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Post by asmith on Sept 19, 2012 18:15:29 GMT -5
I play bass in a covers band with a 50s-70s classic R-n-B set list. Typical tunes involve some Motown tracks, some twelve-bars, half of the Blues Brothers soundtrack; that sort of thing. I've been borrowing others' Trace Elliot's, and it's got to stop.
I'm going to purchase a bass amp, and I'd appreciate some advice.
What sounds do I play?
I usually play N*B or N*(a little B) with the tone somewhere between 'half-way' and 'all-off.' I always play with a pick. I try for the sort of frequency spectrum as a James Jameson-esque sound most of the time and while I don't have his finger(s) or the dampening foam in a bridge cover for the "pop" I palm mute a-plenty.
On the other side of the coin, my bass is nutzed with "reverse-broadbucker" ([B+cap]*N) and "series-out-of-phase" options, both of which add more treble for tunes like I Got You (I Feel Good) and a bass solo I take in I Can't Stand The Rain.
Wattage
The most people the band will play to is 100 in a 200-sq.-foot hall (a little less than 20m2). I understand you need more wattage for a bass amp than for a guitar amp for a similar volume, can anybody recommend a value please?
Brands
I've been looking at Orange bass amps as they seem to be good value for money. Any preferred names?
The Kicker
If I'm going to spend a sizeable chunk of money on a bass amp, I'd want to play guitar through it as well. My naive rock-n-roll-reasoning tells me JTM45s were Fender Bassman rips, surely I can play my guitar through a "decent" bass amp? What's everybody's thoughts on this?
Thanks folks.
A.
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Post by newey on Sept 19, 2012 19:17:40 GMT -5
I'm certainly no expert on bass gear. I have a bass practice amp, a Traynor, which is okay, but certainly nothing to gig with. And, what's available to you will be different than the choices you would have in the US. Our member Andy, also a bass player from your corner of the orb, recommends MarkBass, but then, he's one of their endorsers.  One other bass guy around her, Cyn1, always speaks highly of Peavey Bass gear. But I can certainly tell you that you can play your guitar through a bass amp. The tone stack on most bass amps is a bit different then guitar amps, but they're still fine for guitars. I plug into my Traynor bass amp with a guitar all the time. It has a good clean tone, perhaps a bit too "sterile" sounding. But a pedal or two in front of it helps with that a lot. I used to play through a silverface Bassman pretty often back in the day. But then, Bassmans are sort of an exception, Fender probably sells more of the RI models to guitarists than to bass players. One thing you can do if you really want to use one amp for both is to get a head and run it into both a bass cab and a guitar cab, with a footswitch to select the appropriate cab. Of course, you have to mind the watts rating and Ohm load of the various speakers you would use. Your bass amp will sound much more "guitarish" through a cab with guitar speakers. The differences in speakers are more significant than the differences between the two types of amp. |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 21, 2012 10:37:40 GMT -5
I've always loved my '73 Bassman 100, although I always played it louder and harder than R&B, more Entwistle than Jamerson. From reading and a tiny bit of experience, I think the key to Jamerson sound is the flat wound strings. And a nice big tube amp.
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 21, 2012 11:31:57 GMT -5
I think I read somewhere that Jamerson never changed his strings. Ever. That might account for that bottom heavy thump that he's known for.
-lpf3
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 21, 2012 14:28:39 GMT -5
Well, this is a deep subject, and opinions vary wildly. So, here's my opinions...
I have to agree with the previous posts on the flatwound strings. Unless you're looking to be the next Billy Sheehan, the overall sound becomes more mellow, smoother and you have the added benefit of losing virtually all of the fret or finger noises that roundwounds add. All of my basses and guitars have flatwounds, so take my opinion as slightly biased after 30+ years of playing.
My personal preference has always been for heads and cabinets versus combo amps. Pick up a good 100 watt bass combo amp one time and you'll see why... I've never had a head larger than 400 watts, and normally stuck around 200 watts for smaller gigs. I know you can go much larger these days, but I never saw the justification myself. Again, YMMV.
