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Post by genmce on Sept 20, 2013 8:14:16 GMT -5
There are different brands, and quality levels, but they all operate the same (as far as is known- our member wolf posited the existence of an "all-connected" On-On-On but no one has ever proven that such exist) Here's the switch logic for all types of DPDT switches (excepting On/Off and momentary types):  Oddly enough the on-on-on (China) switches I got on ebay are reversed in the middle position verified with my meter. I can't tell you how long I spent thinking about reversing wiring that I had seen - especially the series/coiltap/parallel for a humbucker. Of course I had figured this out last year - but did not keep any notes about it - so when I dug back into this guitar I was surprised to say the least when I looked at the wiring and started scratching my head - then I remember your images (above)... then I tested the switch again -- the light went on, thankfully. Edit 8.27.15 this time I will clarify what I mean. The middle of the bottom row above - my switches in center position are wired the opposite way, center to up on left. |
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Post by genmce on Sept 20, 2013 8:25:58 GMT -5
So - I won't post a wiring diagram of what I did - it would take too long and I'm about to change it to XTRO-Strat. At least I think I'm going to try this - since I have so many holes in this beast. Current status - humbucker SD 59jr in neck middle - noiseless vintage humbucker SD humbucker I forget the number. Standard 5 way switch - standard strat combos. ONONON dpdt series/coil tap/parallel switch for neck hb Neck on pp on main volume pot Neck phase pp on master tone pot Middle pickup volume pot ONONON dpdt series/coil tap/parallel switch for bridge hb bridge on volume pot I am thinking of replacing this last knob with the rotary keeping all other configs above and implimenting the xtro strat upon it. Am I crazy? |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 20, 2013 10:43:10 GMT -5
No, I'd say only that you're NUTZ!  |
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Post by genmce on Sept 20, 2013 10:44:33 GMT -5
Thank you - I now feel welcomed here.  |
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Post by newey on Sept 20, 2013 12:29:36 GMT -5
genme- Two years you've been here and you're only now feeling welcome?  We've known for some time that you were Nutz! Heck, you own a Dano 12-string. You must not be wrapped very tightly . . . But, nevertheless, you said: On this point only, I'm voting "yes, you are crazy- and not just Nutz". Let's analyze the tones you will be adding to what you already have, if you were to implement the XTRO scheme in addition to your existing wiring (minus the "Bridge on" P/P) First, the XTRO scheme gives you all the standard Strat parallel combos at position 1 of the rotary switch. But you already have those combos, so position 1 on the rotary adds nothing new. Let's jump ahead to position 3 on the XTRO rotary. This gives you the two parallel combos missing from the std. Strat scheme- N+B and N+M+B. But you already have those, by pulling the "neck on" switch on your current scheme. Or, if you left the "bridge on" switch that you have already in place, same thing; you're already redundant on those combos. (The XTRO position 3 on the rotary is, in fact, just a "bridge on" switch anyway.) So, that leaves position 2 on the rotary, which gives three series combos- N*B, (N+M)*B and M*B. You don't currently have those, so XTRO adds only three settings to your existing scheme. (Note that the other two positions on the 5-way are redundant when the rotary is at position 2). These series positions are obtained by putting the bridge pickup in series with whatever is selected on the 5-way switch. You don't need a 4P rotary switch to do that, you can use a simple DPDT, which could be a P/P, to get those same combos. In other words, you'd replace the "bridge on" switch with a "bridge in series" switch. We have a diagram to put the bridge in series with a 5-way around here somewhere. It would be a whole lot simpler to do that than to wire in a big rotary switch that, for the most part, just duplicates what you already have. Plus, with the XTRO, you lose the volume control for the bridge. So, yes, I think you are crazy . . .  |
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Post by genmce on Sept 20, 2013 14:51:11 GMT -5
genme- Two years you've been here and you're only now feeling welcome? We've known for some time that you were Nutz! Sniff  - I think it's just the first time someone here call me nutz! Now this is my kind of humor and below is exactly what I need to hear. Thanks Newey - I was not thinking clearly. I think I also did not diagram what I already had, to know what I already had. It's all those holes in the guitar and me wanting to fill them. Any other thing that might be interesting to add? I have 3 switch holes left. |
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Post by newey on Sept 20, 2013 18:55:08 GMT -5
