Wiring dilemma

[ispas]

Hello,

I just bought two SJAG-3 Quarter Pound for Jaguar, and two 500k pots. I would like to have a simple guitar, with a on/off switch for each pickup, and with one tone and one volume pot. I have this schematic, but I will not have the 3 way switch.

www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/S_2singles1vol1tone1switch.html

Can you please help me modify the schematic so it should be as I want to?

I also need help with the ground wires. In fact, what I need is to tell me exactly what goes were...

Thank you!

[wolf]

Ispas

I hate those switches too. 2 toggle switches are much better.
If you want more tone options, have you considered what the 2 single coils would sound like in series? The typical "Fender sound" is 2 single coils in parallel (sort of like the "Sultans of Swing" sound).
If these pickups were connected in series, the sound would be similar to that of a humbucker.
Personally, I like having the option of switching the coils from parallel to series and back again.

[CheshireCat]

wolf said:

Ispas

I hate those switches too. 2 toggle switches are much better.
If you want more tone options, have you considered what the 2 single coils would sound like in series? The typical "Fender sound" is 2 single coils in parallel (sort of like the "Sultans of Swing" sound).
If these pickups were connected in series, the sound would be similar to that of a humbucker.
Personally, I like having the option of switching the coils from parallel to series and back again.

The tone and vol pots could be push/pulls that respectively toggle the pickups on and off, and you could have one additional toggle that would switch between series or parallel.

Talk about minimalism. ;D

[ispas]

Well I personally do not like humbuckers because they have a fat sound. I like trebles much more. And, I would like the schematic to have only the components mentioned above. So, can you help me with the schematics?

Thanks!

[CheshireCat]

ispas said:

Well I personally do not like humbuckers because they have a fat sound. I like trebles much more. And, I would like the schematic to have only the components mentioned above. So, can you help me with the schematics?

Thanks!

What are you talking about? Humbuckers? I suggested 2 on/off toggles and a series/parallel selector toggle. The idea simply was, since you wanted a master tone pot and vol pot, I suggested that they be push/pulls for selecting the two pickups so you can simply switching.

Chesh

[wolf]

ispas
Here is your diagram modified with 2 toggle switches instead of the 3 way switch.
That Seymour Duncan Diagram was HUGE and so I did a lot of cutting and pasting so that I could turn it into a manageable size.
I was just suggesting the series switching option because (to me anyway) single coils don't sound great with distortion. Anyway, it is easier to draw without the series parallel switch.

[ispas]

Thank you a lot Wolf. I want to ask you one more question: if I have two 500 k pots, what kind o capacitor should I use?

Thank you again!

[wolf]

ispas
Personally, I like to use a .05 mfd capacitor on a tone control. HOWEVER, this will dull the high frequencies somewhat, even when the control is set for 10. There are 2 solutions for this:

1) Get a "No-Load Tone Pot"
guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/category/20electronicparts.2controlpots/
(You'll have to scroll down almost to the bottom).
Anyway, when this tone control is set on "10", the capapcitor is taken completely out of the circuit. (It seems they only have a 250K but maybe someone else sells a 500K)

2) Make your own "full-on; no load" potentiometer. Basically, open the potentiometer and scrape off the resistive material from the "9" to "10" position. You don't need to scape much away - just enough so that there is no direct connection to the "pot" terminal that is at the "10" position.

Here is a posting on the Seymour Duncan website that describes how to do it.
seymourduncan.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46632&postcount=3
No diagram though. Maybe that's something to put on my website.

[Runewalker]

No-load - second article on the page"


www.projectguitar.com/tut/pots.htm

[wolf]

Runewalker

Good website find.

[ispas]

If I connect the pickups wrong, what can be burned? Or, will something bad happen?

Thanks

[wolf]

ispas
I'm assuming you are using NO active circuits in the guitar (NO batteries).
I'd also assume that you will be plugging the guitar into a properly-working amplifier.

If that's the case, nothing in the guitar will get damaged if you connect the pickups incorrectly. (Provided that, you don't decide to "install" the pickups with a sledge hammer, impact wrench, chainsaw, etc)

[ispas]

OK... I can do some real experiences now... I hope in few days to receive the pickups and the pots so I can start them...

Anyway, thank you all very much for your advices, especially to you, Wolf!

