motions'. It is a good thing to do too if secretly an inspiring singer as well, so that might be an interesting thing.
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Playing this kind of thing opens up playing melodies against that 'stand by me' sequence say, accompanied by others perhaps. So not just playing the scale, but seeing teh music in it, hearing the chord tones and all that.
Even things that might seem esoteric like that cascade thing works really well in this kind of thing, here's a little 'turnaround' I ust intellectually played with that....
-----0--------------------0-------- ---6------0---------------0--------- --------5-------0---------0--------- -------------7--------0---3--------- -------------------7------x-------- --------------------------3~------- C..............................G7
-------0----------------0--------- ---s6--------0----------0------------ ----------5--------0----5----------- ----------------7-------5---------- ------------------------1--------- --------------------------------- G7..........................C
That's a little 'over the top' perhaps, but the simple one octave 'cell' of notes is plenty, a lot of pop vocal songs are pretty much within an octave and restricting notes like that can force one to think of different sequences of notes, phrases that end or start on chord tones, melodies rather than 'licks' and becoming creative with it.
Once they have a 'cell' hopefully they will find other places to play them and in time they will naturally run together wehn they need still more notes.
I appreciate the 'caged' thing and all that, but I still think in terms of 'cells' that all link together rather than playing in a 'box' or 'position'. It is not really how I learned though, back then it was of course the old 'blues box' but it was hard to see the fretboard as more of a whole and interlocking little 'cells' like this.
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So, tell me if some of this is helpful or makes sense or are there some fundamentals that this misses out on. In the end, of course the aim is to be able to play everything, not just simplified chords, but as I say, trying to get the music and creativity going rather than going through too much of the awkward times.
I am thinking a group 'session' might go for an hour, provide some tools to play together at other times (bit if peer pressure there) and that they will learn from each other and show each other some 'cool' alternative way to play the notes of say the c major scale.
thanks for being a bit of a brainstorming forum LOL!
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 20, 2012 17:52:52 GMT -5
Works for me. In fact, when I first started out there was so much I could not do because I had no idea you were even allowed to to this. Give them the option - will feel good for some, bad for others.
I think you've got a really good approach there. Perhaps the biggest thing is going to be ascertaining where they are in terms of dexterity - every student is an individual and that will make the group thing difficult. It may be a good idea to get the class to pair off and do activities in pairs rather than in front of the group - less pressure and more comfort. You don't want to have anyone feeling like they're a fool because they can't do something as easy as someone else.
The only finger-strength stuff I know is that boring thing you do when you work in frets, semitone by semitone ...
|----------------------------------------1-2-3-4-| |--------------------------------1-2-3-4---------| |------------------------1-2-3-4-----------------| |----------------1-2-3-4-------------------------| |--------1-2-3-4---------------------------------| |-1-2-3-4----------------------------------------|
Etc ...
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Post by newey on Mar 20, 2012 18:08:58 GMT -5
Yes, my thought is to introduce it as quickly as possible. Ban flatpicks at first. I say this as someone who struggles to this day with any sort of right-hand technique (at least, with any that can't be done with a flatpick ). And I'm still taking lessons and still learning, but I feel that not being taught any sort of finger-picking from the start has hindered my progress over the years. Even if it's just a thumb-and-forefinger, plucking-in-unison type of thing, I think getting the idea of independent finger action with the right hand is critical. It's easy to think: "Well, that's introducing too much at once, just going to confuse the poor students", but I think getting the right hand into use, even if in a simple way, is more valuable than the risk of increasing the students' frustration. Just my 2 cents, anyway- that's the one major critique I have of all the lessons I've had over the years. I believe a part of my struggle with finger techniques is a result of not being thrown into the deep end on that early enough.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 20, 2012 20:47:18 GMT -5
I believe a part of my struggle with finger techniques is a result of not being thrown into the deep end on that early enough. Maybe part. But another part could be lack of self-motivation. Yes, it makes more sense to pay those dues when you're first starting. But if you want it badly enough, you'll stop comparing your (lack of) proficiency fingerpicking to what you're already capable of with a plectrum. The future starts NOW. You think a pick should be banned for beginners? Fine. NO PICK FOR YOU! Consider yourself a beginner. Each and every time you pick up a guitar for the next year, NO PICK for the first hour. Not even during tuning. Practice slowly and deliberately with your fingers. So what if it sounds like s**t compared to what you can do with a pick. As long you make progress, that will change. Feel free to reward yourself with some pick time after you pay your dues during the first hour each session. But not until. Discipline is.
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Post by newey on Mar 20, 2012 21:50:27 GMT -5
Already doing that, pretty much, although not for a full hour. And you're right, there's no substitute for sticking to it.
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Post by 4real on Mar 20, 2012 22:14:56 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the valuable input there....and some interesting things there.
I in fact have not touched a ick for over a year and only picked it p for this. I note that Knophler always carries a pick in his pocket.
There is a lot that 'requires' a pick too...I banned it for me to force a radical different approach for my own goals and direction, I'd certainly play with a pick if the music demanded it. In the last decade I have moved more towards a hybrid style and have always had some finger picking in my bag....in my era, the goal was always to play 'stairway to heaven' in the first year!
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So, depends on their goals. I would demonstrate what one can do with things like the that chord stuff, how one could arpeggiate things and such.
Some things like that 'cascade' string skipping thing is even faster with a hybrid or finger picking things, anywhere there is string skipping this is generally true.
I think introduce the concept and show what is possible and get them to try and follow what they want to do, you know.
I certainly wouldn't be getting all soup Nazi on them. This is supposed to be fun and get some nice results fast, not be frustrating. coordinating one had is hard enough, and for real beginners, just holding and controlling a pick is hard enough.
What my intention is with this approach is to minimize the left hand pain and angst and dexterity with some nice sounds and make some real music.
I would anticipate demoing all kinds of ways to play something like that sequence and for them to come back in a week and show me what they can do, if it is 4 to a bar all down strokes, fine freddy green made a career from that. If they can arpeggiate the chords and play 'when a man loves a women' that's all good. If there is someone really got this stuff down, I want to hear fills between each chords, damping and even more rhythm techniques if they are that great. Whatever sounds good and gets the job done you know.
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So yeah, the purpose of making the left hand a bit easier and get the changes happening is in large part so we can explore the right hand and encourage people to learn for and from themselves and be empowered by the process, not so much 'taught' and judged by me or others. It should be fun and cooperative to work really.
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In fact, what I am likely to bill this as is 'creative guitar' and hence this approach. We are not working with kids and women do have a tendency not to be so competitive and such (as bitchy as they some times get with each other). If people are coming in whating to do that later in life, I think they are looking to work out how to be creative and expressive and not necessarily to play faster or 'better'.
Besides, it can be good to be motivated by a performance thing. If you know that not just your teacher will know you didn't make an effort during the week, but your peers...you will do it!
In fact, for the first year or so, this is how I learned.
Plus there is the economics, I can't afford private guitar lessons and at the start, not sure if it is justified. If there are specific goals and got a handle on thins, well I could do private lessons if they have the money and motivation. But, this is designed to be fun and instructive and creative and motivating and cost effective.
How much is a private lesson anyway? How much is my time, thought and preparation worth? How much can people reasonably afford in some tiny town and with a baby to feed, etc. They participate in a community centre, part of that is to meet people and make friends in the community, kind of defeats the mission if you separate them and charge an arm and leg.
What I am thinking is perhaps $15 each, pay for the room and facilities and promotion and all that, give say 4 people at a time. That is $60 for the hour less expense and considerable travel time and gas...but better than what, doing the same for one person privately for what, #30 a time only to have them drop out or not turn up and all that.
It is all kind of self perpetuating as well, these people hang out and have coffee and ask about the things they are doing. I would like to think they can go, it is so much fun, met these new friends, pete is lovely and I am learning so much...check this out (plays a nice sounding simple tune)...you should really do it! And, it is so cheap.
Next thing you know, I got two groups for the same travel and a town full of budding guitar players keen to join up.
If playing in front of others learning, wait till they hear the suggestion that they are expected to do a little performance for the community centres free coffee and cake things LOL. Then they will practice I am sure and it will work out fine and really boost confidence if they do it.
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In fact, in my conversation with the centre management, they are talking perhaps about a song writing 'lecture' which might draw in the writers and poets and people just interested along with musicians.
There are a few other ideas that may well happen in the fullness of time. It helps that the coordinator/manager has got herself a guitar off ebay and on side and enthusiastic. After all, she put the add out, I did not approach them!
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That finger chromatic things has always bothered me. I'm sure we have all done that kind of thing and there is a purpose, but it is not 'music' really is it, not even the chromatic scale. It completely ignores the tuning around hte b string and turns the brain off...there is perhaps a place for it, but this is a lot better..the real chromatic scale...
|----------------------------------------1-2-3-4-| |--------------------------------1-2-3-4---------| |------------------------1-2-3-4-----------------| |----------------1-2-3-4-------------------------| |--------1-2-3-4---------------------------------| |-1-2-3-4----------------------------------------|
Do this...
