4p6t rotary and a humbucker

[ace77]

Hello fellow nuts. I have a 4p6t rotary switch that I want to wire a humbucker to. I've searched the net and found about half a dozen examples of how to do this, but they are so different from each other that I'm more confused now then I was before I started. Some have a connection on all of the throws on all of the poles, while others leave at least one throw not connected on each of the poles. I'm hoping someone can help me out.

I'd like to wire it so that the far most clockwise position (not sure if you would call this position 1 or position 6) is the standard humbucker sound (series out of phase?). Then, going counter clockwise, the signal gets progressively weaker.

I have a Jackson J50 that I may use, or I have another humbucker with no name that I may use, I haven't decided yet. How can I tell what wire is what on the no name pickup? I have a multimeter, just don't know what I have to do get this info.

One final thing, if someone can help, I'll need it in diagram form (can't read schematics!).

Thanks in advance!

[newey]

ace77-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

I'd like to wire it so that the far most clockwise position (not sure if you would call this position 1 or position 6) is the standard humbucker sound (series out of phase?). Then, going counter clockwise, the signal gets progressively weaker.

A standard HB has its coils wired in series in phase, not out of phase. If the coils are similar to each other (as in most HBs) and because they are situated right next to each other, putting the two coils in a HB OOP with each other will result in a lot of frequencies cancelling each other out, and will be a very weak signal.

I've never found that option to be much use, but if you want to do that, both coils OOP would be at the opposite end of the switch.

Parallel OOP will be weaker than series OOP.

With 6 positions, you have more positions than you have useable options. If there are to be other pickups on the guitar, an "off" position might be useful. Even if it's just the one pickup, an "off" position is good for standby, to leave a guitar plugged in onstage, ready to go at the flick of a switch (or turn of a knob in this case).

Splitting the HB to a single coil is a good option, but having both N and S individually available may not sound terribly different from each other. But since you've got 6 positions to work with, you can have both.

Using a cap between the two coils for a "half out of phase" sound is another option.

So, from 1 to 6, your options might look like this:

1) Regular series HB
2) N coil only
3) S coil only
4) Coils in parallel
5) Coils in series, half out of phase
6) Coils in series, OOP

Positions 4 and 5 might need to be switched around to get your desired decreasing output, not sure which one will be louder.

And, I'm also not sure that 4 poles are enough to do all that. I think they will be, but until we put pen to paper I'm not sure.

It really depends on what you want to do here.

[newey]

And in answer to your other question:

Identifying the color code on an unknown pickup

[asmith]

Hello, Ace, and welcome to GuitarNuts2.

So, we've got one humbucker and one switch with 6 options on it. We need to know a fair bit more about your situation first.

Oct 19, 2012 4:15:40 GMT -5 ace77 said:

I'd like to wire it so that the far most clockwise position (not sure if you would call this position 1 or position 6) is the standard humbucker sound (series out of phase?). Then, going counter clockwise, the signal gets progressively weaker.

I think it's important here to define the difference between 'sound / tone' and 'volume.' When you say "weaker," do you mean you want the sound to get progressively quieter as you turn the switch counter-clockwise, akin to a 'stepped volume control?' Or do you want to get different sounds out of your pickup as well?

If you simply want to use the control as a stepped volume control, this is an easy arrangement. Or, you could get more tones from your pickup:


Pickup combinations and their tones and sounds

A humbucker is essentially two single coils placed next to each other, which I'll refer to as a "North" coil and a "South" coil. The standard phase arrangement is for the coils to be "in phase." It's very possible for you to have them "out of phase," but the sound will be very weak and thin and nasally. Or perhaps this could be one of your options.