Alexandru

[UnklMickey]

Wolf, Alexandru,

I fully understand the desire to have individual switches for 3 pickups or split humbuckers or even when 2 pickups for in/out of phase and series/parallel.

but why such an aversion to a 3 position switch for such a simple arrangement as this? the only additional configuration here for separate switches is all-off. is there something i'm missing here?

thanks,
Unklmickey

[wolf]

I guess the main reason is that the toggle switch is my absolute favorite type of switch.
This switching arrangement is quite intuitive in that you can see precisely which pickup(s) are active.
Also I find that a toggle switch has a more positive "feel" than any other type of switch and requires a lot less "travel" (or is "excursion" the right word?). Basically, you don't have to move them very much.

[Runewalker]

I also prefer the toggles. They are a little awkward if you are moving between combos, eg. N/M to N/B, or M only to N/B, or one to all three, etc.

All of it is learnable and becomes second nature with practice. I actually felt disoriented about the 5-way and odd tone controls of a Strat, after years on a LesPaul.

I think what the discussion revolves around what you are used to.

Strat-exclusive players have those years of motor pattering of moving the lever up and down. I wonder why no manufacturer has not made a 7-way lever to capture the 2 lost sound combos in a 3 pup unit.

Some of these exotic sounds just work better with toggles. I have talked with John H about adapting the designs in the ToneMonster thread to the lever switch just to accomadate the sort of allegience strat players have to the paddle. I the end, with a 5-way you are still forced to use some kind of toggle or push pull to get the lost combos. Introducing Series/Paralllel systems options significantly complicates the paddle and you have to move to SuperSwitch type configs.

Millions of Strat owners, millions of conditioned repsponses to the paddle.

It reminds me of when I would get companies to switch from that funky WordPerfect 5 and its arcane key combos to a Windows Word processor, and you would have thought I was asking the WP drones to pimp their moms.

[UnklMickey]

runewalker said:

Strat-exclusive players have those years of motor pattering of moving the lever up and down.

Runewalker,

what is motor pattering? i'm gonna guess it's the same as or similar to "muscle memory".

thanks,

unklmickey

[Runewalker]

"...what is motor pattering? i'm gonna guess it's the same as or similar to "muscle memory". ..."

Yep, just a different term for the same concept, except I am spelling impaired. Patterning

I am not a neurologist, but both terms are wobbly. Muscles don't have memory, and motor patterning underidentifies the Brain/neural/muscular processes that build learned pathways of motor performance.
But enough of that.

Muscle memory is good enough.

[ispas]

Hello again...

I tried 2 times to connect the wires like in the schematic and it doesn't work... I mean the volume pot is not working properly, the sound is still there, the difference is somewhere in the middle, there is a horrible buzz... the tone pot is not present at all...

What can I do? Help... I will try to find someone here to fix my guitar, but maybe you have some ideas....


Thanks, Alex

[ispas]

If I do not have the right capacitor, or a broken one, can this affect so seriously the schematic?

And, the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION... were do I connect the grounding, of which part of the guitar? of one of the pots? both of them? were?!? this is a big dilema...

Thanks again!

[UnklMickey]

just rewired and have a horrible buzz eh?

most likely cause: ground and signal are wired backwards on output jack. sometimes hard to tell which is ground and which is signal on jacks that look like the one in wolf's drawing. some manufactures have ground on left, some on right.

tone pot and capacitor...
too small cap doesn't reduce treble except maybe the stuff only dogs can hear. too big and it cuts both the mids and the treble. broken? if cap is shorted, tone pot acts like a volume control (sort of ). if cap is open, tone pot does ablsolutely nothing.

good luck
U.M.

[ispas]

Thank you for your advices, now the guitar sounds ok. And when I touch the strings the hum dissapears.... But! the volume pot works from 5 to 10 positions only, and the tone pot is somehow working, but in the process it ads or cancel the hum of the guitar. Is this ok? I believe not. Not that is bothers me, but I would like to now if I can do something about it...

I have another question: can I use as a tone capacitor some electric piece that writs on it: ELNA, 25v0.33ìF, and there is a sign that shows which wire is the negative one? It is from a attachable photo camera flash.


