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Post by newey on Sept 7, 2012 10:20:07 GMT -5
Gentlemen- I'm not going to go back through this thread and get into "who said what to whom?". Suffice it to say that several posts are venturing close to personal attacks. If one thinks that what another member has posted is wrong, one can say so (and provide an explanation as to why) without belittling the other member or engaging in ad hominem attacks. In short, everyone needs to dial this back here. "Don't make me come down there!"
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Post by lunaalta on Sept 7, 2012 15:29:38 GMT -5
I agree with asmith's point of view, though perhaps not with his way of executing it.
There is absolutely no need to be insulting when you post disagreeing with an idea. It is bad manners and distasteful.
I too became more of a lurker having suffered stupid, agressive responses to my posts and have wanted to mention the rudeness in this thread several posts ago. I am surprised that an administrator has not intervened earlier. Shame........... How on earth can you allow a member to personally insult another, for whatever reason? Don't let a bad apple spoil the barrel.
Kudos to geo for his suffering abuse in silence and continuing unphased!
I am seriously considering never coming back and removing any links I have placed to the site.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 7, 2012 19:51:02 GMT -5
I am seriously considering never coming back and removing any links I have placed to the site. After 7 years here it would be a shame to lose you. Having just wandered the length of this post I can understand why. This was allowed to go on a bit too long for my taste as well. As a moderator I apologize for missing this and not intervening earlier. Please remember that all of the admins and moderators here are volunteers with just as many distractions and obligations as normal people. We cannot be everywhere at all times. Sometimes, as in this case, it may appear as if we've left the building with Elvis. To anyone, in the future, that is either the target or observer of this type of behavior, please feel free to send a PM to any of the Admins or moderators if you feel we are not throwing the flag or blowing the whistle in a timely manner. We are, for the most part, quite human. And geo, I respect your staying power in spite of the less then reasoned responses you have endured. Now, everyone play nice. If not, and I hate to intimate this, there will be consequences. Cynical One
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Post by lunaalta on Sept 8, 2012 4:37:20 GMT -5
Cool C1, understand the position. Let the game continue!
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Post by geo on Sept 9, 2012 1:26:23 GMT -5
I'd just assumed it was the magnet vibrating in the solenoid generating the signal. (Equal and opposite reaction and all that.)
So the actual mechanism is the magnetization of the string and it's the string's field getting measured by the solenoid? I hadn't thought the magnet would induce a noticeable moment in the string. So string composition really ought to matter more than the pole piece, huh? I'll have to pay more attention to what strings I get.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 9, 2012 8:27:22 GMT -5
"Yo, geo. I'm really happy for you, Imma let you finish but reTrEaD has one of the best apologies of all time. One of the best apologies of all time!!!"I am surprised that an administrator has not intervened earlier. Shame........... I disagree. Place the shame where it belongs. On me. Early intervention just makes a board draconian. Sometime you just give to let a dick (like me) enough room to put his foot fully in his own mouth. I too became more of a lurker having suffered stupid, agressive responses to my posts and have wanted to mention the rudeness in this thread several posts ago. Then to a much lesser degree, shame on you too. If you care enough about a community, why would you lurk rather than participate? If an idea, community, or principle has any intrinsic value, don't you weaken that by running away? That seems a defeatist mindset to me. Am I wrong? I agree with asmith's point of view, though perhaps not with his way of executing it. I think asmith's post was funny. Not in "ha ha" way. In an ironic way. It serves as a mirror for me. He was quite abrasive and overbearing in the way he delivered his message. Exactly the same as the way I've been delivering mine. The initial reaction by the person that message is directed at would be to dismiss it, based on the vitriol. Regardless of content, the rhetoric overshadows the message itself. How stupid am I, to not recognize that the content of my message will be largely ignored when the person who could benefit most will just focus on the attitude that accompanies it? That's a rhetorical question. An answer wasn't expected, but feel free to answer if you like. So yeah, an apology is due. To geo and the community at large. Mea culpa.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Sept 18, 2012 23:33:04 GMT -5
OK flaming and attacks aside let's take a step back and reassess the design and the issue its supposed to address. OK you have a nice idea here and it sounds good "IN THEORY" but its just not practical enough for its application and would be too much of a PITA to wire at that, BUT!!! Let's try this instead, we all should know what a split P-bass pickup is right? Well why not try that same method in a single coil design take your six poles and split them into two groups of three. Let's say for example E A and D are - up, + down and wound clock wise, where as G B and e. Are + up, - down and wound counter clockwise your output should remain about the same "WITH" the noise reduction/cancellation desired achieved
Both me and 4real have researched and even experimented with this stuff and splitting each pole is just a serious pain to deal with plus it would require six preamps just to get the appropriate noise levels out of each pole which is heavily time consuming highly impractical, and costs way too much per pickup to build and It would be even harder to find the space for 18 preamps+ their batteries even in a strat.
