jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 23, 2012 13:24:10 GMT -5
Hey guys, I guess I will say Hello first.  I have been playing for a while and although I'm no stranger to guitars, I am a bit noobish to wiring. I can solder fairly well and have wired by way of diagrams numerous times in the past. So on to my problem I guess. I have a 91 - 92 era MIJ Fender HMT. The original electroics consist of a Dimarzio dp152 Super 3 in the bridge, a Fender silver lace sensor in the neck, an import 3-way pup selector along with 1 master volume, a TBX pot for tone tweaking, and a mini toggle for splitting the humbucker. I have replaced the volume, tbx to a 500k pot, 3way, and mini toggle. The problem I have is my humbucker sounds weak and tinny and my tone pot seems to effect more volume than tone. The diagram I followed mainly was this support.fender.com/service_diagrams/stratocaster/026-4901_550A_SISD.pdf with exception of the black and white wire's from the Dimarzio running to the mini toggle for coil-splitting which is hooked together to the middle position with the upper lug open and the lower grounded. I'm about to go bonkers, I have rewired this thing 3 times, I have reversed the green and red wires of the Dimarzio etc... Can anyone help with a diagram of this setup or maybe donating me some wiring skill?  |
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Post by yakkmeister on Apr 23, 2012 20:51:56 GMT -5
Welcome!
What you may want to do is fire up your mspaint or something and draw up a diagram of your wiring - the wiring you actually have in your guitar. This will help clarify the issue and give everyone a good starting point.
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Post by newey on Apr 23, 2012 22:28:33 GMT -5
jrex-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
Let's take your issues in reverse order:
Please verify the value of the capacitor you used (IOW, please give us the numeric code that appears on the actual cap you used) Was this a new cap, or one you desoldered and removed from the TBX the guitar had previously?
Does the sound change when you select the coil-cut setting on the mini-toggle?
Is the sound the same when in the center "both pickups" position on the 3-way switch, or only when the bridge is on alone?
Switching the red and green wires would have solved the problem if the HB was out of phase with the neck, but if that was the issue, it would have sounded weak only when on with the neck pup. So that can't be it.
And, wiring the black and white wires together as the series junction is correct, as far as the DM wiring colors go. And, as far as I am aware, there never was any variation on DM HB wire colors. So, that eliminates the possibility that the HB was wired internally OOP.
The only things it could be are:
1) You're not getting both coils of the HB. A tap test with a screwdriver may disclose that, and that's also why I asked whether the split setting changed anything.
2) a bad connection somewhere- unlikely since you're getting some output, but could happen.
3) A bad coil (or coils). Did you test the coils of the HB prior to installation? Was this pickup "weak and tinny" before you replaced the pots, or was it that way before? And, do you have a multimeter?
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 24, 2012 7:38:47 GMT -5
Hey guys, I guess I will say Hello first. I have been playing for a while and although I'm no stranger to guitars, I am a bit noobish to wiring. I can solder fairly well and have wired by way of diagrams numerous times in the past. So on to my problem I guess. I have a 91 - 92 era MIJ Fender HMT. The original electroics consist of a Dimarzio dp152 Super 3 in the bridge, a Fender silver lace sensor in the neck, an import 3-way pup selector along with 1 master volume, a TBX pot for tone tweaking, and a mini toggle for splitting the humbucker. I have replaced the volume, tbx to a 500k pot, 3way, and mini toggle. The problem I have is my humbucker sounds weak and tinny and my tone pot seems to effect more volume than tone. The diagram I followed mainly was this support.fender.com/service_diagrams/stratocaster/026-4901_550A_SISD.pdf with exception of the black and white wire's from the Dimarzio running to the mini toggle for coil-splitting which is hooked together to the middle position with the upper lug open and the lower grounded. I'm about to go bonkers, I have rewired this thing 3 times, I have reversed the green and red wires of the Dimarzio etc... Can anyone help with a diagram of this setup or maybe donating me some wiring skill? 