As far as bass cabinets, I found that a 1x15" and a 2 x 10" with a horn was the perfect setup for me. IMHO this setup allows for the most versatility. You can lose the 15" cabinet for smaller gigs and this setup doubles nicely on guitar.
One thing I would suggest on a bass amp is an effects send. While this isn't as popular an option as in the past, it is a Godsend live. I run all of my modulation effects through it and with a quick flick of a knob I can mix in just enough to fit any genre or venue.
And EQ, to me, is more critical on a bass than a guitar. Most of the older SS stuff all had one build in. Depending on the venue you can create some harsh or unflattering sounds out of a bass. The EQ allows you to tailor your output to suit the venue. Create one standing wave in a venue and you'll appreciate the EQ.
And the ultimate "put your guns on the table" issue is tubes versus solid state. I would say this depends on your desired use of said amp. While I can argue that tubes do have a certain sweetness that solid state seems to miss, they also suffer from a high maintenance characteristic that I never could accept when I was gigging.
As mentioned, I do have a soft spot for Peavey gear. It's bomb proof and lasts forever. Some may not appreciate this feature over tone, but again, if I'm living off of my gig revenue I don't need any more overhead than I already have. As they are a US company I really can't speak to their price and availability across the pond
And I have always liked guitars through bass amps. Preferences vary, but I do like a dark guitar tone and a bass amp does allow a very dark tone without breaking up.
My suggestion would be to take YOUR bass out when testing amps. Setups, pickups and string gauge will all effect the final output, and what sounds like MoTown in the store on their bass may very well sound like NoTown on your bass.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by asmith on Sept 22, 2012 7:48:12 GMT -5
This is all fantastic, thank you very much.  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 22, 2012 14:56:31 GMT -5
If you really want Motown, then you must have an Ampeg B15 "fliptop" combo.  But, while I haven't priced them, they are fairly desireable vintage tube amps. The original purchase will not likely be cheap and like c1 said tubes cost money to maintain. The B115  is solid state and solidly built. It sounds darn good, and isplenty loud enough for a tiny room like you've described. If you cant be heard with this thing then your bandmates are unreasonably loud. Beat your drummer with his own sticks until he learns to settle down. This amp is also surprisingly compact and light for a combo with a 15" speaker in it. The one I messed with is lighter than a lot of similarly sized passive cabinets. It does not have the EQ which cynic mentioned and I tend to agree is a decent idea. They do make pedals for that now, though. As for playing guitar through a bass amp: Most bass amps (especially more modern SS models) are built to cover a broader frequency spectrum than most guitar amps. It should be obvious that they extend lower - hopefully at least an octave! Less obvious maybe is the fact that many modern bassists want to hear more actual treble from their instruments than most guitarists can stand. On top of that, the cabinets tend to be built to the mid range resonances which expect to hear from a guitar cab. Many of these issues can be dealt with using EQ and tone knobs, and by avoiding overdriving the amp itself. These same "problems" also mean that a bass amp is better able to reproduce the sound coming out of an amp simulator. That is, if you plug a sansamp which is trying to sound like a Marshall into a Fender, you get the sound of a Marshall through a Fender. If you plug it into a clean flat bass amp you get something much closer to a Marshall. This is what I would do if I was you. I absolutely agree with c1 about Peavey. If you were in the US I would say just go get yourself a used TNT. They were (are?) a standard for a reason, and there's usually two or three sitting in every decent music shop in the country. |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 22, 2012 15:46:38 GMT -5
Im in no way qualified to comment on bass gear.
Which will not stop me from doing so.
Our bass player (who, when he picks up a guitar, is also our best guitarist, and can play keyboards and drums pretty good too), uses an Ashdown 4x10 bass cab. Im mentioning it because its British, and not too expensive, so you might see them where you are. Although compact, its heavy though. It sounds very good. he plays it via a solid-state amp of about 200W with a grapgic eq. I dont know the brand of the amp but according to how my arms feel if I helpfully carry it out to his car, the electronics are embedded within a 4" thick block of solid lead.