------------------------------------------------------1-2-3-4-5---- --------------------------------------------2-3-4-5---------------- ----------------------------------2-3-4-5-------------------------- ------------------------3-4-5-6------------------------------------ --------------4-5-6-7---------------------------------------------- ----5-6-7-8--------------------------------------------------------
I used to call these kinds of things 'spider scales' because of the way they 'crawl about the neck'. you can even run back from that high A, 4 frets at a time but a fret higher...if you think about it.
You get the workout, but watching that E string and playing every note, not just a 'pattern' on the fretboard but engaging the brain.
You also don't want to do too much running sequentially through scales either, again the brain and creativity goes off and you are just going through the motions. There is some benefit, but 'melodic patterns' that repeat throughout is more useful and musical and harder to do excuse you have to 'think' you know. Keeps you humble but musical, if a bit 'slower'.
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With that 'scale cell' thing for instance, I want them to come back not just able to play it up and down for an octave, even don't mind so much if they neglect the pinky to start with, but what In would like them to be able to do is here the major scale and from that discover the melodies in there and perhpa how they relate to the chords.
There are plenty of (dare I say it) 'guys' that can run around scales and such, learn lead before they can play decent rhythm guitar or a song.....but, ask people that have played most of their life to play, let alone create, an interesting melody, really well executed and expressive like...say hank marvin...and they are completely stumbling.
Most people are not hearing in their head and playing with intention and that is hard to do, they run patterns and riffs and licks without a thought. Perhaps they get a sense of phrasing along the way, know what i mean? I see it in myself quite often.
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As I say, I'd be billing this as 'creative guitar' and even if people can play, they will be challenged and open up to some ideas that they unlikely will have come across before. If people already own guitars, as they must do, they are likely to have something there. Even though I am making things simpler and easier, it actually is something they might not have come across before and sound good and give them ideas. In part, I am attempting to get you guys to look back and see a different approach.
Eventually I hope they will have enough to be able to play a song, play a bit of a melody and create music of their own before they 'leave' and have fun and keen to continue learning on their own. Buy a methoid book and work their way through it if keen to learn more of that kind of thing.
I am not against things like 'caged' you understand, it is all good and a system that makes sense in many ways. However, it is hard to break out of later and see beyond the boxes.
I suspect the biggest rewards will be if they can play something simple but impressively you know. One could get all fancy and intimidating with the 'theory' of why these chords sound as they do, perhaps we will...see this is a major 7, an Am7, an Fmaj7sus2 and a G7/6 or 13th chord...look see, you are playing jazz!
But really, the reason for that approach is to make it easy, to show the voice leading in progressions, to make it smooth and easy, to impress friends and family...and to leave the left hand to do that and concentrate on the right a bit more.
It will wind it's way back to more conventional chords eventually, but if people already know those, well this will be something new and an interesting sound. Once they get that idea they will hopefully not see the chords so much as 'shapes' but a collection of notes and that one can be 'creative' with these sounds and ideas.
I've played 35+ years now, and I find it hard to believe that all these great simple things have been on the guitar and I'd spent so much of that time restricting myself to the 'right way' over finding my own way.
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So, ok...thanks for all that and keep up the ideas as clearly they make me think of things as well, hard to work in a vacuum. Will have to see about the fingerpicking thing.
If a long term picker and interested in moving towards finger picking type things, I'd suggest exploring that kind of country hybrid picking approach to start getting the hang of those extra picks in your fingers.
I was surprised that I picked up the pick again yesterday and I'm faster than I remembered myself to be. Real independent finger picking (as opposed to travis or alternating types of roll patterns) is the most challenging style and I am certainly having trouble with it. I did the pick Nazi thing to myself to force me to completely change to a style that negates both 'patterns' and even chord 'shapes' but individual lines of melody and bass things, but there are so many things that you can only do with a pick.
If you want it, there is nothing one can do but stick at it and ride through the frustration, even after a year, I am still waiting for things to truly 'click' in that regard, but I suspect it is not the finger dexterity but the ability to hear and think in terms of multiple parts at once.
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Thanks again...I suppose one could flip the question to ask are there things that you have learned that your really value being told about?
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Post by sumgai on Mar 20, 2012 22:25:24 GMT -5
Well, if I had to pick a substitute, I'd drop the guitar for that first hour, and play nothing but bass. Not bass patterns on the six-string, but a real, live, honest-to-Gawd bass. Get a teacher who does nothing but bass, and "play" beginner with her/him - that'll set you to using your finners without even thinking about it! ;D
Do that for a year, then go back to guitar. Take notes along the way, record some things, maybe even video them, then review your progress over the year. Report back her next ChriskDay......
HTH
sumgai
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Post by 4real on Mar 20, 2012 22:54:36 GMT -5
Sounds like a great idea. Im always looking for things that are easy to play but extend the sound beyond of the basic cowboy chords. For the slightly older folk, the Beatles 'Dear Prudence' plays well, and I can wing it with no more than three fingers and no full barre chords, but gets you moving right up the neck on the intro: www.e-chords.com/chords/the-beatles/dear-prudenceAh, I mised this post, thanks john. Yes, dear prudence is a good example, most people do have trouble reaching back to that D/Bb but a good exercise and in fact played with the sus2 chords unlike the bland "D" chords quoted. If you play it with the F# in it, the Bb will sound wrong because it is an implied minor (check out the melody of the line "so are you" over it)...relates to the beatles fondness for the parallel minor things, kind of what is discussed in the mIV thread). The sus2 allow the melody to go it's own way without clashing there. It is certainly a good one though especially if people have a bit of facility and to look at how people really use these kinds of 'chords' and not be a slave to frequently wrong internet chord charts and standard chord forms. If they can do it, then a great one to bring in appegiation and finger picking type things if they are that way inclined. I don't think there is any beatles song that people don't know and love is there. There are plenty that are a little hard to play though, I am constantly astounded at how creative they were and at such a young age and with plenty of distractions of fame and career going on. I really don't wee them having the time or inclination to be running symmetrical finger exercises and that is part of the point of what I am attempting to get to and why this 'method' is new...it is about opening the doors to being free to explore and come up with something as good as 'dear prudence' and not be sucked into that whole guitar thing, it hat makes sense. You really don't get quite that same perspective on other instruments and players I've not found. Hendrix would sound completely different if he thought that playing with the thumb over was 'wrong' and corrected it. Knophlers and becks fingerpicking is extremely unorthodox and in some ways 'limited' and the beatles, they didn't think I am sure that they needed to play things 'right' but to be creative and recognise that sound 'good' and work with it and find the treasure there, you know? need more of that attitude I suspect and my role in this is to try and open those doors, or at least that is the underlying aim. ... Not sure about that intro thing though....sounds a bit jazzy I guess, nothing like I remember it... Picking up the guitar, I improvised this though that sounds more like it... --------5--------3-------3-------1p0----0----------------------------- -----7--------5--------3-------3------3-------------------------- --7--------5---------4------3-------------------------------- --0--------0---------0------0-------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- Sounds more like the harpsichord thing as I remember it, has that constant B ground bass with the D-C-B-Bb thing in it and the D minor touches on the last chord contrasting with the D major of the opening chords which is the essence of the song when the melody is included. There is not a hint of that Bb in the intro on that page nor a hint of the melody..not sure what they were thinking there. I naturally ended up playing this fingerstyle though I've always played this hybrid or with a pick and this would be a great song to work on for getting into fingerstyle including that melodic aspect though. If people can play that Bb/D)sus2) move, then for sure it is a fantastic example and certainly one that illustrates the point I am trying to get across and what is perhaps 'really going on. This is another tune that works with voice leadings, especially when done as in this intro, you can see how things evolve, some notes stay the same, others move and so the change from the D minor (Bb like chord) sound natural and right even while seemingly 'unusual'. You see that a lot in beginning song writers, often they have just enough training to know that there are chords that are right within a key, but not enough to think of these twists or the freedom and intuition to explore that creativity. The object of any of this would be to say, there is not necessarily right and wrong, there is sounding good and not and sounding creative even if simple and not better cause it's hard! Thanks for that...this has been very helpful in refining ideas and coming up with more, I am going in a little blind..might not even happen of course, but got a good feeling for a trial run.
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Post by 4real on Mar 20, 2012 23:04:44 GMT -5
Well, if I had to pick a substitute, I'd drop the guitar for that first hour, and play nothing but bass. Not bass patterns on the six-string, but a real, live, honest-to-Gawd bass. Get a teacher who does nothing but bass, and "play" beginner with her/him - that'll set you to using your finners without even thinking about it! ;D Do that for a year, then go back to guitar. Take notes along the way, record some things, maybe even video them, then review your progress over the year. Report back her next ChriskDay...... HTH sumgai LOL...sounds like a bad plan, bass finger style is quite a bit different from the guitar...although there is some similarity to the classical guitar rest stroke. Remember that perhaps the greatest bass player was james jamerson, played with the one finger "hook" and his bass masterpiece "whats going on" lying half past out on his back in the studio! Perhaps a bit of flamenco might be more the go. Classical guitar will definitely show one the discipline and 'method' if that is what one is trying to achieve in that. Bass is largely a melodic and rhythmic instrument, it serves a different function to the guitar so while i love the bass and try and incorporate some of it, even have the best of JJ to marvel at the lines there, they are a compliment for the guitar, not the guitar itself. If looking for variety and arpeggiating chords say as opposed to just strumming things, I look to a lot of that soul things like cropper. Depends where you want to take it. Most people in the style I am attempting seem to use a thumb pick, but I have never got on too well with them, but gives you the best of both worlds if you can get along with it!
