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Post by roadtonever on Aug 19, 2012 10:15:00 GMT -5
Hello Nutz!
Lately I'm finding some tone cap values simply excell for certain pickup selections. How would you approach this wiring-wise aside from the ordinary DPDT addon?
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Post by roadtonever on Aug 19, 2012 10:52:37 GMT -5
How would this work?  |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 19, 2012 12:55:46 GMT -5
rtn, That modified diagram should be labeled "3 Single Coils, 2 Volumes, No Tones, 5-way switch". Sorry, but you've made the Tone control into nothing more than another Volume pot. Do two things: a) Cut the jumper wire between the Common terminals of the two switch sections. The "left-most" portion will continue to go to the Vol and Tone pots, we'll use the "right-most" portion in a moment. b) Cut the Tone pot's wiper terminal away from ground. Instead, run that wire from the wiper up to the Common terminal on the right-most portion of the switch, the one you just cut away from the Vol and Tone pots. That should give you what you're after. Whether or not it gives you what you want, that's for you to decide  HTH sumgai |
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Post by roadtonever on Aug 19, 2012 14:15:18 GMT -5
That modified diagram should be labeled "3 Single Coils, 2 Volumes, No Tones, 5-way switch". Doh!  BTW, those caps will be combined in parallel in the in-between positions right? For example 47+22uf=69uf |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 19, 2012 18:24:02 GMT -5
rtn, You've got it right, the diagram will deliver what you asked for in your opening post - Congratulations! ;D But I'd like to comment on.... BTW, those caps will be combined in parallel in the in-between positions right? For example 47+22uf=69uf Your summary is correct, capacitor values do add in parallel. For that reason, you should make an effort to choose your caps wisely. Either that, or be prepared to do a lot of experimenting!  This is one of the drawbacks of using a single pot to control more than one cap. Not only do you suffer the increased value when in Pos 2 or 4, but just switching between 1, 3 or 5 means that you have to deal with the Tone control - either leave it where it is and hope it's good, or else manipulate it to some other position in order to obtain the desired tonality. Hmmm, wasn't your original idea to avoid having to play with the tone control more than the minimum?  You might consider using only two caps. Of course, this means that you have to "love" the tone for the single pup with no cap attached, but who knows, that just may turn out to be the case. Or you could use small trimmer pots between each cap and ground. That way you can dial in the best compromise between the combos, leaving the Master Tone control for fine tuning, so to speak. HTH sumgai |
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Post by roadtonever on Aug 19, 2012 18:56:48 GMT -5
just switching between 1, 3 or 5 means that you have to deal with the Tone control - either leave it where it is and hope it's good, or else manipulate it to some other position in order to obtain the desired tonality. This is the stuff that keeps me up at night. Dealing with tone controls is indeed a b  h. At least I've decided to set aside parallel inductors this time. I Love the trim pot idea! ;D |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 19, 2012 23:37:25 GMT -5
rtn, Using a 'standard' 5-way blade switch, you get the issue of combined caps in Pos. 2 & 4. But if you swap out your standard switch for the Fender-approved High Octane version (one terminal for each position, no mechanical sharing at all), then you can easily work around these kinds of problems.  One terminal per position means that you can run 5 caps, one per position, and choose them to suit your needs. No more 0.067µfd values swamping your treble frequencies.  Just a thought. HTH sumgai |
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 20, 2012 20:45:54 GMT -5
While a 4P5T superswitch would allow for individual cap (or cap and trimmer networks) on each position (and allow for additional changes in the pickup combinations), I'm not sure parallel caps in the 2 and 4 positions would necessarily be all that bad. Since these positions have 2 pickups in parallel, the "source impedance" would necessarily be lower. Hence a larger cap may not "swamp" the treble as heavily as one might have imagined.
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Post by roadtonever on Aug 21, 2012 0:23:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure parallel caps in the 2 and 4 positions would necessarily be all that bad. Since these positions have 2 pickups in parallel, the "source impedance" would necessarily be lower. Hence a larger cap may not "swamp" the treble as heavily as one might have imagined. Yeah, it sort of works out. I have a confession to make, the Strat was hypothetical. My current project is (still) the bass with two pickups and a 3p4t switch. That said I'm getting one of these before xmas: [img width=400 height=300 src="http://i.imgur.com/UAzhk.jpg "] I have the same basic plans for wiring as for the bass, which is: 5-way tele-wiring omitting the 5th position plus the the different tone caps for each position. So far I've attempted to draw the tele 5-way wiring as "true" 2p5t.  1-3 is erroneusly jumpered. I was thinking "that's what the Fender switch is doing" until I realized it will make the selections sound the same. How do I solve this puzzle? |
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 21, 2012 2:11:08 GMT -5
How do I solve this puzzle? You don't. A standard 5way "bridges" between throws in positions 2 and 4. This allows for more connections than can be made by a 2P5T. With 3 of the 4 poles of a superswitch (4P5T) you can combine 2 pickups in every way imaginable. But with only 2 poles, flipping phase is not in the cards. |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 21, 2012 12:08:45 GMT -5
Phase? Who said anything about phase? As rtn notes, a "true" 2P5T will do the job, as originally described. But what I wanna know is, how'd we get to "Tele 5-way switching, minus the fifth position"? Is there such a thing (from Fender), and is this where phase reversal came into the picture... IWK.  sumgai |
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 21, 2012 12:24:40 GMT -5
Phase? Who said anything about phase? It's in the circuit rtn linked: Is there such a thing (from Fender) Definitely not. |
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Post by roadtonever on Aug 21, 2012 17:57:56 GMT -5
While I attempt to hack it out a general question about switches comes to mind:
For example: When I select a switch position 3 in a DP switch, the jumpered connections are exactly: A3- to- A-common, B3- to- B-common?
