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Post by sumgai on Sept 28, 2012 12:22:56 GMT -5
Wait...did you file the frets yourself? How else do you think i got promoted to "Senior switch wirer" ? No pain no gain Pyrros, I gotta hand it to ya.... even in the middle of your angst, you still bring on the humor - good job! ;D And for the links above regarding setting up an Ibanez (which really does apply to most guitars), I think a +1 is in order. As for the physics of string vibration, well, that's not a subject easily covered in one thread of a few pages. But suffice it to say, it is all a compromise, and a lot of searching will be done before the final answer is found. Good luck! sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 15:19:18 GMT -5
sumgai thanx!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2012 8:29:58 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2012 23:53:38 GMT -5
finally i managed to clean out the low E by raising the action to 2.2 mm at 12th fret, which translates to about 3mm at 24th fret, but most importantly by putting a 0.052' string in low E. Now chords/notes in standard E tuning are very clean, and also can sound clean-ish when in drop D (just drop low E to D). In drop-D i have to strum with the pick left of the area of the neck pickup, which means right about over the 24th fret. (another ridiculous limitation of the les paul design : picking area, not much options there)
What puzzles me, is that with the 0.046' in low E, and with a nut pretty high (about 0.60mm between the bottom of low E and the top of the first fret), the low-E managed to buzz while in the open when strummed hard!
Now i will have to find a tech and ask him if all this is normal, or is it just the nature of the beast.
Therefore i see *A LOT* of setup limitations here, and so, when i said that maybe "frets" are "interested" what kind of guitar is this, maybe i said smth?
I realize here is a strat-house mainly (originally the guitarnuts site was primarily devoted to shielding single-coil guitars), and so we do not have many les-paul/SG players here (i suspect SG should be the same thing more or less), so what i experience are kind of general observations applying to any guitar scaled under 25.5 inches?
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Post by sumgai on Sept 30, 2012 2:25:35 GMT -5
pyrros, I need not go into all the gory details, but I suspect that if you were to use your normal string diameter (0.046") and raise the tension such that at open it's tuned to F#, I think your buzzing will also disappear. By providing more tension you've reduced the area traveled within the ellipse as the string vibrates, thus reducing its proximity to any of the frets during vibration. But in your case, in order to maintain an open E, you needed to go to a larger diameter, or in more exacting terms, larger mass. Also, recall that when this type of guitar was first designed and put out for sale to the public, strings were never less than 0.012" to 0.056", and those were called "lights"!! The so-called standard of the day, in 1951, was 0.013" to 0.058" or 0.060". Makes one stand back and wonder at those players, doesn't it? HTH sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2012 2:30:08 GMT -5
Sumgai thanx for the input, i saw some interesting things:
i reverted back to the 0.046' low E, cause i wanted to make some comparisons with the carvin which wears 0.010s as well and also has a small scale (carvin is 24.75'). (also the carvin has floyd rose tremolo). I saw that Carvin does not buzz on low E with slightly lower action. It sounds muddier and the string seems (visually) to definitely follow a smaller eclipse, the movement over the next fret, when fretting at 1st,2nd, so on, is much less than in the ibanez. Ibanez seems to have a much bigger eclipse, and cannot directly explain that, given that the tension on the ibby must marginally be bigger than the carvin since ibby is slightly larger scale (25').
So i thought of tailpiece. My tailpiece from the bass side clearly does not go all the way down. I tried to screw it in, but it just made the whole stud turned around in wood in a ugly manner. Didn't try any further. I'll post pics later.
Maybe floyd rose acts as some kind of suspension which make the initial size of the eclipse smaller and thus the reduced buzz?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2012 9:27:16 GMT -5
took some pics of the tail piece, at first glance it does not seem normal, what do you guys say? the bass side (upper side) is clearly off the wood and way lifted. is this normal? i mean even in the case this should be lifted, it should be done via the "legal" way, with the studs, not by simply not pushing the insert into the wood. What's going on here? I see tight-tune tailpieces over the net and they seem like : or or which in my eyes is NOT in the same situation as mine. What should i do?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2012 11:18:29 GMT -5
Just checked. The bass-side (upper-side) insert is just freely moving. The hole for this was so big/wide that it seats in the hole very loose.
Tomorrow i am calling my lawyer, since the punks who run the local Ibanez shop most probably will claim "this was designed this way".