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 20, 2012 23:18:04 GMT -5
Well, after 30+ years playing with the three fingers on the right hand on the bass, I'm here to tell you that playing the bass with your fingers ain't the same as playing the guitar with your fingers. Muscle memory is a b h, and string spacing is radically different between the two instruments. I tried to adopt the "guitar" position of the right hand, but within minutes I'd be unconsciously moving back to the "bass" hand position...and missing strings like a madman. At that point I just made the decision to work on guitar with a pick and bass with my fingers. After 6 months I can feel the improvement in my right hand picking technique. I also acquired a wide assortment of picks and find that each one is good for a certain type of attack, either single note or chords, and each one seems to influence how I play and what I play. What I do is the aforementioned 1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1 across, up and down the fretboard. Then 1-2-4-4-3-1...then 1-3-2-4-4-2-3-1...then 3-4-2-1-4-3-1-2...etc, etc, Ad nauseam... I do this every day for 30-60 minutes, along with chords and scales. Anything that will improve my left hand and right hand coordination. Unlike most people, it seems, I have not worked on one complete song on the guitar since I started 6 months ago. My intentions have all centered around developing muscle memory and left\right hand coordination with the pick on the guitar. Probably not much help, but for me I want to be able to hit the note I want, when I want it as consistently as I can. I went through a similar phase 30 years ago on the bass. For two years all I did was finger exercises and scales and string skipping. I moved to basic patterns, double stops, 3 note chords. By the time I got around to actually learning a song it was second nature moving along the fretboard. This probably strikes most of you as a study in tedium...and it can be. It's sort of like musical weight lifting. To me, any other approach is like learning to fly on the quick by skipping those pesky take off and landing parts...but hey, that just me... I understand the natural desire to jump right into some cowboy chords and play songs people can recognize. For the casual player this is probably the best way to go. No sense putting them to sleep during the first lesson... And keep posting your lesson plans. I'm too broke to pay for a teacher... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Mar 21, 2012 3:18:32 GMT -5
Thanks C1
I can appreciate your approach and I think it is valid, Everyone has a different approach and background and ambitions, what ever get you there you know. I would try taking the 1234 symmetrical pattern and do the similar chromatic thing above though...
------------------------------------------------------1-2-3-4-5---- --------------------------------------------2-3-4-5---------------- ----------------------------------2-3-4-5-------------------------- ------------------------3-4-5-6------------------------------------ --------------4-5-6-7---------------------------------------------- ----5-6-7-8--------------------------------------------------------
it is similar but subtly different. It reinforces that pesky B string tuning thing and position shifting and is more of a 'musical' thing that just a 'pattern' so engages the brain a little more. It might not be conscious but in the future you will get a feeling or inner knowledge that a note you want to play a semitone above or below is a certain distance on a different string. There are some things like the chromatic scale that doesn't work so well in caged so this is a good complement I think.
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I appreciate the help brainstorming these ideas. I am not sure quite what to expect and will have to 'wing it' quite a bit I am sure. I imagine there will be a few questions that need to be asked, find out what they know and what they want to achieve and all that.
But, I am taking this kind of left field approach to cater for a mixed group and to foster some creativity.
It was an interesting set of circumstances and coincidences that led to this, just a bit of serendipity and who knows if it will come to pass and all that, but it is looking very promising at this stage. I remarked at the camera club recently that there was a curious lack of anything musical but quite a lot around in terms of art and photography, even sculpture, writing and poetry and outlets to publish and art shows and all of that.
They run courses in landcare, computers, arts and crafts and wellbeing. In the arts, 4 courses all to do with painting an drawing and a range of costs from $3 a session to $13 or $104 for 8 sessions in advance (also $13) but such courses are likely to attract and allow for much bigger groups.
And it is a small town and surrounds, how many 'guitar players' are there or are interested remains to be seen...it just might not work out. Certainly it needs to have a bit of a different angle and to run in small groups I think to be successful and I think the expectation would be, and I think it is reasonable, that they see some tangible results and knowledge.
So, this is the pitch I've given, small groups, minimise cost, tangible results, wide skill range. There is also the social cohesion angle and breaking new ground with the music options as doing some research there really isn't anything much on offer anywhere. If there were, I suspect I might be going perhaps! There are private music teachers, but they are far between and a bit hit and miss and not sure that would meet the criteria. Perhaps there isn't because it simply does not work, hard to tell!
So, putting a lateral hat on this, this is what I came up with. It is a little influenced by things like fripp's "guitarcraft" approach or "zen guitar" and kind of looking at the creative 'consider these ideas' approach to things. And a work in progress, but just trying to work out a general direction and see how it goes. It could be that some people already can play a bit, but this might point to a different angle on things. There will be some experience gained in working with others and making music with people that may well have less skills but still can work out and have fun.
I suppose I can assume that if people own a guitar, they know something and a little dexterity, if so things will be a bit easier for them perhaps and things move faster. I think I have a fair degree of certainty there are no aspiring shredders amongst them some how!
These kinds of things though are still valid and I explore them constantly myself. How can I get more with less, how can I play something that sounds good, even impressive, but not so technically difficult that there is a high degree of probability I will screw it up, how can I wing it as in that into to dear prudence there that is passable and took a couple of minutes. What can I offer that they could not learn for themselves off the net or a book.
Well, this is as best I can think of at this stage and no doubt will have to be adaptable. There are plenty of players that have the 'chops' but can't write a simple tune or when slowed down don't have the technical execution to carry it off or the phrasing to make it interesting, all flash and licks, no soul!
The purpose of these things are not just that they are easy and so inclusive, but they are spring boards for other ideas...and if someone has more dexterity, I'd be expecting them not to come in an play what they know and learned by rote, but to do more with them from the creativity angle.
It is not as radical as robert fripps expensive courses, the first thing he does is randomly tune everyone's guitars so they are forced out of patterns and really listen and find their way.
Something like 'zen guitar' takes a martial arts analogy, it looks at the smallest details and such, making every note important and intentional and great, not just blow through things. As well as other stuff along those lines.
The idea here is to be open to possibilities and being creative as opposed to the technical stuff and theory. It would be a lot easier to do that kind of thing, but that means slow progress and a slog as most of us know.
Regardless of ability, I'd like them to get at least some 'ah ha' moments and the ability to explore and find more things of their own.
I see that there are several singing groups in their program, 'sing alongs' mainly, but there may well be potential people there that might like to learn to accompany themselves. There may well be some people interested in song writing too from the active writing community.
The coordinator is keen to bring music into the program and this idea is a bit of an experiment, but I would really like it to work as it is a different angle and works out well in terms of cost and results I think without being intimidating and make new friendships and all that.
If it does work, word will get around perhaps and I can do other towns and develop things more there, so expecting a lot of work on my part, not just turn up and whip out a 'mel bay method' and open at page one LOL.
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Perhaps my personal "ah-ha' moment of late is this kind of 'fingering' in a C chord...
------0-------------------------------------------- ------3-------------------------------------------- ------5-------------------------------------------- ------5-------------------------------------------- ------3-------------------------------------------- -----(3)---------------------------------------------
It does not perhaps seem like much, but it holds a lot of gems in it for fingerstyle though sounds quite nice as a 'chord'. It is amazing how many melodies that I've found in those clusters in the high strings...
You play the low E and A strings with the thumb. You can use the G optionally as an alternating root. fifth thing perhaps, even lift it to get an E (the third of C) in the bass, perhaps as a leading tone into the F (IV) chord.
You can lift the thumb completely and you have an A minor thing with similar high end melodic potential and again, the open E in the bass for root 5th movement if needed.
The melodic potential is that with playing with the thumb like this, you are able to lift the first finger on the b string or bend it over or move it to the high e string G note on the 3rd fret. So, what you can access melodically are the notes B,C,D,E,G and many of these can 'ring together' to make a nice 'texture' to things. So many tunes one can find the melody in this.
I use it for instance in an arrangement I am trying out for Bob Marleys' 'is this love' which has the chord sequence Em....C, G, D/F#, Em.
On the c chord I often this 'fits well' to bring out the bass line and the melody...