1 - Does the tone control affect the volume ONLY when the HB is selected? Or does it also do that when the neck pickup is selected? 2 - And, do you have a multimeter? If you don't have one, get one now. (They're dirt cheap) Measure dc resistance at the loose end of a cable plugged into your guitar, with the volume and tone on "10". Post the resistance value when the selector switch is in the neck position and when it is in the bridge position. Expect a little less than 7k in the neck position and just under 24k in the bridge position. Rotate the tone control counter-clockwise to zero. If the resistance measured at the cable might change while the knob is moving, but should settle back to the same value it had when the the knob was at "10". If it stays at a very low resistance when the knob is at zero, the tone cap is shorted. |
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 24, 2012 9:17:33 GMT -5
First of all thanks for the help guys. I'll give some background. I bought the guitar in 1995 because the look and sound (at the time) was awesome! The pristine cleans that it produced and the chunky humbucker is what sealed the deal. Many gigs later including a couple of drops (one on the pavement) it was showing its age and I lost heart in it. So, I stored it since around 02 - 03. 1 week ago I decided to give her new life (and discovered all the electronics were hosed) so, here I am!  Done and Thanks. .047 New Yes I can tell the neck & hum are both on, the lace gives it more bottom in conjunction so its hard to tell if the hum is still tinny No, I didn't test the coils, as far as it working before, it didn't work because the switches etc... were fubared and yes I have a multimeter! The neck pup works as it should, the bridge pup goes stale with the tone pot. I think I may have a short in the humbucker wiring itself... Will do as soon as I get home, I am off to live the American dream! (if you get what I mean)  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 24, 2012 9:52:45 GMT -5
Will do as soon as I get home, I am off to live the American dream! (if you get what I mean) Have a great day at work. But plan for a minor disappointment when you get home. The neck pup works as it should, the bridge pup goes stale with the tone pot. I think I may have a short in the humbucker wiring itself... This is good information, but points toward a bad problem. I suspect one of the coils of the HB has a break in the winding. Since the tone pot works normally with the neck pickup, the tone control should be fine. I think you'll find the resistance to be very high (around 500k) when you measure at the loose end of the guitar cable with the selector in the bridge only position. When you take the guitar apart and disconnect the HB wires, measure resistance between Green and White, then between Red and Black. I suspect one of these pairs will measure around 12.5k ohms and the other will be an open circuit. |
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 24, 2012 19:25:41 GMT -5
Ok, so I just got home and here are my results on measuring the resistance at the cable. 12.4k on hum, and 7.1k on neck. Turning the tone doesn't change the value period from 10 - 0. This is my next objective, will have the results soon! Wish me luck, I just hope to find the problem even if it is a bum pup. I will just purchase a replacement!  |
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 24, 2012 21:51:31 GMT -5
Ok, so I measured the resistance between the green and white, and then the red and black. 1 - Green and white value = 12.74k 2 - Red and Black value = 0k (open circuit) So, I can now safely say my Dimarzio is flubbed?  Thanks so much guys, I honestly was about to put this guitar back into storage. Possibly indefinitely. I could not have done this on my own. I guess it's time to find a replacement. Now I just need to decide on going back to a Dimarzio or a Seymour Duncan of some sort. Believe it or not I hate this part... Any suggestions on a Hot versatile passive humbucker for high gain tube amps? (Think classic rock, 80's rock, metal) Or is there such a pickup?  |
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Post by newey on Apr 24, 2012 22:02:58 GMT -5
RT said:
That's a close enough prediction to merit the "crystal ball award". IOW, +1!
jrex, however, measured:
0Ω would indicate a short, not an open circuit. Are you certain it was not an "out of range" or "over limit" reading? Meters vary as to how an out of range reading is represented.
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 24, 2012 22:33:47 GMT -5
Hmm, You guys make me want to go back to school lol. I shall try again at a higher setting. Shouldn't take just a second.