I strongly suggest a little more research in the concept before attempting this. But I would suggest you try the p bass method and see if you like those results.
So no disrespect to you or your idea, but I'm saying this from personal experience in the matter, Its just not worth the time or the resources to attempt it the way your talking about.
Hope it helps
Geo you get a +1 for hanging in there while tha haters be hatin
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Post by 4real on Sept 19, 2012 8:54:52 GMT -5
I'd just assumed it was the magnet vibrating in the solenoid generating the signal. (Equal and opposite reaction and all that.) So the actual mechanism is the magnetization of the string and it's the string's field getting measured by the solenoid? I hadn't thought the magnet would induce a noticeable moment in the string. So string composition really ought to matter more than the pole piece, huh? I'll have to pay more attention to what strings I get. Well, it's been a while as the thread kind of died there, more research required perhaps...still...since it has resurfaced a little and i'd been a bit busy and keeping out of things... While wrong, it is not that far off...perhaps... The string which is ferro magnetic (ie, a metal that is 'magnetic' so not copper or aluminium, etc...but steel and the like) vibrates within a magnetic field (from the poles or other arrangment for magnetizing the 'core' of the coil). When the string vibrates within the magnetic field it effectively 'vibrates' the field which, running through teh centre of the coil, induces a current in the coil. This current is an 'analogue' of teh vibrations of the strings vibration. So...Not vibrating the actual physical magnet (you definitely do not want this) but is effectively vibrating the magnetic feild that runs through the core of the coil. Strings, well yes...you willl notice on an acoustic bronze wound string that what is really being read is the core of the string, not the wrap for instance, but there are no really super magnetic string materials, some may be a slight difference...but does this matter, if you want things 'louder', that's what the volume control on the amp is for. The pickup induces nothing, it's the string that induces the current in the coil. A pickup is a 'sensor' not a 'driver' of anything. ... As to why not have six individual coils...well it has been done commercially and DIY but if they are all joined as one, other than potentially having a noise cancelling effect if wired rwrp potentially, what is teh advantage. Any space filled with wire in the centre (not necessarily what you want anyway and could cause problems with bent strings and all that) willl be shifted to the sides between the coil, so you will not fit more on in the same space. It is consideraly harder and what is teh advantage, little if any. If the purpose was to offer some kind of stereo effect or perhaps hex thing, well perhaps. Pickup design though is an art and a science both objective and subjective as to what sounds 'best' and how to achieve one's aims. Things like the shape of the magnetic field, the depth of the pickup, width...so many variables. If one considers just one factor, how much wire. Well, to a large extent we are talking about the number of turns in the wire. The usual strategy is to use thinner wire...the currents are tiny in any pickup. But, this does not make one pickup 'better' because you ahve more turns, it might be 'louder' but the resonant frequencies will alter significantly and generally 'overwound' pickups sound muddy so you loose in 'tone' in regards to high frequency where alot of the 'detail' is...unless you want that, then one can add more. Fender's Z coils and those that were used in the G&L guitars were like the P-bass two half coils. There have been some six coil oddities and I've known people to make their own 'hex' six coil pickups by hacking the coils out of relays for instance. But these things are not simple. Remeber that 'poles' are not a necessary feature, there are 'blade' like pickups that too will alter inductance and so the fields, increasing magnetisim can increase power too, but too much and it will actually pull strings out of tune or at least dampen harmonics or certain frequencies. The 'shape' of teh magntic field can detirmine how much of a string is sampled or read by the sensor. Consider a single coil pickup like a strat, a relatively tall coil with magnetic poles so a narrow feild. Compare that with a P-90, also single coil but with metal poles (not magnets) magnetized by two magnets under with a wide shallow coil. A humbucker has two coils so is reading a wider area of string. The effect is generallly to cancel out some harmonics and be more midrange-y, as a generalization, compared to a strat coil that senses a narrow area of magnetised string. However, there are exceptions...on my tele I ahve both a traditional neck pup which is very tall and skinnier than a strat and souhds deep and jazzy while the bridge pup is an old fender wide range original. This has two shallow wide coils, similar to a p-90 in many ways, but two of them, but magnetic poles. Despite being considerably larger than a typical HB, it has a very bright jangle-y tone or 'clang' to them. But, unless one was too get more functionality, there are other ways to create a noise cancelling effect with two coils, most commonly stacked these days. Such a device would be extremely labour intensive to make and if not to function other than all as one, you'd be as well off winding a single or dual coil device. Anyway, hope that contributes something to the discussion, if it is still current...