----------------------0------------------------------------------------------ -----1------------3------3--------0--0-3-0--3-s-5----------0------------- -------0-------5----------------0----2----2--2-s-4----------0-------------- ---------2 s-5----------------0--------------------------0-2---2---0-2------ -----3--------------------------------------------------2----------2---------- --------------------------3-----------2-------0---------------------------0---
Hope this is not too much of a mess, but shows how one has to thingk outside conventional 'shapes' and patterns. It starts as a C chord but sides into this 'cluster chord' with the bass line which spells out C-E-G or the triad and then falls back neatly to the thumb on the G chord and a single fretted string, then thumb back for the F#/D chord, a sliding 4th interval for the phrase "love ya" and into the signature riff. In the same song but may others, this kind of thing...
----(0)---------------------------------------------- ----3------3---0--0----------------------------------- ----0------5---0--5----------------------------------- ----4------4---4--4----------------------------------- ----2------2---2--2--2-0-------------------------------- ---------------------------2-0----------------------
can be used for the verse with a bunch of melody notes and different bases as at the end. The verses is Bm to Am. But in reality, this 'shape' has a great sound and can be used to imply all kinds of chords, Em, G, Asus, Dadd4, all kinds of things. It has a distinctive mysterious sound from the lower F# and G notes next to each other.
So, a little advanced and perhaps of most use in this 'solo' style of play and something I've not seen many others use that much. It makes you think of other options though and ways of playing things which the traditional approaches of things you will avoid I suspect.
But, when you consider the melodic content that works with it, it makes perfect 'sense' to that that amazing dissonance of that 4th chord with the C and B notes rubbing together and a tritone F# to C immediately below. his is not something one will find in a 'chord dictionary' but in this kind of thing, one has to relearn to think in a more flowing way instead of blocks of chords and such things are a natural consequence of most melodies and chords.
Just as in the 'dear prudence' song, the Bb/D is minor in a major key, very clear with the melody considered and a terrible 'clash' if taken literally as written. The get away with it by omitting the third throughout, but that is not what the chord charts say.
Now, when one thinks of creating an intro as in that example, well...they play a few chords in key but completely ignore the essence of things with that Bb and minor change.
What if you were to do a 'solo' on this song, would you just blow over it in D major pentatonic, or would you now follow the melodic intent and use the F# and the more Bluesy F at those points? Perhaps avoid any F's and create a more enigmatic kind of thing. Simple little details that could make a heap of difference and give a solo more sense and serve the song.
If you were to realize the opening phrase of the song, the words 'dear pru-dence' spelt out a D sus2 (e,d,a) would you still want to play an F# anywhere near that E note even though it is clearly a major tune at that point?
These are little things that make a huge difference and set apart people that are good from those that are great, it is not speed or a lot of theory, but it perhaps looks at what the song is offering up as potential.
If you were to want to write something like that and just used 'cowboy chords....would you think to start the tune with an E if you played a standard D chord with a bit F# on the top of things? How about where it gets to the lines, the sun is up, the sky is blue...etc' a repeating D and E motif throughout...well, maybe...who knows.
But, some of the 'conventions and expectations that we "learn" can really stifle creativity and exploration and the more we learn sometimes, the 'dumber' we can get perhaps rather than being adventurous in our choices.
So again, an ah-ha moment is to see the amazing dissonance that is already included in the melodies of great songs in the contest of the chords and that one does not have to go learn a heap of jazz substitutions or exotic scales to bring out this hidden beauty.
Also that it always kind of rubbed me a little that people often characterize their heroes as being ignorant or natural of something (you know, the anti-theory stuff) but I ahve never bought it and anyone studying these things can see the complexity there. What they had was an ear for these things and the willingness to go out on a limb and recognise when something sounded 'good' and follow where that led rather than correct for what was "right" or what they knew would work. I don't know, perhaps...
Just thought I ought to offer a bit more of a 'lesson' there and a few thoughts.
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Perhaps imagine that you have heard that they are offering cheap 'guitar lessons' or something, a few weeks worth perhaps...what would you like to get from such a thing, what would make you think, hmm that was really good I enjoyed that and want some more?
Again, if people have some of these 'ah-ha moments' along the way, I'd love to hear of them.
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 21, 2012 4:45:46 GMT -5
I don't have much substance to add just here - I tend to play 'by feel,' if you will, and don't really know the jargon associated with the techniques ... I have, however a few little 'aha!' moments ... Back when I first started playing bass (around 15 years ago now ... woah!) I had been playing guitar for about 5 years and didn't really understand the separation, orchestration-wise, of these two instruments. It took a bloke from a church band I used to play with to turn around and tell me I "played bass like a guitarist." That enhanced my guitar playing, however, by not only strengthening both hands but by forming the separation in my mind between guitars and basses. No more would I be playing bass riffs on guitar (unless the song wanted it) or guitar lines on the bass - they were now different in my head. The other thing that did was tech me the importance of the chord as a melodic unit. With different arpeggio shapes, using a different upward sweep to downward or only playing down or up, I could start to hear the song as it was embedded in the chords. I did a weird-ish thing around this stage though - I started to play more broadly-open voicings and often only played the outside of the triad and relied on the vocals (which I was writing at the same time) to add the 3rd at times... I also noticed that with a well-chosen drone, one can produce very pretty music ... I actually have to go perform in a little bit so I best get going but I will tab out a little tune I "wrote" called 'Villanelle' to illustrate what I mean - it's actually a pretty good example of those broadly-open voicings I was talking about. lol - I probably don't make much sense to you guys - I never really had a teacher, just time and a guitar I hope that helps in some way ... ?
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 21, 2012 7:54:48 GMT -5
How much is a private lesson anyway? The cost has to be low enough to be accessible but high enough to insure that the lesson is taken seriously. Charge too much and no one will come. Charge too little and no one will feel invested in the process. This probably strikes most of you as a study in tedium...and it can be. It's sort of like musical weight lifting. To me, any other approach is like learning to fly on the quick by skipping those pesky take off and landing parts...but hey, that just me... That's an unpleasant but necessary reality of guitar. The mechanics are complicated and physically demanding. It's more difficult in that regard than learning piano. I tend to see threes in music. Or maybe I see them everywhere. Maybe it's just me. Idk. I tend to divide learning guitar into three facets. Mechanical skills / instrument familiarity; Music theory; Musicianship. I suppose the last two tend to intertwine, but I consider them as separate entities. Understanding the relationship between notes is quite different from deciding which notes to play (or not play). One is science, the other is art.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 21, 2012 10:15:58 GMT -5
Fast results -vs- long-term techniques
One of the dangers of teaching for immediate gratification is that fundamentals are often overlooked. This can lead to bad habits that last a lifetime.
In an effort to speed up the process of playing something that actually sounds like something, we often concentrate on our inherent strengths rather than our weakness. For instance, fingering for chords.
Most simple "open" chords are taught to include the index finger. It's inherently strong and agile. Unfortunately, this is counter-productive in the long-term. When learning to barre, a new set of fingers is employed to hold the same shapes we employed with the open chords.
Imho, it's better to learn some of the open chords (C, A, Amin, E, Emin) without using the index finger. When those fingerings are mastered, it's relatively easy to add the barre. Instead of learning mechanics for the other fingers, it's already part of the muscle memory. We need only to concentrate on the barre itself.
This is only one of many cases where balancing long-term goals and short-term gratification comes into play.
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Post by 4real on Mar 21, 2012 16:07:13 GMT -5
Thanks for more great replies and the whole conversation has at least me thinking, so all good
Yakks "ah-ha" moments
Yes, the bass is an important and separate instrument and a good bass line is melodic and rhythmic and complimentary and takes skills. I tend to play bass like a guitar player myself as knowing where the notes are is not enough. But this really came home to me while playing a year or so ago with a realy good bass player in the JJ mode and playing those soul songs that set a bench mark for that style. You do tend to or should alter things to make room for others.
Even on the guitar, chords with the root and third low down in the bass often sound muddy and I like so many dampen out the string between the lowest note and the next and tend to keep the third higher up or omitted. There s also the idea of playing a chord without the root (especially if the bass is playing it anyway) and playing inversions with other notes on the bottom. Being able to see chords and naming them not from the lowest note but from the collection of intervals and context is something of an ah-ha thing.
This is similar also in what you are saying about letting the vocalists take on the thirds and having a more open sound or perhaps using the guitar chords/harmony to create more of a sound scape. Thirds are a little mailable and sound out of tune with the western tuning temperament and often more so on the guitar. Horn and strings and vocalists tend to adjust notes but especially thirds that are most 'compromised...and then there is the whole blues thirds and such...and these things can clash a little and someone is going to sound 'off' in the process. By leaving things like that open and letting the one line such as a vocalist fill in that note you are giving them more of a free reign there.
You have to think about both points when working on this solo guitar thing I've been doing, to keep lies separate and distinct and to leave things out so that you don't play a melody note in a chord before it is supposed to be heard in time.
I certainly will be using a few drones and such...I think these kind of things below or above or even ringing in the middle of the chord would be a good way for people to explore the ideas of dissonance and such and explore some of these things and discover for themselves...so will try and think of a few ways that can be done like that...