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 24, 2012 22:54:01 GMT -5
Still getting a 0k reading. So I went for broke and measured about a half inch from the pickup itself by peeling a spot from the insulation and still a no go? No matter the setting on my meter I get zero from red to black.  Thanks again guys! I will let you know how the new pup (whatever it shall be) goes, because, if it is borked beyond the the backing plate, it will probably be over my head to repair! |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 25, 2012 0:16:48 GMT -5
jrex, Hi, and  to the NutzHouse! 0Ω indicates a short, as newey points out. This jibes with reTrEaD's prediction, because if it was open (broken wire), then you'd have no sound whatsoever from the Humbucker. By having Zero Ohms, that coil is passing a straight signal from the other coil, because they are in series, not parallel. (Note that series connected coils are the standard for nearly all Humbuckers. There probably are some exceptions, but not likely from the big-name companies.) As for a replacement, you can't go wrong with Guitar Fetish pups. Search around here (and on other websites) for reviews, soundclips, etc. HTH sumgai |
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Post by ashcatlt on Apr 25, 2012 1:49:53 GMT -5
Is the pickup still in the guitar when you were measuring?
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 25, 2012 8:45:10 GMT -5
So, what you are saying is the readings I'm getting are normal and my problem lies elsewhere?
The first time I tested yes. The second time I tested I had the pickup out onto the table top.
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 25, 2012 9:16:30 GMT -5
0Ω would indicate a short, not an open circuit. Are you certain it was not an "out of range" or "over limit" reading? Meters vary as to how an out of range reading is represented. This. Often an out of range is indicated by a leading zero and the following digits are blank. You can tell the difference between that and "zero" (like when you short the two probes together) because zero will have all digits showing zero. But something still doesn't add up!My original supposition was based on a BREAK in the windings of one of the coils of the HB. There would be an "open circuit" for DC resistance, but the pickup would still "work", although very poorly. The capacitance between the layers of windings would allow the signal to pass, but the circuit would now include a very small capacitance in series. This would result in a weak signal with even less signal passing at lower frequencies. "Weak and tinny" as jrex described. Add to that, the strange behavior of the tone control. Works normally for the neck pickup, but drastically reduces the volume on the HB. A very small capacitor in series with the HB would fit these symptoms nicely. But the later measurements don't fit the profile. Whatever problem (short or open) exists on the north coil (Red/Black). If we look at the diagram in reply #4, this coil is always used when the HB is selected. The other (good) coil (White/Green) is shunted when the mini-toggle is closed. We would expect the tone to change, but the sound would still be "weak and tinny". However...Ok, so I just got home and here are my results on measuring the resistance at the cable. 12.4k on hum, and 7.1k on neck. Turning the tone doesn't change the value period from 10 - 0. This is contrary to my supposition. The 12.4k measurement at the loose end of the guitar cable suggests one good coil of the HB. But jrex determined the "good" coil is White/Green. The only way to get that measurement would be if the Red/Black was shorted and the minitoggle was open (off). But if the Red/Black was shorted, what happens when the minitoggle is closed? The HB wouldn't just "sound different". It would be SILENT. And what about the strange action of the tone control? Without the small (series) capacitance, having the tone control severely affect the volume of only the HB is difficult to explain. Something very odd is happening here... |
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 25, 2012 9:53:00 GMT -5
Ok, so after more tinkering I swapped the red to ground and the green to hot. I now get a fuller sound, but not like a humbucker. Also I didn't change any other wiring (mini toggle) etc... The mini toggle now gives fuller sound in the up position and sounds like an ancient cellphone speaker in the down position. Once I switch to the middle position on the 3-way it whacks out again until I put the mini toggle back into the down position! (which is opposite of what sounds good with 3-way in the bridge position) Holy batflaps I'm confused!
Ok, as far as me saying "zero k" on the results, maybe I should have said I'm getting "NO" reading. My meter sets at the number 1 regardless of what the setting is at idle, and when I measure the red & black wires it does nothing at all in any position (ohms) it just stays at 1. So I probably caused all kinds of confusion there and I apologize!