If i do not manage to get my money back (and buy the very same guitar from Germany or the UK/US) i will have find a way to fix the problem my self. There is a substance - chemical (available in hardware stores) which fits wood into wood or similar stuff. May i should try this. As the strings just have so much tension that the tailpiece just won't stay in its place and get lifted.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 30, 2012 12:35:30 GMT -5
pyrros, Well, I think you've hit upon the answer - the 'breakover' angle of the string across the bridge saddle is insufficient to keep the string from buzzing at normal tension. That stud insert should be fully seated into the body, just like on the treble side. Not to mention, the first image you posted in this thread shows that the insert was indeed all the way down into the body - it's been working it's way loose ever since you received the guitar. Before you get to the lawyer part of your battle, you might try talking to the local people first, and depending on how they react, you might then "suggest" that the head of Ibanez Europe is gonna get a letter from you. This may or may not straighten them up, but it's worth a try. Plus, any lawyer is gonna ask you what you've already done to try for a resolution. Going as high as you can, and getting no satisfaction, that's what they want/need to hear... at that point they can swing into action and start throwing out the legal threats and such. Yes, you can use a lawyer to write the letter to the head of I.E., but that's expensive, and probably no more productive than what you can accomplish. Unless you have a good friend who's also a lawyer, then I say, let him have some fun too. Oh, and that chemical that fits wood into wood? We call that "glue". ;D HTH sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2012 12:53:57 GMT -5
Samgai thanx A LOT pyrros, Not to mention, the first image you posted in this thread shows that the insert was indeed all the way down into the body - it's been working it's way loose ever since you received the guitar. the first pic (the one with the correct bushing/insert) is not of my guitar, i found it on the net. The first pics i shot on my guitar (ever) was the ones which demonstrate the problem (insert out of the wood). Ideal thing for me would be to get my money back and then str8 buy this guitar again from somewhere else. But let's see! In the meantime, since i did my part of the fretwork, which is IMO against my goal and weakens my argument, should I just go and round the fret tops, then polish them to look good? I know it is called cheating, but it is much better than the fact that they ignored me royally when i wrote them about the buzz. I even have the email I sent.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 30, 2012 15:12:12 GMT -5
pyrros, I would attempt to restore the look and appearance of the guitar to the condition in which you received it. If that means "correcting" the work you did, so be it. But the right thing to do is to warn them that you attempted 'small fixes' in trying to eliminate the buzz yourself, before coming back to them. If they ask, just say that you polished the frets, thinking that there might be some rough spots causing the buzz. IMO, if you let them know up front that you tried the small stuff first, before coming back to them, then you aren't "cheating" - you've done your duty as a customer. Now it's their turn to do their duty as a retailer/agent of Ibanez. Who, by the way, did not earn their reputation as a top guitar maker by accident. They take things like this seriously. You have a lot of clout in your hands, should you need it. Good luck! sumgai p.s. I didn't re-read that first post, I only glanced at the image - sorry 'bout the confusion.
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Post by 4real on Sept 30, 2012 21:25:09 GMT -5
Ah yes...not the frets at all but the tailpiece...not enough breakover so the bridge is acting a bit like a sitars...hmmm.
It might be something in the design of the 'tight bridge' thing that makes this suseptable, it can be fixed I am sure but the bushing is pulling out of the hole and perhaps turned with the adjustment so that the groves in it have opened the hole up a bit to make it over sized.
A fix would not be hard, but if it can go back, they do deserve it for bad service and such as you suggest. If not, glue etc will likely make it tight again and solve the problem.
Service is not what it should be, especially in tought economic times...unless there are other factors. I've been looking a t a few gutiars lately and surprised at how many higher end guitars have not been set up to play nice resulting in no sale or even going off a 'brand choice' because ithe action was out of wack and they could not be properly assessed in this kind of condition.
best of luck with that...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 1:49:39 GMT -5
Hello,
just tried the aluminum self-adhesive tape, made a round over the bushing and then inserted it by hand into its hole. However, still, i noticed some it pops out by the tension of the strings, which is indeed too high, around 50-60 Kgr total, roughly 25-30 kgr per bushing.
As far as the sound is concerned, i saw definitely an improvement, i even lowered the action from the bass side, to make the results more verbose. Well, the buzz is still there (low E has 2mm action height at the 24th fret, about 1.6 at 12th fret), but the sound is fuller and sustains longer. So, when in a chord involving E string and A string, the E string note used to die much earlier (especially in drop-D) than the note on A resulting in very poor quality chords.
Anyway, now i am still at a dilema. Smth tells me to go back home in the evening and do the job right (i.e. the bushing completely in the wood, glue it down with super glue, or add an additional layer of aluminum or thread seal tape and try to make it harder to slide in the hole, maybe use a hammer to get it flat to the body. (i am thinking of covering the hammer's head with electrical tape to make it softer). So I am thinking all of these options. Super glue would get the job done but it is not reversible, so i will try to avoid this. But also something tells me to revers this (clean the bushing with aceton liquid and then put it back as it was), and contact the shop. I don't know. Contacting the shop would be a painful experience.