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Post by roadtonever on Aug 22, 2012 17:47:43 GMT -5
Sorry if the shifting the scope of the thread put anyone off. I just want to get a grasp on the basic concepts. Alas I'm stuck on my main goal, which I haven't articulated clearly yet, so I'll spell it out:
2PU, 3P4T
1#Neck
2#Parallel
3#Bridge
4#HOoP, series-cap on Neck
Individual tone caps for each position
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Post by JohnH on Aug 22, 2012 22:50:39 GMT -5
Hi rtn
I think you are one switch pole short of being able to have a free choice of 4 cap values, one for each setting. So a four pole switch would make it easy to do.
But a 3p4w is a neater easier-to-get switch. With that, I could see a scheme working where you can get some variations in cap values, sharing the function of two of the poles between coil selections and cap selection. Specifically, I could see how you could have an equal minimum tone cap value applicable to both parallel and Hoop (hardwired as a normal tone cap), and then add extra caps to use larger values of your choice, for B and N.
So do you have a feel for what values you might want? or which settings will want higher values and which lower?
John
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Post by roadtonever on Aug 23, 2012 0:54:02 GMT -5
Hi rtn I think you are one switch pole short of being able to have a free choice of 4 cap values, one for each setting. So a four pole switch would make it easy to do. But a 3p4w is a neater easier-to-get switch. With that, I could see a scheme working where you can get some variations in cap values, sharing the function of two of the poles between coil selections and cap selection. Specifically, I could see how you could have an equal minimum tone cap value applicable to both parallel and Hoop (hardwired as a normal tone cap), and then add extra caps to use larger values of your choice, for B and N. So do you have a feel for what values you might want? or which settings will want higher values and which lower? John The tone cap value I intend to use for the parallel selection is much larger than the N and B caps combined. This leads me to opt for ommitting HOoP from the pickup selector and use a DPDT instead. Thanks very much looking in to this for me, John. Back to the drawing board. Is there any way make the HOoP act on the parallel selection only? Here's what I have so far:  |
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Post by JohnH on Aug 23, 2012 4:34:39 GMT -5
Id say it should work. Phasing a pickup doesnt affect its sound in itself (unless you are playing feedback games at high volume).
You will probably configure your dpdt as a phase switch on the neck, so that the normal cold end of the neck pup is fed to hot via your series cap, in phased mode only. To stop that doing anything when its neck only selected, but phase is engaged, you could use a 4th pole on your rotary to bypass the series cap in N position. ie, you use a 4p3t switch - just a common as a 3p4t
with this arrangement, since there are only 3 main switch positions, you can only have 3 tone cap selections, is parallel in phase and hoop have to share. But if you got a 3 pole toggle instead of a dpdt, you could have it modify the parallel tone cap, to allow your choice of cap values in all settings.
John
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 23, 2012 11:03:10 GMT -5
I guess I'm a little slow on the up-take. I just now realized why this discussion turned into a dog chasing its own tail for a while. Because of the round hole for the Gibson style pickup selector, using a superswitch (or any lever action switch) is off the table, right?
If that's the case, starting with any circuit designed around a standard Fender 5way will lead to horrible confusion. Because of the bridging of contacts in positions 2 and 4, there are some things that are easily accomplished. But since there are no rotary switches that perform the same function, it's better to start with a blank sheet of paper for the design.
For future reference, it would be helpful if you define the type of switch you'll be using, number of pickups, and the desired combinations as well as other goals, in the OP.
John has a good handle on what's commonly available in rotary switches, so his advice will be of great value as the discussion continues.
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Post by roadtonever on Sept 25, 2012 8:19:08 GMT -5
You will probably configure your dpdt as a phase switch on the neck, so that the normal cold end of the neck pup is fed to hot via your series cap, in phased mode only. To stop that doing anything when its neck only selected, but phase is engaged, you could use a 4th pole on your rotary to bypass the series cap in N position. ie, you use a 4p3t switch - just a common as a 3p4t I've been struggling with this, what connections do I make for the fourth pole? |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 25, 2012 15:38:33 GMT -5
You will probably configure your dpdt as a phase switch on the neck, so that the normal cold end of the neck pup is fed to hot via your series cap, in phased mode only. To stop that doing anything when its neck only selected, but phase is engaged, you could use a 4th pole on your rotary to bypass the series cap in N position. ie, you use a 4p3t switch - just a common as a 3p4t I've been struggling with this, what connections do I make for the fourth pole? OK, I think I've remembered what I was on about. I will sketch a diagram John |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 25, 2012 17:46:37 GMT -5
Like this:  This would have three different tone caps, for N, N+B and B. As drawn, the Hoop setting shares a tone cap with N+B. If you wanted it to have its own value, ie a 4th tone cap, the dpdt would become a 3pdt toggle - which is quite possible, can sketch if needed. The dpdt reverses the phase of N, and feeds it through the Hoop cap. This feature is only wanted when both pups are selected, so the left pole on the rotary bypasses the Hoop cap, when N only is selected. Do you need a wiring sketch or is that clear enough? Also, just to be clear, I'm assuming Hoop means two out of phase pups in parallel, but with one having a cap in series with it? (There is also a louder series version, where both are in series, and one is bypassed by a cap) cheers John |
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This is one of the drawbacks of using a single pot to control more than one cap. Not only do you suffer the increased value when in Pos 2 or 4, but just switching between 1, 3 or 5 means that you have to deal with the Tone control - either leave it where it is and hope it's good, or else manipulate it to some other position in order to obtain the desired tonality. Hmmm, wasn't your original idea to avoid having to play with the tone control more than the minimum? 
One terminal per position means that you can run 5 caps, one per position, and choose them to suit your needs. No more 0.067µfd values swamping your treble frequencies. 