John
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Post by sumgai on Sept 22, 2012 16:15:49 GMT -5
In furtherance to: ..... embedded within a 4" thick block of solid lead. I'd advise that you not worry about picking an amp/cab for how it affects your back muscles - that's why you have mates, and you only need worry about their "pint o'bitters to stones" ratio (how many beers it'll take to muffle their complaints about the weight). That leaves you to concentrate on the amp's Tone! ;D Seriously, ash hits it almost perfectly.... you don't want a Bass amp, you want a Keyboard amp. Sometimes those are described as Bass Extended Range, or words of similar import, but you get the idea. Such an amp will let you play a variety of instruments (bass, guitar, keys, etc.) through it, and yet add very little of its own tonality to Your Tone™ - usually desirable, although exceptions do exist. Also as noted, pedals with EQ can be had for a song (and a pence), freeing you from that tyranny of "I like it, but there's no EQ". Don't forget that despite the bad rap they've gotten over the years, Behringer makes some good, cost-effective gear. I've personally never had any of their stuff go haywire on me. But as the old saying goes: When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty!  HTH sumgai |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 22, 2012 16:25:17 GMT -5
Don't forget that despite the bad rap they've gotten over the years, Behringer makes some good, cost-effective gear. I've personally never had any of their stuff go haywire on me. sumgai I have! they make some reasonable gear, but when I bought an amp for my son, it had to go back straight away because it had a loud hum. When I bought PA for the band, one speaker was great, but the other had to go back due to distortion, then its relpacement was also faulty and had to go back. Finally we have two good ones and they have been great. And I had a plastic pedal with little springs and bits of metal that went 'pha-tang' as soon as i tried to insert a battery - parts never to be seen again. Also, it does a dummy spit by pushing the jack plug out halfway through a song. i dont use that pedal. John |
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Post by asmith on Sept 24, 2012 9:52:17 GMT -5
More to think about. Thanks again folks. I was googling keyboard amps when I came across Sweetwater's buying guide that stated that keyboard amps are expecting larger signals that guitar/bass amps, and as such won't have a pre-amp. Is this bullshite? And the great tube/solid state debate rages on. When I look at tube amps, I consider the following: - Cost of tube replacement
- Fiddly maintenance
- General attitude towards tubes, illustrated by our band's guitarist: "Gotta have tubes. Tubes, man. Yeah. Tubes."
The ash-recommended SansAmp stuff looks great. The only thing really keeping me considering a tube amp is the idea that I'll potentially use pedals designed to run into a tube to really crank it -- think a Rangemaster, or using an overdrive to push a tube over the edge. If I were to put together a small-gain FET preamp -- a la runoffgroove's Fetzer Valve -- at the end of my signal chain, would this get rid of this limitation? Does anyone else just despise buying things? |
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 24, 2012 10:55:37 GMT -5
A keyboard amp may not have a preamp specifically tailored for guitar or bass, but they generally do have input trim/gain as well as EQ controls. There's at least one stage in there before the power amp. I call that a pre-amp. I was actually talking about bass amps, but the line gets a bit fuzzy, and I think you could build a fine rig around a small keyboard amp. These often have some minimal mixer functionality - multiple inputs with independent controls, even sometimes XLR ins for microphones. Could be used as a PA or maybe a stage monitor in a pinch.
A solid state amp which is designed to run clean (most bass and key amps) will generally sound like poo if you hit the input to hard. Some people like poo. All of the amp modelers I have deal very well with hot inputs. I use a booster in front of my V-Amp all the time and I've found that it deals with preamp punishment more gracefully than my Vox AC4. Anything more than 2.5 or 3V peak to peak makes the real tube amp start to like fold over or something. It just kind of gives up and makes almost no sound. The amp modellers will do something similar as well, but it takes a bit more juice to get them to fart out. I've hit them with up to 7V p2p and still been able to use the sound.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 24, 2012 15:28:46 GMT -5
How about finding a Crate Powerblock on ebay? I use mine for guitar, and it has a good very clean to quite crunchy tone but I also tried it with bass and I think it would work OK. It has heaps of headroom if you keep the gain down, or quite a tube-like crunch, plus it will put 150W into an 8 Ohm cab. All in a lunch box size, with an line out and an FX loop. You need a cab of course.