In part this is because I would like to introduce the ideas and sounds of intervals very early on as well...not just see things as 'notes' but the distances between them and how these make up the sounds of chords.
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Private Lesson Cost.
Well, the people did a bit of local shop front advertising and got called by one guy...he said he'd do it for $320 per hour!
The cost of this program is likely to be based on comparable others which seems to be about $13 though likely larger groups of painters say. The thing is I and others live in a rural area, it will take at least an hour there and back with fuel running at over $1.50 a litre plus there is some modest cost for the facility and promotion for the centre.
Private then is not really an option, $30-$60 I suppose is not uncommon and depends a lot. So, to make this work is to take a slightly different approach and in small groups (say 4) and run a little like a 'workshop'...of course, if they are keen and want to do things privately, then ... sure, show me the money! It may well come to pass I imagine and this is a way to get students perhaps, one thing at a time though.
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I'll come back to the next few points as they are important too...
On the mechanics and such, I certainly when through a phase in my later teens of going through all of these things slavishly and completely changes the way I played and sounded. I had some initial lessons but otherwise largely self taught but with a lot of help from books to which I still some times refer.
In some ways I resented it and did cut me from 'options' like putting the thumb over and the like. I had gotten into the habit of neglecting the little finger and with hands big enough and seeing all those players and hendrix playing this way, I tended to follow suit.
But in the late 70's that whole studio player thing rolled along, you musical interests evolve and you get t thinking there is a 'right way' and looking at things far more mechanically and seeing the mechanics of how things work. So I did all that kind of thing for the longest time, running scales and patterns and lots of chord theory from ted greene and knowing where every note was and all that.
It was only in the last decade really that I loosened up a lot of that side of things and changes some perspective on these things. However, I still catch myself going, why can't I play this grrrr...only to reflect well, of course laying 45 degrees on a couch with the guitar virtually on the lap and the TV on it is unlikely that I'm going to be able to reach anything much LOL...
back later...
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 21, 2012 21:23:44 GMT -5
Ok - as promised...
This is so simple I am almost embarrassed to post it ...
A
|----|----|----| |-5--|-3--|-1--| |----|----|----| |-7--|-4--|-1--| |-0--|-0--|-0--| |----|----|----|
B
|----|----|----| |-10-|-12-|-14-| |----|----|----| |-11-|-12-|-14-| |-0--|-0--|-0--| |----|----|----|
C
|------|------|------| |-5(7)-|-3(5)-|-1(0)-| |------|------|------| |-7----|-4----|-1(0)-| |-0----|-0----|-0----| |------|------|------|
So this is the building-blocks - A is the 'verse' with B as the 'chorus', if you will. The intention is not to play this as chords (like I wrote them ...) but to pick them out. Each string is assigned a finger to pick it - like classical guitar - and only the left hand changes position. This makes for fast and smooth transition as well as getting nice note separation and so on.
In my song, I play the last chord for 2 bars, which is the most logical way, but you could do whatever you like.
In C I have indicated some easy accent-notes that can be thrown in there for effect.
Ciao!
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Post by 4real on Mar 21, 2012 22:35:09 GMT -5
Fast results -vs- long-term techniquesOne of the dangers of teaching for immediate gratification is that fundamentals are often overlooked. This can lead to bad habits that last a lifetime. In an effort to speed up the process of playing something that actually sounds like something, we often concentrate on our inherent strengths rather than our weakness. For instance, fingering for chords. Most simple "open" chords are taught to include the index finger. It's inherently strong and agile. Unfortunately, this is counter-productive in the long-term. When learning to barre, a new set of fingers is employed to hold the same shapes we employed with the open chords. Imho, it's better to learn some of the open chords (C, A, Amin, E, Emin) without using the index finger. When those fingerings are mastered, it's relatively easy to add the barre. Instead of learning mechanics for the other fingers, it's already part of the muscle memory. We need only to concentrate on the barre itself. This is only one of many cases where balancing long-term goals and short-term gratification comes into play. Hmmm...I can see where you are coming from and right in some respects and of course everyone is different. One of the problems with not going for 'instant gratification' is that people can lose interest and not see the point, find progress too slow and feel railroaded into something that they didn't anticipate it to be and towards goals that they don't aspire to. It really does depend. I certainly made a conscious decision in my teens to address these things and took a road similar to C1 but had already enough facility and a few lessons to play lead guitar in a band and play a few songs and find and learn for myself before the internet. But, like many I did not know where every note on the fingerboard was, only a little about how chords were made and seeing them as 'shapes' and lead work trapped inside of the 'blues boxes' and such. I'd actually come a long way, but there was the hard slog there to go and I ahd a desire to be 'better' and do this seriously. I am glad I did, and in fact took this to the max. I'd left school early to join a rock and roll band and only returned when I was 20. I could do this purely because I could get in by audition and fake my way through a little reading and fingerpicking. Why this later, because to completely the year I had to get and learn classical guitar up to grade 4 or 5 in a year, reading music and doing all those exams...and that as only a small part of what I was expected to do. A very busy year 1983. I did well enough, that the guitar got me into uni and anotehr 3 years of music education. However, this is not necessarily what drives people nor what they need or want. This 'instant gratification' comes across as a kind of protestant work ethic thing, as if the guitar should not be enjoyable of that people need know everything and do everything. It falls in stark contrast to the perception of many and in the playing of those they would like to emulate. There are so many misconceptions here and I suspect we'd likely agree on them, but many live in a fantasy and that a lot of people out there have some magical mystery 'talent' alone and know nothing. This I strongly disagree on of course and is not helpful. Take a hendrix say, thumb over the neck, not knowing the names of a lot of things, working by ear and forgoing his pinky quite often...obviously a fantastic guitarist and died very young so he did not have the time. However, he expressed very much that he would like to know of these things and explore more and get 'really good' at playing this instrument and composing music LOL! Other examples are countless. But Hendrix slept with his guitar, he put in countless hours...this was not just or even 'talent' but an open ear and a daring to try things even if unorthodox, a real love of the instrument that was his only constant companion...and a huge amount of desperation! But, for many, they are not aspiring to notions of 'best', perhaps competent, perhaps creative. Lots of shredders have amazing technique, but that creative element is missing. Plenty of others have limited technique but have abounding creativity. Can creativity be 'taught'...well, we can discuss that. Can it be dampened, quite likely. ... But I take you punt...'bad habits'... Can we be more specific about what these are? Is there a genuine right and wrong way of playing guitar and music do you think? ... But in the examples that I have shown thus far I don't think I have offered any bad habits or ignored foundations despite going for some instant gratification. I do not know how much these people know or might aspire too, we will see hopefully, but as I think you pointed out there is a lot going on in playing guitar, it's not like pressing a keyboard key and sound comes out for a start, and the notes are not intuitively all set out in equal rows from left to right. When I started out, the G chord was shows to be fingered as the second finger on the low e string, first on the second, third on the first. I can remember that last time I have played it like that. We also learned to jump about to these shapes seemingly making them in mid air or one finger at a time on the board. Is this really a 'better way' than looking for guide fingers? But you are right, one should aim for learning the open chords without the first finger. I particularly have trouble with the C shape which I am called to use a lot in this 'new style' and leading with the pinky in the bass, it still does not feel 'natural'. There are some physiological reason though, the ring and pinky are linked in the tendons and nor really built for strength and independence quite like that, it takes work but it will always be there. What I am working towards is some of that and with your comment in mind, will accentuate that more. Taking this 'stand by me' two finger chord jazzy thing I made up... The purpose of this is not just to be inclusive of people with different skill levels, not just to explore this with different picking patterns, not just to see how this sequence of chords in so many ways makes so many songs... It opens up a heap of 'discussions' and where it goes from there. One, it brings in the whole idea of 'voice leading. Of altered chords and chord construction. Of being creative and listening to the effects of these added notes. Obviously, ok you have those, now lets start bringing them back to the more 'standard' and plain chord 'shapes'... ---x---x---x--x---------------------- ---1---1---1--3---------------------- ---0---2---2--0---------------------- ---2---2---3--3---------------------- ---3---0---x--x---------------------- ------------1--3------------------- ...C..Am...F..G... Hmm, very 'fifties sounding...still got the nice voice leading in there and if picked up and down sounds exactly like the hit "looking for an echo" by ol'55 down here from my youth...and any number of those songs...duke of earl, guided missile...love that stuff... pete picks up guitar and sings... "guided missile, aimed at my heart Bound to destroy me, tear us apart You have succeeded, making me blue... Ah, a-ha ah, the enemy is you!"That's better...but there is more, with using only two fingers, we can explore making things a little more interesting, how can one use these spare fingers to make something more of it... Well the very simplest way would be to double that open g string on top as well with the little finger throughout... ---3---3---3--3---------------------- ---0---1---1--0---------------------- ---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---2---2---3--3---------------------- ---3---0---x--x---------------------- ------------1--3------------------- ...C..Am...F..G... or lest make a 'riff'...do that b string thing to each chord