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Post by ozboomer on Sept 24, 2012 21:42:11 GMT -5
...and I guess, they make most people crazy. I'm gradually working my way around to learning most things for maintaining and setting-up my guitars.. and I have been trying to get the "vintage tremolo" units working on all my Strats... and while I've had some success, I've come up against a bit of a "vicious circle"... I've tried floating the trem bridge (to only 1/8" off the body, as per Fender spec) and more-or-less flush with the body... but I find that the whammy bar is still difficult to move. NOTE that I'm only looking at *dipping* the tone -- I'm not overly fussed about 'symmetric vibrato'(!) I tried backing-off (unscrewing) the screws through the claw into the body in the tremolo cavity... and after re-tuning there's no perceptible change in the position of the bridge. With no change observed, I'm guessing the springs in the cavity are just too strong... so I removed a spring and re-tuned... and the bridge is too high off the body (so not enough tension from the springs). I tried to screw the claw back down (into the body, thereby increasing tension).. and the bridge is still too far up in the air. So I put the 3rd spring back... and o'course, the bridge is flat on the body. I then went through the process of unscrewing the claw screws again.. and the bridge barely moves off the body... ...and it's all STILL too hard to move. This exercise has been done on my 2005 Squier Bullet Strat. I went through a similar process on my Squier Affinity Strat and I could get it to work close-enough to how I want by only using 2 springs... but d'you think the Bullet will behave?! I guess I'm asking if there are different grades of spring that you can use... or what the effects of placing the springs differently in the tremolo cavity might be. In all my experiments, I've had the springs at the 'widest' positions in the tremolo block and similarly, on the widest "anchor points" on the claw. For a given spring, I understand that if the end of the spring is at the widest points on the block, moving the spring more towards the middle of the claw will reduce the tension some minor amount (who remembers vectors!?)... Although I've had a look at a few threads in here, I wonder if there are any clues for how to get these crazy trem bridges to work right!? Thanks. John |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Sept 25, 2012 22:09:48 GMT -5
Vintage, so 6 hole? Six screws in front, holding it down. Yer sposed to only have the 2 outer screws doing anything and those are going to be a little loose. My inner 4 screws are maybe an 1/8inch from touching anything. Ok, maybe a 1/16, but anyway, theyre for show, i guess. With 2 springs, it should be nice and easy to whammy, but even with the claw tightened up all the way, it will sit a little high off the deck. If you have enough turns on your saddles, it will work though. With 3 springs it will still be easy to wiggle and you'll be able to pull the bridge down closer to the deck. I've got mine at about 1/16 which gives me all the up whammy i'll ever need. I actually have 4 in there now, cuz i have this little device, but mine's in the middle. I just loosened up the claw more and it still whammys, no problem.  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 26, 2012 8:37:09 GMT -5
Disclaimer: I don't know squat about trems. I'm just reasoning this out. Take the following with a liberal dose of NaCl. ...and I guess, they make most people crazy. Mine is easy to maintain and gives me no problems at all. But I'm using 5 springs and everything is reefed down tight. And the arm is collecting dust somewhere.  NOTE that I'm only looking at *dipping* the tone -- I'm not overly fussed about 'symmetric vibrato'(!) This seems like it would be relatively easy to work with and fairly stable. Trying to get a full 'float' on a standard Fender trem probably wouldn't yield good stability. So the target here is to have the trem assembly free to move, with just a bit more tension on the springs than you have on the strings. Vintage, so 6 hole? Six screws in front, holding it down. Yer sposed to only have the 2 outer screws doing anything and those are going to be a little loose. My inner 4 screws are maybe an 1/8inch from touching anything. Ok, maybe a 1/16, but anyway, theyre for show, i guess. This seems important to allow for movement. But since Oz's bridge sits high when using only 2 springs, does that mean he already has the screws loose enough? With no change observed, I'm guessing the springs in the cavity are just too strong... so I removed a spring and re-tuned... and the bridge is too high off the body (so not enough tension from the springs). I tried to screw the claw back down (into the body, thereby increasing tension).. and the bridge is still too far up in the air. A word of caution here. Retuning is important, as you're trying to balance the tension of the springs to the tension of the strings. But if you increase the tension of the springs when the bridge is is too high, you will bend the strings tighter when you tighten the claw screws. So be sure to retune again, after increasing the spring tension. I guess I'm asking if there are different grades of spring that you can use... or what the effects of placing the springs differently in the tremolo cavity might be. In all my experiments, I've had the springs at the 'widest' positions in the tremolo block and similarly, on the widest "anchor points" on the claw. For a given spring, I understand that if the end of the spring is at the widest points on the block, moving the spring more towards the middle of the claw will reduce the tension some minor amount (who remembers vectors!?)... Dunno if springs with different rates are available. One would think there there are. But I think you have the relationship between angle and tension backward. Having the springs straight would give you the least tension. Having them angled would stretch them farther, preloading them. So if you want more tension with just 2 springs, you should angle them. ... I think So I'd suggest something like this, for 2 springs:  If 3 springs like this gives you too much tension: 