With a humbucker, the possible coil combinations, from loudest to quietest, are:

Signal Strength	Combination	Arbitrary Notation	Quick Description of Tone
4	North in series and in phase with South	N*S	Normal arrangement. Quite strong mid-frequencies ("mids").
3	North in parallel and in phase with South	N+S	A little quieter, a little 'brighter' -- more high frequencies.
3	North	N	Plain ol' snappy, bright single coil sound.
3	South	S	Plain ol' snappy, bright single coil sound.
2	North in series and out of phase with South	N*(-S)	Thin, "quacky." The common frequencies between each pickup -- of which there are many, as the pickups are so close to each other and produce similar sounds -- cancel each other out. However, the series arrangement produces a stronger signal than a parallel one.
1	North in parallel and out of phase with South	N+(-S)	Very thin, quacky. The parallel arrangment produces even less signal than the series one. There will be more high frequencies but it'll be very, very quiet.
0	Off	-	Nothing

The Signal Strength column simply rates the strength of the signal from the pickup against other strengths. It isn't an accurate 'scale' -- there's a huge difference between the 3 and 2 -- it's simply there to demonstrate that the parallel and single coil settings produce about the same 'volume.' I included the Arbitrary Notation column to allow us to all refer to different coil combinations in something approaching a semi-standard 'shorthand.'

While the "Out of phase" options have been included for completion's sake, in my opinion they're pretty useless.



Questions we need to get answered to help you further

• How many wires does your humbucker have?
  
• Are you interested in a volume control or a "sound selector?"
  
• If the latter, which sounds are you interested in?
  

EDIT: Ninja'd by newey! This'll teach me not to read books on the toilet.

[ashcatlt]

I would advize against the out of phase combinations. Even with a full sized humbucker the coils are so close together that you get nearly full cancellation of the string signal. It's literally more noise than string in this setting. There's not even anything particularly phasey about it.

I also question the necessity of the two different coils. You haven't told us where this thing is going. At the neck position there won't likely be much noticeable difference between the two coils. At the bridge there may be a bit more, but it will still be pretty subtle.

And IME it's a bit of a toss-up whether the two coils in parallel is enough different from the single coil to make it worth including both options.

My advice would be to install the thing with the wires extended out to somewhere accessible from outside and just swap the wires around, connecting them to each other and a cable via alligator clips. Then you can try all of the different combinations and decide which ones you actually think you'll use.

I'm really quite pleased by the way my "baritone" switches from full HB through a couple broadbucker ("half-parallel" - one coil bypassed by a cap) settings toward a single coil. I wouldn't suggest that exact scheme for you, but you might think about the broadbucker thing for a position or three in place of the less useful OoP settings.

[ace77]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Oct 19, 2012 7:43:39 GMT -5 asmith said:

Questions we need to get answered to help you further

• How many wires does your humbucker have?
  
• Are you interested in a volume control or a "sound selector?"
  
• If the latter, which sounds are you interested in?
  

The pickup has 4 colored wires and 1 bare wire. I will be adding more controls like a volume, tone, maybe a varitone, but right now I just need to know how to wire the 4p6t. As far as sounds go, I'd like 6 useful sounds, definitely standard humbucker, and the most useful other sounds anyone can come up with. I don't want an empty position on the switch. I'd like to get 6 distinct sounds.

The pickup will be in the bridge position. Actually I have two 4p6t switches and right now my plan is to use one in a guitar with 1 humbucker, and the other in a guitar with 1 humbuker and 2 single coils. Might need to wire each switch differently depending on what others suggest.

[JohnH]

My thoughts on combos from a single humbucker (not in tonal order):

The basics:

1. normal series.
2. parallel
3. Single.

If you have a covered Hb, the best single sound comes from the screw coil - if its an open Hb, then either. For a bridge pickup I prefer the active single coil to be the one nearest the neck. Single coil is a bit edgier than parallel, but parallel has the least noise of any combo. I wouldnt bother about haveing both single coil sounds, unless you run out of ideas

Extra sounds:

4 Series humbucker with one coil bypassed by about a 0.047cap. It has weight of bass from both coils but snappy treble from one coil and an interesting mid dip. On my LP, I have this in preference to a plain single coil

5 Full humbucker, all bypassed by a small cap, about 0.002uF. This lowers the resonant frequency, a bit like using a very long lead, giving a more mellow top end, but very different to just reducing tone with the tone pot

6 maybe a variation of 4 or 5

John

[ace77]

I saw somewhere on here that there is an option for half out of phase. Is it possible to do half in phase? Or would either of these options be too similiar to what JohnH suggests?

[newey]

Well, the half that isn't out is half in.

Or something.

Seriously, "half out-of-phase" isn't a real concept, it's a term we use around here (and perhaps it's used elsewhere as well, I don't know) for interposing a cap between two coils that are wired OOP. The cap limits the amount of cancellation between the two coils since they are no longer "identical coils", as the cap changes the frequency response of one of the two.