with the first and pinky...now you got something a lot like "I can't live without you"... ---0--------------0---0--0---------------------- ---3-1-0-1-3-0--1---1--0---------------------- ---0--------------0---0--0---------------------- ---2--------------2---3--3---------------------- ---3--------------0---x--x---------------------- -----------------------1--3------------------- ...C..Am...F..G... ohhh....not good song...however, dampen the low strings with the right hand and up tempo with a constant 80's 1/8 not bass and play the same thing with a different attitude, well you can get it to sound a little like 'minute by minute' doobie brothers or some 80's pop hit thingy. Now we have the fingers moving and seeing the potential in the right hand techniques and how this same chord sequence is recycled infinitely. and...the pinky is coming into play, the left hand is moving, and we can see the 'power' the right hand has over the way things can work. ... Barre things are generally tricky, I still remember it! Ok, how about this, lets meld your idea with my 'instant gratification' and creativity things...take the Coldplay song Yellow.. ---0-----0----0--------------------- ---0-----0----0--------------------- ---1-----8----6--------------------- ---2-----9----7--------------------- ---2-----9----7--------------------- ---0-----7----5--------------------- ok...so fingering with the first finger free and introducing the concept of barre chords. This is the 'right way to play it, not with full barre chords. But it is a start to seeing what can be done and to pulling that finger flat to the board. This is not really 'wrong' or a bad habit, think of the $$ these guys and many more have made from this 'trick' and yet how many people 'play it wrong' by assuming it uses barre chords? Ok, but one can not do that for everything. A great one to learn about this kind of thing is Dylan's "Lay lady, Lay" ---5---4---3----2----|---0---2---5--|------------------------------------ ---5---5---3----3----|---0---2---5--|------------------------------------- ---6---6---4----4----|---1---2---6--|------------------------------------- ---7---6---5----4----|---2---4---7--|------------------------------------ ---7---4---5----2----|---2---4---7--|------------------------------------- ---5-------3----------|---0---2---5--|---------------------------------- ...A..C#m..G..Bm........E..F#m..A this is an interesting song and sequence and getting teh feel for barre chords. Some notes stay, some stay the same. The second part "I long to see you in the morning light" should be played as you suggest with the first finger free for that E chord. ... Ok, but what if we were to 'coldplay it up' LOL...what if we found the barre things still a bit difficult...what if we wanted a different 'sound' to what everyone else does...how about this then... ---0---0---0----0----|---0---0---0--|------------------------------------ ---0---5---0----0----|---0---0---0--|------------------------------------- ---6---6---4----4----|---1---2---6--|------------------------------------- ---7---6---5----4----|---2---4---7--|------------------------------------ ---7---4---5----2----|---2---4---7--|------------------------------------- ---5-------3----------|---0---2---5--|---------------------------------- ...A..C#m..G..Bm........E..F#m..A On an acoustic guitar, you got some nice ringing strings there. I particularly like the F#m7(add4) with the thumb in the bass sound and use it all the time. But not because I can't play a barre chord with every note ringing true for hours, been there, done that...LOL...still, I prefer it with the full barre chords I think. It is an excellent song to learn barre chords on and how I learned, the E and Am's have a similar chord and finger formation dont they and fingering the E without the firt finger makes the ones to follow easier. ... But this is somewhat the goal. Take Bob Dylan, he's certainly done enough hours on the guitar. And, he has written hundreds of songs and still has hits on the radio that people don't realize (thanks Adele). What if your goal is to write a very cool song like bob did above, do you absolutely need to be able to shred your way through everything, to learn all the conventional sequences, or do you need the insight to play the sequence of Lay Lady, lay? ... So, yes I can see where you are coming from and keen to address it though one has to keep in mind the purpose here and the likely participants. We are talking women, we are talking adults, we are talking people who have a guitar so probably know a little of something at least. They may well not aspire to being a session player or join a rock band or be able to play 'anything' or want to do the things I do. They may well have had some guitar lessons but dropped them. They may well be frustrated in spending money on more lessons now and not see something tangible for it. They may well be hoping to meet a few people and have fun. Could be they want to write or just play a cool song...you know...but I do see what you mean. And, I do think people are entitled to expect some results and enjoy playing the guitar and not to have the expectations of others put upon them, you know. ... This gets to another issue that perhaps we are not best to answer. But...lets say it. The guitar world is hugely male dominated. You really don't see this as much in other instruments..why is this. Well, this comes up because the only people so far who called for this, that instituted the ad for this and the person behind instigating it are all...women. Don't you guys find this a little odd? It is certainly not because they cant do it (though, might have to get a few nails cut) but there is just something about the attitude and culture and all that that puts women off, and as a guy, without meaning it can come off a bit patronising or dis-empowering. I think I do need to keep this in mind and work around it as well. Start out by demonstrating to themselves that they can do it, that they can make music now and feed a fire to want to know more or find their niche in this. They tend not to treat it as so competitive as guys tend to do as well and may well have different goals. But there is certainly something about the guitar community that has an amazing disincentive for women to participate as well as hurdles one needs to over come...it is not like there are a huge number of role models out there after all, if only! ... SO, yeah, can see where you are coming from, let me know if you think I am addressing bad habits of there are things that should be explored early as you all ahve done...very valuable and I think better for all this. In fact, the purpose of this thing as I see or would like it to go is not like an average 'guitar lesson' and focusing on 'technique' so much as the creativity side and empowerment...and learning the things that are not typically learnt in such places and I see everywhere is neglected. Ok...we learn the mechanics, we develop the dexterity like an athlete, we have all these skills and can perhaps mimic our heros, we obsess about equipment and impressing the other guitar players, attend concerts standing in a row as if at the urinal with our arms crossed at some guitar hero... Ah yes, but how many of them can write a tune or be creative to come up with what we admire or our own 'voice'...how many are going to turn the guitar upside down, hang the thumb over the neck and make significant changes to the instrument and how it is played. The 'guys' that learned all the right habits and can do it all, or the people who know or can find the things to do? I'm not advocating bad habits and want to avoid them, but I am not above instant gratification if there is a purpose. There are some questions in this post, but perhaps we should get a consensus list of 'fundamentals' so we can work on those and nothing is neglected. I'll start with, always tune the guitar!
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Post by 4real on Mar 21, 2012 23:21:31 GMT -5
Thanks Yakk...
well the edge got a lot of milage out of this kind of approach in U2...throw enough clouds of delay on them and they sound very pretty and suit the song I am sure.
Learning to harmonise scales in sixths and thirds, fourths and fifths, whole triads, 4 parts 7th chords and occasionally even 2nds...not to mention the octaves like 10th that sound so good on bass...is something to learn and over looked.
The drone things are cool and certainly to start with, always effective, but can be limiting too.There are plenty of places where the technique is effective, take Ravels bolero for instance. Many of the things in the post above use drones on the higher strings as well, they are particularly 'guitaristic' aren't they!
But there is a danger that such techniques are 'going nowhere' which is fine if the thing is to have a stillness to it perhaps.
It brings to mind the notion of tension and release (which along with call and response) is a large part of how music works and I'd like to cover. In that tune the tension is mild, it is in the sus4 largely of that middle chord...you set up the tension and release it. Not that there is anything 'wrong in music' but the harmony like this does tend for that D (sus4) to want to 'fall' to the third, which you do in the first set, but not in the second.
This is a more contrapuntal way of looking at things and as I say, nothing is wrong if it sounds right, but everything is in parallel and predictive. This can feel very settling and this may well be the intent in which case you have achieved it. The root and fifth also sounds a little too open to my ears, but perhaps there are other instruments that are filling in as you originally described. Compare that opening chord to that of the second trio where that is a root and third.
...
Not to sound too much like a music critic or one of my old lecturers...but perhaps consider this to fill it out...
--(0)------------12----10--------------------------------- --5--3--2-------10----10----14------------------------------ --4--2--1-------9-----11----13---------------------------- --6--4--2-------11----12---11------------------------------ --0--0--0-------0-----0-----0---------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, I don't know the context and this might be a little much, but full and still avoiding the thirds a bit and a bit of colour and contrary motion to the voices...and fixing the sus4 resolution as I hear it in the second trio of chords.
The first chord is a maj7sus2, no third in it) and all voices are moving stepwise through the scale as before. The open E could be added as an added 'drone' and fifth. This will add even nore 'colour' and tension on the second chord with the not D rubbing against it and so a stronger feeling of tension and release. In the second trio, I added a top voice that approaches the final third from above, the same line in the first example while moving up and back in the lower voice. The maj7 on the resolutions may feel a bit 'mushy' or something, so a straight A chord in the first and perhaps keeping the F# (11th, G string) as an enigmatic 6th sound in the last.
Of course, I didn't know the context, but this is more what I heard in my head with a similar intention. I found the opening chord too open and on a solo guitar too bland.
On a broader scale it is effectively one chord you know throughout the who things, which is fine and can even be daring. We were kind of taught to see things like this as simply elaborations of a harmony.
It's a classic peaceful but kind of inevitable resolution...if that is the nature and intention of the piece, it hit that mark.