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Post by 4real on Oct 1, 2012 3:01:23 GMT -5
If going to do it yourself...cover all teh bases against damage to the gutiar, think through everything. These bushings are supposed to pressure fit tight. Take all the strings off, protect the face of teh gutiar against stray glue and accidents, perhaps cut some corregated cardboard out of a box. Similarly ensure the back can not be harmed and is sitting flat (not resting on the headstock or anything. Again, perhaps cardboard for the shock and books perhaps for the height and also to absorb shock.
I'd use a small block of soft wood and tap the bushing in place rather than PVC tape which will do little if anything. Less risk of slipping and hitting the top and the wood will not mark the busing finish, etc.
I'm not sure, it sounds as if the hole has been a little enlarged. Take the bushing out carefully perhaps and make a mixture of wood dust and glue perhaps (maybe super glue but possibley PVA which is water soluble) and wipe this around the sides of the hole to make it smaller and give the bushing something to bit into. When dry, then tap in the busing as described. Certainly a method I'd perhaps try. Being able to see and judge the situation, you may ahve to judge what is required there. It may well be the way this bridge has been ajusted that has widened the hole, I am not familiar with this lock bridge idea but that looks like a possibility that it has been adjusted so that the actual bushing has been 'rotated' and so drilled the hole large in the process.
You definitely want a fair breakover on the bridge, especially if you are down tuning and with thick strings, I'd say 2mm at the 24th fret is overly ambitious for those thick strings and low tuning....the do require room to move.
I had similar problems with my Kahler bridge on my tele and in fact needed to slightly shim the neck to increase the angles to stop buzzes on the high e string over the rollers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 3:34:33 GMT -5
a big thanx 4real.
btw the strings i described above are ordinary 0.010s, nothing heavier. Also as a side note, the 9 euro (over)priced 0.010s set of DR tite-fit proved to be a lemon... high E broke during a 1 note bend, and broke inside the tailpiece ... i am going back to Daddario for good.
Now, i contacted the shop by phone, they showed a little hesitation about giving me a new guitar, they said "i had to leave the guitar there" (-> no way), so i will revert the changes (with some light fret polishing) and go there tomorrow afternoon. I told them that this is a severe malfucntion and cannot be easily fixed and that this is a fundamental structural problem.
But experience shows, that most probably i will have to engage your methods (big thanx for the PVA hint), and go that route. If they take the guitar most probably they will send it to some guy to perform the same actions that we are talking about (or maybe even screw my guitar beyond that).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 4:01:51 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 4:04:08 GMT -5
or just pulling out the already aluminum-covered bushing, applying superglue to it and then gluing it in the hole as is?
Does it sound too messy? i mean involving metal busing + aluminum + super glue...
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Post by 4real on Oct 1, 2012 4:37:16 GMT -5
or just pulling out the already aluminum-covered bushing, applying superglue to it and then gluing it in the hole as is? Does it sound too messy? i mean involving metal busing + aluminum + super glue... Well, not following quite the extent of the problem (how loose is the busing in teh hole and such) perhaps. Personally I'm not too trusing of a bit of superglue and certainly 'hack' jobs with a bit of tape and such. Such busings generally 'pressure fit' into holes with the teeth cutting into the wood. Not sure that 'tape' and such would not just make it more 'slipperyu' than biting. Umm...may I ask, had you tried adjusting this before in such a way that the busing could ahve turned...it is a different kind of bridge/busing arrangment from what I gather and perhaps you turned the busing and stripped the hole. Not sure if 'superglue' is going to be that good for this application either. For instance, it will only be gluing to the plating on the metal and the surface of raw woood...compared to wood glue that tends to soak in to timber and could be used with a filler (wood drust) to make the hole smaller and tighter and to reinstall without risk of forcing glue back up that will mar the finnish. In this regard, glues like superglue are a big risk of damaging finish. But hey perhaps I am nervous, but not the way I'd do it personally. Better repair guys are about than me I am sure so perhaps see what they think.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 5:05:31 GMT -5
Umm...may I ask, had you tried adjusting this before in such a way that the busing could ahve turned...it is a different kind of bridge/busing arrangment from what I gather and perhaps you turned the busing and stripped the hole. Slightly yes, but i stopped as soon as i realized that the thing was turning inside the wood in a most scary way. Normally applying such pressure to the alen should not have resulted in the bushing turning around in the wood. It was definitely there from the start. I just felt it was designed to be this way, that's why i didn't pay much attention. It was only after the severe buzzing experience that i started suspecting this. The wood inside is so perfectly cut, that it manifests it was like that from the factory. Not sure if 'superglue' is going to be that good for this application either. For instance, it will only be gluing to the plating on the metal and the surface of raw woood...compared to wood glue that tends to soak in to timber and could be used with a filler (wood drust) to make the hole smaller and tighter and to reinstall without risk of forcing glue back up that will mar the finnish. In this regard, glues like superglue are a big risk of damaging finish. But hey perhaps I am nervous, but not the way I'd do it personally. Better repair guys are about than me I am sure so perhaps see what they think. nice hints man. but what if the hole becomes too tight? also acetylen is good to remove glue. they use it after they glue down loose frets.