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 25, 2012 10:35:47 GMT -5
Ok, as far as me saying "zero k" on the results, maybe I should have said I'm getting "NO" reading. My meter sets at the number 1 regardless of what the setting is at idle, and when I measure the red & black wires it does nothing at all in any position (ohms) it just stays at 1. So I probably caused all kinds of confusion there and I apologize! k, koo. This is "open circuit". Ok, so after more tinkering I swapped the red to ground and the green to hot. I now get a fuller sound, but not like a humbucker. Also I didn't change any other wiring (mini toggle) etc... The mini toggle now gives fuller sound in the up position and sounds like an ancient cellphone speaker in the down position. This makes sense. When you have the mini toggle in the down position, you have the full HB including the coil with the broken winding. It will sound weak and tinny, and the tone control will severely the volume. When the mini toggle is in the up position you are using only the Green/White coil. This will sound similar to a SC bridge pickup. The tone control should work normally here. Once I switch to the middle position on the 3-way it whacks out again until I put the mini toggle back into the down position! (which is opposite of what sounds good with 3-way in the bridge position) Holy batflaps I'm confused! The "whacked out" sound is from having the bridge (single) and neck out of phase with each other. When you put the mini toggle in the down position, the HB is still out of phase with the neck, but the HB is WEAK. So it won't sound all that much different than the neck alone. You could change all 4 wires of the HB and get the good (White/Green) coil, in-phase with the neck. This will sound good with the minitoggle in the up position regardless if the bridge is used alone or with the neck. But I wouldn't bother. I think you should just replace the HB. As for a replacement, you can't go wrong with Guitar Fetish pups. Search around here (and on other websites) for reviews, soundclips, etc. Good prices, but sometimes there are problems when using them with pickups from other manufacturers. They use the same color codes as Seymour Duncan, but there have been reports of the magnets being installed the wrong way round. This puts them out of phase with other pickups. Dunno if they still have this problem or it they've corrected it. In any case, doing the "screwdriver pull-off test" with any replacement pickup, would be prudent. |
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jrex
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Post by jrex on Apr 25, 2012 11:20:39 GMT -5
Ok, thanks for clearing that up I sorta figured it out a little (doing this in my head with no training with electronics engineering or wiring) but everything you said makes sense. Again, makes perfect sense! So I guess a new pup is due after all. As for guitar fetish, I'm going to do a little research. Their website looks well organized and professional but I have never heard of them. Off to find some clips! Thanks again to all of you! |
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I have been playing for a while and although I'm no stranger to guitars, I am a bit noobish to wiring. I can solder fairly well and have wired by way of diagrams numerous times in the past. So on to my problem I guess. I have a 91 - 92 era MIJ Fender HMT. The original electroics consist of a Dimarzio dp152 Super 3 in the bridge, a Fender silver lace sensor in the neck, an import 3-way pup selector along with 1 master volume, a TBX pot for tone tweaking, and a mini toggle for splitting the humbucker. I have replaced the volume, tbx to a 500k pot, 3way, and mini toggle. The problem I have is my humbucker sounds weak and tinny and my tone pot seems to effect more volume than tone. The diagram I followed mainly was this support.fender.com/service_diagrams/stratocaster/026-4901_550A_SISD.pdf with exception of the black and white wire's from the Dimarzio running to the mini toggle for coil-splitting which is hooked together to the middle position with the upper lug open and the lower grounded. I'm about to go bonkers, I have rewired this thing 3 times, I have reversed the green and red wires of the Dimarzio etc... Can anyone help with a diagram of this setup or maybe donating me some wiring skill? 
Thanks so much guys, I honestly was about to put this guitar back into storage. Possibly indefinitely. I could not have done this on my own. I guess it's time to find a replacement. Now I just need to decide on going back to a Dimarzio or a Seymour Duncan of some sort. Believe it or not I hate this part... Any suggestions on a Hot versatile passive humbucker for high gain tube amps? (Think classic rock, 80's rock, metal) Or is there such a pickup? 
Thanks again guys! I will let you know how the new pup (whatever it shall be) goes, because, if it is borked beyond the the backing plate, it will probably be over my head to repair!