JohnH is talking about a similar thing, using a cap to "bleed off" some frequencies from one of two HB coils that are wired in phase. For the two coils of a single HB, JohnH's idea is probably more useful in the real world.

I guess, in a way, you can call JohnH's suggestion "half in phase" if you want. There are several different options there, since you can vary the size of the cap, and you can also switch which coil gets the cap treatment. For an extra switch position, you could have a different "cap bleed" option.

All the OOP options, be it series OOP ("SOOP"), parallel OOP ("POOP") or half OOP ("HOOP")- all 3 work better with the coils further apart, that is, when the coils in question inhabit separate pickups entirely- ideally, neck and bridge so they are as far apart as possible.

[ace77]

I'm considering using a varitone in the guitar as well. Would adding the caps to the 4p6t switch have a positive or negative affect on the sound when using the varitone? Or would it depend on what value caps you use?

I remember seeing a mod once where someone put a cap between the ground wire of a single coil and the guitar's ground. He said he got a sweet new sound out of it. Has anybody ever tried this? If it's a worthy sound, maybe use the unused 6th position for a coil cut with cap?

[ashcatlt]

"Ground" isn't really ground. It's not like some destination. It's the really just the other side of the loop. With passive components like these in the guitar, it doesn't much matter which comes first in a series pair.

The "cap to ground" is actually still in series with the pickup. It makes a high-pass filter. Cuts bass. Old Teles and Ricks had this on the bridge pickup from the factory. Jaguars have a switch which owners affectionately call the "Strangle" switch. I have it on a switch on my Rickenbacker. It also does the broadbucker/half-series/one coil bypassed by a cap thin, and 6 rotary switches.

[newey]

I remember seeing a mod once where someone put a cap between the ground wire of a single coil and the guitar's ground. He said he got a sweet new sound out of it. Has anybody ever tried this

Yah, ya betcha . .

Travel Guitar Mods

There are sound samples in there as well, so you can see how it sounds. Of course, different guitar, different pickup, etc. But, if I had it to do over again, I'd use a smaller cap value. I used a .033µf and it's a bit much. I wanted to be sure there was a significant effect, and I got that for sure. And the drop in output is quite noticeable.

Would adding the caps to the 4p6t switch have a positive or negative affect on the sound when using the varitone? Or would it depend on what value caps you use?

It will certainly change things. Whether that change is positive or negative is up to your ears to discern. There are also various things called "Varitone", and the particular flavor you chose will affect the results. And, cap value will make a difference, too.

But if the plan is that a cap is going to ground, and another cap from the varitone is going to ground as well, we've got 2 caps in parallel. With caps in parallel, the values simply add together. The higher the capacitance, the bigger chunk of frequencies which will be removed. Which means things are likely to get pretty muddy pretty quickly, along with a loss of a bit of output.

But, again, it depends on what you like.

[ace77]

Alright, let me jump to the guitar with H/S/S/ configuration as I'll probably have better options. I still want the 4p6t for the humbucker. What would be some useful options for the 2 single coils? I have a couple of different dpdt switches on hand (on/on and on/off/on) but can get whatever I'll need. Maybe one switch as phase, and the other as series/parallel? Perhaps there's a better option. I'll be using mini toggles as pickup selectors as I don't care for a 5-way switch.

Here are two links for a humbucker wired to a 4p6t. Can someone verify these are correct?

hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com/2012/08/wiring-diy-part-07.html

and

sd2cx1.webring.org/l/rd?ring=guitaring;id=23;url=http%3A%2F%2Falexplorer%2Enet%2Fguitar%2Fmods%2Ehtml

I'm not saying I'll use either of these, just want to see if they are correct so I can learn from them. I'm going to wait to see what you all have to say. Didn't know if either of these would be good when I also have 2 singles in the guitar.

[sumgai]

ace,

You've done some true Nutziness searching there, pardner! Those two links were immediately entered into the Links post (in the Reference sub-Forum) because of their well put-together presentations, not to mention the raw information value found on each site/page.

It's not often that I award a +1 to a newcomer, but you got've one coming - well done! ;D

Thanks.




sumgai

[ace77]

So what are some good options for the single coils in the neck and mid positions? Each has two wires coming out of them.