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Post by newey on Sept 24, 2012 21:42:51 GMT -5
On the tube vs. SS debate, the size and weight of the newer SS bass amps are something to look at. Forget maintenance costs and all that, how about a bass head that can travel in your case?
G-K and several others make these SS micro-bass heads, the units are tiny, weigh next to nothing, and put out 250-300 watts or so, more than enough to gig with.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 25, 2012 2:53:26 GMT -5
Ace, Personally, I can live with Tone Nazi's, but there's a time/attitude thing - the louder they espouse their limited and unreasoned viewpoint, the shorter I can stand to stay in their vicinity.  Although I've never owned one, nor even had one in the shop for service, I've heard nuttin' but good about SansAmp. Probably a good value, at least for starters. PowerTech 21 also sports a good reputation for both tone and power levels versus cost. When everything has finally been written down for consideration in one of two columns (pro/con), it's all really gonna depend on you. We can only offer what our priorities were when we posted our advice, but those can change from day to day, even more often! Your priorities are personal, and like ours, can change in a heartbeat. You go into a shop planning on testing out an Ashdown valued at €800, and see over in a corner an old beat up Ampeg that's posted for €1200. No contest, you think, but you tell the clerk "what the hell, let's fire it up anyways, just for a laugh". Whoala! Suddenly you're singing Hosannahs and crying out Holy Mother of Leo, you've just mortgaged your first born son for the privilege of hauling that White Elephant outta their shop!! When you get home, your mates are all up in your face, and you reply: "But the Tone, man, just listen to that Tone!" That's the kinda change that can come over you, in your shopping experience. Don't fight it too hard, but don't give in on the first go-round, either. Sometimes, just sometimes, serendipity does strike.  On the Crate PowerBlock: John's experience with them seems to be exceptional. I had no less than four of them (two at a time, for stereo operation), and both sets were a tad noisy for my tolerance levels. Great tone, light as hell, ultra cheap, but that transistor output-stage noise was a killer for me. (Meaning it was always the same volume, it wasn't coming from the input stage before the volume controls.) Google results abound that report results about the same as my experience. Finally replaced them with something costs more and is heavier, but is dead quiet at all times. Goes to point out my priorities, eh? HTH sumgai |
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Post by asmith on Sept 25, 2012 7:49:53 GMT -5
You go into a shop planning on testing out an Ashdown valued at €800, and see over in a corner an old beat up Ampeg that's posted for €1200. I realise I'm in the wrong country ;D But seriously, thanks all again for the input. Newey, I'd actually been looking at the Gallien-Krueger MB500 and MB200 with some great interest. I'd looked at the MB Fusion too before you guys helped me overcome my valvephilia, but its tube-replacement process involves pretty much taking the amp apart, removing circuitboards etc. A definite no-no. I was also impressed that the brand's used by Flea and Tom Hamilton. |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 25, 2012 11:55:03 GMT -5
You go into a shop planning on testing out an Ashdown valued at €800, and see over in a corner an old beat up Ampeg that's posted for €1200.