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Post by 4real on Oct 1, 2012 5:32:25 GMT -5
Umm...may I ask, had you tried adjusting this before in such a way that the busing could ahve turned...it is a different kind of bridge/busing arrangment from what I gather and perhaps you turned the busing and stripped the hole. Slightly yes, but i stopped as soon as i realized that the thing was turning inside the wood in a most scary way. Normally applying such pressure to the alen should not have resulted in the bushing turning around in the wood. It was definitely there from the start. I just felt it was designed to be this way, that's why i didn't pay much attention. It was only after the severe buzzing experience that i started suspecting this. The wood inside is so perfectly cut, that it manifests it was like that from the factory. Not sure if 'superglue' is going to be that good for this application either. For instance, it will only be gluing to the plating on the metal and the surface of raw woood...compared to wood glue that tends to soak in to timber and could be used with a filler (wood drust) to make the hole smaller and tighter and to reinstall without risk of forcing glue back up that will mar the finnish. In this regard, glues like superglue are a big risk of damaging finish. But hey perhaps I am nervous, but not the way I'd do it personally. Better repair guys are about than me I am sure so perhaps see what they think. nice hints man. but what if the hole becomes too tight? also acetylen is good to remove glue. they use it after they glue down loose frets. Well, see I am not familiar with this kind of bridge, but it would seem that the allen bolt on top 'locks' it...I am not sure, but suspect that is not the height adjuster and that you may ahve inadevertenly cut the wood with the bushing which is locked on top...if that makes sense...basically without taking it apart I don't know how the system operates but that is definitely sometthing that needs to be worked out or you are likely to be repeated or made worse. Height of teh tailpeice I suspect should be as low as possible to keep the presure to the max. So yeah, work that out, I suspect the height adjustment is under teh top locking mechanisim that is designed to lock the whole and so turning the top may well turn the whole, ie the bushing will be the weak link...ie the wood is going to 'give' and strip. All these gutiars are cut with CNC machines, unlikely that it would be 'inaccurate'...hmmm Consider/study the way these bushings work. They are designed to bit into the wood with a pressure fit that forces the groves to bit into the wood to resist turning. If the wood ahd bee stripped, it is much like stripping a screw. you need to restore the hole size in such a way that the bushing can again 'bite' in this case to the wood. If taped to make it bigger...well it is only as strong as the tapes adhesive and the bite going into it. Super glue ahs few filling properties...likely at best the 'grooves' only, just the points of them, will be the only things that will 'bite. Remeber that the entire strain of the string set is pulling on these things. Anyway, that's my impression. Before working on such things it is important to know what is going on, certanly before turning things or filing away on asumptions. The reality is that this bridge is marketed as different and by name the implication is the whole set up is 'locked' so that the bushing and wood is the weak link. Though I don't know, the top screw adjustme is the 'lock' and not the height adjustment and so turning that would in fact turn teh whole assembly. I'd explore that as my suspicion is that you turned the 'lock' and so turned the whole in the hole...so to speak. Others may know more!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 5:51:14 GMT -5
You are 100% correct in that the tailpiece is designed to seat flat to the top of the body, and that there is no height adjustment mechanism. The tailpiece is meant to be screwed tight down. But the chances that i broke this are minimal. Or to put it another way, if by such slight a force this thing becomes *this* loose, then it just does not seem normal.
The other side (treble) is so tightly seated that if i used excessive force to turn it, most probably the alen would break or the locking nut would not hold the alen.
In short, if i had screwed it myself, i'd knew it!! Maybe it was somewhat better when i took it home the first time, maybe it just kept worsening, i dont know for sure.
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Post by 4real on Oct 1, 2012 6:02:27 GMT -5
Well, regardless the problem remains the same. You need to restore a tight well seated bushing...not sure that tape and superglue is the best but I can't know the extent of things. If it completely turns or so loose to pull up as the photo shows, it needs to be in tight enough not to pull out. and to do so without marking or damaging the guitar.