[ashcatlt]

You can do all the same things with two SCs as with the two coils of an HB. The OoP options will likely be more useful since the coils aren't right next to each other and cancellation will be less than total.

Then you could add a third rotary to do all the same combinations between whatever is selected on each of the others. Then you'd have all possible combinations of 4 coils available at the spin of three knobs! Course, you'll need an owner's manual...

[ace77]

There's not enough room in the body for three rotaries. What can I do with mini toggles?

[JohnH]

I reckon with two basic two position mini toggles, it should be possible to get series, paralel, single coil and part-bypassed series (ie thicker single sound)- ie, the 4 best IMO

Or with one switch, make it a two position switch to do series and parallel and let the tone knob give you single (my LP has tone knob that does this - I use it all the time).

Or use a three position on-on-on for series, single, parallel (easy, but I find 3 position toggles a bit fiddly to use)

John

[newey]

What can I do with mini toggles?

Depends on how many and what you want sound-wise.

Are you still after the single rotary for the HB and then these would be to control the single coils?

Two on-on toggles can be wired for the two single coils, so as to give each coil alone, both in series and both in parallel.

Adding a third switch could give you the OOP.

[ace77]

Nov 6, 2012 5:42:51 GMT -5 newey said:

What can I do with mini toggles?

Depends on how many and what you want sound-wise.

Are you still after the single rotary for the HB and then these would be to control the single coils?

Two on-on toggles can be wired for the two single coils, so as to give each coil alone, both in series and both in parallel.

Adding a third switch could give you the OOP.

Yeah, I still want the rotary with the humbucker. I have both on/on and on/off/on mini toggles in my parts box.

[ashcatlt]

What kind of guitar is it? I've had three rotaries in a strat. Course, their not the double-decker things that your 4P switch must be. The lugs sticking out the sides would make trouble maybe where the mid T normally goes, but I'm sure they'd fit in the other two spots. If you took everybody's advice (!!!) and gave up the nearly silent internal OoP on the HB you could get away with a single deck DP there and maybe squeeze it all in.

Oh wait! Did you want pots also?

[ace77]

It's an old Washburn G2V that's been laying around for a while. I checked the control cavity and I can fit the 4p6t, 2 pots, and maybe 4 or 5 mini toggles, and that's probably about it.

JohnH gave his thoughts on how to use 5 of the 6 positions of the 4p6t rotary. With the one left over, something came to mind. Has anyone ever tried hooking up an inducter like that used in a varitone to a pickup? Or would this create lots of noise? Just trying to fill that last position up.

[newey]

Has anyone ever tried hooking up an inducter like that used in a varitone to a pickup?

Do you mean an inductor alone, without a resistor and capacitor involved?

Without getting too technically involved here, the varitone circuit is a resistor, a capacitor (the value of which is selected by the rotary switch) and an inductor wired in series to ground. It forms a sort-of "notch filter", removing some of the midrange but leaving the highs and lows. The switch selects different caps, changing the degree of filtering.

Without a cap (we'll ignore the resistor involved for this discussion), we wouldn't get a "notch filter"- all of the frequencies in the signal your pickup is producing would be shunted through the inductor to ground. It wouldn't kill the signal entirely, since not all of the signal would go through the inductor.

This would seriously suck your tone in a "I'm playing with six wool blankets wrapped around my speaker" sort of way. Your output would also decrease.

[ace77]

I'm still thinking about what I want to do with the 4p6t. For now, I'll concentrate on the two single coils. So using mini toggles (on/on and on/off/on), I could get series, parallel, and phase, is that right?

[newey]

ace-

So using mini toggles (on/on and on/off/on), I could get series, parallel, and phase, is that right?

Earlier, you said:

I'll be using mini toggles as pickup selectors as I don't care for a 5-way switch.

There are several options. As I think about your scheme, we need to re-evaluate here.

When you first began this thread, we were discussing using a rotary to control a single HB. I think we all assumed at that point that it was a single HB guitar.

Now it's a HSS, and that changes things- because of the usual need to be able to turn pickups on/off when you've got more than one.

Unless you're in a serious, exclusive relationship with your bridge HB, you'll probably want to date other pickups from time to time.