Well, there are any number of switched cap, or caps plus inductors, schemes around- ChrisK's "Free Woman Tone", Varitone, et al. Cavity space permitting, you could drill out one (or more) of the switch holes to take pots, so as to give you tone pots for the individual pickups. Six pots may be a tad much if they're all in circuit at once, however. Or, stick with switches and PM ashcatlt for his certified 12-step program to get off pot(s)for good. Other ideas? MuuAAHAHAHAH!! How about this? Get three LEDS, with those fancy chrome bezels for bling, and wire them to light when a pickup is "On", thus giving you a visual indication of your pickup combos. How do you wire that up? I dunno, it's crazy idea time!  Or, Nutzier™ still, bi-color LEDs on the two HBs, so that one color indicates single coil, the other for full HB. Your "cool quotient" ("CQ") rises several points the first time you play out with this rig . . . You'll have to rename it from "Danoblaster" to "The Panty Dropper". |
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Post by genmce on Aug 25, 2015 20:25:12 GMT -5
I'm back at this guitar. Having done several guitars, with different (wiring) setups, my knowledge base has increased to the point I think I am ready to revisit all the valuable comments that have been already stated and ask a few new questions. The shear number of possible combinations is totally overwhelming. One of JohnH's comments in his stratsphss, about "usable" pickup combinations, has me seriously considering what pu combos will be useful to me. In addition, the ease of use has become much more a concern as I forget where things are, sometimes. 4 pp pots and 4 switches seems way overkill. All that being said - I don't have much experience (or recollection) with the local HB series/parallel/cut sound on these gfs pickups, in this 12 string. Since they are not earning their keep, sitting in a drawer - I am determined to try them again. I think I abandoned them too soon, before knew much about setting pu heights to taste and before I had much of a palette to know the differences of the combos and the right components. This guitar will probably have that porcupine look - 4 switches, at least while I decide what I like. So my journey begins anew, back where I started. I think this quote below is what has motivated this decision, that and my never being satisfied with how this guitar has sounded. Well then there is always - I'm just nutz! This is a little bit back to the derailment re: the GFS pickups, but an interesting observation that I might as well share. Having this set so severely mismatched with the progressively heavier winding toward the bridge means that the neck pickup is actually significantly brighter. The harmonic balance at the neck is still weighted more toward the fundamental, so is generally bassier, but - thanks to less windings and therefore less inductance - it has over an octave of extension at the treble end compared to the bridge HB. It's noticeably more "hi-fi" or "airy" sounding. The bridge pickup is brassy and strident and kind of nasally, but not really what I would call bright. This was true when I had the Lil Killer set in the strat. My hybrid has the hot tele version at the bridge, and a mini-HB in the neck, but the numbers are about the same, as are the audible results. The mini-HB has a bit more chimey kind of bluesy kind of sound than the blades did in the neck position, but there's still that extra bit of air, too. Also I'm just a bit surprised to hear newey saying that he's unhappy with the split sound. I'm not really a huge tone snob. I guess I have hadn't a whole lot of experience with SCs from all over. I did, however, use a Rickenbacker for a main ax with an MIM Fender Tele for backup for quite a number of years. Not too shabby references re: SC tone. Anyway, I find nothing lacking from these pickups when split. The volume difference is pretty severe, and of course we tend to prefer the louder ones, but once I got around that I've found I rather like these sounds. I somewhat prefer the split sound to the parallel sound, though they're close enough that I'll sometimes go parallel just for the noise cancelling. In live performance I had been defaulting to the middle pickup in local series. Gives me a pretty loud, middle of the road sort of balanced tone and I use my hands (mostly picking technique) to modulate overall volume and tone. I have pedals for more dramatic changes. Lately, though, I've found that I'm digging the combination of split neck with split bridge. I can get the same kind of catchall baseline tone from the parallel combination (N+B), then if I want to push my amp further into overdrive or a little boost for leads, I can flip the inter pickup S/P switch to series mode and then if I really want a nasty bitey lead tone I flip the neck phase switch. Overall a nice versatile setup. And I've been getting compliments re: my tone at the open mic lately. The Vox AC4 probably helps I suppose. So at this point I'm thinking 3 on-on-ons for local HB series/parallel/cut. Which was suggested very early on, in this thread. Master vol, tone, mid vol (dial-a-duck), series fader Series parallel modes The need for NB - as well as middle alone. Phase switch on middle - though I am not sure I will use this, I don't on my other guitars, though it might still be desirable on this 12, if there is too much mud... |
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Post by JohnH on Aug 26, 2015 16:57:03 GMT -5
I was wondering what your main selection control will be? In addition to the extra pots and switches. Will you stick with a 5-way switch? Or maybe three toggles or slide switches for pickup on/off? Freeway 6 position toggles are another option maybe.