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Post by 4real on Sept 27, 2012 4:30:18 GMT -5
I've messed with traditional strat trems a lot on my guitars and there are all kinds of tricks with them. On my squier strat, I have a two point trem which is set up to be fully floating, as per jeff beck style. I use 10-46 strings and two springs and a tremsetter in this guitar (which I don't think adds spring preasure). So, the bridge on mine and how I like it, I have it fully floating but don't use it for divbebombing, it is relatively stiff in fact for this kind of thing. img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/sexystratcurves.jpg The thing is everyone is different in what they aspire too with a trem. Yes, you can get different springs for tension and angling them is fine as well. Some like a trem to be fairly flat to the top...EVH for instance does this with a lot of pressure, often sticking a coin under teh end of teh trem so it only goes down. This allows you to drop D tuning and still keep the trem down or to stay in tune if you break a string. Floating trems though have a distinct sound. Many will enlarge the inner holes of six screw trems to function more like a two point system (I beleive that SRV liked that kind of thing). I had an idea that seemed to work of replacing the inner screws with 3mm ball bearings held down with the outer screws...if one does not mind an bit of 'drilling' one could adapt some hardened screws, such as 3mm machine bolts (used all over my strat for appearance, see the gallery). Some rivets in the wood can help prevent teh balls wearing out the wood of the holes. Seemed to work quite well in fact, but no pics or guitars set up this way around here. The trem though is an entire system to work well, particularly the head end, nuts, tuners, string trees...all kinds of things up there can be sticking points... While I have khaler trems whiuch a very solid smooth and reliable, there is something really cool about the fulcrum trem and fenders styles...it just takes a bit to work out what you want and balancing everything right on your guitars. I play reasonably light with heavier strings, so don't break strings so floating is not really an issue and a floating trem can give more of a bigsby like sound...or for that shadows sound that vibrates around a note, not just flat. Kahlers can do this as they are fully floating which is why I like therm as a better 'bigsby' thing. But it's a personal thing, how you play and what kind of action and things you want from it...although high, mine are surprisingly 'stiff' and stable. (not so convinced about tremsetters, but it doesn't interfere with things or so it seems...likely time over, I'd have left that out!) |
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Post by ozboomer on Sept 27, 2012 7:36:10 GMT -5
Appreciate all the good oil, Fanx! folks.. Have been thinking a bit what's going on... and a couple of things come to mind.. * Placing the springs wide on the block seems to be a win/lose thing (conceptually, anyway). You get the increased force from the greater extension... but there'll be a component of the "pull" that's sideways, so that's a waste somehow. I don't know how many hours I distracted myself today with thinking about the resolution of the the forces, whether the extra extension of fitting to the centre of the claw was significantly different from fitting to the widest part of the claw, etc, etc... (too much garbage with h.cosΘ, etc) * As I have something pretty close going with the Affinity and its 2 springs, I might try that on the Bullet and not be too nutzo about screwing the claw right into the body(!)... I dunno.. There are such large forces running around these things I get mighty nervous about having an exploding guitar sometimes(!) All this, just so I can put the occasional dip'n'wobble in a chord  ...Pffft! John |
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Post by 4real on Sept 27, 2012 19:00:28 GMT -5
No, the springs wise has a sideways component, but is balanced by the same on teh other side spring, so it all evens out. No, it will not reduce tension a lot, get a loinger screw and you can slacken things out a lot. Most two spring things I've had have been pretty loose, so I need to tighten the claw...but everyone and every set up is different...
Well, we have gone through the 'dive bomb' reaction of anti trem stuff...the 'two camps' and all that...
Basically, if you want a trem, then you need to set it up right, if you want a great trem that will stay in tune and be reliable...roller nut, straight string pull, staggered locking tuners, roller trees or an LSR with no trees...etc...
For thost that are 'picky' consider...
Why bend a string? Why not just play the damn note further up? For expression!
Why is the vibrato on a bent note sound more natural and sweet? Because, we tend to bend and vibrato below a note, flat to pitch...
This is because a note slightly 'flat' can sound sweet, a note that vibratos slightly sharp sounds 'sour'...listen to singes and saxes and...you'll get the idea!
Ok, so without a trem, how do you vibrato 'flat'? How do you 'vibrato' a chord?
There are musical reasons that one might want to use a vibrato...and more...
Most of us play with reverb or delay, or just from a room. A vibrato offers a manual 'chorus' effect without that sea sick machine warble of a normal timed chorus 'effect'....amoungst many other subtle touches...
Of course, not for everyone and it does take a little work to achieve a reliable system, but the fender style fulcrum trem is a great system, far better than later trem systems from fender and certainly the bigsby in many ways...