Thanks,
Ispas

[UnklMickey]

Alex,

it's good to hear from you again. when i get involved with troubleshooting a problem, i always like to get feedback as to what was the source of the problem. it helps in figuring out the next guy's problem. so what fix did you make to get from the previous situation to where you are now?

as to your questions, i'll start with the last 'cause it's the easiest! -- NOT RECOMMENDED.

i don't think that cap is electrolytic 'cause the value in fairly small. so i think the "negative" is actually just the indicator as to which lead connects to the outer foil. that would be connected to ground for a little better shielding from noise than if it were connected to a signal path. that cap could be used, but here's the problem: with a 500k pot, and a source impedance of ~10k (a reasonable guestimate for pickups), the corner frequency would be about 100Hz. as you turned the tone control, you would be seeing all the frequencies above this (maybe the G, 6th string - 3rd fret) being attenuated with a slope of 6dB per octave. that is to say, every two octaves up the signal is half as loud.

it would be sort of strange and probably not so useful. that 0.05uF cap that Wolf recommended is going to put you more in the ballpark of about 800Hz for a corner frequency. that's about as low as you would ever want for a simple treble cut control. i would use 0.01uF. Wolf and i have different opinions here, but neither one is RIGHT of WRONG, it's just a question of flavor.

on to your other questions.

before i offer any more suggestions, can i ask you to be more specific about what happens with the volume and tone controls? for instance, you say the volume control works only between 5~10. what happens between 0~5? is there no sound at all, does it increase gradually from nothing at 0 to still fairly quiet at 4 and then suddenly increase to half volume at 5? is there lots of scratchiness when the control is turned?

the more information you can give me, the better i can understand the problem. i can't guarantee we can fix it, but with some patience, we can talk back and forth until i get a better understanding of the symptoms. then we'll stand a better chance of finding the source of the problems.


...the Doctor is IN!

[ispas]

Hello,

Thanks for the answer. Well, I made some improvements of how the pickups are attach to the guitar, and now the distance between the pickup and the strings is about 3 mm, and the pots started to function... The tone pot is working ok, i can sense a difference, a really big one. Still, the buzz is still present. It is not horrible, I do not feel it when I'm playing but... The volume pot it's still the same. Between o to 5 the sound is barley perceptible, from 5 to 10 there is a major "jump" I am so sorry that I do not have a digital camera to show you some pictures with it, i like it very much!

That is what is happening. Welll I will not use that cap, mabe I'll make a statue of some sort, for I do not know what to do with it...

Alex

[UnklMickey]

glad to hear things are improving. i'll remember to ask about pickup height when debugging. now let's try to figure out whats going on with that volume control. there are a few possibilities. do you have a volt-ohm meter? if so lets test a few things.

one possibility is that your amplifier is loading down the guitar heavily. with your amplifier OFF, plug your cable into the input and measure the resistance from tip to shield of the open end. what is that resistance? accuracy is not critical here, just 1 significant digit, i.e: 50,000 ohms, or 3,000 ohms, or 400 ohms etc. the higher the better. if it's a tube amp it may be so high you can't measure it -- that's a good thing.

next, plug the cable into the guitar. again we'll measure from tip to shield on the open end of the cable. if you have wired it as you originally planned, you have separate switches for the pickups. with them both turned off we can tell a lot about whats hapenning just by measuring from the end of the cable without even opening the guitar. with the volume pot at 10 you should measure the total resistance of the pot (usually 250,000 ohms or 500,000 ohms) when you set the control at 7.5 you'll read about 65% of that value. at 5 you'll read about 30%. at 2.5 you'll read about 10%. (these proportions are assuming you have a log A type control).

turn the control back to 10. switch on the neck pickup. what is the reading now? switch off the neck pu and on the bridge pu. what is that reading?

with both pu off, turn the tone control. you might see a change while the control is moving, but regardless of where the control is set, the reading should be the same. this is because the capacitor blocks direct current. if this is not true, it indicates a problem.

so here's a list of the resistance measurements you should return to me:

1 amp input resistance
2 guitar output resistance -- (pickups off,) volume at 10
3 volume at 7.5
4 volume at 5
5 volume at 2.5
6 volume at 10 -- only neck pu on
7 volume at 10 -- only bridge pu on

i'll be away for the weekend so i probably won't have net access 'til monday.

Good Luck,
U.M.

[ispas]

Thanks for the answer, I will take this measures as soon as I can, we had some problems with the rehearsal space, so we have to move. As soon as I have this values I will tell you!!! It will probably happen somewhere in 2-3 days.

Thanks,

Alex

PS: I will also need the services of a friend... electronist I do not have a clue what you are talking about...