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Post by genmce on Aug 26, 2015 19:03:21 GMT -5
I was wondering what your main selection control will be? In addition to the extra pots and switches. Will you stick with a 5-way switch? Or maybe three toggles or slide switches for pickup on/off? Freeway 6 position toggles are another option maybe. This is really preliminary (planning) stage. Considering options and ways to approach what I am after. I have had a regular (fender) 5 way in there in the past and worked around it's limitations with pp, in the past. I have a Superswitch, that, I think, can fit. I have a couple 4pdt switches. I really like the StratSp - hss ... I am mulling how I can modify for 3 Hbs. The on-on-on toggles selecting the mode the Hbs are in. I could send the output from on-on-on toggles to the super switch. Thinking - how to get the on-on-ons coil cut for Neck and Bridge - when cut - Neck uses bridge side coil, and Bridge uses neck side coil? I think I can choose the which coil is split at the on-on-on. Cool then - I'll need some way of switching the M to either North or South - depending on which 5 way position, 2 or 4 for hum-cancelling? Not sure quite how to do this. I will need to think some. To get neck side coilcut short green/red to get bridge side coil short black and white, I think.  EDIT I need to continue pondering the best way to move forward. Maybe - I am just going to create a mess, that I can't keep track of, again. I don't really want to do that - on the other hand 4 knobs and 5 switches plus the 5 way... will allow me to find what actually sounds good on the guitar. Then I could trim down the options. I did the 3 toggles on a guitar a long time ago, I didn't like it. The 5 way is more to my liking and easier to remember where I am, geographically. OMG - I am crazy... good night all. Edit - all wiring diagrams I see for local HB seem to be in that order (up - mid - down ) parallel/cut/series. I think I want to go cut/parallel/series so the up switch position is single and all the way down is "normal" series HB. Also, this way they get progressively more output, right? And - can I automatic choose which coil is cut I over on the 5way super switch based on position? So instead of using another switch guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/58083 use the 5way. Understanding what switches do and how to effectivily implement them to other uses seems so important. |
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Post by genmce on Aug 30, 2015 6:12:34 GMT -5
From this thread guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/76332/threadIt's good to figure out ideas, you never know when you might stumble across a good one. Just on options, if you like the idea of something similar to the SPhss, but with hhh and pickup switching options: 1. If you go with the on/on/on switches (2 pole, or 4 pole if crazy), you would have to commit to one of the two coils being the single coil option, which could be different for each pickup. 2. Another version says that you don't do local parallel, just series and single, and then all the coil cutting could be done with one 3 pole toggle - but all at once 3. You could have one pickup that knows which coil to cut to for humcancelling but with no parallel option, as with the bridge humbucker on the SPhss, and the other two have to cut to a set coil and can have a parallel option if you want If it was mine, Id do the following: Use the SP hss diagram, exactly as you now have built, we know that works for you. Delete the phase switch if you don't want it, and adjust for wire colours/polarities of new pickups. Use 3 simple dpdt sub-miniature toggle switches. These are my favourite little switch, just a bit smaller and neater than a normal mini-toggle, they mount in a 5.5mm hole instead of a 6mm hole. being two position, they are much less fiddly than three-position toggles. One of these replaces the coil cut switch on the wiring, but is wired the same, to coil cut the bridge pickup The other two cut each of the other humbuckers, directly after the pickups so what reaches the wiring diagram is just two wires, coil cutting has already happened. THeses latter tow switches could also be combined as just one switch. By careful arrangement of all that, all single coil combos can be hum cancelling, except maybe NM out of phase if you have it. Or, maybe just do all series/parellel for each pickup, no single coil sounds, three submin toggles and the SP diagram. I quoted you here, because it directly relates back to this guitar. I like #3 above. i still want to try the local parallel to see if I like it. |
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Post by genmce on Aug 30, 2015 11:24:11 GMT -5