If not something you 'want', well screw it down and block it, but it can be, with a bit of practice and applied well, a very expressive device, even if used in a subtle way. Really listen hard to all kinds of soloists and you will hear all kinds of articulations that involved 'falling off' a note (say, miles davis) or scooping into a note (a classic vocal or sax sound)...and on harmony, can provide a unique 'texture' compared to a lot of other instruments. It can also cover some of the guitars inherient slight intonation compromises too.
It should not be rocket science, but consider the whole system and what you want it to do and find that 'compromise' balance that will do teh job without getting in the way of things...for the right player, it can be worth it!
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Post by ozboomer on Apr 25, 2013 0:23:02 GMT -5
After much fiddling about with various techniques, I came up with (or maybe borrowed) an idea that seems to work pretty well for adjusting the tremolo... although, I haven't worried about tuning the tremolo 'coz that's not so important to me (that is, to make the G bend a minor 3rd whilst the B bends a 2nd and other such things). The main thing to achieve is to get the 1/8-inch/3 mm float on the tremolo bridge, so you can bend the pitch UP as well as DOWN. Step-by-step:- 1. Get yourself some mini PostIt notepads (they're about 1.5-inch/37mm square) 2. Take the strings off the guitar and remove the springs from the rear cavity. 3. Undo all the screws holding the bridge/tremolo in place on the front of the guitar until the bridge flops around. You have to make sure the bridge is unrestrained and can move easily... but it should sit flat on the body when the guitar is held flat. 4. Screw-up one of the screws in the bridge until the rear plate of the bridge just starts to lift a little... then back-off the screw until the rear plate sits back down on the body. Repeat this with each screw of the bridge. If you want, you can screw-down the outer screws (left side, right side) a little for a bit more stability. 5. Take one of the notepads and measure the thickness so the pad is about 1/8-inch/3 mm thick.. and place it under the rear plate on the bridge. 6. While you hold the bridge in place against the notepad on the top of the body, look at the gap between the block and the 'bottom' of the rear cavity and estimate how much thickness for a second notepad you'll need to put in that gap to keep the bridge from moving. The idea here is that we're working-out how much pad thickness is needed in the rear cavity to ensure we have the 1/8-inch/3 mm gap on the top of the guitar.
7. Get one of the strings loosely in place (through the block, over its saddle, down over the nut and fixed into the tuner)... and as you bring-up the tension on the string, let the tremolo block push against the notepad, pushing against the 'bottom' of the rear cavity. Just make a quick check that the rear plate on the bridge is still about 1/8-inch/3 mm above the body. 8. Get this first string up with a bit of tension.. and then install the other 5 strings with some decent tension... but not quite up to tune, so you can still adjust the position of the notepad in the rear cavity, if you need to. 9. Now tune the guitar, making sure the rear plate of the bridge hasn't gone too silly in how high it is above the body. If you have the right thickness of notepad between the block and the cavity wall in the rear cavity, you should still have the right gap between the rear plate of the bridge and the front surface of the body. 10. Adjust the claw and anchor screws in the rear cavity so the screws are *safely* anchored into the under-body. 11. Now install 2 springs from the tremolo block to the claw, one on each side, so you have an even tension applied to the block (again, I'm not trying to compensate for thick/thin strings, nor am I trying to 'tune' the tremolo effect). If the notepad falls out at this stage, the springs are just too strong and you'll have to try to find some less-strong springs (it CAN be done, but it's a real luck of the draw thing... Try getting some after-market springs, which often provide less tension than the Fender springs). If the notepad stays in after we install the springs, we can go on... 12. Evenly screw-down the claw screws, a couple of 1/4-turns at a time on each claw screw, until the notepad in the rear cavity falls out. If you end-up bottoming-out the claw screws, you can back them right off to that point where they were *safely* screwed in ... and add a 3rd, centrally-placed spring... and try it all again. If you have really thick strings (more like 13s or more), you might need to go to 4 or 5 springs in the rear cavity. At this point, the guitar will be closely in-tune and the tension of the rear cavity springs will balance the tension in the strings... and you *should* have a nice 'factory setting' gap between the rear plate of the bridge and the surface of the guitar. At any rate, this has worked a treat for me... but I DID end-up having to buy a few sets of cavity springs to establish a lighter-tensioned, matched pair that I could use with the 9s I was using on one of my Strats. John |
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Post by gumbo on Apr 25, 2013 3:57:04 GMT -5
Phew!!!! ....kinda glad I didn't have THAT much trouble..  My (vintage trem) Strat largely behaves itself without too much intervention...although I will say that my Bigsby-Palm-Pedal-equipped-much-modified Tele 72 Custom does have an LSR nut, roller trees and locking tuners....  ...nice to hear you seem to have finally got this one under control, OzB Regards from the West Gumbo |
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...Pffft!