So, for starters, that extra position on the HB rotary? It needs to be "off", or you'd never be able to play with the SCs alone.

Same with the single coils. I was thinking along the lines of a "binary tree" switching arrangement, which uses two DPDT toggles for the two pickups, to give N / M / N + M / N * M, plus a separate on-on phase switch for one of the two pickups.

But, in a three-pickup guitar, that arrangement still leaves at least one of the SCs in operation at all times. Same with JohnH's suggestion above. So, here too, we need an "off" for the SCs, or you'd miss "hooking up" with the bridge HB alone.

You could use 4 mini-toggles, all of the DPDT On-On type: Each SC would get its own On/Off switch, another switch would do series/parallel for the pair, and a fourth would be a phase switch for the neck SC.

You might be able to get by with one less switch if you could get an On-Off-On to turn one SC off in the center, and do the series/parallel as well- I think that can be done, but I'd have to look at it. Then the other SC gets its own On/off switch, and a phase as well, so you'd have one On-Off-On and two On-Ons for a total of three.

There are other possibilities as well, but bear in mind that, without a lever switch as a selector, you need to be able to turn pickups off.

[ace77]

When you first began this thread, we were discussing using a rotary to control a single HB. I think we all assumed at that point that it was a single HB guitar.

It was/is. I have two 4p6t switches. I originally wanted a wiring diagram for use in a one humbucker guitar. But as people were responding, it sounded like some of the options might not be all that great. So, I figured start with the other guitar (H/S/S) and see how that sounds, then go back to the single hum guitar if I like the sounds. I realize that the wiring of the 4p6t may be different on the two guitars, but it would give me an idea of how it would sound.

So, for starters, that extra position on the HB rotary? It needs to be "off", or you'd never be able to play with the SCs alone.

How about a push/pull for on/off on the volume pot instead?

N / M / N + M / N * M

Could you explain this? I know N is neck and M is middle, but the + and * confuse me.

You might be able to get by with one less switch if you could get an On-Off-On to turn one SC off in the center, and do the series/parallel as well- I think that can be done, but I'd have to look at it. Then the other SC gets its own On/off switch, and a phase as well, so you'd have one On-Off-On and two On-Ons for a total of three.

So I can't use on/off/on switches for series/off/parallel for each single coil?

[newey]

So I can't use on/off/on switches for series/off/parallel for each single coil?

An open-ended question: In series/parallel with what other coil(s)?

I was envisioning one SC having a switch to a) turn that coil off in the center position, and b) put the coil in either series or parallel with the other SC. Again, I'm not sure if this can b done with an On-Off-On or not, we'd have to look at it. It might require an On-On-On (which can be wired for "off" in one position, not necessarily in the center.

I'm thinking that this arrangement might have a "dead spot" when in series mode and one SC is then turned off, Again, have to look at this closely.

Now, as far as having series/parallel switches for both SCs, I suppose the other one could be used to put the SCs (or one of them) in series/parallel with the bridge HB, but again, we'd need to look at that. You might get into a situation where you'd need a 4P switch to avoid complications and dead spots.

Parallel combos of pickups don't present as much of an issue, but series wiring requires what one of our Elder Statesman, Unklmickey, called "more housekeeping". This is because you can't simply disconnect one coil when you have two or more coils in series; doing so breaks the "series chain" and kills all output. so, every time you want to disconnect a pickup in a series arrangement, you essentially have to "reconstruct the chain" minus that one coil. This usually takes more poles to accomplish.

Now, all this talk of toggle switches for each pickup brings to mind a Brian May-style scheme- we have a variation in the schematics section that has both series and parallel options. While the original BM git used slide switches, mini-toggles could be substituted easily. You might take a look at that scheme.

the + and * confuse me.

+ for a parallel connection, * for series connections (or, alternatively, an "X", just like in math class). Electrically, the analogy to addition and multiplication isn't perfect, but the notational shorthand is useful, and we've pretty much standardized it here in the NutzHaus, as sg noted recently.

How about a push/pull for on/off on the volume pot instead?

Yes, or a separate toggle would do it, too. We haven't discussed pots for this guitar yet, but a P/P on any pot is a possibility, (subject to possible fitment issues with all the toggles, etc.).