I'd recommend listening closely to Ravels bolero and see how a master can do this, the whole thing is one drone, and in some fundamental ways goes 'nowhere' but creates so much with shifting modes and developments of themes and tensions with the drones that you can feel as exhausted as Bo in the movie "10" by the end of it ;-)
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 22, 2012 0:28:57 GMT -5
Yes, very true. The idea is to be a wistful, lilting things that just flows on... section B needs to be resolved by returning to A or it doesn't work...
There is a lot of techniques that I would throw in there to make it move more, but it would have taken me forever to tab that all out ... Again, just a thing that I found pretty and very simple that can give some good right-hand practice without being too 'boring' ...
But yeah - I think the idea you have should be pretty good.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 22, 2012 1:00:17 GMT -5
It's difficult for me to keep a straight face when someone tosses something like this into the conversation: Is there a genuine right and wrong way of playing guitar and music do you think? Do you wanna go there? Really? Who's to say what is right or wrong? Music is art. Sure there is science and technique involved. But at it's essence, it IS art. As such there is no such thing as right or wrong. You wanna scream and warble like Yoko and call that music? Who am I or anyone else to say that's wrong? Bang your open guitar strings with a drumstick and call that music? Why not? Let's go elsewhere... Who's to say that using one finger and one finger only to type a report is "wrong"? What a crock of crap! As long as all the right letters get typed in the correct order with proper spaces and punctuation, it's typed correctly. How dare you or anyone else say that's the wrong way to type. Do you see where this is going?If someone splatters paint against a canvas and calls that art, I'm not gonna sit in judgment of them. If someone wants to blaze away, pentatonically wanking on his fretboard, I'm not gonna sit in judgment of them. If someone squats above the floor, lets a dookie drop, and calls it sculpture, I'm not gonna sit in judgment of them. I'll probably get out of my chair and walk away, but I won't sit in judgment. While we're at it, who's to say you aren't doing these people a great disservice by teaching them any technique at all? Is it possible you're stifling their own creativity by denying them the opportunity to discover all the interactions of their fingers and the instrument by their own exploration? Can either of us say definitively one way or the other? "Is there a genuine right and wrong way of [fill-in-the-blank]"? That sounds like an invitation to a pissin' contest. The only ones to remain dry are those who walk away before the contest starts. No thanks, not gonna debait you on that sort of question.
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Mar 22, 2012 1:51:47 GMT -5
I understand you a bit, but in the same since, by taking music lessons, aren't you asking to learn the "correct" way?
I remember my (nameless) guitar teacher telling me that a first time student came in saying he's been playing for years. The guy turned borderline violent when he was told that the riff to back in black is not, in fact, A A A... A A A.... A A A.. A A A.. A... A A... because he has perfect pitch, and he can hear that's what Angus is doing.....
Where am I going with this? No idea, it's 1:48AM, and I feel that within a learning environment, there IS a correct and incorrect way to play guitar. Otherwise, whats' the point of lessons?
And hey, maybe I took everything out of context, in which case, in the great words of Emily Litella, "Nevermind"
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Post by 4real on Mar 22, 2012 3:14:21 GMT -5
I think you got the complete wrong end of the stick there ReT...not sure where that came from, it could be a productive conversation. I was not being 'post modern' about it at all and had prefaced that with not only some 'strict' personal history, 4 years of university training, classical guitar experience, and all the rest mentioned.
It is no pissing contest, but hey, participation is optional.
My aim is purely to brainstorm some ideas and understand each other and what will do service for the situation and task I am considering.
It seems at odds too, I am not in any ways suggesting nor displaying anything that is a 'bad habit' or 'bad technique'...
I'm not rejecting normal guitar technique. If they don't have it, this is one way to bridge into it. If they do, this is a way to explore other ideas and learn to 'play' the guitar, not just 'do it'.
Is there a problem in asking what exactly are the fundamentals, I am trying to work out a method of doing this in this particular situation and these participants...individual guitar lessons and working through a method book does not seem to appropriate or what is required.
I asked that question becuase you seemed to be saying there are, there are 'fundamentals' that there is a 'danger' in not learning them and all that. I took your suggestions and tried to incorporate them into these approach, they were good valid and food for thought.
Instead of being unproductive, perhaps you could acknowledge that, correct it or offer more on that kind of thing.
I am a little astounded because you don't seem to 'get it' at all, this is not just to 'throw paint at a wall' but to get to the essence of what these progressions and such is about on a deeper level, not just 'anything goes' at all...have you played the examples, do they sound like 'anything goes'?
Sure it is about creativity and some different approaches, but surely you can see that it leads back to the barre chords if they don't already know them, of scales cells merging over the entire fretboard, learning all the notes and not just starting in open position and being musically valid...not in some abstract 'yoko yelling and calling it art' but in quite a strict voice leading conscious way and being able to discern the difference. Many people play and even learn formally without getting half of this.
I can not imagine what has offended you so for that outburst, if someone can explain it to me, I'll take it on board as constructive criticism.
I don't see any pissing contest and this generally is not the feel of this forum surely?
...
IJWS
I'm not sure if this is directed at me...I am asking them to make some nice music and feel like they are progressing to start with. I want them to be able to make smooth changes and work on the right hand. I want them to see and hear progressions and recognise them in songs they hear, might want to play or play themselves. I want them to get enthusiastic and what to learn more...
I don't want a beginner to not achieve much struggling with the barre, especially amongst others who might have it down, or a whole group of women, sorely represented in this activity, (possibly because of this kind of attitude), and that is the nature of this kind of course. At $13 an hour, I think I am offering something of value for the money and more.
I don't see any 'bad habits' so far, though I might be blind to it so please explain if so, and yes, I am interested in compling a 'consensus of 'fundamentals', this is important and valuable
~Be in tune ~Be in time ~Articulate every note ~Know the fretboard ~Develop dexterity in every fingerboard ~Be aware and have material to practice, pick, finger and hybrid styles ~Be able to arrange a song for solo guitar accompanying a voice ~Have some experience playing in front of others ~Have some experience playing with others ~Be conscious of common progressions and understand how they work in a key ~Learn the major scale and how it is used as a slide rule for chord construction ~Learn to make or find melodies within scales, not just play them up and down ~Understand the principles of tension and release ~Understand the idea of call and response
~Get an understanding of how thins like posture or finger placement can effect the playing, the RSI potential and restrict ones ability. ~See the places one can take the guitar from where they are at.
~Meet some like minded people in the community and learn from them ~Learn how to play with others cooperatively and productively ~Feel they have achieved something and learned a little of how to access material and learn for themselves
For my part, ~Be responsive to their goals without restricting where they may wish to go in the future ~Use examples where possible of music they enjoy, work out a way to do that within their abilities, show them how it is approached on the record perhaps, show some other alternatives, advise what is required to further those goals... ~ etc
...
Now at $13 an hour for perhaps 8 weeks, I am open to suggestions of other ways one might approach teaching a mixed group of adult women or potentially mixed experience and also fulfil the mission of the centre and the community to which it belongs.
One minute the 'soup nazi' is evoked, now a 'pissing contest' threatens for asking the same question put to me it seems...are there fundamental flaws here, what are they...if there is a 'right way' that doing this would be a disservice in the quest for 'instant gratification' as was clearly implied...fine, I don't want to do anyone a disservice or leave that out, but the least one could offer to a conversation is some specifics.
Where they are put, such as in the fingering chords without the first finger, my response was to see where that applies and work it in immediately, more of that would be productive, something constructive that we can discuss and work with.
Unlike some if not many would be guitar teachers, I want to be prepared with some actual program and goals, not an attitude that...well, I have 35+ years of playing, 7 years playing rock in pubs, 4 years of university education in music, and have this shiny guitar here...oh and this 'mel bay' how to play guitar book, now, page one...lets go! I wouldn't pay even $13 for a month of that an I really don't think that is the best one can offer students in this situation, does anyone?