I am looking at StratSPhss mod to HHH. I show all three on/on/on switches for my own sanity (I know two switches for the bridge looks weird on same diagram) and I have not altered any of JohnH's original diagram - yet...  I have not wired this yet, just trying to come to terms with it. Looking at the on/on/on switches I added - (the thin red lines are not wires I added - they are only showing the style of my particular on/on/on switches, in middle position - so I don't get screwed up) the brownish line is a wire. (I think) I have Neck and Bridge coil cut to North and Mid coil cut to South for now - until I work through a few other thoughts. I have reached a question... Where is the ground to coil cut? On these switches, I have shown the black wires coming out, going to ground, however they will be going where the black wires go on the super_switch. This awesome design does some auto phase changes depending on position of 5 way switch. I don't think I can coil cut this way... It looks like my results will be a bit crazy, right? |
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Post by JohnH on Aug 30, 2015 15:24:31 GMT -5
I think that will work, but the sss SP is probably a better base for it, then just take each pair of output wires from your toggles to represent one pickup on the SP diagram. Coil cut connections don't always have to go to true ground, all they really have to do is shunt a coil. So you can take a humbucker, connect it to the dpdt on/on/on as you are, then draw a bubble around all that and treat the whole thing it as an simple two wire pickup to sub into any diagram.
What all of that can't do though is to select which coil is cut. I see you have picked that the M will cut to a different coil to N or B, so you make a sort of RWRP set of single options. That s probably as good as you can do. But out of three possible pairs of singles, you can get two to hum cancel and one that doesn't this way. You can decide which that will be (its NB as currently shown)
Or as I suggested on your other thread, give up local parallel on one pickup, then you can let the hssSP diagram sort out coils to get all single pairs hum cancelling when in phase. Big encouragement if that would be the B pickup which remains with eth coil cut switch as drawn by me (though you may wire it on a toggle instead. But I suspect you would prefer that the the M pickup is the one to not have local parallel. Possible in principle but a wiring design do-over required.
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Post by genmce on Aug 30, 2015 16:39:34 GMT -5
Thank you sir!
Ok so leave the bridge going to pp or to toggle to coil cut, leave parallel bridge out.
Wire m and neck as stated to super switch.
Redo diagram - ugh...
Will make first attempt soon.
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Post by genmce on Sept 6, 2015 7:45:44 GMT -5
Going to try this guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/76373/threadWhich is very similar to above diagram. Will post results as I finish. Edit - wiring done. Had to swap mid and neck humbucker hot wires, a few times to get phase and coil cut correct. Quick lemon oil, crown a few frets, fret erasers, 00 steel wool. Stinging it up now, cold beverage included. Cheers to hoping there is at least something I like, looking forward to exploring. I think I did not like the first attempt with coil cutting these pickups (a few years back) because I did not understand which coil to cut with which for max quack and Hum-canceling. Will try to do a count of options as well as posting an edited JohnH diagram and truth table once I actually hear it. |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 6, 2015 16:05:12 GMT -5
Hey that's great. It's a buzz! We go to to sleep down here and during the night guitars get wired up across the world.
These designs are obviously too simple for you.
Cheers
John
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Post by genmce on Sept 6, 2015 17:35:11 GMT -5
Hey that's great. It's a buzz! We go to to sleep down here and during the night guitars get wired up across the world. I really like the idea of that. Thanks for the great designs and modifications to my specific needs. HA! That's a good one. I could not design these. I might be able to follow the diagram with a soldering iron, but that is about it! Thanks again. Edit - Strung-up and rockin' out. This has the 85 from stratSP minus MB(HB) on 2 - at least I think it does. Added combos (do they all sound different - that's another question) Hmm not sure how to count this. M(HB local parallel/series) + B(inside coil), same combo series, soop, poop. 8 N(HB local parallel/series) + B(HB series, coil cut outside ) same series, soop, poop 10? N(HB local parallel/series) + M(local parallel/seres) same series, soop, poop 24? N(inside coil cut) + M(local parallel/series) same series, soop, poop 8 And the reverese of last one. 8 Oh - I give - lots of options. Not quite sure how to make a table to cover all of this. |
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We've known for some time that you were Nutz!
- I think it's just the first time someone here call me nutz!