I realise I'm in the wrong country ;DI just plucked numbers from the air, for comparison purposes only - I didn't go online and actually look! sumgai |
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 25, 2012 12:23:13 GMT -5
I realise I'm in the wrong country ;D I guess that all depends on what you like. If you're into Marshall, Vox, Laney, or Ashdown, you're very much in the right country. If you really want Motown, then you must have an Ampeg B15 "fliptop" combo. Ah yes, the infamous Portaflex. Looks strange but make a ton of sense. These amps breathe extremely well (cooling). Flip the top and the amp rides safely inside the cabinet. I've always liked Ampeg products, especially for bass. Great tone controls and highly efficient speakers. In some cases over 100db/w@1M. Sweetwater's buying guide that stated that keyboard amps are expecting larger signals that guitar/bass amps, and as such won't have a pre-amp. Is this bullshite? Some truth, some toro-poopoo. An amp built specifically for a keyboard won't need to have the same sensitivity as a guitar or bass amp. But many still do. And the great tube/solid state debate rages on. I'm very partial to the sound of a guitar through a small, overdriven tube amp. A bit less so with a bass. If you push a tube amp just past it's clean limit with a bass, you get a nice "grunt'. But you have to trade away too much (imho) to get there. Guitar only goes down to 82Hz (standard tuning). Not really bass, sort of midbass. Damping factor isn't nearly as important there. But at 41Hz, a bass is in the heart of the bass region. The enormous advantage SS amps have in damping factor can make quite a difference in keeping the lowest notes sounding 'tight' rather than 'loose' or 'flabby'. Another consideration is power. Above 50w, tube amps get very expensive very fast. But SS amps in the 500w and over class are still very affordable. Wattage
The most people the band will play to is 100 in a 200-sq.-foot hall (a little less than 20m2). I understand you need more wattage for a bass amp than for a guitar amp for a similar volume, can anybody recommend a value please? The human ear doesn't hear low frequencies as easily. So you start out at somewhat of a disadvantage. But as the overall volume increases, things get a bit more equal. I wouldn't look at power alone. I think you need to consider the efficiency of the speakers as being an integral part of the equation. For instance, an Ampeg 8-10 SVT cabinet will create 98dB of sound with just one watt (measured at a 1 meter distance). The power handling capacity is 850w. So it's capable of 127dB. This is downright toxic loudness. At 100w, we're talking 118dB. At 50w we're still at 115dB. That's still seriously loud. Cabinets with sensitivities under 90dB are not uncommon. At 88dB, you'd need 500w to get to that same 115dB level. The Kicker
If I'm going to spend a sizeable chunk of money on a bass amp, I'd want to play guitar through it as well. My naive rock-n-roll-reasoning tells me JTM45s were Fender Bassman rips, surely I can play my guitar through a "decent" bass amp? What's everybody's thoughts on this? The biggest differences between bass amps and guitar amps are effects (reverb, tremolo, and sometimes distortion) and the speakers. If you have a good guitar amp now, you might want to consider using it (with the effects and distortion turned off) through a proper bass cab. Just make sure the efficiency of the cab is relatively high. |
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Post by asmith on Sept 25, 2012 15:31:06 GMT -5
I just plucked numbers from the air, for comparison purposes only - I didn't go online and actually look! It was a reference to €s and £s. I'm very partial to the sound of a guitar through a small, overdriven tube amp. Right there with you. Though, recreating that sound with effects would be very acceptable to me -- hence my interest in the SansAmp modeller. Using "tube-dependent" effects like the Rangemaster with my guitar kept my interest in buying a tube-amp kindled... but if that's not really a concern any more, I'd be quite happy to go solid-state all the way. And thanks for the info RT, especially on cabs! I hadn't considered cab efficiency at all, obviously something I'll have to do if I'm going to purchase a separate head/cab. |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 26, 2012 0:22:15 GMT -5
I just plucked numbers from the air, for comparison purposes only - I didn't go online and actually look!