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Post by sumgai on Mar 22, 2012 3:20:46 GMT -5
'stratty, No, I'm sorry to say, you've missed the mark. What 'TrEaD means is that if you go to a teacher for lessons, you're asking him/her to teach you his/her way of doing things. Not necessarily the "correct" way, just their own personal way - big difference, eh? Correct only works as a descriptor when one wishes to duplicate, exactly, what one wants to cover. Take for instance a recent thread on (allegedly) exactly how the Beatles performed the opening chord of "A Hard Day's Night". Obviously most people have been getting it incorrect for years, but in the end, who cared - who really cared? If the player made the chord sound close enough, 99% of everybody bought into it. Technically not correct, but as 'TrEaD says, who's gonna sit in judgement? (Hint: not the people who wanna stay dry!) For all else, one goes to a teacher to learn technique, and Gawd help us all if everyone had/used the same technique(s). Ideally, you pick a teacher based on wanting to learn their techniques, but as we all know, that's a trial-and-error process, for various reasons. If we're lucky, we end up with a perfect match, and we progress almost beyond our dreams. The rest of us struggle to master what are considered the basics, and most of us cheat at that (at least for awhile). A good teacher knows from massive experience, collected over millions of man-years' worth of watching what works/doesn't work, that there are some defined "things" a musician needs to know in order to get on with intermediate and advanced studies. No matter how they are presented, these things need to be drilled into the student, or there's gonna be some hard feelings down the road. History will out. Let me comment on Edge. He takes a different road to achieve his "statement of artistry". He creates what he feels are sonic soundscapes that do not necessarily have beginning or end points. I like his thinking, even if sometimes I get bored with repetitive listenings. Contrast that with Kurt Cobain - would you call him an accomplished guitar player? Personally, I don't think he could even spell the word 'guitar' 3 times out of 4, unless he had Courtney hold the dictionary open to the right page. The man simply beat on the axe like it was his personal whipping boy, and while doing so, he chanted, moaned, shrieked, and in general p d off a lot of air molecules in such a way as to make a few shekels. Trust me, it wasn't for his guitar chops that he made the Hall of Fame, it was because he bared his soul, and people in his generation resonated with that. But both of those guys started somewhere, didn't they? Whaddya wanna bet they didn't start with the same teacher? </my two cents> sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Mar 22, 2012 4:02:21 GMT -5
Pete, I've stayed out of this 'til now, but since you just ninja'd me, I decided to read all of your most recent post. I don't think reTread was disrespecting you so much as he was just stating a concern, one on which he places a high priority. Me personally, I'm still trying to reconcile how you're gonna pull off laying that entire list of 'basic' skills on a group of people in only 8 weeks. Man, I must be gettin' old, I just can't imagine that one...... sumgai
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Post by 4real on Mar 22, 2012 4:06:13 GMT -5
Yakk...missed that post, thanks for sharing. Just thought I'd throw in an impression, I obviously don't know the context. Just thought I'd play it, and show how I'd hear it is all...from what I can see...not a criticism as such, who am I after all LOL.
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Sumgai, thanks for your 2C there...helps a little.
But again...if you pay $13 an hour for 8 weeks of a group course promoted as 'creative guitar workshop' you are not going there for individual tailored guitar lessons, are you?
I'm no sure what ReT was saying there really. I'm not advocating this as something for everybody, but developing a plan for a particular and unusual set of circumstances, shopping for ideas, sharing mine and opening myself up for possibilities, suggestions and cohesive constructive criticism and correcting for them where valid. Some may even find these ideas useful here, perhaps not...who knows...
Is he, cause it does not seem to read that way, but I don't get it perhaps and need an explanation.
As for your examples, these are valid...not sure if I totally agree, but the essence I do...
Similar to the artist below, found his own voice and hardly a record goes by without his influence in there some where and across genres. A good co-writer of many hits and imaginitive in doing his thing.
Well, certainly a very creative and enormously influential guitar player. You could not walk into a guitar shop without hearing some one play those tuns or turning a chorus to the max. An the influence of the tunes remains...slow bit, fast bit, slow bit, fast bit...
I suspect that both of these artists were not so much influence by what ever teaching they may have, I know they were not 'taught' their distinctive styles.
What they had is exactly is what I am trying to engender in this workshop, to open one up to the possibilities and explore the instrument and find that 'voice' or at least work with what you can do, enjoy it, and continue to grow.
I am reminded of an interview with Mark Knophler who has like many, despite deserved fame and rock stardom, that he wanted to know more and learn. He got himself the classic Mickey Baker books, that I too did when I 'got serious' and he started to come out with tunes like "private investigations" as a direct result of that and other 'studies'. It opened doors and broke him out of those trademark, sultans of swing, tunnel of love, etc Im-Vi-bVII progressions.
Even the best need some inspiration and to expose themselves to new things and possibilities.
It would be a lot easier to shop an established method, but is that the requirement in this particular situation, am I billing it as such or a replacement for 'real' lessons of some kind.
Plus, this is a big and remote place, it was something that was suggested and endorsed as 'missing' and desired to some small extent. Exactly what is unclear, but I pitched this kind of approach for lack of anything else.
When I asked if there were others that had shown an interest in taking up the challenge, the manager said there were two others. One seriously asked for $320 and hour...the other was 15, half the age of the participants and no teaching or performing experience.
I am the alternative, reasonable cost, an appropriate plan, results, responsive to the overall plan, enthusiastic and at my own risk and payment for the facilities.
I also have future proposals to involve established factions should it pan out. There is a very active cadre of writers, a 3 hour lecture about song writing was suggested as something that would be popular. Combining perhaps the guitar with writers may well prove some interesting results.
They also have a lot of activity in the arts, similar kinds of courses in this and an annual art show as well as an open mic. This seems to be a very good opportunity to work music into the activities and community and be seen to be a valid way of achieving this kind of thing.
People out here just don't have the 'choice' of guitar teachers, I answered an add is all. People can not be picky, but they can be exploited for lack of choice and distance to travel.
But hey, I assess the situation as best I could and this is what I came up with in three days so far. I don't know if this would be taken on, I seriously doubt of creating any "great harm" in anything so far and if I did have some grand idea or 'revolutionary new method' or anything as arrogant as that, I wouldn't be asking for suggestions, opinions and criticism.
Now, I think it would be productive to put those 'fundamentals' out there to ensure they are covered or corrected in what they already know as necessary...I offered a list of things right off the top of my head, any thoughts, ideass, things that are a 'must'...
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Post by 4real on Mar 22, 2012 4:33:41 GMT -5
Pete, I've stayed out of this 'til now, but since you just ninja'd me, I decided to read all of your most recent post. I don't think reTread was disrespecting you so much as he was just stating a concern, one on which he places a high priority. Me personally, I'm still trying to reconcile how you're gonna pull off laying that entire list of 'basic' skills on a group of people in only 8 weeks. Man, I must be gettin' old, I just can't imagine that one...... sumgai That's ok, I am not quite taking it as an insult, just not getting where that is coming from or what to do with it. Some specifics as earlier would help. He has concerns I can see, but what are they? Yeah, well thanks S, it is a difficult task and probably why it is that there is nothing on offer for at least 200kms in these places (yes, I researched to try and find something that worked) and it might fail or never happen, you know. So, my take on it is that a conventional approach to 'guitar tutoring' is simply not going to work nor be popular to ever repeat again. This place is 40kms from me and their nearest decent sized town, and they want the guitar tutor delivered and pay for the facilities as well.....hmmm So, to make that work, it needs to be a group session. People have guitars and an interest, so they must know a little, perhaps a lot. How does one level the playing field and keep them engaged. There is a bigger function that needs to be considered, from what I have gathered, these are mums stuck at home and with an interest in music, not painting or poetry...but they would like to participate and the purpose of such places is to engage the community in activities and find people to make it happen...from a very shallow pool. So, there is an underlying 'social function' to all this. So, yes a tall order, and any help working out how to approach things would be appreciated and has been. In this time, this is what I came up with. But hey, it will all likely change with the situation. I imagine that I will fill out a form for everyone asking what they like, what they would like to achieve, where they are at, what music they like, etc This will inform the approach and somewhat on the fly. But, I also want to have some kind of structure and 'course' as well, I want to be able to 'level the playing field' hence trying to devise things that are easy to play and sound good and approachable for most people to tackle. ... I suppose another way of posing the question is to either put yourself in these shoes, or perhaps...if you saw such a course offered. "creative guitar workshop" what would you expect or be happy to have attended and got something out of? I have attended a few workshops by notable people, 'an hour with and questions' type of things in years past, things like tommy emmanual and the like. I am not proposing that or putting myself there, but they do not dissect anyone's technique really, still worth it though. I have also attended master classes with people like John Williams and Peek (remember 'sky') at the college of the arts, and they do have students play and critic their work, but again, not the same thing. How these people would tackle a group of young mums in the middle of nowhere for 8 weeks I have no idea, and they probably don't either. I'm not proposing 'short cuts' but hopefully giving options, something tangible that they can play, meet some others with the interest in their community, give them the confidence and basics to take it where they want to go. But to do it, I think preparation is in order. I have seen and known a lot of guitar teaches, even did it myself for a little while, and often they are winging it. I recall thinking it would be cool to have a few lessons at one stage and we played for a bit, said he could not teach me anything and how do you play that thing you were doing there...LOL...I suspect he was wrong in his assessment as he did a good george benson impersonation, but really it is hard to teach players beyond total beginners isn't it, it takes work and most are winging it I suggest, but I could be wrong I never tried again after that! I would though for $13 an hour, a bargain. If it pans out, I will attempt perhaps to do a recording...see how they fare in 8 weeks...
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 22, 2012 10:37:31 GMT -5
Yakk...missed that post, thanks for sharing. Just thought I'd throw in an impression, I obviously don't know the context. Just thought I'd play it, and show how I'd hear it is all...from what I can see...not a criticism as such, who am I after all LOL. lol - no sweat man - I played that thing you put up - freaking nice! Didn't mean to come across pissy, mate! I reckon if I was in a forum of drummers, I'd still be the worst guitarist there
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