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bowyn
Meter Reader 1st Class
That boy ain't right...
Posts: 85
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Post by bowyn on Oct 14, 2012 21:00:39 GMT -5
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Post by 4real on Oct 14, 2012 21:11:27 GMT -5
There are quite a few of these kinds of things, but I don't see much point unless you need separate outputs of a 'divided' pickup... www.ubertar.com/hexaphonic/It is a lot easier and predicatable in sound to wind one single coil for all strings if going to be used in mono, or a two coil design to noise cancel perhaps. Combining a pickup that has alternating pole magnetisim and such may also create some problems too, perhaps...
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Post by newey on Oct 14, 2012 21:15:08 GMT -5
I'm doubting that these are truly wired "out-of-phase", I'm guessing they mean they're in series and each pole is RWRP with respect to the next, IOW, hum-cancelling but in phase.
If each pole were truly OOP I'd expect the output to be extremely low.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 16, 2012 20:54:54 GMT -5
Just a thought that occurs to me on this:
Suppose you had each pole with its own coil, and each alternately reversed in coil connection and magnetic polarity - for in-phase hum cancelling.
This would mean that along a line across the strings, the magnetic flux is reversing between each string, with a null point halfway between each.
So if a string vibrates a small amount, it will have roughly constant flux around it, but if it vibrates further horizontally, the peak of movement may occur in a slighly lower flux region.
This could result in some compression of the signal and extra harmonics - to be used for good or for evil (not sure which)
Or it may be not important at all, if it is vertical movement that is more important for the output signal.
just speculating....
John
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Post by 4real on Oct 16, 2012 21:27:53 GMT -5
I'd expect the possiblility or likelihood that there would be lots of 'differences'. Likely a slight dip in volume if strings are bent between poles or out of line. In a normal pup, the six poles become much as one cohesive filed and this is not much of a noticable effect.
Another effect I would expect is that the pup would perhaps be 'brighter' for a similar formula. With a typical SC, the filed extends out to the sides to go around and to the opposite side below. In a rwrp pole set up, the fileds will take the shortest path, to the poles of the string on either side.
Another relalated aspect to this, common in HB pickups, is that the 'throw' of the field will be less than a typical SC. Instead of going up (and intersecting the strings) and around, the field will go across to the opposite poles on either side.
Unless there is a real benefit, I can't see the point in using six coils instead of one (as in a single coil) or two (as in a noise cancelling type) and certainly a device like this that has alternating N/S poles, the effect can be quite different. Now, if one designs around this, sure. But generally such things use typical pup formats rather than a 'new' format.
There are noise canceling pups like fenders z-coil p-bass or G&L versions that create effective noise cancelling. There are stacked coils that similarly can effectively create noisecanelling and with clever design, keep the field in check with side mags and other techniques.
An interesting idea and done in various ways, but a lot more work and some significant 'quirks' so, one had better have an application that really exploits that for benefit to justify that kind of work and expense and design rethinking that would be required.
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Dec 30, 2012 7:10:44 GMT -5
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