It was a reference to €s and £s.And here I thought my urbanity was on display quite nicely.  As to cabinets, efficiency, etc. I once had, not too far back in time, an Ampeg 410HLF. That cab had four 10" speakers, each rated for something like 125 watts at 8Ω. All told, the cab weighed in at just under 110 lbs, or 50Kg, give or take a gram. But it was ported just right, such that it could out-perform Ampeg's much revered 8-10" box by several dB, and do it all the way down to 31Hz!!! For reference, most 5-string basses go down to B, or about 30Hz, which means this box does just what we need - translate beaucoup power into beaucoup dB - all the way down to the lowest note we can generate. But Oh Gawd, was it ever a back breaker!!  I finally sold it when I figured out why my chiropractor had a standing weekly appointment for me. But until I got smart, the band and I would occasionally get our jollies by watching people in the audience toss their cookies whenever I got the urge to crank the GK RB700 up beyond 3!  ;D Those were the days..... Still and all, these days I still have in storage a Fender Bassman 200, with a speaker out of a Fender Bassman 300. Nice tone, gobs of dB's, weighs just a tad under 50 lbs., and dirt cheap! Nobody wants 'em, 'cause they're ewwww, solid state. Hehehe - it pays to ignore the "me too" crowd, and think for yourself. HTH sumgai |
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Post by gumbo on Sept 26, 2012 8:48:07 GMT -5
Weeelllll.... FWIW.. I love my '59 Bassman RI, which I use for bass, guitar & guitar synth..but that's just me, and also for the fact that I resent going out and buying yet another amp when (a) I have nowhere to put it (really!!), and (b) I would rather spend what's left of my hard-earned $$$ on other things just right now.... The problem with that is that soon (really, again!) I will have to enact my threat of the last few years and actually build a cabinet for the chassis and split the thing into a piggy-back, because my back is getting fed up with lugging the damn thing up and down a flight of stairs every time it leaves the house... I also have a tiny (!) Fender Sidekick 30 (tranny) bass amp that I can pick up with one finger (if I'm careful!) for moments when I just want to practice with the guys at low volume...and in that environment it also often gets used for guitar as well... BUT..... a whole pile of people keep taking about: (Roland) CUBE-120XL BASS (CB120XL) Compact 120-watt bass amp with eight COSM® amp models ..under 7 big bills here in Oz, and one day I might just have to look into that one more seriously...  As always, it's in the ear of the behearer... HTH, but it probably doesn't.... |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 26, 2012 15:29:14 GMT -5
As always, it's in the ear of the behearer... Reminds me of the old joke..... If you don't behear what I behear, you're gonna behear after I'm gone! |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 28, 2012 16:05:27 GMT -5
On the Crate PowerBlock: John's experience with them seems to be exceptional. I had no less than four of them (two at a time, for stereo operation), and both sets were a tad noisy for my tolerance levels. Great tone, light as hell, ultra cheap, but that transistor output-stage noise was a killer for me. (Meaning it was always the same volume, it wasn't coming from the input stage before the volume controls.) Google results abound that report results about the same as my experience. Finally replaced them with something costs more and is heavier, but is dead quiet at all times. Goes to point out my priorities, eh? HTH sumgai Slight thread diversion, but I wanted to ask more about how you were wiring these up? Mine is dead quiet (but not actually dead!) with the volume down, it has less residual poweramp noise than my 40W Marshall and 10W tranny practice amp. I use it for guitar (using its preamp), but also as a power amp for foldback or small PA, feeding straight to the power amp stage from a mixer. What I do find though is that if I want to feed direct to the poweramp stage, it needs to be fed from a source with little or no noise after its volume control, such as a reasonable mixer, since without a volume control on the PB poweramp input, any noise introduced to it will be amplified to the full extent of the laws of electronics. So how did you use yours? John |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 29, 2012 15:38:10 GMT -5
John, The first pair I bought to use a stereo guitar amps, coming out of my stereo effects processor box(es). Those were a tad noisy, but the noise was masked when playing. The second set was primarily for use as power amps in my synth setup. That wasn't very quiet. Then I got a mixer, figuring that this would let me add other sources, and control the overall volume to the power amps. Not worse, but no better either. Sadly, this time, when I played at practice levels, the noise was still noticible - I had to crank them pretty good to mask it. I even disconnected the pre-amp by inserting a dummy plug, thus ensuring that the only signal to the power amp was whatever came from the mixer. Sigh. Those units were replaced with a QSC 850, and wouldn't you know it, everything became quieter than a dead doornail - I almost couldn't believe it myownself. So I traded lightweight and low cost for tone and reliability. Nowadays the QSC (and the JBL JRX115's) serve as my downstairs amp system for my iPod. Sorta like using an elephant gun to kill a housefly..... HTH sumgai |
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