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Post by gumbo on Oct 1, 2012 7:48:08 GMT -5
...hmm.. ..are we approaching the need for two-pack epoxy filler here???
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 8:23:52 GMT -5
Well, regardless the problem remains the same. You need to restore a tight well seated bushing...not sure that tape and superglue is the best but I can't know the extent of things. If it completely turns or so loose to pull up as the photo shows, it needs to be in tight enough not to pull out. and to do so without marking or damaging the guitar. I am telling you, when i screw in the stud to the bushing, 2-3 turns, then even a new-born baby can lift this by its little finger. And it is so perfectly cut inside that all indications are against the theory of afterwards error. Maybe the CNC china worker was not in a good state and changed the settings of the machine? If i could pull out the steady bushing of the treble side, it would be interesting to directly measure the dimensions of the two holes, but this is infeasible right now for the obvious reasons ;D Also if the theory that i broke this was true, then it would definitely need more than 1 turn to "eat" all wood right? To the best of my knowledge, neither does the bushing act as a wood cutter, nor have i ever turned this think more than a very few degrees. In fact, the moment i realized this is moving into the wood i freaked out and stopped right there.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 8:26:00 GMT -5
...hmm.. ..are we approaching the need for two-pack epoxy filler here??? tell me more!! We have Super glue (my fast hack) VS PVA+wood mix (4real's theory) VS Epoxy filler tell me about epoxy and where it stands in comparison to commodity wood glue (=PVA).
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Post by fenderbender on Oct 1, 2012 8:37:04 GMT -5
Do not use epoxy on the bushing. What happens if you ever need to replace that in the future for some reason? The proper fix for a bad bushing is to fill the hole with an hardwood dowel and redrill for the bushing. You might have to go slightly larger than you think so the bushings knurling will have some purchase in the dowel. You also want the most direct contact with wood in the bridge area. Adding an insulating layer of epoxy ain't helping your tone out.
Your best course of action is to return the guitar as a defective unit in exchange for a new one. Ibanez should honor any defects in workmanship.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 8:49:09 GMT -5
Do not use epoxy on the bushing. What happens if you ever need to replace that in the future for some reason? The proper fix for a bad bushing is to fill the hole with an hardwood dowel and redrill for the bushing. You might have to go slightly larger than you think so the bushings knurling will have some purchase in the dowel. You also want the most direct contact with wood in the bridge area. Adding an insulating layer of epoxy ain't helping your tone out. Your best course of action is to return the guitar as a defective unit in exchange for a new one. Ibanez should honor any defects in workmanship. fenderbender Thanx, thing is i am FAR from comfortable with drilling wood. Did this to my Carvin and now has this franekstyle look : farm8.staticflickr.com/7175/6470794621_4d8f7dae23_b.jpgI am comfortable in butchering my partscaster, but the ibby no way. I just do not have this steady hand, and there always be some kid around yelling-screaming which will trigger an instant disaster.
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Post by long813 on Oct 1, 2012 9:33:01 GMT -5
Pyrros,
I may have missed your post stating this, but did you take it back to the guitar shop where you purchased it? This IS a problem that would be covered under your warranty. They should replace this no problem.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 9:38:41 GMT -5
Pyrros, I may have missed your post stating this, but did you take it back to the guitar shop where you purchased it? This IS a problem that would be covered under your warranty. They should replace this no problem. Yes I will do that.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 1, 2012 10:18:01 GMT -5
pyrros, A couple of thoughts..... I can't help but wonder what c1 is doing these days, but I'm dead certain he'd tell you NO to the superglue. It's the wrong kind, and won't hold diddly-squat for you. Two-part expoxy is the correct glue, as it will hold on to anything, and takes at least 4 hours to set up (solid to the feel of testing the joint), and somewhere up to 24 hours to fully cure (guaranteed it ain't ever gonna move again!). But that brings in fenderbender's warning - once done, never again..... or at least not by the likes of you and me, it'll take a real luthier to fix anything wrong in that area, should the repair not be good enough. fb is also correct, filling the hole with a dowel (use standard wood glue for this) and re-drilling is the proper way to fix it. What happened in your case wasn't lazyiness by the worker, it was the fact the factory didn't let the wood dry out completely before building the guitar - the wood around that hole shrank back, thus enlarging the hole. Which leads me to wonder, how long before something else like this occurs elsewhere on the guitar? Warranty. You paid for it as part of the purchase price, you might as well exercise your option with it. Besides, Ibanez deserves to know about things like this, and they need to see it first hand in order to root out the cause and prevent further occurances. Hope you can do this without getting the lawyers involved! sumgai
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